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James Marsters in BtVS S2 is seemingly stronger than David Boreanaz is in BtVS S2-S3

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  • James Marsters in BtVS S2 is seemingly stronger than David Boreanaz is in BtVS S2-S3

    All said regarding writers, producers, actors, directors, viewers, readers, etc. are what I remember, my opinions, etc.

    What’s said in this post/comment is what I remember, my opinions, etc.


    AtS = Angel.

    A&F = Angel & Faith

    AtF = After the Fall






    * James Marsters is struggling a bit; nevertheless, he lifts, carries, and fast walks with Juliet Landau in his arms in "What's My Line Part II" (B 2.10) and she's not supporting herself at all on him.

    Juliet Landau is likely heavier than Sarah Michelle Gellar by at least 10 lbs. Juliet is at least a few inches taller than SMG; Juliet isn't as thin as SMG; and Juliet works out and has muscle tone in BtVS S2 and after.

    I don't recall David Boreanaz ever carrying SMG without hers helping by at least partly supporting herself on him.

    SMG is literally supporting herself on David with both her arms in "Graduation Day Part II" (B 3.22) when he's carrying her in the hospital--Buffy is actually unconscious and David is struggling a little to carry her.


    * There's generally talk and discussion about James being 'skinny' or not as muscular or whatever as David. But a lot of David's size in BtVS and AtS is because of fat.

    Size and strength aren't the same and being able to carry Juliet Landau is actually impressive given she probably weighted over 110 lbs--meaning James Marsters could curl over 110 lbs with a curl bar.


    * I always found it odd that in the commentary for "What's My Line Part II" (B 2.10) that it had to be mentioned that Juliet Landau wasn't strong enough to carry James Marsters as she does at the end of "What's My Line Part II" as if that had to be stated. Juliet would be doing what would essentially be a very easy strict curl for her and then easily walking with James a ways. If she could have done that without help, she probably could have been the world-record holder for the strict curl at the time and would be one of the strongest people in the world at the time.

    EDIT: Actually Juliet using only one hand lifts James clear off the ground; if she could do that without help, she might simply be one of the strongest people in the world at the time; that would like hers lifting--with eventually a straight arm--an around 165 lb dumbbell or kettle-bell high over her head.
    Last edited by MikeB; 18-04-21, 09:24 AM.

  • #2
    I sometimes have to question your sanity Mike.
    Spike you say is stronger because JM lifted Juliet Landau up
    Leaving aside the obvious that DB towers over JM and could probably bounce him around the Car park in real life if he wanted to, You're actually calling David Borenaz fat

    Also SMG is 5/4 Im sure DB could pick her up if he wanted to.

    As for in character, in Lovers Walk Spike goes to punch Angel and Angel grabs it and holds Spike. The inference being Angel is stronger.
    In In the Dark Spike attacks Angel with a 2by4 and gets the crap kicked out of him.
    Spike has always shown to be inferior to Angel

    Comment


    • #3
      ALL CAUGHT UP

      All said regarding writers, producers, actors, directors, viewers, readers, etc. are what I remember, my opinions, etc.


      What’s said in this post/comment is what I remember, my opinions, etc.


      AtS = Angel.

      A&F = Angel & Faith

      AtF = After the Fall




      Originally posted by BtVS fan View Post
      Spike you say is stronger because JM lifted Juliet Landau up
      Leaving aside the obvious that DB towers over JM and could probably bounce him around the Car park in real life if he wanted to, You're actually calling David Borenaz fat

      Also SMG is 5/4 Im sure DB could pick her up if he wanted to.
      Arnold Schwarzenegger himself stated that Frank Columbo was stronger than he was. Height and bulk doesn't automatically make one stronger than another.

      Bodybuilding and power-lifting aren't the same things.

      David Boreanaz in BtVS and AtS I don't recall ever even having an outline of a 6-pack with down-lighting. Much of his 'bulk' is fat and not lean muscle tissue.

      Juliet Landau almost certainly weighs more than Sarah Michelle Gellar and James Marsters much easier lifted and carried Juliet than David lifted and carried SMG.

      I gave the example of "Graduation Day Part II" (B 3.22). Buffy Summers is canonically unconscious when Angel is carrying her in the hospital; however, SMG is supporting herself on David with both her arms.

