Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

The Decline of the Buffyverse Comics:

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • The Decline of the Buffyverse Comics:

    This is mostly a response to this thread https://www.buffyforums.net/sh...nd-News/page42 from my post, post #830 https://www.buffyforums.net/sh...l=1#post708264, on.

    I actually responded up to post #984 before realizing that given I don't consider Season 10 can actually be canon and that I'm very unlikely to consider that Season 11 can actually be canon, I should stop responding to Season 10 stuff. I'm actually going to re-watch BtVS and AtS while reading and responding to all the post in those threads by probably making new threads for major issues.



    Season 10 is so atrocious simply because it doesn't make sense if it is actually canon.


    * Some continue to talk about Season 10 because some continue to insist that it is definitely canon. I maintain that there are simply too many problems with Season 10 in terms of canon that Season 10 cannot actually be canon. It is rather silly to dismiss the canon from the TV series and the canon from pre-Season 10 in order to support the canon from Season 10. More seem to acknowledge that the ?canon' of Season 10 doesn't even ?fit' with the earlier ?canon' of Season 10.

    For example, D'Hoffryn has never been portrayed as powerhungry. Yet Season 10? Pre-Season 10, Dracula had some kind of rivalry with Spike, he wants Buffy as his bride, and he wants to be BFFs with Xander. Suddenly, he wants admiration from all vampires? This from a guy so low-profile that Giles didn't even know Dracula actually existed. Season 10 almost acts as if Buffy and Spike didn't see each other post-"Seeing Red" (B 6.19) until Spike shows up in BtVS S8. Etc.


    * Angel's becoming AngelTwilight and doing what he did can make sense. Spike's having a spaceship filled with an alien bug species can make sense. The actual major flaw of Season 9 ? aside from Spike's leaving San Francisco for no good reason ? is how characters' regard Angel. But Season 10 has problems that directly affect the canon of BtVS S1 through AtS s5. Giles's Season 10 magical abilities cannot make sense. Faith's suddenly being able to fight relatively on par with Eldre Koh cannot make sense.



    Season 10 is also atrocious because of relationship issues.

    * Spike seems to have forgotten that Sophronia and Lavinia Fairweather exist. Buffy could easily be made immortal.


    * If any of the relevant IDW stuff is canon, Fred/Illyria would much rather be around Spike than be around Angel and Faith.


    * I consider it bizarre that anyone who actually likes and who actually understands Spike would want Spike/Dylan to happen. Depending on what is actually canon, Spike would prefer Buffy/Spike, Spike/Drusilla, Spike/Beck, Spike/Morgan, and Spike/Spider all above Spike/Dylan.


    * Dawn the rest of the Scoobies seem to have almost no problems with Xander's major betrayal in BtVS S9.


    * For many reasons, the Angel crossover made no sense. Dracula would have been contacted before Angel would. And if ?muscle' was needed, Eldre Koh would more likely have been contacted.



    Season 10 made Xander and Dawn almost completely irrelevant yet forced them into the comics.

    * This is another one of those canon issues. After "Becoming Part II" (B 2.22), Xander among the Scoobies regularly was the most useless in regular vampire killing. Buffy in "End of Days" (B 7.21) didn't want Dawn unnecessarily fighting. Each New Rules Vampire is relatively more formidable that the First Turok-Han that Buffy faced. An early Issue of Season 10 displayed that Willow, Dracula, Spike, and Buffy COMBINED had relative difficulty killing several NRVs. It makes around zero sense that Xander and Dawn would be allowed to fight and it makes even less sense that both are still alive.



    None of the characters in post-"Sleeper" (B 7.08) would consider the attempted rape to still be an issue in the Buffy/Spike relationship.

    * Again, Season 10 is written as if BtVS S7 never happened.




    KingofCretins

    * In "Selfless" (B 7.05), D'Hoffryn tells Buffy that he would simply teleport away before she could actually fight him. The power he shows in BtVS S10 is certainly never hinted at during the TV Buffyverse and pre-Season 10.

    ________________________________________________

    * The abortion storyline made news. The actual problem with robot storyline is how it affected the Buffy/Spike relationship. Spike left a blackout drunk Buffy alone in her unlocked room. That fact is never even discussed in the series. Buffy's being a robot somehow convinces Spike to leave Buffy until the very end of BtVS S9 and he largely only comes back in BtVS S9 to try to help save Dawn.

    Somehow second to that is the problem of the idea of Buffy's essentially being raped and seriously deciding whether she should have go through with a pregnancy when she has almost no idea whom the father might be.


    * The actual problem with post-BtVS 8.40 is mainly how the aftermath of AngelTwilight is dealt with. That encompasses almost all the problems of post-BtVS 8.40 including the Buffy robot problem.

    ________________________________________________

    Season 9 was wall to wall PSAs and using the Buffyverse to make unguarded political statements.
    Season 9 had the message that it is a good idea to abort a child when one has around no idea whom the father might be, when one is not financially capable of caring for the child, and all the other problems Buffy had.

