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  • #21
    Originally posted by Priceless View Post
    The podcast is Conversations With Dead People and it's a really good podcast. The reviewer is called Paul (I think) and he's a big Spike fan, though not a fan of Spuffy. Lots of his guests are from academia and he's a regular at the Slayage conferences, so he knows a lot of people in that world. He's never disrespectful about anyone and I would recommend this podcast, I've enjoyed it even though I don't agree with everything he and his guests say.
    You opened this thread by describing how he's constantly disrespectful to Marti Noxon in his podcast.

    The presenter has never hidden his disdain for Marti Noxon and in this episode he argues that everything Noxon did on this show was about 'sex in general and often twisted, dangerous and unconventional . . . sex' and the significance of her musical number in this episode is about a woman trying to get out of a parking ticked by informing the officer that she's not wearing any underwear.
    You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

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    • #22
      Originally posted by Willow from Buffy View Post
      Priceless, could you write him an email and ask him to defend his assertion that Marti only writes about sex? It would be interesting to hear him justify it. I just find it hard to believe that someone could think that after having thought about it for more than a second.
      I can't write to him to defend his assertions, but anyone else can if they want to. I've listened to this podcast for a long time, and he's said other things that I also disagree with and I didn't write to him then - I bought it here to discuss. I think to understand his views you'd have to listen to the whole podcast

      https://conswithdead.podbean.com/

      - - - Updated - - -

      You opened this thread by describing how he's constantly disrespectful to Marti Noxon in his podcast.
      I thought I said he shows his disdain? But he's nice, he's not rude or disrespectful, so if I said that, I take it back. Plus he has a wide range of guests on, many of whom disagree with him, so he is prepared to hear opposing views, which I like. Lots of podcasters don't like dissenters.

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      • #23
        TBH, because Western vampires mostly (?) reproduce by penetrating people with their teeth, I think it's difficult to write in the tradition without - at the very least - alluding to sex.
        sigpic

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        • #24
          Maybe I should have said that Paul shows disdain for Noxon's writing/producing etc. not for her personally. He's very respectful of all the cast and crew. But a reviewer is critical, it's sort of their job description in a way. Nothing is flawless and no matter how much you love it, there are things you would change or criticise.

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          • #25
            Originally posted by TimeTravellingBunny View Post
            I disagree that none of these have significant Spuffy scenes. Wrecked does, and the post-coital argument is a very memorable scene for me. She also wrote the post-coital conversation at the beginning of Dead Things. They may be others - showrunners always oversee everything and sometimes do uncredited re-writes.
            But I agree that it's bizarre to credit/blame her solely for Spuffy, when so many writers were involved, and Whedon was making most of the decisions.
            I think people tend to assume writers "ship" the way fans do, whereas I feel they love writing what is interesting and crunchy to write. Spuffy fits that description and was more in her wheelhouse tone-wise, so I'm not surprised that Noxon enjoyed writing it.

            Originally posted by TimeTravellingBunny View Post

            Yep, as others said, it's misogynistic BS.
            But others have focused on proving that Noxon wasn't solely responsible for the sex in the show, and no one has asked: and what exactly would be wrong if she was?
            What's wrong with having unconventional sex in a show?

            That person sounds like a misogynist and a prude.
            I really don't get what some people's deal is with this. To feel disturbed by the emotional mess (in a good way) that is the Buffy and Spike stuff in S6 is one thing, but I've seen so many people being disgusted/offended by the sex itself and I just don't get it. I remember several instances of blatant disgust at the implication of Buffy giving a bj to Spike, in a Buffy would never do that disgusting thing kind of way. Puzzling, is the word.
            Originally posted by TimeTravellingBunny View Post
            the one exception is Xander's speech to Anya, where I prefer Noxon's version in the original script for Into the Woods.
            Do you have a link for this one ? I'd love to read it.
            What a challenge, honesty
            What a struggle to learn to speak
            Who would've thought that pretending was easier

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            • #26
              I remember several instances of blatant disgust at the implication of Buffy giving a bj to Spike, in a Buffy would never do that disgusting thing kind of way. Puzzling, is the word.
              LOL! I've just remembered one of the reasons I like Lucifer:

              LUCIFER: So poised. The detective obviously gets her strength from you.
              PENELOPE: (scoffs) This? It's just acting. Sadly, I've had practice. I played this role before, 16 years ago.
              LUCIFER: Well, maybe it's like butt stuff.

              Penelope looks at him in bewilderment

              LUCIFER: Easier the second time around.

              Returning to the subject in hand (so to speak). I think there's a tendency for some fans to sanctify Buffy and, in the process, infantalize her. Paradoxically, in the process of idealizing her as a woman they also strip away that which defines her as a woman (the freedom to have sex legally) and not a girl. It's a little bit...disturbing.
              sigpic

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              • #27
                Originally posted by Cheese Slices View Post

                Do you have a link for this one ? I'd love to read it.
                There used to be a site with all of the Buffy original scripts, but I can't find it now, just the sites with transcripts.