      Juliet Landau has one arm around James when he's spinning her in "What's My Line Part I" (B 2.09); however, he's not struggling to carry and spin her.


      * Tom Welling aka Clark Kent in early Smallville is seen carrying Kristen Kreik (sp?) aka Lana Lang without any support from her; but, later on, we see her at least partly supporting herself on him.




      * The Spike vs. Angel stuff isn't the thread topic. I have this thread: https://www.buffyforums.net/forum/jo...e-ptb-wr-h-etc for such discussion and debate.



      EDIT: In 9th grade when I was 13 years old or whatever, I could curl with 45 lbs dumbbells and I could do a 165 lb incline bench press. And I didn't work out outside of P.E. (Physical Education).

      I don't remember how much I could curl with a curl bar. I don't remember what I could bench press, except that it was obviously more than 165 lbs.

      And I was around 135 lbs at the time.
      Last edited by MikeB; 18-04-21, 11:36 AM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by BtVS fan View Post
        I sometimes have to question your sanity Mike.
        Spike you say is stronger because JM lifted Juliet Landau up
        Leaving aside the obvious that DB towers over JM and could probably bounce him around the Car park in real life if he wanted to, You're actually calling David Borenaz fat

        Also SMG is 5/4 Im sure DB could pick her up if he wanted to.

        As for in character, in Lovers Walk Spike goes to punch Angel and Angel grabs it and holds Spike. The inference being Angel is stronger.
        In In the Dark Spike attacks Angel with a 2by4 and gets the crap kicked out of him.
        Spike has always shown to be inferior to Angel
        I'm assuming you haven't seen the fight in Destiny.

        Anyway, I always thought that Spike intended to lose in In The Dark. How else would he goad Angel into a righteous fury, so that he could lead him into a trap?

        DB did have a weight gain in season five because he was waiting on knee surgery. Other than that, I'd say he's pretty damn muscular. Really, really damn muscular....sigh.
        Can we agree that the writers made everyone do and say everything with a thought to getting good ratings and being renewed. This includes everything we love as well as everything we hate.

        Comment


        • #5
          ALL CAUGHT UP

          All said regarding writers, producers, actors, directors, viewers, readers, etc. are what I remember, my opinions, etc.


          What’s said in this post/comment is what I remember, my opinions, etc.


          AtS = Angel.

          A&F = Angel & Faith

          AtF = After the Fall




          Originally posted by bespangeled View Post

          DB did have a weight gain in season five because he was waiting on knee surgery. Other than that, I'd say he's pretty damn muscular. Really, really damn muscular....sigh.
          I never suggested that David Boreanaz isn't muscular; I simply stated that much of his bulk is fat.

          And, again, this isn't a Spike vs. Angel thread.

          Comment


          • #6
            The thread appears to be directly comparing the characters' strength, so I'm not sure how comparing them isn't in keeping with the thread topic. If the idea is to compare the actors' strength then we can't use examples from within the show as being reliably informative as they were portraying the characters at those points.

            And on that front, there is always story need threaded into how impressive or not the characters are shown to be. Angel is struggling after having been poisoned to the extent to which he nearly died when carrying Buffy in Graduation Day and would likely be feeling somewhat weak still as well as racked with guilt and worry. So I think this is part of how DB plays how Angel is carrying Buffy then. I've no idea what the bench pressing abilities of either actor would be at the different stages of filming, but I don't think how they 'act' at different stages is necessarily reflective of it.

            I'm not sure if you're saying that you thought/think Juliet was carrying James herself or not? I have always assumed there is some camera or gadgetry to Dru seeming to lift Spike with one hand and possibly even then in carrying him. I never thought the actress was really doing that as she doesn't look at all physically strong to me. But obviously, as a vampire she is supposed to be.

            Comment


            • #7
              If what OP is comparing is the actors' objective strength, then surely DB is stronger than JM : he's taller, bulkier and "bigger boned" (a term that does not exist and sounds dirty ).
              If we're talking characters...not sure, but I'd say it's pretty much the same answer. Even if we assume equal strength given to a vampire regardless of his age, there is still the natural morphology component, and so Angel should have the advantage. Doesn't mean he's necessarily a better fighter or would win in a fight, but in terms of sheer strength, I'd say he is probably stronger.
              What a challenge, honesty
              What a struggle to learn to speak
              Who would've thought that pretending was easier

              Comment


              • #8
                ALL CAUGHT UP


                All said regarding writers, producers, actors, directors, viewers, readers, etc. are what I remember, my opinions, etc.

