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  • Summers_Anne
    replied
    I also like the noxon version better

    Leave a comment:


  • Priceless
    replied
    I think what we got from Xander was more juvenile, which fitted with his character at the time. Noxon's words are beautiful, but it's not S5 Xander. I thought what we got was much more believable, especially with what comes later, and is exactly why he doesn't mention Anya, or only in relation to himself.

    Xander leaves Anya because he's afraid of hurting her, not because he doesn't love her. He left her because of his insecurities about himself, because he was hating himself.
    Partly yes, but I also think that's a very simple explanation. Xander's had doubts from the start of the season, which is why he won't announce the engagement. I think this demon just gave him an easy out, and why he was so easy to persuade. Xander's motivations for his whole relationship with Anya seem pretty complicated. I think he loved her in a way.

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  • Sosa lola
    replied
    I do like the Noxon version more because it is about Anya and he mentions things Anya does like working the cash register.

    Originally posted by Priceless View Post
    Can you imagine a Xander who says this, leaving Anya at the altar? I think what we got actually works with the character and the story. Xander's view of Anya was about how she made him feel, because he centred himself in their relationship.
    Xander leaves Anya because he's afraid of hurting her, not because he doesn't love her. He left her because of his insecurities about himself, because he was hating himself.

    Leave a comment:


  • TimeTravellingBunny
    replied
    Originally posted by Priceless View Post
    Can you imagine a Xander who says this, leaving Anya at the altar? I think what we got actually works with the character and the story. Xander's view of Anya was about how she made him feel, because he centred himself in their relationship.
    Yes, I can imagine it. Hell's Bells made it obvious how much he's affected by his family experiences and afraid that he would end up as his father and ruin their relationship and even hurt her.
    Which he then did by leaving her, as a self-fulfilling prophecy.

    Leave a comment:


  • Priceless
    replied
    Can you imagine a Xander who says this, leaving Anya at the altar? I think what we got actually works with the character and the story. Xander's view of Anya was about how she made him feel, because he centred himself in their relationship.

    Leave a comment:


  • TimeTravellingBunny
    replied
    Originally posted by Sosa lola View Post
    Is it this the one?

    INT. ANYA'S APARTMENT - NIGHT

    Xander comes through the front door, already talking as he moves toward Anya - who stands, sleepy in her PJ's at the other end of the room. His manner is urgent and heartfelt-

    XANDER
    I need to say something to you.
    I should have said it a long time
    ago. I mean, you may not even
    know... I love you, Anya, more
    every day. I love the way you see
    things. I love the way you work a
    cash register and how beautiful
    you are - and how amazingly sweet
    and crazy you can be at the same
    time...

    He's at her side now, and she's crying joyful tears. He takes her face in his hands...

    XANDER
    I can't imagine my days without
    you - and I wouldn't want to.

    ...and kisses her deeply. It grows quickly passionate and loving as we-


    Link
    Yes.

    Whedon's version is more about how Anya makes Xander feel, how she makes him confident about his masculinity {"You make me feel like a man"), while Noxon's was more about her as herself, and him loving her as a person. It's sweeter and more loving, to me.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sosa lola
    replied
    Originally posted by TimeTravellingBunny View Post
    , the one exception is Xander's speech to Anya, where I prefer Noxon's version in the original script for Into the Woods.
    Is it this the one?

    INT. ANYA'S APARTMENT - NIGHT

    Xander comes through the front door, already talking as he moves toward Anya - who stands, sleepy in her PJ's at the other end of the room. His manner is urgent and heartfelt-

    XANDER
    I need to say something to you.
    I should have said it a long time
    ago. I mean, you may not even
    know... I love you, Anya, more
    every day. I love the way you see
    things. I love the way you work a
    cash register and how beautiful
    you are - and how amazingly sweet
    and crazy you can be at the same
    time...

    He's at her side now, and she's crying joyful tears. He takes her face in his hands...

    XANDER
    I can't imagine my days without
    you - and I wouldn't want to.

    ...and kisses her deeply. It grows quickly passionate and loving as we-


    Link

    Leave a comment:


  • TriBel
    replied
    Originally posted by TimeTravellingBunny View Post
    There used to be a site with all of the Buffy original scripts, but I can't find it now, just the sites with transcripts.

    Does anyone know if that site still exists, or if there's some other place to find the original Buffy scripts?
    I think it closed at the end of last year.

    Leave a comment:


  • TimeTravellingBunny
    replied
    Originally posted by Cheese Slices View Post

    Do you have a link for this one ? I'd love to read it.
    There used to be a site with all of the Buffy original scripts, but I can't find it now, just the sites with transcripts.

    Does anyone know if that site still exists, or if there's some other place to find the original Buffy scripts?

