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  • Originally posted by TimeTravellingBunny View Post
    No, it wasn't. You're not trying to hurt each other in sparring, so you hold back. That was about venting their frustrations on each other, no holding back.
    They weren't trying to hurt each other in the alley/house, either. What the hell episode did you watch? Maybe you're misunderstanding what "no holding back" actually means -- that they are trying to end one another. And you are straight up silly if you think that was even remotely at play in "Smashed". To borrow the best line from the otherwise crappy Total Recall remake trailer, "you haven't even begun to see (Buffy and Spike) try to kill (each other)", if your frame of reference is "Smashed".

    BTW, "Smashed" is an odd episode to cite in proving that Spike hadn't lost a step to Buffy since it comes after an episode that he spent hiding behind her skirt for protection from a talking pun and his mooks.

    Yes, exactly. So how the **** is he holding his own against Buffy, if she indeed is so many times stronger than him that she should beat him in 5 seconds? If they're of comparable strengths, than their fights make sense. If she's the Shaq to his SMG, then they make absolutely no sense at all.
    Well, your total mistake in thinking that they were fighting for real, for keeps is probably coloring your perceptions. Ultimately that fight was little more than two brothers wrestling in the yard, it was the demonstration fight in "Fool For Love" all over again except they were both allowed to hit each other.

    Caleb handed Buffy her ass before she found the Scythe, so I don't know what your point is. Buffy got more experienced, more skilled, better as a fighter as years went by. She didn't get more superpowered. She doesn't have the superpowers of Glory or First-empowered Caleb.
    Actually, there's plenty of Watsonian evidence, thanks to the push they gave her, to argue that Buffy did in fact grow substantially stronger over the course of the series. It's really the only way to explain why it took more and more astounding enemies to create a believable and imposing challenge for her. Since I'm talking interchangeably about Spike and Angel and any other vampire here, I feel obliged to point it out again -- if the writers felt like someone who is "just a vampire" was a suitable nemesis for Buffy anymore, why all those swanky powers for Angel? Because they don't feel like that, and they haven't written her that way for a long time.

    No, it seems you're more comfortable with women who are such lame fighters that they allow men many times physically weaker than them to hold their own against them and give them trouble and even draw or beat them; women who, therefore, would have little to offer without their physical strength aka "brute force" (copyright: Beverly)... and therefore are anything but role models for the majority of women, who lack physical strength and brute force.
    There's something truly awesome about how you manage to actually believe Buffy is a worse role-model if she could beat Spike's ass in a real fight to the death. But, then, you also seem to think that's what they were having until the sex broke out, so, hey.

    This all came up because Mike was confused as to why Buffy chased the zompire bug and not Spike. The short and factual answer is, because Buffy is the best weapon between the two in all situations. The longer, more politically correct, less fannus interruptus answer is, because Spike could monitor all the stuff better since he knew the ship. And the bugs would have panicked if their leader were in danger. Not at all because Buffy is just more badass than Spike and would, 9 times out of 10 at this point in the franchise, be able to pull his fangs out through has butt and wear them as earrings
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    • Perhaps they put Spike in the 'Ripley' role at first and he just didn't look as good in the outfit.

      Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
      The longer, more politically correct, less fannus interruptus answer is, because Spike could monitor all the stuff better since he knew the ship. And the bugs would have panicked if their leader were in danger. Not at all because Buffy is just more badass than Spike and would, 9 times out of 10 at this point in the franchise, be able to pull his fangs out through has butt and wear them as earrings
      Ha! Probably to the former. Perhaps Spike couldn't face the idea of offing Irene.

      I think you are probably putting too much of a balance in Buffy's favour. The girl didn't even realise she was a robot so I wouldn't assume her equilibrium is so centred she is at the top of her game, or that Spike couldn't spot an opening even if she was.
      Last edited by Stoney; 28-06-12, 12:10 PM.

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      • Originally posted by Beverly View Post
        Oh for ****'s sake, strength is a HUGE part of it, but skills are also part of the equation. SPIKE IS A SKILLED FIGHTER in case you missed the memo, which you clearly did. Buffy is also a skilled fighter, which is why she is able to beat those who are stronger than her. Same applies to Angel. Or hey--even Fred! She used her mind to beat some of her opponents (Wesley in "Billy" comes to mind). It's more than just strength, but obviously it gives you a leg up in a fight. Why is this so hard to understand?
        For frak's sake, indeed.