                What’s said in this post/comment is what I remember, my opinions, etc.


                AtS = Angel.

                A&F = Angel & Faith

                AtF = After the Fall





                THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT THE CHARACTERS.





                @Stoney

                * The thread is comparing the strength of James Marsters with the strength of David Boreanaz using the examples of their ability to carry certain female actors in BtVS.

                And James’s ability to carry Juliet Landau and David Boreanaz’s ability to carry Sarah Michelle Gellar is fact. It’s not as if Juliet Landau was on wires when James was carrying her.

                And—as I’ve repeated—Buffy is canonically unconscious in “Graduation Day Part II” (B 3.22) when Angel is carrying her in the hospital. Canonically, Buffy isn’t holding on to Angel as all and her arms are limp and not supporting her weight on Angel.


                * Angel in “GD Part II” easily rips a door handle off a hospital door. He easily tosses the Mayor. If anything, he seems significantly to considerably stronger than before.


                * Carrying a woman is not akin to bench press. It’s akin to curling.


                * It seems you misread or misunderstood my quote: “I always found it odd that in the commentary for "What's My Line Part II" (B 2.10) that it had to be mentioned that Juliet Landau wasn't strong enough to carry James Marsters as she does at the end of "What's My Line Part II" as if that had to be stated. Juliet would be doing what would essentially be a very easy strict curl for her and then easily walking with James a ways. If she could have done that without help, she probably could have been the world-record holder for the strict curl at the time and would be one of the strongest people in the world at the time.

                EDIT: Actually Juliet using only one hand lifts James clear off the ground; if she could do that without help, she might simply be one of the strongest people in the world at the time; that would like hers lifting--with eventually a straight arm--an around 165 lb dumbbell or kettle-bell high over her head.”






                @Cheese Slices

                * Again, height and bulk doesn’t automatically mean someone is stronger than someone else. I gave clear examples delineating that James Marsters clearly was stronger than David Boreanaz.



                __________________________________________________ _____________________________________________



                EDIT:

                * Nicholas Brendan in "Killed By Death" (B 2.18) carries SMG in an early hospital scene seemingly without support from her; through most it though, Nic uses his lower body to help support SMG's weight and then SMG is perhaps partly supporting herself on Nic when he's not using his lower body.
                Last edited by MikeB; 18-04-21, 04:18 PM. Reason: Skimming through "Killed By Death" (B 2.18)

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by bespangeled View Post

                  I'm assuming you haven't seen the fight in Destiny.

                  Anyway, I always thought that Spike intended to lose in In The Dark. How else would he goad Angel into a righteous fury, so that he could lead him into a trap?

                  DB did have a weight gain in season five because he was waiting on knee surgery. Other than that, I'd say he's pretty damn muscular. Really, really damn muscular....sigh.
                  I have and Angel was originally scripted to win it until the last minute. Even then Angel says it wS the first time ever Spike beat him. Then you've got Angel beating Spike up as a puppet in Smile Time and manhandling him easily in Not Fade Away

                  Spike didn't intend to lose. He went there with the aim to fight Angel to get his ring back. Which Angel mocks him for mid fight
                  Angel "so you and I duke it out, this your big strategy for getting the ring back"
                  Spike "I had a plan but then I got bored, all that watching , waiting my legs were starting to cramp"
                  "end this quick just tell me where the damned ring is"
                  Angel "it wouldnt go with your outfit"

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    ALL CAUGHT UP


                    All said regarding writers, producers, actors, directors, viewers, readers, etc. are what I remember, my opinions, etc.

                    What’s said in this post/comment is what I remember, my opinions, etc.


                    AtS = Angel.

                    A&F = Angel & Faith

                    AtF = After the Fall





                    THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT THE CHARACTERS.






                    People, there is THIS thread: https://www.buffyforums.net/forum/jo...e-ptb-wr-h-etc

                    for such Spike vs. Angel discussions.

                    I'm going to soon get back to that thread because I want to include such beings as Vampire Willow, Sunday, etc.