    Leave a comment:


  • TriBel
    replied
    I remember several instances of blatant disgust at the implication of Buffy giving a bj to Spike, in a Buffy would never do that disgusting thing kind of way. Puzzling, is the word.
    LOL! I've just remembered one of the reasons I like Lucifer:

    LUCIFER: So poised. The detective obviously gets her strength from you.
    PENELOPE: (scoffs) This? It's just acting. Sadly, I've had practice. I played this role before, 16 years ago.
    LUCIFER: Well, maybe it's like butt stuff.

    Penelope looks at him in bewilderment

    LUCIFER: Easier the second time around.

    Returning to the subject in hand (so to speak). I think there's a tendency for some fans to sanctify Buffy and, in the process, infantalize her. Paradoxically, in the process of idealizing her as a woman they also strip away that which defines her as a woman (the freedom to have sex legally) and not a girl. It's a little bit...disturbing.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cheese Slices
    replied
    Originally posted by TimeTravellingBunny View Post
    I disagree that none of these have significant Spuffy scenes. Wrecked does, and the post-coital argument is a very memorable scene for me. She also wrote the post-coital conversation at the beginning of Dead Things. They may be others - showrunners always oversee everything and sometimes do uncredited re-writes.
    But I agree that it's bizarre to credit/blame her solely for Spuffy, when so many writers were involved, and Whedon was making most of the decisions.
    I think people tend to assume writers "ship" the way fans do, whereas I feel they love writing what is interesting and crunchy to write. Spuffy fits that description and was more in her wheelhouse tone-wise, so I'm not surprised that Noxon enjoyed writing it.

    Originally posted by TimeTravellingBunny View Post

    Yep, as others said, it's misogynistic BS.
    But others have focused on proving that Noxon wasn't solely responsible for the sex in the show, and no one has asked: and what exactly would be wrong if she was?
    What's wrong with having unconventional sex in a show?

    That person sounds like a misogynist and a prude.
    I really don't get what some people's deal is with this. To feel disturbed by the emotional mess (in a good way) that is the Buffy and Spike stuff in S6 is one thing, but I've seen so many people being disgusted/offended by the sex itself and I just don't get it. I remember several instances of blatant disgust at the implication of Buffy giving a bj to Spike, in a Buffy would never do that disgusting thing kind of way. Puzzling, is the word.
    Originally posted by TimeTravellingBunny View Post
    the one exception is Xander's speech to Anya, where I prefer Noxon's version in the original script for Into the Woods.
    Do you have a link for this one ? I'd love to read it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Priceless
    replied
    Maybe I should have said that Paul shows disdain for Noxon's writing/producing etc. not for her personally. He's very respectful of all the cast and crew. But a reviewer is critical, it's sort of their job description in a way. Nothing is flawless and no matter how much you love it, there are things you would change or criticise.

    Leave a comment:


  • TriBel
    replied
    TBH, because Western vampires mostly (?) reproduce by penetrating people with their teeth, I think it's difficult to write in the tradition without - at the very least - alluding to sex.

    Leave a comment:


  • Priceless
    replied
    Originally posted by Willow from Buffy View Post
    Priceless, could you write him an email and ask him to defend his assertion that Marti only writes about sex? It would be interesting to hear him justify it. I just find it hard to believe that someone could think that after having thought about it for more than a second.
    I can't write to him to defend his assertions, but anyone else can if they want to. I've listened to this podcast for a long time, and he's said other things that I also disagree with and I didn't write to him then - I bought it here to discuss. I think to understand his views you'd have to listen to the whole podcast

    https://conswithdead.podbean.com/

    - - - Updated - - -

    You opened this thread by describing how he's constantly disrespectful to Marti Noxon in his podcast.
    I thought I said he shows his disdain? But he's nice, he's not rude or disrespectful, so if I said that, I take it back. Plus he has a wide range of guests on, many of whom disagree with him, so he is prepared to hear opposing views, which I like. Lots of podcasters don't like dissenters.

    Leave a comment:


  • TimeTravellingBunny
    replied
    Originally posted by Priceless View Post
    The podcast is Conversations With Dead People and it's a really good podcast. The reviewer is called Paul (I think) and he's a big Spike fan, though not a fan of Spuffy. Lots of his guests are from academia and he's a regular at the Slayage conferences, so he knows a lot of people in that world. He's never disrespectful about anyone and I would recommend this podcast, I've enjoyed it even though I don't agree with everything he and his guests say.
    You opened this thread by describing how he's constantly disrespectful to Marti Noxon in his podcast.