    The Buffyverse has made ?political statements' throughout the TV series and in BtVS S8.

    ________________________________________________

    Angel could be said to have peaked in terms of personal growth around the end of 2.03, right before Darla showed back up in his life.
    I disagree. Much to perhaps most of AtS s1 through AtS s4 is because of Jasmine. But Angel had personal growth during AtS s5 and he was tolerable in AtF. The main problem with Angel in BtVS S8 is that while in Twilight he was eager to have the entire world destroyed in order to have Buffy to himself. Uncursed Angel was never at that level of evil. Even the Acathla plan at least he knew Drusilla supported the plan and probably the demons of the ?Earth dimension' would benefit. Even Glory's plan would simply make more dimensions ?hell dimensions'. It wouldn't actually destroy an entire world/possibly an entire dimension.

    ________________________________________________

    * Regarding BtVS S8, sales would have dropped sooner if Buffy/Xander had actually happened. In Buffyverse, Buffy didn't get with Xander in BtVS S4, Principal Robin Wood immediately had more of a chance with Buffy than Xander did, and Buffy would rather fantasize about A-B-S threesomes and have sex with a fellow Slayer than have sex with Xander.

    ________________________________________________

    * Buffy didn't and doesn't have ?real' actual sexual feelings for Xander. She was simply desperate enough to have sex with a male that she decided she wanted to have sex with Xander rather than go more years without sex with a male.

    ________________________________________________

    * Buffy in early Season 9 was portrayed as having been blackout drunk when she had sex with someone ? she wasn't merely ?intoxicated'.



    betta

    * What are the sales nowadays? Below 10K? Season 10 didn't even follow the canon from earlier in Season 10.

    ________________________________________________

    * D'Hoffryn is the vengeance demon to makes other vengeance demons. D'Hoffryn after "Selfless" (B 7.05) sent assassins after Anya. It made around zero sense that the Scoobies would ever trust D'Hoffryn and would ever give him any power or say regarding the Rules of Magic.

    ________________________________________________

    * The AR was ?dealt with' certainly by "Bring on the Night" (B 7.10). Buffy in the Hellmouth in "Chosen" (B 7.22) seemed to be willing to die with Spike rather than leave. Since "Showtime" (B 7.11) there has been around zero ambiguity regarding Buffy's love for Spike. What is ambiguous is Spike's feelings about a ?long-term' relationship with Buffy and that mostly revolves around he being immortal and her not being immortal.

    The Fairweather sisters ? like sane Drusilla did with Spike/Drusilla ? provide the perfect solution to the Buffy/Spike relationship ? make Buffy unaging and suddenly there are zero impediments to the Buffy/Spike relationship.



    Stoney

    * It seems largely that Joss's involvement in Season 10 started and ended at the Season 10 Writers' Summit and the same will be true of Season 11. At least for AtF, Joss Whedon wrote a very detailed outline and at least with IDW's Spike miniseries that he supposedly approved off all of Willow's lines.

    Yet bizarrely it seems many posters want to ignore the Spike/Spider stuff, ignore the Spike/Drusilla stuff and yet some posters insist everything in Season 10 is fine and doesn't contradict previously established canon even though it clearly does.


    * Spike's BtVS S9 miniseries doesn't even gel with his run in A&F S9.

    ________________________________________________

    * The readership of the comics nowadays is likely less than 1/10th of what it was in early BtVS S8. It is clear that many posters stopped reading sometime during Season 9 and it is clear that more stopped reading Season 10. I stopped reading Season 10 many Issues ago but I still glance through the Issues. The canon doesn't even flow from earlier in Season 10 when the only major problems were why Giles suddenly was so magically powerful, why zompires (and NRVs?) could so easily be killed by bullets, and the artwork for Giles's and Spike's houses don't seem to gel with previously established canon.

    ________________________________________________

    Faith only dated Wood because Buffy had a date with him and only stays around Angel because she wishes she were Buffy.
    Faith dated Wood because she couldn't date Spike and Wood was the next best option. The problem with A&F is Faith was greatly lessened because of her support of Angel. Faith had one of the best arcs ? and perhaps the best arc ? of BtVS S8 and then her popularity is used to support the sales of Angel's post-BtVS S8 comics.

    ________________________________________________

    * It made very little sense that Buffy and Spike didn't immediately become roommates. Spike has never wanted to be mere friends with Buffy. It makes almost zero sense that Spike would have any insecurity regarding his relationship with Buffy. She clearly prefers being with him to being with any human. She clearly prefers him to Angel. She prefers being with him than being able to have children with someone. She held a torch for years even though Spike stayed away from her for over a year and then left her for months and then again left her for months. After people are okay with vampires, it makes very little sense that Buffy and Spike aren't married.