                    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ____


                    EDIT:


                    * James Marsters in "Becoming Part II" (B 2.22) lifts Juliet Landau off the ground, essentially curls her to above his chin, and then carries her over 3 steps and this is all a 'work out' for him given the tenseness of his face and such.

                    Juliet Landau is supporting herself on him with one of her hands/arms when James has to look casual and act and say lines. Drusilla is canonically still unconscious; therefore, James isn't strong enough to casually carry her.


                    * David Boreanaz is saying lines in "Graduation Day Part II" (B 3.22) when he's carrying SMG; however, he's playing being frantic and such and his body can be tense during the scene.
                    Last edited by MikeB; 18-04-21, 09:35 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I'm sorry MikeB , but the problem is that you are using examples of the actors lifting people whilst acting. Now, I appreciate that an inability to lift someone like that, as in JL being unable to lift Spike herself as Dru appears to (as I now appreciate you were saying), isn't going to be the same situation for James or David in lifting SMG or JL. But, that doesn't remove the fact that they were lifting them in the context of the show and they will have been portraying various elements of the context of the scenes as those characters in how easily they were seeming to do so. It is impossible imho to gauge any accurate idea of the actors' strengths based on the limited contexts in which they lift people in the show.

                      I think JM looks to be healthy and strong, possibly worked out at different points more than DB did, but DB isn't lacking muscular development and is naturally larger and so could possibly still have been physically stronger even if JM exercised more. I just don't think examples of the seeming strength of their characters can be used as evidence for the actors themselves simply because there is also acting that is part of what you are assessing.

                      EDIT: You have also put this in the 'Characters & Relationships' section. If you aren't wanting the focus to be the characters but the actors and yet still want it in the Buffyverse section, it would be better as a General Discussion, so I'll move it.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        ALL CAUGHT UP


                        All said regarding writers, producers, actors, directors, viewers, readers, etc. are what I remember, my opinions, etc.

                        What’s said in this post/comment is what I remember, my opinions, etc.


                        AtS = Angel.

                        A&F = Angel & Faith

                        AtF = After the Fall







                        To begin, I'm not sure if there was any "Do a pump before a scene." stuff was going on in BtVS.




                        @Stoney



                        * We seemingly have concrete evidence of James Marsters's BtVS S2 ability to carry Juliet Landau as I detail in the "What's My Line Part I" (B 2.09), "What's My Line Part II" (B 2.10), and "Becoming Part II" (B 2.22) scenes.


                        * AGAIN: Buffy is canonically unconscious in "Graduation Day Part II" (B 2.22) when David Boreanaz carries her. And Drusilla is canonically unconscious in "Becoming Part II" (B 2.22) when Spike carries Dru.


                        * Spike and Angel are much stronger than almost all humans. Curling less than 130 lbs would be almost nothing to them. The characters would have an easy time carrying a being such as Buffy, Drusilla, etc. Spike's being tense at all while carrying Dru is not canonical in terms of carrying her being at all a 'work out' for him.


                        * AGAIN: height and bulk doesn't automatically make one stronger than another. And AGAIN: much of David's bulk is fat.

                        James has a shirtless scene in "The Harsh Light of Day" (B 4.03) and he's clearly not as lean as he is in "Out of My Mind" (B 5.04) and in BtVS S6. The lighting provides some down-lighting but it's relatively soft.


                        * Strength requires protein intake and working out to keep up the strength.

                        James had worked out for years before getting the role of Spike and purposefully became 'small' to fit in with the 'vampire look'. He would have muscle memory and the cell structure to easier gain lean muscle mass again if he works out again.

                        And James would have an easier time carrying SMG than he would carrying Juliet in terms of how much SMG and Juliet each weigh.


                        * Marc Blucas actually has a bicep vein thing in "The Freshman" (B 4.01) and he's not even flexing. James doesn't have a bicep vein thing in "The Harsh Light of Day" (B 4.03) even when James is seemingly flexing.