                Does anyone know if that site still exists, or if there's some other place to find the original Buffy scripts?
                You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

                Comment


                • #28
                  Originally posted by TimeTravellingBunny View Post
                  There used to be a site with all of the Buffy original scripts, but I can't find it now, just the sites with transcripts.

                  Does anyone know if that site still exists, or if there's some other place to find the original Buffy scripts?
                  I think it closed at the end of last year.
                  sigpic

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    Originally posted by TimeTravellingBunny View Post
                    , the one exception is Xander's speech to Anya, where I prefer Noxon's version in the original script for Into the Woods.
                    Is it this the one?

                    INT. ANYA'S APARTMENT - NIGHT

                    Xander comes through the front door, already talking as he moves toward Anya - who stands, sleepy in her PJ's at the other end of the room. His manner is urgent and heartfelt-

                    XANDER
                    I need to say something to you.
                    I should have said it a long time
                    ago. I mean, you may not even
                    know... I love you, Anya, more
                    every day. I love the way you see
                    things. I love the way you work a
                    cash register and how beautiful
                    you are - and how amazingly sweet
                    and crazy you can be at the same
                    time...

                    He's at her side now, and she's crying joyful tears. He takes her face in his hands...

                    XANDER
                    I can't imagine my days without
                    you - and I wouldn't want to.

                    ...and kisses her deeply. It grows quickly passionate and loving as we-


                    Link
                    Made by Trickyboxes
                    Halfrek gives Spike the curse that will change his entire life. Teenage Dirtbag

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                    • #30
                      Originally posted by Sosa lola View Post
                      Is it this the one?

                      INT. ANYA'S APARTMENT - NIGHT

                      Xander comes through the front door, already talking as he moves toward Anya - who stands, sleepy in her PJ's at the other end of the room. His manner is urgent and heartfelt-

                      XANDER
                      I need to say something to you.
                      I should have said it a long time
                      ago. I mean, you may not even
                      know... I love you, Anya, more
                      every day. I love the way you see
                      things. I love the way you work a
                      cash register and how beautiful
                      you are - and how amazingly sweet
                      and crazy you can be at the same
                      time...

                      He's at her side now, and she's crying joyful tears. He takes her face in his hands...

                      XANDER
                      I can't imagine my days without
                      you - and I wouldn't want to.

                      ...and kisses her deeply. It grows quickly passionate and loving as we-


                      Link
                      Yes.

                      Whedon's version is more about how Anya makes Xander feel, how she makes him confident about his masculinity {"You make me feel like a man"), while Noxon's was more about her as herself, and him loving her as a person. It's sweeter and more loving, to me.
                      You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        Can you imagine a Xander who says this, leaving Anya at the altar? I think what we got actually works with the character and the story. Xander's view of Anya was about how she made him feel, because he centred himself in their relationship.

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                        • #32
                          Originally posted by Priceless View Post
                          Can you imagine a Xander who says this, leaving Anya at the altar? I think what we got actually works with the character and the story. Xander's view of Anya was about how she made him feel, because he centred himself in their relationship.
                          Yes, I can imagine it. Hell's Bells made it obvious how much he's affected by his family experiences and afraid that he would end up as his father and ruin their relationship and even hurt her.
                          Which he then did by leaving her, as a self-fulfilling prophecy.
                          You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            I do like the Noxon version more because it is about Anya and he mentions things Anya does like working the cash register.

                            Originally posted by Priceless View Post
                            Can you imagine a Xander who says this, leaving Anya at the altar? I think what we got actually works with the character and the story. Xander's view of Anya was about how she made him feel, because he centred himself in their relationship.
                            Xander leaves Anya because he's afraid of hurting her, not because he doesn't love her. He left her because of his insecurities about himself, because he was hating himself.
                            Made by Trickyboxes
                            Halfrek gives Spike the curse that will change his entire life. Teenage Dirtbag

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                            • #34
                              I think what we got from Xander was more juvenile, which fitted with his character at the time. Noxon's words are beautiful, but it's not S5 Xander. I thought what we got was much more believable, especially with what comes later, and is exactly why he doesn't mention Anya, or only in relation to himself.

                              Xander leaves Anya because he's afraid of hurting her, not because he doesn't love her. He left her because of his insecurities about himself, because he was hating himself.
                              Partly yes, but I also think that's a very simple explanation. Xander's had doubts from the start of the season, which is why he won't announce the engagement. I think this demon just gave him an easy out, and why he was so easy to persuade. Xander's motivations for his whole relationship with Anya seem pretty complicated. I think he loved her in a way.

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                              • #35
                                I also like the noxon version better

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