    ________________________________________________

    Having come to fandom so late, I hadn't watched the show until it had finished and the final issues of S8 were going out, discussion and speculation wasn't something I'd had before.
    Yeah, some of us have been discussing the Buffyverse for over a decade. I first started in 2005 C.E. because I was bored in Madison, Wisconsin and wasn't a gamer and it was a good way to ?kill time'. On every Board, ?new blood' is needed to keep discussions going if one is discussing things from the TV series. The comics provided new material but new material is only as good if such material is worth discussing. The comics have gotten to the point in which most posters and most potential posters consider them not discussion-worthy.

    ________________________________________________

    * Buffy already in "Never Leave Me" (B 7.08) was trying to ?bifurcate' Souled Spike from Unsouled Spike. Spike simply refused to have her consider that Souled Spike and Unsouled Spike were two different beings.



    a thing of evil

    * Spike in BtVS S9 left because of Buffy and returned because of Buffy. Spike in Season 10 stayed because of Buffy and BtVS 10.01 ?already' had strong Buffy/Spike hints.

    Yes, the Scoobies are Spike's friends. Yes, he likes them to an extent. But it is still mostly about Buffy/Spike.

    ________________________________________________

    * Giles was brought back because of Buffy/Angel.

    ________________________________________________

    Season 10 has some crazy good lines and exchanges too. For example, that So...you evil? line from issue 13 completely destroyed me!
    The "So? you evil?" line would only be considered good by someone who had completely forgotten the Buffy/Spike relationship from BtVS S2 through BtVS S9 or who can completely ignore it in favor of wanting to think that Buffy could think an "Innocence" (B 2.14) situation was possible with Spike. That line is one of the main "Season 10 cannot be canon" things.

    ________________________________________________

    * In Buffyverse, Buffy/Angel has been ?pandered to' much more than Buffy/Spike has.


    * Regarding the ?crypt door' scene in "Dead Things" (B 6.13), how is that ?worse' than Buffy's sensing Angel in "Pangs" (B 4.08) yet not knowing it was Angel? At least Spike knew it was Buffy.

    ________________________________________________

    * Xander's not over Buffy to the point that he dated her fake sister.



    HardlyThere

    * BtVS S8 discussion increased after the Angel reveal.

    ________________________________________________

    * "Chosen" (B 7.22) wasn't fan service, it is what would have happened. Buffy from the beginning of BtVS S7 considered it was likely that she might die in the Big Fight. In "Touched" (B 7.20) when she awakes, she looks on the other side of her. She probably was dreaming of being with both Spike and Angel and ultimately that is what she would want. She kisses Angel and gives some hope for a Buffy/Angel future largely because she continues to be unsure of Spike's feelings for her. Spike is still immortal. He doesn't want to become ?old marrieds' with anyone. Drusilla is still around. Buffy doesn't think that Spike would still be with her when she is 50 years old.

    Because Spike witnesses and overhears the Buffy/Angel stuff, he decides to die rather than be with Buffy.

    Season 9 had the perfect opportunity for Spike/Drusilla to fully happen again because Drusilla was no longer the Dru from "Crush" (B 5.14) (and the IDW Spike series) that Spike couldn't be with anymore. Instead, Spike never gets to see that Dru and Dru was used as simply another person who forgives Angel.

    Dracula is now pretty much a quasi-Scooby. Season 10 has people being even more okay with vampires than they were in BtVS S8. Buffy and Spike still aren't fully connected and apparently as of BtVS 10.29 have still not ever been on a romantic date (or were in some Dark Horse 2016 sampler that probably very few have seen).

    ________________________________________________

    There was really no need to bring Drac back, either, or constantly sticking Harmony in.
    Dracula's been a very powerful ally since BtVS S8. What made around zero sense was bringing Angel back in BtVS S10 when clearly Dracula would have been brought in during such a situation. Harmony has Harmony's Rules and was able to broker a deal between the Scoobies and the New Rules Vampires. Who else could have credibly done that?



    Guy

    Hey, I'm new here I hope it's OK if I butt in on this argument...?
    That is always more than okay. This Board needs more posters, needs more ?regular posters', etc. not fewer.

    ________________________________________________

    * This thread details the post-BtVS 8.39 Angel problem: https://www.buffyforums.net/sh...-after-BtVS-S8.

    ________________________________________________

    * Angel didn't learn any lessons in Season 9. At the end, he considers that Giles's resurrections means that Buffy/Angel is still a possibility. In Season 10, he considers that Buffy/Spike is not likely to last and that Buffy/Angel will perhaps still happen.

    ________________________________________________

    * Faith's never been a world-ending danger.

    ________________________________________________

    * That Angel wants to attack Spike and perhaps kill Spike is not a good thing for Angel and is in fact a reason to kill Angel.


    * Angel post-BtVS S8 is responsible for Magic Town.

    ________________________________________________

    * BtVS S8 Buffy-Angel is not comparable to BtVS S6 Buffy/Spike and is not comparable to AtS s4 Wesley/Lilah.

