Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

James Marsters in BtVS S2 is seemingly stronger than David Boreanaz is in BtVS S2-S3

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #21
    Originally posted by MikeB View Post
    * Look up "natural bodybuilding".

    Most of what you see in the superhero movies is not achieved naturally by the actors.
    That search brings up a lot of conflicting information at a glance and a lot of bodybuilding results that look so far from natural to me. JM and DB's physiques are both a lot more plausible and 'natural' (if we're defining natural as without the use of drugs??). I do remember once reading JM talking about the extreme exercise and dietary regime he adopted around S6 and he clearly didn't keep doing that as Spike's physique 'softened' in S7. I think JM and DB both have varying points where they look more physically fit, but both look quite 'natural' to me. As you say, achievable naturally, even if a regime was more intense at some points.

    * Buffy is canonically unconscious in "Graduation Day Part II" (B 3.22), yet SMG is holding on to David Boreanaz and using both her hand to do it. Those are facts.
    I'm not sure what the relevance of this is. I don't think it reflects on DBs strength at all as they will have had Buffy held in whatever way they thought looked best. If Buffy's arms are around DB it looks intimate still and reduces how 'harmed' she looks. Both of those could be visual 'wants' they had regardless of whether it interfered with depicting how easily or comprehensively DB was carrying SMG. This is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about in how the show's context can interfere with judging a moment/scene as a depiction of an actor's strength.

    I gave the reference points to James Marsters's and David Boreanaz's actual real-life strength.
    I've had another glance back through and apart from talking about JM working out for years before getting the role, the examples seem to be about how easily they lift the female actresses and I'm not convinced that is an accurate gauge because of the woven in elements of acting those scenes. Although I take your point that Angel fights off The Mayor, he has had further time to recover as they started to work on Buffy and that combined with the anger/panic of the moment in seeing The Mayor trying to suffocate Buffy a burst of strength isn't hard to understand. I still think how he is depicted in carrying SMG is going to be greatly affected by what they wanting to convey in the moment beyond any consideration of it as a fair representation of DB's strength to the audience.

    * I prefer the male bodies shown in the Buffyverse because they all seem natural and thus achievable naturally.
    Compared to the uber built up, mammoth muscles some body building gets to I really agree. But then I generally prefer lean physiques to larger ones.

    Comment


    • #22
      ALL CAUGHT UP


      All said regarding writers, producers, actors, directors, viewers, readers, etc. are what I remember, my opinions, etc.

      What’s said in this post/comment is what I remember, my opinions, etc.


      AtS = Angel.

      A&F = Angel & Faith

      AtF = After the Fall







      @Stoney


      * I never suggested that any actor in the Buffyverse was possibly not 'natural'.


      * AGAIN: Buffy is canonically unconscious when Angel carries her in the hospital scene in "Graduation Day Part II" (B 3.22).

      All of the arguments based on Buffy's being conscious are invalid--Buffy is not conscious.

      Canonically, Buffy's arms are limb and she's not holding on to Angel.


      * Canonically, Spike and Angel are many times stronger than normal humans. Canonically, Buffy doesn't weigh more than a normal person of her size. There's no evidence that Drusilla weights more than a normal person of her size.

      Spike and Angel would easily lift Drusilla and Buffy.


      * Essentially, all the male superhero actors shown in comic book movies since Thor didn't naturally achieve their bodies.

      Classic men's physique is almost all not natural. You don't need to be a 'mass monster' to be not natural.


      * James Marsters himself already had a foundation and previous work out experience and thus the cellular structure before "School Hard" (B 2.03). He likely worked out for "The Harsh Light of Day" (B 4.03). He has significant more lean muscle mass in "Out of My Mind" (B 5.04) and a lower body fat percentage on top of that.

      James would have had to work out for months and probably did for several months to achieve what is shown in "Gone" (B 6.11) for example.

      James has top percentage genetics to look like he does in BtVS S6.

      But he's also apparently relatively strong as well. The way he lifts Juliet Landau in "Fool For Love" (B 5.07) is also impressive.