                        It's likely Marc is stronger than James and stronger than David--at least during the runs of BtVS and AtS.
                        Last edited by MikeB; 18-04-21, 11:50 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by BtVS fan View Post

                          I have and Angel was originally scripted to win it until the last minute. Even then Angel says it wS the first time ever Spike beat him. Then you've got Angel beating Spike up as a puppet in Smile Time and manhandling him easily in Not Fade Away

                          Spike didn't intend to lose. He went there with the aim to fight Angel to get his ring back. Which Angel mocks him for mid fight
                          Angel "so you and I duke it out, this your big strategy for getting the ring back"
                          Spike "I had a plan but then I got bored, all that watching , waiting my legs were starting to cramp"
                          "end this quick just tell me where the damned ring is"
                          Angel "it wouldnt go with your outfit"
                          Yes, Angel is definitely stronger..but Spike is the better fighter when they go head to head over the cup of torment. As for puppet!Angel, I think that 'victory' had more to do with giving Spike the car, but YMMV

                          Right, Spike did say all that. Then Angel went after him, as predicted. He went to all the places Spike predicted he would go and he was led to exactly where Spike wanted him to be. Even outside 'the game', the girl Spike was holding was a prop Spike hadn't even bitten. For a guy with no plan he certainly managed to string Angel along until he had him exactly where he wanted him - which was where Marcus, the chains and the torture implements were waiting. I'm kinda thinking there was a plan there - unless you think it's all happenstance and coincidence?
                          Can we agree that the writers made everyone do and say everything with a thought to getting good ratings and being renewed. This includes everything we love as well as everything we hate.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by MikeB View Post
                            ALL CAUGHT UP


                            All said regarding writers, producers, actors, directors, viewers, readers, etc. are what I remember, my opinions, etc.

                            What’s said in this post/comment is what I remember, my opinions, etc.


                            AtS = Angel.

                            A&F = Angel & Faith

                            AtF = After the Fall







                            To begin, I'm not sure if there was any "Do a pump before a scene." stuff was going on in BtVS.




                            @Stoney



                            * We seemingly have concrete evidence of James Marsters's BtVS S2 ability to carry Juliet Landau as I detail in the "What's My Line Part I" (B 2.09), "What's My Line Part II" (B 2.10), and "Becoming Part II" (B 2.22) scenes.


                            * AGAIN: Buffy is canonically unconscious in "Graduation Day Part II" (B 2.22) when David Boreanaz carries her. And Drusilla is canonically unconscious in "Becoming Part II" (B 2.22) when Spike carries Dru.


                            * Spike and Angel are much stronger than almost all humans. Curling less than 130 lbs would be almost nothing to them. The characters would have an easy time carrying a being such as Buffy, Drusilla, etc. Spike's being tense at all while carrying Dru is not canonical in terms of carrying her being at all a 'work out' for him.


                            * AGAIN: height and bulk doesn't automatically make one stronger than another. And AGAIN: much of David's bulk is fat.


                            * Marc Blucas actually has a bicep vein thing in "The Freshman" (B 4.01) and he's not even flexing. James doesn't have a bicep vein thing in "The Harsh Light of Day" (B 4.03) even when James is seemingly flexing.

                            It's likely Marc is stronger than James and stronger than David--at least during the runs of BtVS and AtS.
                            Blucas was a professional basketball player. I agree he was definitely the strongest of the three.

                            I do need to point out that when Angel is carrying Buffy, he is not at peak strength. He was poisoned and nearly dead only hours before.

                            Why do you believe Boreanaz is fat?
                            Can we agree that the writers made everyone do and say everything with a thought to getting good ratings and being renewed. This includes everything we love as well as everything we hate.

                            Comment


                            • Stoney
                              Stoney commented
                              Editing a comment
                              I've already mentioned that about Angel. The points when the context of acting as the characters is allowed/disallowed as part of the discussion is somewhat confusing.

                          • #15
                            ALL CAUGHT UP


                            All said regarding writers, producers, actors, directors, viewers, readers, etc. are what I remember, my opinions, etc.

                            What’s said in this post/comment is what I remember, my opinions, etc.


                            AtS = Angel.

                            A&F = Angel & Faith

                            AtF = After the Fall







                            * Angel is NOT weakened when he's carrying Buffy in "Graduation Day Part II" (B 3.22). Angel rips a door handle off a door; he tosses Mayor Wilkins several feet.


                            * I never said David Boreanaz is fat. I said that much of his bulk is fat. David usually doesn't even have an outline of his abs showing even with down-lighting.



                            THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT WHICH CHARACTER IS STRONGER: SPIKE OR ANGEL.