    ________________________________________________

    * Based on ?the text', BtVS S7 more than proved Buffy was in love with Spike, that Spike was more important to her than essentially everyone else combined, and that Buffy would have died in the Hellmouth with him if he didn't convince her to leave. Joss Whedon in BtVS S8 has Buffy thinking about "That sex.", has Buffy not having sex since "Chosen" (B 7.22) until BtVS 8.11, has SuperBuffy daydreaming about having sex with Spike ? when Buffy is still very likely being ?influenced' by Twilight --, etc.


    * Regarding the Space Sex, I remember only a relatively few die-hard Angel fans and only a relatively few die-hard Bangel fans ignored the glowification that happened before that happened. I remember most readers reasoned that Angel raped Buffy and wanted to know just how much the glow affected Buffy.


    * Readership has plummeted since BtVS 8.40 and lessened further after Season 9. BtVS's comic sales have always been above AtS's comic sales.

    ________________________________________________

    * Angel's characterization and Faith's characterization in A&F S9 are both atrocious.

    ________________________________________________

    * From at-latest "School Hard" (B 2.03) on, Spike considers himself superior to Angel.



    American Aurora

    * William did ?choose' Drusilla much like Liam ?chose' Darla except more so. In ways, one can easily argue that William and Angel more chose Drusilla and Darla respectively than Buffy chose Angel.


    * Season 10 possibly happens over 10 years after "Chosen" (B 7.22). How much more ?slowly' could the Buffy/Spike relationship have gone? If Spike didn't die in the Hellmouth, Buffy and Spike would have been together since "Chosen".

    ________________________________________________

    * The ?renewal' ? it never really went away ? of the Buffy/Spike relationship was accomplished within the first Issues of Season 10. Spike stayed in San Francisco and Buffy and Spike are ?close'. It made almost zero sense Buffy and Spike were not sharing a room in the apartment complex.

    ________________________________________________

    * Season 10 is much worse than Season 9 and at least there is no reasonable reason why Buffy should kill Billy.



    TimeTravellingBunny

    * The Buffyverse fandom (at least during BtVS S7) having been around half Buffy/Angel fans and around half Buffy/Spike fans includes all the AtS who never watched BtVS S5 and the crossover audience was said to be around 20%. During AtS s5 and afterward the fandom is majority Buffy/Spike fans.

    The idea of Angel/Cordy was so unpopular among AtS viewers ? who the vast majority obviously wanted Buffy/Angel ? that the writers couldn't even actually have Angel/Cordy in the series.


    * "The Girl in Question" (A 5.20) wasn't about ?mocking ?shippers', it was about trying to get Spike and Angel past the issue of Buffy/Spike vs. Buffy/Angel so that Spike and Angel would be entirely focused on the upcoming battle and not ?Who gets Buffy'.

    ________________________________________________

    Angelus is smart, a tactician, able to design and carry out very intricate plans how to frak up people he hates/has decided to target for whatever reason and how to cause them emotional pain
    Angel killed Drusilla's family and almost certainly raped her before siring her. Before that, he tried to convince her that she was an evil thing. Angel killed Jenny Calender. Angel in BtVS S2 flirted with Drusilla. Where in the Buffyverse is this "tactician, able to design and carry out very intricate plans" Angel?

  • #2
    You don't decide what's canon and what's not - the copyright holders do. I get that you don't like season 9 or season 10 and that's your right of course but reading through your post I don't understand what's the problem - most of your complains seem outlandish to me or are complete non-issues. The way I see it you don't like the comics because they don't do exactly what you would like to see.

    Man, you'll never get entertained with such an attitude

    Anyway, I'll give you an example. You say that Buffy could easily be made immortal. Dude, no. The sisters are powerful witches who put all of their focus into preserving their youths, making deals with demons and whatnot. Buffy can't even float her own ass. And who says that she even wants to be immortal in the first place?

    Comment


    • #3
      Well, that's a depressing title.

      Originally posted by MikeB View Post

      * Some continue to talk about Season 10 because some continue to insist that it is definitely canon. I maintain that there are simply too many problems with Season 10 in terms of canon that Season 10 cannot actually be canon. It is rather silly to dismiss the canon from the TV series and the canon from pre-Season 10 in order to support the canon from Season 10. More seem to acknowledge that the ‘canon’ of Season 10 doesn’t even ‘fit’ with the earlier ‘canon’ of Season 10.
      I think that season 10 makes perfect sense. Well, not PERFECT sense, obviously, but about as much sense as any season of Buffy. You can always find logic fails in stories, but I don't think that season 10 has any logic fails in the things that count.

      For example, D’Hoffryn has never been portrayed as powerhungry. Yet Season 10…
      He's an evil demon lord, so, duh. He certainly has a cruel streak (hello, vengeance demon), and given that he's the LEADER of the vengeance demons, it makes sense that he'd want more power. Why did he want to recruit Willow in season 4, if not to exploit her power? Also, again - he's an EVIL DEMON, so it's really not a stretch that he'd be power-hungry. I was actually more puzzled in the ealier issues of the season, when it seemed like D'hoffryn was just a nice, albeit cold, politician. D'hoffryn makes a lot more sense as a character after the reveal in 10.25.