      * I don't know. I just have a huge problem with the superhero stuff since Thor and since learning that Chris Hemsworth was clearly not natural in Thor. I remember at the time that Chris was considered 'small' in Thor and I remember considering that his body wasn't actually that impressive.

      But male actors seemingly are pressured to take PEDs and whatever to achieve the 'superhero' look. And then men in general at held to such a standard.

      Comment


      • #23
        Originally posted by MikeB View Post
        * I never suggested that any actor in the Buffyverse was possibly not 'natural'.
        I hadn't thought you had. But I think I do understand better now, from what you have said, that part of your interest in creating this thread was because quite the opposite is true and you feel BtVS gave better examples of strong male bodies that were more natural?? I just didn't know what you meant before in saying much of what is represented in pop culture is unnatural. So I think what I said that prompted this comment was probably me agreeing with you (it is hard to know for sure when you don't directly quote what you are responding to).

        What surprised me when I googled natural bodybuilding as you suggested was that it came up with a lot of results and examples of what looks very unnatural to me. Far more extreme than even the superhero look to be honest. Which is why I said it was confusing if that is supposed to be the results people are getting without performance enhancing drugs.

        It's an interesting point about the standards that men can feel they are held to because of celebrities and there is definitely unfair pressures and expectations on men too. I think JM at his most lean/toned probably was achieving something that not a lot of men can and from what he's said about the strictness of the regime he had to meet to do that it clearly wasn't something he wanted to sustain. Otherwise, I would agree that BtVS/AtS gives pretty healthy examples.

        * AGAIN: Buffy is canonically unconscious when Angel carries her in the hospital scene in "Graduation Day Part II" (B 3.22).

        All of the arguments based on Buffy's being conscious are invalid--Buffy is not conscious.

        Canonically, Buffy's arms are limb and she's not holding on to Angel.
        Please don't capitalise at me as I feel like I'm repeating myself endlessly too. Whether Buffy is canonically conscious or not the point is that the way Angel is carrying her, how she is positioned and how he is behaving are part of a performance. They are acting a scene and that will definitely be affecting what you are seeing. So judging how easily DB is carrying SMG as if there aren't any factors where he may be trying to convey something other than reality makes no sense. Again for me, this is why I see no sense in using an acted scene as an example as the context of what they are trying to convey is influencing the moment.

        * Canonically, Spike and Angel are many times stronger than normal humans. Canonically, Buffy doesn't weigh more than a normal person of her size. There's no evidence that Drusilla weights more than a normal person of her size.

        Spike and Angel would easily lift Drusilla and Buffy.
        Yes, but as you keep reiterating this isn't about the characters, and that's why using scenes from the show is somewhat confusing the discussion. I don't think it is really a 'show' related discussion. But I do think the element you raise of how the male actors in the verse offer 'achievable' physiques and how that compares against other pop culture influences and the wider point about social pressures on men is interesting.

        I remember at the time that Chris was considered 'small' in Thor and I remember considering that his body wasn't actually that impressive.
        I find the idea that Chris Hemsworth would be considered small bizarre. He seems pretty huge to me but not as overly muscled as some body building can get. I wouldn't have assumed that he took anything though, just that he puts a lot of time and effort into getting like that. It's a bit over the top to me, but that can just be subjectivity. It is the flip side of the same coin that has female actresses dieting and a serious element of what I expect is a negative aspect of being in the public eye so much and famous.

        Comment


        • #24
          ALL CAUGHT UP


          All said regarding writers, producers, actors, directors, viewers, readers, etc. are what I remember, my opinions, etc.

          What’s said in this post/comment is what I remember, my opinions, etc.


          AtS = Angel.

          A&F = Angel & Faith

          AtF = After the Fall




          * Nicholas Brendan lifts Alyson Hannigan in "Bargaining Part II" (B 6.02) without help, but it's a struggle and he's only seen taking maybe one step with her in his arms.


          EDIT: Xander carries Willow for 13 steps in "Bargaining Part II". He's not exactly struggling, but it is an effort and he's not saying lines. I'm not sure though if that's Nic carrying Alyson or Nic's twin brother. END OF EDIT.