        Buffy is a skilled fighter! Exactly! Let's see:

        BUFFY = skilled fighter + (supposedly, according to you) 10 times physically stronger than Spike

        SPIKE = skilled fighter + (supposedly, according to you) 10 times physically weaker than Buffy

        How the frak do you imagine that would ever be anything close to an evenly matched fight? Unless Spike is many times better fighter than Buffy (and so fast and skilled he never even takes a punch from Buffy), a one-on-one fight with that premise should end with a knockout in 10 seconds or less.

        Really, which part of that don't you understand?

        Originally posted by Stoney View Post
        Time out, time out, step away from the troll hammer!!! Whoa.

        TTB has a point in that if Buffy was comparatively soooo much stronger than Spike that he can't even lift the hammer she can wield like a feather then her landing a single punch on his noggin should knock him out cold. The hammer is a plot thing because it has to be Buffy fighting Glory whilst Spike goes up to the tower to fail and Buffy to follow. That is why he can't pick it up and it does sit as an unrealistic and extreme example of a disparity in their strengths that isn't maintained in any other way so should really be ignored.
        Exactly.

        Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
        There's something truly awesome about how you manage to actually believe Buffy is a worse role-model if she could beat Spike's ass in a real fight to the death.
        Buffy can and did beat Spike's ass in a real fight, more than once. But yeah, she'd be a worse role-model if she didn't have much more to offer than incredible physical strength, and if she had so much trouble kicking the ass of people 10 times physically weaker than her in a real fight. That would also make her winning her fights much less impressive. Who's a more impressive fighter, Bruce Lee, or some 220 cm, 200 kg of muscle (or if you will, 7 feet, 450 pounds of muscle) dude who just needs to land a punch to knock you out? Especially if that big dude nearly gets defeated by someone 10 times physically weaker?

        But, then, you also seem to think that's what they were having until the sex broke out, so, hey.
        Nope, they weren't having a fight to the death - because that one would involve weapons. Spike does have his, but he didn't get them out i.e. go into the vampface or use his fangs, and Buffy never even reached for a piece of wood (err... I don't mean that one) and you can't kill a vampire with blows. What they were having is a fight to kick each other's asses as much as possible and vent their frustrations and anger. And in that kind of fight, if Buffy was that many times physically stronger than Spike, Spike wouldn't be able to stand up after one blow from her hit him in the head. It's as simple as that.
        You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

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        • Originally posted by TimeTravellingBunny View Post
          Nope, they weren't having a fight to the death - because that one would involve weapons. Spike does have his, but he didn't get them out i.e. go into the vampface or use his fangs, and Buffy never even reached for a piece of wood (err... I don't mean that one) and you can't kill a vampire with blows. What they were having is a fight to kick each other's asses as much as possible and vent their frustrations and anger. And in that kind of fight, if Buffy was that many times physically stronger than Spike, Spike wouldn't be able to stand up after one blow from her hit him in the head. It's as simple as that.
          Seriously? That's what you're going with, the only difference from the "real deal", the only sign to look for of note, is weapons? Probably as many as half, possibly several more, of Buffy's fights are fought unarmed, with her only pulling a stake to give the coup de gr?ce. And a very, very legitimate portion of her overall vampire stakings and beheadings are carried out with environmental weapons -- i.e. a branch, a pencil, a pallet shard, an open car door, etc. Fights that start and/or are mostly carried out with Buffy unarmed. Weapons or no weapons isn't really all that instructive on the whole "is this a real, real fight" question, but, if one has the knack for it, they really aren't anything you'd look for anyway. Nobody watching that episode could actually be legitimately confused on whether or not Buffy and Spike are trying to kill each other.

          Is it really that horrifying from a fan standpoint that Buffy has left Spike and Angel behind her as a melee combatant, that selling one of them as a legitimate enemy requires them to drop a bunch of other superpowers into play beyond those typical to vampires?
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          • Is it really that horrifying from a fan standpoint that Buffy has left Spike and Angel behind her as a melee combatant, that selling one of them as a legitimate enemy requires them to drop a bunch of other superpowers into play beyond those typical to vampires?
            Considering that Angel would have been totally pwned by Willow or the hundreds of other Slayers who were on Buffy's side if he had no other superpowers in S8, I am not sure how this proves anything about the power discrepancy between him and Buffy.

            Let's face it, the characters' combat skills are what the plot need them to be. Trying to make sense of that is pointless.
            Xander: "Willow, you are the best human ever! I adore you! Well, that's the cookies talking, but you rock!"