      Pre-Season 10, Dracula had some kind of rivalry with Spike, he wants Buffy as his bride, and he wants to be BFFs with Xander. Suddenly, he wants admiration from all vampires? This from a guy so low-profile that Giles didn’t even know Dracula actually existed.
      Dracula wanted people to adore him since at least 'Antique' (in 'Tales of the Vampires'). Wanting EVERYONE to adore him is not a big leap from wanting Xander to adore him. It really makes perfect sense.

      As for the "he used to be low-profile" thing - he seemingly stopped caring about being low-profile when Buffy beat him in 5x01, which apparently sent him into a sort of vampire mid-life crisis.

      Season 10 almost acts as if Buffy and Spike didn’t see each other post-“Seeing Red” (B 6.19) until Spike shows up in BtVS S8. Etc.
      No it's not. Season 10 is just opening old wounds, and that's a good thing. It's like in 'Selfless', when Buffy suddenly brought the "I killed Angel" issue up again, after not talking about it for years. Some wounds never fully heal.

      Giles’s Season 10 magical abilities cannot make sense.
      Sure it makes sense. Giles did magic in the show too, so it's not like he was completely magicless before. In season 10 his magic abilities are significantly stronger, and the season explains exactly why - because as a kid, Giles has a new chance to hone his natural magic skills, that he originally neglected after the Eyghon thing. Seems logical to me. It's a retcon, perhaps, but it's a good, logical retcon.

      Faith’s suddenly being able to fight relatively on par with Eldre Koh cannot make sense.
      Why not? Buffy seemed to be on about the same level of fighting as Koh in 'Guarded', maybe slightly weaker, and Faith is about as strong as Buffy, so it makes perfect sense that Faith and Koh would fight on relatively equal terms.

      * Spike seems to have forgotten that Sophronia and Lavinia Fairweather exist. Buffy could easily be made immortal.
      I'm guessing that Buffy wouldn't be into that. Buffy isn't a big fan of unnecessary magic, generally. And I think Spike is aware of that (Spike: "That's the thing about magic. There's always consequences. Always").

      * If any of the relevant IDW stuff is canon, Fred/Illyria would much rather be around Spike than be around Angel and Faith.
      Fred knew Angel for 3 years as part of Angel investigations. She knew Spike for, like, 7-10 months (if we assume that season 5 of AtS took place over the course of roughly one year. I assume). Makes perfect sense that Fred would want to be with Angel.

      * I consider it bizarre that anyone who actually likes and who actually understands Spike would want Spike/Dylan to happen. Depending on what is actually canon, Spike would prefer Buffy/Spike, Spike/Drusilla, Spike/Beck, Spike/Morgan, and Spike/Spider all above Spike/Dylan.
      The story never seems to place Dylan as a real love interest for Spike. She's mostly there to present a certain perspective to Spike and Buffy, and that's it.

      * Dawn the rest of the Scoobies seem to have almost no problems with Xander’s major betrayal in BtVS S9.
      Yeah, that was a little too easy. That's a problem that started in season 9, though, when Buffy forgave him so easily.

      * For many reasons, the Angel crossover made no sense. Dracula would have been contacted before Angel would. And if ‘muscle’ was needed, Eldre Koh would more likely have been contacted.
      Yeah, that's a problem. I still enjoyed the crossover a lot, though.

      Season 10 made Xander and Dawn almost completely irrelevant yet forced them into the comics.

      * This is another one of those canon issues. After “Becoming Part II” (B 2.22), Xander among the Scoobies regularly was the most useless in regular vampire killing. Buffy in “End of Days” (B 7.21) didn’t want Dawn unnecessarily fighting. Each New Rules Vampire is relatively more formidable that the First Turok-Han that Buffy faced. An early Issue of Season 10 displayed that Willow, Dracula, Spike, and Buffy COMBINED had relative difficulty killing several NRVs. It makes around zero sense that Xander and Dawn would be allowed to fight and it makes even less sense that both are still alive.
      That was true of the show too. The fact that Buffy took regular humans to slay with her never really made sense, but I accepted it because it was fun and made for great stories. Season 10 is no different. And the scoobies seem to struggle more with the new vamps, which makes perfect sense.

      None of the characters in post-“Sleeper” (B 7.08) would consider the attempted rape to still be an issue in the Buffy/Spike relationship.
      I disagree. The scoobies know that Spike didn't have a soul when he tried to rape Buffy, which clears him of the blame for his previous actions... But some emotional scars always remain.

      * Again, Season 10 is written as if BtVS S7 never happened.
      Disagree to the amount of ten.




      That is always more than okay. This Board needs more posters, needs more ‘regular posters’, etc. not fewer.
      Thanks!