          Originally posted by Stoney View Post

          I think I do understand better now, from what you have said, that part of your interest in creating this thread was because quite the opposite is true and you feel BtVS gave better examples of strong male bodies that were more natural??
          Yes! I wouldn't say "more natural". I don't think any of the Buffyverse men took anything to achieve their muscles and their body compositions.

          It's a huge problem that these Marvel actors especially are getting so much praise. And much of this "body transformation" stuff is achieved unnaturally.



          * It takes much longer to respond to something when their are quotes in what you are responding to. I try to avoid quoting as much as possible.

          What surprised me when I googled natural bodybuilding as you suggested was that it came up with a lot of results and examples of what looks very unnatural to me. Far more extreme than even the superhero look to be honest. Which is why I said it was confusing if that is supposed to be the results people are getting without performance enhancing drugs.
          Natural bodybuilders train for well over 10 years or so to get great results.

          Chris Hemsworth's body in Thor could be achieved by someone with peak genetics and who had been training for many years. Chris achieved his body so quickly by unnatural means.

          It's an interesting point about the standards that men can feel they are held to because of celebrities and there is definitely unfair pressures and expectations on men too.
          There used to be more pressure on women in terms of body compositions. But women can be lean by simply dieting and doing regular cardio. Even most unnatural bodybuilders don't have sub 2-digit body fat year round. And in movies and TV shows nowadays, there are things such as 'getting a pump' and/or training for one scene in a movie.

          And superhero bodies shown in movies nowadays are clearly not achieved naturally.

          I think JM at his most lean/toned probably was achieving something that not a lot of men can and from what he's said about the strictness of the regime he had to meet to do that it clearly wasn't something he wanted to sustain.
          Well, more is known about food and such nowadays and it's easier to have an outline of a six-pack nowadays than it was during BtVS S6.

          James has top-tier genetics to have what he has in BtVS S6 and even in "Out of My Mind" (B 5.04). But James was on a TV show and already had the foundation before BtVS S2 and was clearly had a few years from BtVS 4.03 to BtVS 6.11.


          * SMG in "Graduation Day Part II" (B 3.22) is holding on to Angel with both are arms. That's done because David couldn't lift her on her own. Drusilla's arm in "Becoming Part II" (B 2.22) isn't actually around Spike's neck when James Marsters is casually carrying Juliet Landau and speaking lines and such.


          I don't think it is really a 'show' related discussion. But I do think the element you raise of how the male actors in the verse offer 'achievable' physiques and how that compares against other pop culture influences and the wider point about social pressures on men is interesting.
          Well, I mean the actors look like the actors.


          * Chris Hemsworth got bigger after Thor and his increases are all partly do to being unnatural.

          Do you remember what Chris Hemsworth looks like in Cabin in the Woods? Going from that to his body in Thor is impossible naturally.

          It is the flip side of the same coin that has female actresses dieting and a serious element of what I expect is a negative aspect of being in the public eye so much and famous.
          Dieting and doing cardio isn't at all comparable to having to get PEDs and such.
          Last edited by MikeB; 22-04-21, 07:08 PM.

          Comment


          • #25
            Originally posted by MikeB View Post
            ALL CAUGHT UP


            All said regarding writers, producers, actors, directors, viewers, readers, etc. are what I remember, my opinions, etc.

            What’s said in this post/comment is what I remember, my opinions, etc.


            AtS = Angel.

            A&F = Angel & Faith

            AtF = After the Fall




            * Nicholas Brendan lifts Alyson Hannigan in "Bargaining Part II" (B 6.02) without help, but it's a struggle and he's only seen taking maybe one step with her in his arms.


            EDIT: Xander carries Willow for 13 steps in "Bargaining Part II". He's not exactly struggling, but it is an effort and he's not saying lines. I'm not sure though if that's Nic carrying Alyson or Nic's twin brother. END OF EDIT.




            Yes! I wouldn't say "more natural". I don't think any of the Buffyverse men took anything to achieve their muscles and their body compositions.

