Questions about Season Eight.

[Matt]

In Season 7 The First appeared many times as Warren, but I was just wondering how exactly this was possible if Warren was still alive (albeit without skin)? Surely The First couldn't have taken his form because Amy had saved him during the 4 second window she had?

Or was it that Amy saved a "copy" of Warren and that the actual Warren had been killed?
I didn't understand that bit.

[Josh]

I think Joss answered this question in the Buffy season 8 slay the critics. He said he forgot. LOL.

I can't exactly tell you what he said since I don't remember what issue it was but it was something like "I forgot, OK?". It is just another hole in the series, such as many others.

[Sosa lola]

Warren had said in #4 that "Bored now" was the last sentence he heard in his human life, which implies that Human Warren is dead.

[Jenni Lou]

I think Joss answered this question in the Buffy season 8 slay the critics. He said he forgot. LOL.

I can't exactly tell you what he said since I don't remember what issue it was but it was something like "I forgot, OK?". It is just another hole in the series, such as many others.

Yeah, I also remember reading that.

Warren had said in #4 that "Bored now" was the last sentence he heard in his human life, which implies that Human Warren is dead.

Yeah...the writers are essentially pulling a fanwank.



On a moderator's note, I am going to rename this thread and make it our official questions about s8 thread...since we don't seem to have already.

[Matt]

Warren had said in #4 that "Bored now" was the last sentence he heard in his human life, which implies that Human Warren is dead.

Oh right, I obviously missed that part.
Or just didn't read it properly.

I guess that makes all sense now, but even if he wasn't human, surely he'd still be living?

[Josh]

Oh right, I obviously missed that part.
Or just didn't read it properly.

I guess that makes all sense now, but even if he wasn't human, surely he'd still be living?

There's a diffrence. I think it's like how the first could have be in the image of Buffy. She is alive but somewhere she was dead. I guess Warren isn't really alive. Just... A dead man walking.

[KingofCretins]

Personally I read Warren's remark as being just descriptive -- he no longer thinks of himself as human. We haven't gotten any text yet to imply he's not still, essentially, a human being.

To accommodate Joss' explanation, I tend to think that Warren did, in fact, die from the massive trauma of Willow's attacks, and that Amy resuscitated him -- as one does, not with the whole back from the dead thing. I think he's alive, and the thing that Amy's magic is his skin is basically literally -- she keeps him safe from infection and exposure, things his skin would normally do.

[Matt]

I have another question, well, theory kind of.

In 8.04 Willow's bound to that operating table and her inner-self falls through to that other reality with the 5 beings, I was just wondering what/who they were supposed to be.

At first glance I thought they were supposed to be significant historical figures, mainly because one of them looks kind of like Leonardo Da Vinci's Mona Lisa, but then looking again I thought they looked kind of like Willow, finally I actually thought they could be people in Willow's life, the blue one in one of the shots kind of reminded me of Joyce and the one where it's just an outline reminded me of Buffy, then I thought how the Mona Lisa-ey one looked sort of like Tara and the hairy, werewolf one was clearly Oz.

I was just wondering if anybody knows who or what they were supposed to be? I have that as my theory, but I know it's probably just me over-looking things, especially because I don't know who the tree one could be, but do you know?

[KingofCretins]

The way I interpret them is as representations of parts of her psyche. Or perhaps as things in her mind that tie her in different directions to the magic she accesses. I've also read a very well argued theory that they are actually the five (Chinese) elements -- water, metal, wood, fire, and earth.

It didn't come up in the letter column and I know of no comment or interview that addresses it. I think that, narratively, Joss just wanted to somehow depict A) the damage being done to Willow without straight up blood and guts (the burning people), and B) that she was, in fact, still holding on. I'm not sure those figures will be important again or not. It's not surprising though that, whatever they are there to represent, they take on features that we recognize in people that Willow's had relationships with.

[-beardo-]

Two things:

Thoses things with wilow could possibly be willow herself but different incarnations of willow with different powers as such in her inner psyche, i dont know.