      * Angel didn’t learn any lessons in Season 9. At the end, he considers that Giles’s resurrections means that Buffy/Angel is still a possibility. In Season 10, he considers that Buffy/Spike is not likely to last and that Buffy/Angel will perhaps still happen.
      Angel DID learn lessons in season 9. His main lesson was that he's not more important than anyone else, and that the world doesn't necessarily need him to keep on spinning. In the end of season 9, Alasdair offered Whistler's hat to Angel, and asked him who would fill Whistler's role of keeping the balance. Angel rejects the hat and says "No one. We'll have to do that for ourselves". I think that's a VERY big lesson for Angel.

      And of course Angel is still hung up on Buffy. He'll probably be hung up on her for as long as she lives. That doesn't mean that he can't change in other areas.

      * Faith’s never been a world-ending danger.
      Neither is Angel, after the seed is smashed.

      And actually, Faith WAS a world-ending threat, when she was helping the Mayor to ascend.

      * That Angel wants to attack Spike and perhaps kill Spike is not a good thing for Angel and is in fact a reason to kill Angel.
      Angel attacked Spike when under Archeus' influence, and Spike attacked Buffy when under Archeus' influence. If Spike shouldn't be killed for it, then Angel shouldn't be killed for it either.

      * Angel post-BtVS S8 is responsible for Magic Town.
      No, he's not. Whistler, Pearl and Nash are responsible for Magic-town. Angel did everything in his power to stop them.


      * BtVS S8 Buffy-Angel is not comparable to BtVS S6 Buffy/Spike and is not comparable to AtS s4 Wesley/Lilah.
      I don't understand - this is a response to what, exactly? I don't see what this has to do with season 10 or the Buffy comics.

      * Based on ‘the text’, BtVS S7 more than proved Buffy was in love with Spike, that Spike was more important to her than essentially everyone else combined, and that Buffy would have died in the Hellmouth with him if he didn’t convince her to leave. Joss Whedon in BtVS S8 has Buffy thinking about “That sex.”, has Buffy not having sex since “Chosen” (B 7.22) until BtVS 8.11, has SuperBuffy daydreaming about having sex with Spike – when Buffy is still very likely being ‘influenced’ by Twilight --, etc.
      1) I'd say that season 7 tried to keep the "who does Buffy love?" question as un-answered as possible, and that many different fans interpret Buffy's feelings in season 7 in VASTLY different ways.
      2) I personally believe that Buffy loved Spike in 'Chosen'.
      3) I absolutely do NOT agree that "Spike was more important to her than essentially everyone else combined". I'm not even sure if she loved Angel or Spike more at that point, and I say that as a huge fan of the Buffy/Spike couple.
      4) I don't understand what this has to do with season 10?

      * Regarding the Space Sex, I remember only a relatively few die-hard Angel fans and only a relatively few die-hard Bangel fans ignored the glowification that happened before that happened. I remember most readers reasoned that Angel raped Buffy and wanted to know just how much the glow affected Buffy.
      Again, I don't understand what this has to do with season 10. And if anything, Buffy and Angel were BOTH raped by Twilight at that point.

      * Readership has plummeted since BtVS 8.40 and lessened further after Season 9. BtVS’s comic sales have always been above AtS’s comic sales.
      Well, yeah. And I'm pretty sure that Buffy readership have been declining endlessly since 8.01. In fact, if we count the show, then 'Buffy' has been in a steady, never-ending decline since 'Graduation Day'.


      * Angel’s characterization and Faith’s characterization in A&F S9 are both atrocious.


      * From at-latest “School Hard” (B 2.03) on, Spike considers himself superior to Angel.
      I'd say that this is just a facade. I think that Spike always had an inferiority complex about Angel. And just an inferiority complex in general.
      Last edited by Guy; 04-08-16, 06:40 PM.
      Come on, I'm not a dog. I'm talking through the dog. He was nearby. I am a power without name, from a realm far above your petty-- Hey! Balls!
      HAHNANUMMANUMMA-SLURP-MMNN... Ho! Wait! Wait! Whoah! I can't help it! I'm housed in this animal. It's complicated!

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by MikeB View Post
        TimeTravellingBunny

        * The Buffyverse fandom (at least during BtVS S7) having been around half Buffy/Angel fans and around half Buffy/Spike fans includes all the AtS who never watched BtVS S5 and the crossover audience was said to be around 20%. During AtS s5 and afterward the fandom is majority Buffy/Spike fans.


        The idea of Angel/Cordy was so unpopular among AtS viewers ? who the vast majority obviously wanted Buffy/Angel ? that the writers couldn't even actually have Angel/Cordy in the series.
        According to what? In what world did that happen?! How is it in any way "obvious" that "the vast majority" of AtS viewers wanted Buffy/Angel?! That doesn't even make any sense - because, if that's what they wanted, they sure were watching the wrong show! AtS made it pretty clear already in the second part of season 1 that Buffy was peripheral to the story the show was going to be telling, that Angel had his own story in LA, and that there isn't going to be any more Bangel on the show. Buffy was almost entirely irrelevant to the storylines of seasons 2, 3 and 4, and only marginally relevant to season 5 - and that's just because Spike was on the show. Even that was more about Angel's relationship with Spike than about Buffy herself.