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            • Originally posted by Jack Shaftoe View Post
              Considering that Angel would have been totally pwned by Willow or the hundreds of other Slayers who were on Buffy's side if he had no other superpowers in S8, I am not sure how this proves anything about the power discrepancy between him and Buffy.

              Let's face it, the characters' combat skills are what the plot need them to be. Trying to make sense of that is pointless.
              Didn't faze me then, doesn't faze me now. Willow having had more power at her disposal than Buffy was true no matter how tough Buffy is compared to a vampire. It still went without saying within the conceit of genre fiction that Twilight would ultimately have to be Buffy's problem to solve, not Willow's, just as Glory and Caleb were. 8.11 would have hardly been the plot advancing thing it was if Twilight just meant "Angel, but in a mask" and that's how he attacked her.
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              • Yes, Buffy was going to defeat with the Big Bad eventually, overpowered or not. The point is that there were other reasons for said Big Bad being overpowered, not just what I mentioned in my previous post but also Joss getting a little too excited about the freedom provided by the comic medium. If it were a story about just Buffy and Angel it could have worked without him being given any new powers.
                Xander: "Willow, you are the best human ever! I adore you! Well, that's the cookies talking, but you rock!"

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                • Originally posted by Jack Shaftoe View Post
                  Yes, Buffy was going to defeat with the Big Bad eventually, overpowered or not. The point is that there were other reasons for said Big Bad being overpowered, not just what I mentioned in my previous post but also Joss getting a little too excited about the freedom provided by the comic medium. If it were a story about just Buffy and Angel it could have worked without him being given any new powers.
                  It's an easy thing to test -- would you be able to buy into a season where a vampire, no special powers, etc, was the Big Bad? I mean, it's easy to type "yes", but I don't think it would be particularly honest. There's a reason they haven't done it since Season 2. I mean, they could fake it up with some truly Sebassis like armies or Grand Admiral Thrawn like machinations I guess, but when push came to physical shove, it would be a let down. That only works in "Gladiator".
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                  • It's an easy thing to test -- would you be able to buy into a season where a vampire, no special powers, etc, was the Big Bad? I mean, it's easy to type "yes", but I don't think it would be particularly honest.
                    Yes. I much prefer vampires as big bads than love interests or cannon fodder. I am weird like that. The supernatural arms race after S3 is not my cup of tea at all. It led to literally dozens of occasions where the Big Bad could have squashed Buffy like a bug but didn't for no reason other than the plot saying so. Give me a vampire or a relatively weak demon as a big bad any day.

                    There's a reason they haven't done it since Season 2.
                    Yes, there is. Doesn't mean it's a good reason.
                    Xander: "Willow, you are the best human ever! I adore you! Well, that's the cookies talking, but you rock!"

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                    • Originally posted by Jack Shaftoe View Post
                      Yes. I much prefer vampires as big bads than love interests or cannon fodder. I am weird like that. The supernatural arms race after S3 is not my cup of tea at all. It led to literally dozens of occasions where the Big Bad could have squashed Buffy like a bug but didn't for no reason other than the plot saying so. Give me a vampire or a relatively weak demon as a big bad any day.
                      Love interests, no, cannon fodder I'm fine with. They dropped "vampire" from Buffy's title in almost every reference other than the title because they realized how disinteresting it could and would become.

                      And maybe it's because I've seen some truly, truly bad examples of a Big Bad not killing heroes just because (I played WoW during Wrath after all) that I don't think they did that bad. For instance, "No Place Like Home", having a building cave in on Glory was a legitimate reason for her pursuit to break off. Or Adam, justified in the plot because it was his plan all along to have her around slaughtering demons for him.

                      Yes, there is. Doesn't mean it's a good reason.
                      It wasn't a bad reason. Escalation is sort of the natural flow of superhero genre fiction. "We carry semiautomatics, they buy automatics. We wear Kevlar, they buy armor-piercing rounds. And you're wearing a mask, jumping off rooftops. Now, take this new guy..."

                      Vampires became and should be for Buffy what your basic muggers became for Batman.
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                      • And maybe it's because I've seen some truly, truly bad examples of a Big Bad not killing heroes just because (I played WoW during Wrath after all) that I don't think they did that bad. For instance, "No Place Like Home", having a building cave in on Glory was a legitimate reason for her pursuit to break off. Or Adam, justified in the plot because it was his plan all along to have her around slaughtering demons for him.
                        Yes, sure there are shows that fail even worse in that respect but so what? Doesn't mean BtVS isn't full of facepalm worthy moments where the bad guy lets the heroes escape for no reason or vice versa. This happened when the villains were vampires too, just not to the farcical extent of when Caleb or Glory were around. Not to mention the worldbuilding was already problematic with one Slayer against "the forces of darkness". When said forces are not only far more numerous but we regularly see individuals that a far stronger than a Slayer it's hard to wonder how the Buffyverse isn't overrun by demons yet, let alone how they managed to even keep the existence of demons a secret for so long.