The Warren thing, the way i like to think of it is, that when Willow skinned Warren, his skin died, so the first could take the from of warren because his skin is dead therefore he can be able to make himself like warren, because the thing that he needs to look like warren is the thing that is dead. i hope you guys understand this theory.

[Matt]

The Warren thing, the way i like to think of it is, that when Willow skinned Warren, his skin died, so the first could take the from of warren because his skin is dead therefore he can be able to make himself like warren, because the thing that he needs to look like warren is the thing that is dead. i hope you guys understand this theory.

I do, you mean that The First can look like Warren because Willow took his skin away and the First can therefore use that "dead" skin as a visage because it's still dead.
The same as if, say, Willow had been flayed by Gnarl in Same Time, Same Place the First could've looked like her even if she managed to live?

[-beardo-]

Yea that's exactly what i mean.

[Boltmaiden]

Giles

With the possibility of getting a bunch of "well duh" responses from my fellow posters...I am really confused on Giles' role this season. Is he actually an enemy, or are he and Buffy still wanting the same goals but going by different means to get them?

Originally I thought I was suppose to be confused but reading some posts sparadically here and there about Giles I think I must have missed something.

The reason I say this goes back into season 7, I guess I am on the wrong side when it comes to the breaking up of the scoobies (though kicking her out of her own house was not okay) I felt more for the scoobies than I did for her, I guess you could say I was more team scobbies than team Buffy. No that I like to draw a line, but anyway. Then it seemed like that they were slowly be on the way to making up Buffy asking Giles opinion, Giles thinking all the slayers thing was brilliant...and then another curveball (Season 8).

I see Giles motivation always being that if he can spare her just a little pain, if he can take even just a little burden away from her, that is what he will do, no matter what he has to do to make that a reality. Am I alone in this?

Will someone please help I feel really stupid here.

[tangent]

Don't feel stupid or alone Boltmaiden. Some people think That Giles has gone to the bad, that he's somehow trying to usurp Buffy and grab power for himself. I'm not one of those people though. I think your reading of the Situation is pretty much spot on. Giles has shown right from season 1 that he'll sacrifice himself for Buffy and I think he's doing it again. Taking it on himself to do what Buffy shuldn't have to do (As per his speech to Ben) and taking Faith with him because he see's a bond with her as someone who has crimes to atone for.

Buffy and Giles might not be on the best of terms right now but I think (and sincerely hope) that they'll be reunited in the end. In fact I can see season 8 almost turningf into a bigger, better version of 'The Yoko Factor' with Twilight taking the Spike role.

[Michael]

Hi Boltmaiden,

I am one of those who are deeply suspicious of Giles. Not for a minute do I buy the idea of "dear old Giles" only doing things that Buffy should not have to do.

In "Lies My Parents Told Me" Giles deceived Buffy as part of a plot with Robin Wood to kill Spike. She needed Spike as an invaluable warrior in the battle to save the world from the First Evil.

Robin Wood was putting his own personal grievance against Spike ahead of the world struggle in which Buffy was carrying the main burden. Giles was simply treacherous and IMO was trying to claw back some authority and control for himself.

In Empty Places Giles joined with Wood and others, including the scoobies ,in the mutiny against Buffy, which culminated in the betrayal by Dawn. Faith was manipulated in this scene and Buffy did not hold it against her.

It was Spike who put the stuffing back into the broken hearted Slayer, and they went back to save the mutineers from the disaster of their own making and with Willow worked out the plan that achieved success.

After all that I think that Buffy should have turned her back on the lot of them and walked away--perhaps with Faith--to make a new life for herself.

However, now in Season 8 Giles is conducting secret operations with Faith and refusing to tell Buffy what he is doing. I am not interested in hearing about how he is yet again doing to nasty jobs he wants to spare Buffy. He is secretive and deceitful and there is no reason to doubt that he could be treacherous again. His unsatisfied ego is the problem --it usually is with traitors--but most forum members are too nice to face the truth. I am not nice at all.

What Buffy needs to do is to get Faith away from Giles and then find a way to shut him down on a long term basis.

[Koos]

I am one of those who are deeply suspicious of Giles. Not for a minute do I buy the idea of "dear old Giles" only doing things that Buffy should not have to do.