        The idea that the writers "couldn't have Angel/Cordy" because it was so unpopular strikes me as extremely unlikely. It's something that no one else seems to believe, other than yourself. Personally, I'm apathetic to that ship, but from everything I've seen in the fandom, Angel/Cordy is one of the fandom's most popular ships, about as popular as Bangel. Now, most fans hate what the show eventually did with Cordelia, having her possessed by Jasmine, having Jasmine-possessed Cordy sleep with Connor, and then killing her off. But that's clearly not because they hated the idea of Angel/Cordy.

        Most people I know who are actual fans of AtS, rather than just fans of Angel from BtVS, don't even care about Bangel, and think that dragging it back into the story in season 5 was entirely unnecessary. Some of them liked the idea of Angel/Cordy, some of them don't, and find his relationship with Darla more interesting, some don't care about his romantic ships, but most would agree that Angel's relationships with Connor, Darla, Cordelia and other members of his team, and even Spike and Faith, were much more important to AtS Angel (after the first several episodes of season 1) and the plot of the show, than Buffy was.

        The reason the writers did what they did was because Charisma Carpenter got pregnant and waited too long to tell them, so they had to change their plans for the season... and Whedon seems to have gotten angry with her.

        Or maybe you think that they did a poll and decided that having Angel date a new character called Nina would be so much more popular?

        * "The Girl in Question" (A 5.20) wasn't about ?mocking ?shippers', it was about trying to get Spike and Angel past the issue of Buffy/Spike vs. Buffy/Angel so that Spike and Angel would be entirely focused on the upcoming battle and not ?Who gets Buffy'.
        Angel and Spike are not real people. They didn't need to "get past the issue of Buffy/Spike vs Buffy/Angel", especially since they wouldn't have even had that supposed issue unless the writers decided to give them that issue. Angel had actually been pretty much over Buffy since season 1. And if they could have Spike do things like fail to tell Buffy he's alive, tell Andrew to hide this fact from her, and remain in LA with Angel instead of going to see her (which all made very little sense beyond the fact that the writers needed to keep Spike on the show), they could have also have him not obsess about Buffy 2 episodes before the big series finale. And while Angel and Spike had a few arguments about Buffy in early part of season 5, at this point they were more likely to be seen arguing about cavemen and astronauts than about her. It doesn't make sense to say that the episode was needed to have the characters get over an issue, when it was that same episode that decided to give them that issue in the first place.

        Angel killed Drusilla's family and almost certainly raped her before siring her. Before that, he tried to convince her that she was an evil thing. Angel killed Jenny Calender. Angel in BtVS S2 flirted with Drusilla. Where in the Buffyverse is this "tactician, able to design and carry out very intricate plans" Angel?
        ...And your point is?

        Angel did all he did to Drusilla as a part of a plan to drive her insane and then sire her. He did all he did to Buffy and her friends because he similarly wanted to terrorize and torture Buffy. He killed Jenny to prevent her from resouling him, but then he arranged for Giles to find her just so he could mentally torture him, and make Buffy feel terrible as well. He murdered Theresa and sired her just as a way to torment Buffy. None of these were impulsive acts done in the heat of the moment. It's not the Varys/Littlefinger long game level of planning that lasts multiple years, but it is the Tywin Lannister "I will now f&ck up the people who have pissed me off" level of planning.
        You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

        Comment


        • #5
          a thing of evil

          You don't decide what's canon and what's not - the copyright holders do.
          If I remember correctly, the copyright holders of BtVS are 20th Century Fox Entertainment and the Kuzuis.

          Buffyverse canon is determined by Joss Whedon, but it seems since sometime in Season 9 that he's not involved much with the comics.

          However, if something cannot be canon that means it cannot be canon. Later parts of Season 10 don't even follow earlier parts of Season 10.


          * Buffy was brought back to life-twice. She's apparently the first Slayer in history to be brought back to life. In "Get it Done" (B 7.15), she's offered enough power to be able to kill all the Turok-han in the Hellmouth. In BtVS S8, she's SuperBuffy. The comics could easily have found a way to make her immortal.

          Buffy would want to be immortal. She no longer wants to die. She wants to be with Spike to the point that she's willing to give up having children.



          Guy

          * D'Hoffryn in BtVS S4 saw that Willow had the potential to be a vengeance-demon. He wasn't recruiting for a personal army.

          - D'Hoffryn was so relatively unassuming that everyone is fine with him being at the Xander-Anya wedding and Willow in "Selfless" (B 7.05) considered that he would help with the Anya situation.

          Dracula wanted people to adore him since at least 'Antique' (in 'Tales of the Vampires').
          Dracula wanted respect from Buffy and the other 2 Slayers.