    The presenter has never hidden his disdain for Marti Noxon and in this episode he argues that everything Noxon did on this show was about 'sex in general and often twisted, dangerous and unconventional . . . sex' and the significance of her musical number in this episode is about a woman trying to get out of a parking ticked by informing the officer that she's not wearing any underwear.

    Leave a comment:


  • Willow from Buffy
    replied
    Priceless, could you write him an email and ask him to defend his assertion that Marti only writes about sex? It would be interesting to hear him justify it. I just find it hard to believe that someone could think that after having thought about it for more than a second.

    Leave a comment:


  • TriBel
    replied
    'in this episode he argues that everything Noxon did on this show was about sex in general and often twisted, dangerous and unconventional . . . sex'
    LOL! He's not a Freudian is he? WTF is "twisted sex"? Is sex only allowed a) for procreation and b) in the missionary position? Buffy kisses dead people - several times over - is that not twisted?

    Someone better explain to him that he's only here because his mum and dad had intercourse. TBH, I think he's the one with the hang-ups.

    Leave a comment:


  • Priceless
    replied
    Please tell me which podcast it is, so I would never even entertain the thought of listening to it.

    Yep, as others said, it's misogynistic BS.
    But others have focused on proving that Noxon wasn't solely responsible for the sex in the show, and no one has asked: and what exactly would be wrong if she was?
    What's wrong with having unconventional sex in a show?

    That person sounds like a misogynist and a prude.
    The podcast is Conversations With Dead People and it's a really good podcast. The reviewer is called Paul (I think) and he's a big Spike fan, though not a fan of Spuffy. Lots of his guests are from academia and he's a regular at the Slayage conferences, so he knows a lot of people in that world. He's never disrespectful about anyone and I would recommend this podcast, I've enjoyed it even though I don't agree with everything he and his guests say.

    Leave a comment:


  • TimeTravellingBunny
    replied
    Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
    The Marti Noxon hate mostly stemmed from misogynistic bullshit. She was mostly a scapegoat for things people disliked about BtVS which at the time they weren't willing to hold Whedon accountable for. Funnily enough, had BtVS taken place in 2020, I think people would be a lot more willing to hold Whedon to task and would probably be a lot more lenient on Noxon.

    The fandom's opinion of Marti has always been really strange, to say the least. For a start, Noxon regularly gets credited for Spuffy (or blamed depending on what your persuasion is) despite not writing any significant Spuffy episodes at all. This is her official writing list;

    What's My Line, Part One
    What's My Line, Part Two
    Bad Eggs
    Surprise
    Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered
    I Only Have Eyes for You
    Dead Man's Party
    Beauty and the Beasts
    The Wish
    Consequences
    The Prom
    Living Conditions
    Wild at Heart
    Doomed
    Goodbye Iowa
    New Moon Rising
    Buffy vs. Dracula
    Into the Woods" (writer/director)
    Forever (writer/director)
    Bargaining, Part One
    Wrecked
    Villains
    Bring on the Night


    Like, not a single Spuffy episode in sight. And none of these episodes have pretty memorable or remarkable Spuffy scenes either. On the other hand, she did write Surprise, I Only Have Eyes For You, Beauty and the Beasts and The Prom which are all pretty Bangel-centric episodes and Forever which has one of the only few Bangel scenes post-S3. After that she penned two of the most pivotal Willow/Oz episodes with Wild At Heart and New Moon Rising and some very Ruffy-centric episodes like Doomed, Goodbye Iowa and of course Into the Woods. Arguably, Spuffy is the one ship she had the least involvement with. So where she gets this reputation, either good or bad, as being a Spuffy writer I have no idea

    As a writer I think she's mostly pretty great. Episodes like Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered, I Only Have Eyes For You, The Wish, Prom and New Moon Rising are some my absolute favourites. I also really enjoy episodes like Surprise, Consequences, Wild At Heart, Living Conditions, Buffy VS Dracula and Bargaining Part One. Whedon also credited her with completely overhauling Halloween even though she's not credited and I adore that episode.

    IMO, her only real clunkers are Doomed (the string scene is insulting), Wrecked (embarrassing in many ways) and Bring on the Night (where S7 goes downhill). However, Bad Eggs is really disliked (I personally have never really figured out why) as is Dead Man's Party and Beauty and the Beasts so I'd say she's written some objective failures as well. A lot of the fandom hate I've seen for her is also due to the fact that she wrote Into the Woods and people despise that episode and how it "blames" Buffy for the Buffy/Riley breakup.