            It's a huge problem that these Marvel actors especially are getting so much praise. And much of this "body transformation" stuff is achieved unnaturally.



            * It takes much longer to respond to something when their are quotes in what you are responding to. I try to avoid quoting as much as possible.

            Natural bodybuilders train for well over 10 years or so to get great results.

            Chris Hemsworth's body in Thor could be achieved by someone with peak genetics and who had been training for many years. Chris achieved his body so quickly by unnatural means.

            There used to be more pressure on women in terms of body compositions. But women can be lean by simply dieting and doing regular cardio. Even most unnatural bodybuilders don't have sub 2-digit body fat year round. And in movies and TV shows nowadays, there are things such as 'getting a pump' and/or training for one scene in a movie.

            And superhero bodies shown in movies nowadays are clearly not achieved naturally.

            Well, more is known about food and such nowadays and it's easier to have an outline of a six-pack nowadays than it was during BtVS S6.

            James has top-tier genetics to have what he has in BtVS S6 and even in "Out of My Mind" (B 5.04). But James was on a TV show and already had the foundation before BtVS S2 and was clearly had a few years from BtVS 4.03 to BtVS 6.11.


            * SMG in "Graduation Day Part II" (B 3.22) is holding on to Angel with both are arms. That's done because David couldn't lift her on her own. Drusilla's arm in "Becoming Part II" (B 2.22) isn't actually around Spike's neck when James Marsters is casually carrying Juliet Landau and speaking lines and such.


            Well, I mean the actors look like the actors.


            * Chris Hemsworth got bigger after Thor and his increases are all partly do to being unnatural.

            Do you remember what Chris Hemsworth looks like in Cabin in the Woods? Going from that to his body in Thor is impossible naturally.

            Dieting and doing cardio isn't at all comparable to having to get PEDs and such.
            Nick Brendan was a well known gym nut and Weight guy. He was so tonned , he was actually asked to stop working out by the shows creators. So the idea he would struggle is a bit mad.
            Maybe ease off this thread for a bit, chill, have some fun, go play with your Spike action figure because this thread isn't working

            Comment


            • Stoney
              Stoney commented
              Editing a comment
              Please stop with the mockery and just present your differing point of view.

          • #26
            Originally posted by MikeB View Post
            I don't think any of the Buffyverse men took anything to achieve their muscles and their body compositions.
            Well we know that JM took on what he saw as a really intense regime around S6 and must surely have worked out plenty. Although you may have meant 'took anything' as in performance enhancing drugs, in which case I agree there is no reason to believe any of them did.

            * It takes much longer to respond to something when their are quotes in what you are responding to. I try to avoid quoting as much as possible.
            The quoting makes it easier to read the flow of conversation though. So I really appreciate you using them, thank you.

            * SMG in "Graduation Day Part II" (B 3.22) is holding on to Angel with both are arms. That's done because David couldn't lift her on her own. Drusilla's arm in "Becoming Part II" (B 2.22) isn't actually around Spike's neck when James Marsters is casually carrying Juliet Landau and speaking lines and such.
            I see your point that him struggling to carry her could have led to her having her arms around him but I also think it could have been a visual choice to show trust and intimacy to try to steer the audience to view what just happened (in Angel feeding from Buffy) was with her consent and wish to make him well. If she'd been limp and not intimately holding him back it carries a different message. I appreciate that she is canonically unconscious, but the visual of how they are presented together will have been something I believe they would have considered in the directing of that scene. Beyond any issues of whether DB could carry SMG easily. Unless of course they stated that is why, I just think the context of the show makes it questionable why her arms are around him.

            * Chris Hemsworth got bigger after Thor and his increases are all partly do to being unnatural.

            Do you remember what Chris Hemsworth looks like in Cabin in the Woods? Going from that to his body in Thor is impossible naturally.
            I only watched Cabin in the Woods once and so don't remember him in it. I just googled and the images of him in that he looks pretty ripped to me. I can see that he does look more built up in Thor but I don't know what the time between the filming of the two was and how realistic that difference was (although I think they were released in the same year).