                        Most importantly, I would take a villain who can't punch as strong as the hero but is cunning any day rather than one who is ridiculously overpowered but also a complete moron. And they have to be morons because otherwise they would win very quickly. A Gwendolyne Post type of villain is more compelling for me than a Caleb type of villain.
                        Xander: "Willow, you are the best human ever! I adore you! Well, that's the cookies talking, but you rock!"

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                        • Edit: All caught up

                          ________

                          Most of the posts since my last one seemed to have veered off into a more general discussion about Buffy vs. Spike in terms of their fighting skills and strength. So, I’m going to put most of my response in two other threads.


                          I made a thread on this subject: Is the Troll Hammer an indication of Buffy’s strength vs. Spike’s strength? https://www.buffyforums.net/sh...ad.php?t=19057

                          Buffy vs. Spike: Strength, Fighting Skills, Durability, etc. https://www.buffyforums.net/sh...ad.php?t=19058




                          TimeTravellingBunny

                          My quote: When does this happen? I assume this happens after 9.10.

                          Obviously not, since Spike left and Buffy remained in San Francisco. I assume it's at some point between 9.04 and 9.05.
                          Spike’s not going to stay gone forever. Anyway, this seems to be another ‘timeline’ problem that the comics have.

                          _________________________________________________

                          The actual right answer is: look at the title of the comic. Buffy is the protagonist and always the one who goes to fight and kill stuff. If Faith were there beside her, it would still be the case.
                          It still doesn’t make much sense in-verse. Another reason is that Spike knows the ship better than Buffy does. He was able to monitor where the alien was, but a bug could have done that as well.



                          KingofCretins

                          My quote: I assume Buffy’s clothing of tank top and short-shorts is because it’s hot and humid on the ship, not that she’s trying to entice Spike; though, it could be both.

                          Her clothing is first and foremost, like everything else in the issue, an homage to the movie Alien, and therein, Ripley spent the entire climax in more or less that outfit.
                          Yes, but that’s not an in-verse reason.

                          My quote: Why isn’t Spike going after the bugpire? Spike is harder to kill than Buffy and Buffy is supposed to be on a vacation.

                          Because Buffy is badder than Spike in every possible way, more or less .
                          You contradicted yourself. Anyway, my point stands: “Why isn’t Spike going after the bugpire? Spike is harder to kill than Buffy and Buffy is supposed to be on a vacation.”

                          My quote: I wonder how the comic was able to use an Alien alien.

                          They didn't; the bug wasn't literally, actually a xenomorph. It very easily could have qualified as fair use as a parody... but, well, it doesn't have to, since Dark Horse already has a license to "Aliens".
                          Interesting; although, having the license doesn’t mean that Dark Horse can use a xenomorph in any comic series unless that is part of the license. Rights to characters is different than rights to ‘properties’.

                          ________________________________________________

                          I doubt even Spike could make an in-text assertion that he can take her without smiling anymore.
                          It depends on what is canon from IDW.

                          Am I just more comfortable with powerful women?
                          This has no relevance to the thread. The topic was why Spike didn’t go after the alien given that Spike’s harder to kill and Buffy was supposed to be on a vacation.



                          Beverly

                          It'd be more plausible for one slayer to take on five vampires alone and win, then it would be for one vampire to take on five slayers alone and win.
                          If were referring to “slayers” as meaning like ‘real Slayers’ like Nikki Wood when alive, Buffy, Kendra when alive, Faith, and Fray.

                          As for who can realistically take a punch (i.e. Spike getting hit upside the head by Joyce), there's always been great inconsistencies in the story wherever the writers saw fit (i.e. Xander getting slapped around by the troll hammer by the big and powerful troll and not sustaining injuries that would have had him end up in a hospital or dead).
                          Olaf wasn’t intending to kill Xander.



                          sueworld

                          Spike's always had to catch her off guard or when she was already injured to defeat her.
                          Wrong. This isn’t true in both “School Hard” (2.03) or “Out of My Mind” (5.04).
                          Last edited by MikeB; 10-10-12, 09:52 AM. Reason: forgot to include the All Caught Up thing.

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