You could think this about considering past events, though in this case Buffy distrusted Faith who was on a mission for Giles.

It was Spike who put the stuffing back into the broken hearted Slayer, and they went back to save the mutineers from the disaster of their own making and with Willow worked out the plan that achieved success.

What has this Spike related fanwanking nonsense got to do with Giles? Oh wait it's the old let's bash the Scoobies to light Spike's butt fanwanking.

[tangent]

In "Lies My Parents Told Me" Giles deceived Buffy as part of a plot with Robin Wood to kill Spike. She needed Spike as an invaluable warrior in the battle to save the world from the First Evil.

In retrospect yes Spike was valuable; troubnle is that only works if you know what's going to happen. At the time of the ep though he's a dangerous sleeper agent for the first and Giles' decision to take him out of the picture is only taken behind Buffy's back because she doesn't want to hear this. I agree that Wood was more motivated by revenge though.

Giles was simply treacherous and IMO was trying to claw back some authority and control for himself.

This would be more believable if Giles had at any time show any desire for power or control. In fact throughout the series he is seen to encourage the scoobs to be their own people and think for themselves.

However, now in Season 8 Giles is conducting secret operations with Faith and refusing to tell Buffy what he is doing. I am not interested in hearing about how he is yet again doing to nasty jobs he wants to spare Buffy. He is secretive and deceitful and there is no reason to doubt that he could be treacherous again. His unsatisfied ego is the problem --it usually is with traitors--but most forum members are to nice to face the truth. I am not nice at all.

I won't repeat myself as, as you say you're not interested in any other possibilites and have already made your mind up. There is only one time though when i think that Giles has actually actively betrayed Buffy though and that was 'Helpless'.

[Michael]

tangent,
If you deceive a close colleague by conducting a secret operation to get a result which you know your colleague would not like, then you are trying to exercise power beyond your legitimate authority. The logic is inescapable. It is also pretty clear that the person doing it probably has an unsatisfied ego.

Call me old fashioned, but I like colleagues who are loyal, straight, and candid so that we all know where we are.I have been lucky in that department.

Koos,
I don't know what "fanwanking" is but it does not sound like a very nice hobby.

I am not and never have been a fan of Spike.He was a fine villain at the start but the writers threw him away, turning him into a sentimental joke. In s7 he comes good at the end, and he passes the test of loyalty. He helps to save the world which he could not have done if Giles and Wood and had their way.

[stormwreath]

I see Giles motivation always being that if he can spare her just a little pain, if he can take even just a little burden away from her, that is what he will do, no matter what he has to do to make that a reality. Am I alone in this?

I think there's a lot of truth in this, but also that Giles has a nasty habit of doing what he thinks is best for Buffy without consulting her. Essentially, he's being paternal (or even patriarchal); he still sees himself as her father-figure and she as the daughter who hasn't quite grown up yet.

As for S8 specifically, it's clear they've quarrelled but we haven't been given a reason why as yet. The theory I prefer is that they had a major disagreement over the best method of funding the Slayer Army; Giles refused to agree to bank robbery as a potential surce of income, and Buffy replied "Can you think of a better idea? Well? I'm waiting..." and went ahead and did it anyway. And so Giles thinks she's become unreliable, and no longer fully trusts her, so he works independently as far as he can and doesn't reveal all he knows.

[vampmogs]

Call me old fashioned, but I like colleagues who are loyal, straight, and candid so that we all know where we are.I have been lucky in that department.

Why do you view them strictly as colleagues and not as two people who care deeply for eachother, and share a very father-daughter relationship?

He helps to save the world which he could not have done if Giles and Wood and had their way.

If it weren't for Giles Spike would have never made it to 'Chosen.' If you remember Giles is the only one to make any efforts to de-trigger Spike from the First's control. It is he or went searching for the magical stone, and it was he who brought it to Sunnydale which gave Spike the opportunity to de-trigger himself. Buffy made no efforts, the potentials and Anya were right to be angry with her that she let Spike stay in their home whilst he could be triggered to attack any of them at any moment.