            Originally posted by BtVS fan View Post
            Nick Brendan was a well known gym nut and Weight guy. He was so tonned , he was actually asked to stop working out by the shows creators. So the idea he would struggle is a bit mad.
            Interesting NB was known to be into weights and attending the gym. Having just watched a reaction to Pangs I think he looked pretty toned in that. I do think he 'softened' some in the later seasons and seemed to fill out more, but he always looked fairly solid/strong to me.

            Comment


            • #27
              I'm afraid I just don't buy Nicks "They told me to stop working out" bit? I've never heard that from any other sources and when it comes down to it why would they do that when all the cast are meant to look above average? To be honest I suspect it may more likely be thats when his alcoholism kicked in and he found it difficult to maintain his looks.

              Comment


              • #28
                Originally posted by Silver1 View Post
                I'm afraid I just don't buy Nicks "They told me to stop working out" bit? I've never heard that from any other sources and when it comes down to it why would they do that when all the cast are meant to look above average? To be honest I suspect it may more likely be thats when his alcoholism kicked in and he found it difficult to maintain his looks.
                It could be that you're right, but wasn't Xander supposed to be the average guy and the not 'super' friend? It makes sense to me that they would say he should stop getting increasingly muscle-y.

                Comment


                • #29
                  Originally posted by Silver1 View Post
                  I'm afraid I just don't buy Nicks "They told me to stop working out" bit? I've never heard that from any other sources and when it comes down to it why would they do that when all the cast are meant to look above average? To be honest I suspect it may more likely be thats when his alcoholism kicked in and he found it difficult to maintain his looks.
                  You can see Nick Brendon showing off his six pack in the Replacement so he definitely was working out then. Joss Whedon always admitted he was to good looking for the role of Xander.

                  Comment


                  • #30
                    Originally posted by Silver1 View Post
                    I'm afraid I just don't buy Nicks "They told me to stop working out" bit? I've never heard that from any other sources and when it comes down to it why would they do that when all the cast are meant to look above average? To be honest I suspect it may more likely be thats when his alcoholism kicked in and he found it difficult to maintain his looks.
                    Yeah I don't want to call him a liar and it's possible they did tell him that at some point, but it doesn't make a lot of sense when you consider that they actually showcase his attractiveness on several occasions (Go Fish, HLOD, Pangs). Not to mention that they would dress him in those oversized pattern shirts in early seasons that were effective in hiding how fit he was, and that's why the Go Fish scene is shown as such an omg moment. I don't see any reason why they wouldn't keep on doing that.
                    Add to all that the way that the writers were most likely poking fun at his weight gain in S6 (not to mention his self-admitted alcohol issues), and my guess is they just went with whatever Nick was doing. But again, who knows. They might have mentioned it at some point without it being of paramount importance.
                    What a challenge, honesty
                    What a struggle to learn to speak
                    Who would've thought that pretending was easier

                    Comment


                    • #31
                      ALL CAUGHT UP


                      All said regarding writers, producers, actors, directors, viewers, readers, etc. are what I remember, my opinions, etc.

                      What’s said in this post/comment is what I remember, my opinions, etc.


                      AtS = Angel.

                      A&F = Angel & Faith

                      AtF = After the Fall





                      @BtVS fan


                      * In terms of body composition, James Marsters had the best men’s physique of anyone in the Buffyverse. But he also apparently was actually strong.

                      Lean muscle tissue is just that. You aren’t actually ‘bigger’ if you have a bunch of water weight and a bunch of fat. You simply weigh more.


                      _________________________________________


                      * Nicholas Brendan doesn’t even have a slight outline of a six-pack in “Go Fish” (B 2.20) and in “The Replacement” (B 5.03).




                      @Stoney

                      * Quoting makes it take much longer to respond to posts—sometimes many times longer.


                      * There is no reason for SMG to be holding on to David Boreanaz when Buffy is unconscious outside of David’s needing help to lift her. And it simply looks bad and sloppy.