    I do think she's a better writer than a show runner, though. I've seen interviews by other writers (I'm struggling to remember who - possibly Fury or Petrie) who said that Noxon really struggled in S6 without Whedon's continuous presence on set and she seemed unsure as to what decisions to make often. I do think the quality dipped starting in S6 and then pretty rapidly in S7 and as captain of the ship (on a day to day basis anyway) she should reasonably be held accountable for that. However, I think there was outside factors contributing to that as well including the fact that the show was ageing and like the majority of the shows in their advancing years, they start to lose steam. And I'd also lay a lot of that blame on Whedon too seeing as how he's the guy who ran off to focus on Firefly whilst still being executive producer on BtVS.

    But there's definitely a sexist edge to the criticisms against her. And it's easy to get roped in into blaming her for many of the faults of the series. I fell into that trap in my younger years because I'd seen it said so often I just assumed it to be true. She did a lot of really great work on the series and penned some amazing episodes. I'd argue she's absolutely one of the strongest writers after Whedon himself.

    I can't say I love listening to her commentaries though. I assume she's just being self-deprecating and hard on herself but if you ever listen to her DVD commentary of Bargaining she pretty much just insults the episode and rips it to shreds. It's a little bizarre considering she both worked on the show and wrote the episode
    I disagree that none of these have significant Spuffy scenes. Wrecked does, and the post-coital argument is a very memorable scene for me. She also wrote the post-coital conversation at the beginning of Dead Things. They may be others - showrunners always oversee everything and sometimes do uncredited re-writes.
    But I agree that it's bizarre to credit/blame her solely for Spuffy, when so many writers were involved, and Whedon was making most of the decisions.

    And that includes S6, where he seems to have actually made just as many if not more decisions than she has. Marti has said in a recent interview, when asked about Joss being 'less involved' in S6, that "for Joss, being "less involved" means "not every single thing"." So, he wasn't deciding every single thing for a change, but he was still making so many of the ultimate decisions. And that fits with what we know about the plot points and moments he was directly responsible for (killing Tara, Willow going evil, Spuffy sex breaking the house, the balcony scene..).
    If you put her comment and Petrie/Fury's, could it be that she was unsure which decisions to take exactly because she knew she wasn't really the showrunner, just acting shworunner who could be overruled any moment and had to ask Joss for approval?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Originally posted by Priceless View Post
    Listening to Conversations With Dead People podcast (good podcast, would recommend) and they were reviewing OMWF. The presenter has never hidden his disdain for Marti Noxon and in this episode he argues that everything Noxon did on this show was about 'sex in general and often twisted, dangerous and unconventional . . . sex' and the significance of her musical number in this episode is about a woman trying to get out of a parking ticked by informing the officer that she's not wearing any underwear.

    I like Noxon's writings (I am a Spuffy fan after all) and I thought that underwear line was just a throwaway line because underwear rhymes with share/care. But am I not giving Whedon the credit he deserves and are any of his lines actually throwaway?

    Anyway, what are your thoughts on Noxon's writing and can she only write about sex, and if so, is that a bad thing?
    Please tell me which podcast it is, so I would never even entertain the thought of listening to it.

    Yep, as others said, it's misogynistic BS.
    But others have focused on proving that Noxon wasn't solely responsible for the sex in the show, and no one has asked: and what exactly would be wrong if she was?
    What's wrong with having unconventional sex in a show?

    That person sounds like a misogynist and a prude.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
    Oh absolutely. This idea that whoever wrote an episode is to blame for whatever major plot points happens in it is always really naive and completely misunderstands how TV shows are written. As you say, the writers room gets together and breaks down the episodes together and then the writer scripts the dialogue. It's ridiculous to assume that, for instance, DeKnight decided Spike should try and rape Buffy and wrote that of his own accord or Noxon decided she wanted to breakup Buffy/Angel so she wrote The Prom that way. Critiques about plot points should be directed at Whedon, the writer's room in general, or a specific writer if it has been confirmed it was their idea (and even then Whedon had to sign off on it).

    Critiques for individual writers should mostly come down to the dialogue and basic writing. For instance, I think Espenson is notorious for breaking character just to tell a joke. I think there's evidence of that throughout her episodes that is down to her own writing as opposed to major plot points in that episode that would've been decided by everyone.
    It's kind of funny and sad at the same time that DeKnight had to point it out in interviews at the time that no, he did not decide to kill off Tara or have anything else happen that happened in his episodes.

    But even with the dialogue, we can't always be sure who wrote it, since there have been many re-writes.

    BTW, while I love most of Whedon's re-writes of other writers' dialogue (like Petrie's in Beneath You), the one exception is Xander's speech to Anya, where I prefer Noxon's version in the original script for Into the Woods.

    Leave a comment:


  • Priceless
    replied
    I personally love Espenson's work. I would argue that her jokes opened up more of the character, rather than changed the character. There's nothing that stands out to me at completely breaking character. But I do think writing, like most things, comes down to personal taste.

    Leave a comment:

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