                            If someone wants to make a thread regarding the strength of the vampires, that's fine. Given Spike's keeping up with Buffy and Spike's sparring with Full-Power Illyria, I'd place him above Angel. Drusilla is placed above Spike. And Dracula is placed above Dru.

                            I made this thread because of the increased interest in 'working out' during the pandemic and because so much of what is represented in pop culture of 'strong' male bodies is literally unnatural.

                            Comment


                            • #16
                              Originally posted by MikeB View Post
                              ALL CAUGHT UP


                              All said regarding writers, producers, actors, directors, viewers, readers, etc. are what I remember, my opinions, etc.

                              What’s said in this post/comment is what I remember, my opinions, etc.


                              AtS = Angel.

                              A&F = Angel & Faith

                              AtF = After the Fall







                              * Angel is NOT weakened when he's carrying Buffy in "Graduation Day Part II" (B 3.22). Angel rips a door handle off a door; he tosses Mayor Wilkins several feet.


                              * I never said David Boreanaz is fat. I said that much of his bulk is fat. David usually doesn't even have an outline of his abs showing even with down-lighting.



                              THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT WHICH CHARACTER IS STRONGER: SPIKE OR ANGEL.

                              If someone wants to make a thread regarding the strength of the vampires, that's fine. Given Spike's keeping up with Buffy and Spike's sparring with Full-Power Illyria, I'd place him above Angel. Drusilla is placed above Spike. And Dracula is placed above Dru.

                              I made this thread because of the increased interest in 'working out' during the pandemic and because so much of what is represented in pop culture of 'strong' male bodies is literally unnatural.
                              Its a sentence like this which is why I question whether you're sane Mike. You say you don't call him fat then literally call him fat

                              Comment


                              • #17
                                ALL CAUGHT UP


                                All said regarding writers, producers, actors, directors, viewers, readers, etc. are what I remember, my opinions, etc.

                                What’s said in this post/comment is what I remember, my opinions, etc.


                                AtS = Angel.

                                A&F = Angel & Faith

                                AtF = After the Fall





                                Originally posted by BtVS fan View Post

                                You say you don't call [David Boreanaz] fat then literally call him fat
                                There's a big difference between 30% body fat, 25% body fat, 20% body fat, 15% body fat, 10% body fat, etc.
                                Last edited by MikeB; 19-04-21, 09:25 PM.

                                Comment


                                • #18
                                  Please everyone just focus on exploring each other's ideas and opinions, offering your own, rather than making personal comments, thanks.

                                  Comment


                                  • #19
                                    Originally posted by MikeB View Post
                                    I made this thread because of the increased interest in 'working out' during the pandemic and because so much of what is represented in pop culture of 'strong' male bodies is literally unnatural.
                                    Unnatural in what sense?

                                    I think what is confusing the thread, and which made it hard for me to decide where to place it, is that you are wanting to discuss the actors but are referencing the characters as evidence. But what we see of their strengths in the show and how easily or not they may be performing different actions may be part of the context of the scenes and not 'real'. As you've raised yourself in relation to JL, we know what we see is often manipulated and not 100% genuine. Having said that, I don't doubt JM and DB can lift SMG/JL, but how and when they appear to struggle I think can't be taken as evident truths. In terms of their physical strengths outside the show, I have no idea how they compare so it makes it difficult to speculate.

                                    Comment


                                    • bespangeled
                                      bespangeled commented
                                      Editing a comment
                                      Agreed. However strong DB is, he was plying a character who was still recovering.

                                  • #20
                                    ALL CAUGHT UP


                                    All said regarding writers, producers, actors, directors, viewers, readers, etc. are what I remember, my opinions, etc.

                                    What’s said in this post/comment is what I remember, my opinions, etc.


                                    AtS = Angel.

                                    A&F = Angel & Faith

                                    AtF = After the Fall






                                    @Stoney

                                    * Look up "natural bodybuilding".

                                    Most of what you see in the superhero movies is not achieved naturally by the actors.


                                    * Buffy is canonically unconscious in "Graduation Day Part II" (B 3.22), yet SMG is holding on to David Boreanaz and using both her hand to do it. Those are facts.

                                    I gave the reference points to James Marsters's and David Boreanaz's actual real-life strength.



                                    * I prefer the male bodies shown in the Buffyverse because they all seem natural and thus achievable naturally.

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