                      I’m not even sure if there’s an excuse of David’s doing multiple takes and thus was simply too worn out to carry SMG.


                      * “Ripped” in terms of body building or even 'working out' literally refers to seeing striations and such in the muscles. Chris Hemsworth to my knowledge has never been “ripped”.

                      “Cut” refers to having a deep six-pack. Even James Marsters even in “Gone” (B 6.11) is arguably not "cut”. He has a somewhat bicep vein thing, but he’s almost certainly not single-digit body fat percentage.


                      * In terms of males in the Buffyverse, I don’t consider anyone but James Marsters and maybe Marc Blucas were “toned” and including Marc is really stretching it. We hadn't seen D.B. Woodside shirtless; so, I cannot include him.

                      The females have Juliet Landau, as she has actual lean muscle tissue. I’m not sure the other women had muscle. They were slender and that includes Alyson Hannigan in “Halloween” (B 2.06).


                      ________________________________________


                      * Xander is a monster-fighter: he’s not a “average guy”.
                      Last edited by MikeB; 23-04-21, 01:05 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #32
                        Originally posted by MikeB View Post
                        * Quoting makes it take much longer to respond to posts—sometimes many times longer.
                        I don't see why. It is simple enough to click the " button in the tool bar or type the coding [quote] around the text you are replying to, after using the 'quote' link under a post. Clicking several 'quotes' and then clicking the Post Reply button in the top left will add them all to your text box to edit/reply to. Whatever method, it just makes reading your replies and understanding what you are replying to easier for everyone else to follow. You don't have to do it of course, but it does make it impossible to follow what you are referring to quite often.

                        * There is no reason for SMG to be holding on to David Boreanaz when Buffy is unconscious outside of David’s needing help to lift her. And it simply looks bad and sloppy.
                        Well we'll have to agree to disagree because I think it shows trust and intimacy for her to be holding him like that and I can see why they would have wanted to emphasise the closeness between them in a positive way after he's just bitten her and she's being rushed to hospital. So I can totally understand why the direction may have been for them to be like that other than because he needs help to lift her. I might be wrong, but I don't think we can say for definite that I am.

                        * “Ripped” in terms of body building or even 'working out' literally refers to seeing striations and such in the muscles. Chris Hemsworth to my knowledge has never been “ripped”.
                        My understanding and use of the term is just to mean has high muscle definition, as per this online dictionary. I appreciate that might not be correct in proper terminology of body building but I think in casual use that's what a lot of people would understand it to mean. I suppose what is meant be 'high definition' is possibly subjective and when you want to get into the percentage of body fat a lot more technical in what would/wouldn't be considered applicable. How someone involved in body building would use terminology and the casual layperson no doubt differs too.

                        * Xander is a monster-fighter: he’s not a “average guy”.
                        I assume this is still directed at me. I wasn't saying 'average guy' in any way to dismiss Xander's contribution to the team. I was saying it in terms of him not having super strength or additional abilities like the magic that Willow comes to use. He's got a lot of great above average qualities but that doesn't mean that he wasn't included as a 'normal' if you like, 'average' guy who has become involved in the supernatural world. It isn't a criticism, just a point of his deliberate separation from those super powered in one way or another and a lot of his issues and insecurities going through the series were based on his feeling of inadequacy because of this. But I think he came to see worth and value in what he offered and how he differed from the others. So he can be used to fit 'average guy' and be shown to excel at things and be a valuable contributor to the team too.

                        Comment


                        • #33
                          Originally posted by Stoney View Post

                          It could be that you're right, but wasn't Xander supposed to be the average guy and the not 'super' friend? It makes sense to me that they would say he should stop getting increasingly muscle-y.
                          Apart from Buffy and her Vamps, the entire cast is meant to be 'ordinary', but they're obviously not. Same way they're played by actors who are miles older then their characters are meant to be. I mean 18 year old's who look going on 30. The entire cast was chosen not just for their acting talent but their looks.

                          Mr Brendon is a very unreliable source for anything to do with his character imo.

                          Comment

                          Working...
                          X