          Wanting EVERYONE to adore him is not a big leap from wanting Xander to adore him. It really makes perfect sense.
          No, that makes around zero sense. Dracula could hyno-beam almost anyone. He specifically wanted Buffy as his ?bride' and he specifically wanted Xander as a friend.

          As for the "he used to be low-profile" thing - he seemingly stopped caring about being low-profile when Buffy beat him in 5x01, which apparently sent him into a sort of vampire mid-life crisis.
          Dracula is low-profile in BtVS S8.


          * Season 10 wasn't opening up ?old wounds' in the Buffy/Spike relationship. The issues Season 10 addressed had already been fully ?dealt with' before the middle of BtVS S7.


          * There is NOTHING logical about Giles's Season 10 magical abilities.


          * Buffy never fought relatively on par with Eldre Koh; the comics make clear that Dracula is significantly more powerful than she is.


          * Buffy is currently one of the least-powerful members of the Scooby Gang. Why would she pass up being immortal? The only reason she declined the Shadow Men's offer is because she didn't want to be less human than demon; but when she sees the threat, she considers she made a mistake by declining the offer.


          * You consider Buffy forgave Xander too easily regarding his betrayal in BtVS S9, yet you have no problems with how Angel is regarded post-BtVS 8.39?


          * Pre-BtVS S10, it made sense for Buffy to bring the Scoobies slaying with her. They were mostly fighting regular vampires. And the Scoobies did have the ability to kill a regular vampire. Again: "Each New Rules Vampire is relatively more formidable that the First Turok-Han that Buffy faced. An early Issue of Season 10 displayed that Willow, Dracula, Spike, and Buffy COMBINED had relative difficulty killing several NRVs."

          If Joss Whedon had the Turok-han in "Chosen" (B 7.22) be as powerful as the First Turok-han, probably only Willow, Buffy, and Faith would have survived the fight.


          * My quote: "None of the characters in post-"Sleeper" (B 7.08) would consider the attempted rape to still be an issue in the Buffy/Spike relationship."

          That's is almost certain canon.

          Angel DID learn lessons in season 9. His main lesson was that he's not more important than anyone else, and that the world doesn't necessarily need him to keep on spinning.
          That's simply opposed to what is in Season 10.

          In the end of season 9, Alasdair offered Whistler's hat to Angel, and asked him who would fill Whistler's role of keeping the balance. Angel rejects the hat and says "No one. We'll have to do that for ourselves". I think that's a VERY big lesson for Angel.
          That is an extremely low bar. That's worse than Cordelia's being offered to be a higher power.


          * The Mayor at-worse was a town-ending threat. Angel is responsible for Magic Town existing-Whistler wouldn't had had the needed magic if not for Angel's extremely reckless actions.


          * Spike and Angel had very different roles in BtVS S8. If I remember correctly, Spike while under Archaeus's influence stopped himself from trying to kill Buffy. Angel had to be stopped from trying to kill Spike.

          I'd say that season 7 tried to keep the "who does Buffy love?" question as un-answered as possible,
          "Lessons" (B 7.01) itself proved Buffy was still in love with Spike. "Lessons" and "Beneath You" (B 7.02) has Buffy considering her relationships with Angel and Spike as being equal. "Conversations With Dead People" (B 7.07) has Buffy discussing her relationship with Spike. And it simply escalates from there.

          and that many different fans interpret Buffy's feelings in season 7 in VASTLY different ways
          That many fans refuse to acknowledge that Buffy is in love with Spike is irrelevant regarding what canon is.


          * BtVS S7 makes clear that Spike is connected to the First Evil and that Buffy is putting everyone and the world at-risk by simply keeping Spike around.


          * Angel was not raped by Twilight-Regarding the Space Sex, I hope you're not putting equal blame on Buffy and Angel.


          * The specific ratings and demographics for the TV Buffyverse is perhaps another thread topic. But the TV Buffyverse never experienced the ratings dropping to less than a 1/10 what they used to be.


          * Spike has insecurity issues. He's never had an inferiority complex.



          TimeTravellingBunny

          * Even the DVD commentaries say Angel/Cordy was not popular and didn't actually happen because the viewers didn't want it to actually happen.


          * The entire point of the Shanshu Prophecy is to give Angel-and the viewers-hope that Buffy/Angel can happen again. Buffy's death was more important to Angel than bringing Cordelia back from a hell dimension. Angel left for 3 months after Buffy's death. Angel says, "Buffy" after his "perfect fantasy". And Angel/Darla and Angel/Cordy are both almost certainly because of Jasmine.

          but from everything I've seen in the fandom, Angel/Cordy is one of the fandom's most popular ships, about as popular as Bangel.
          Huh? From what I know of fandom, Angel/Cordy isn't even as popular as Spike/Xander. Willow/Oz is more popular than Angel/Cordy.

          Most people I know who are actual fans of AtS, rather than just fans of Angel from BtVS, don't even care about Bangel, and think that dragging it back into the story in season 5 was entirely unnecessary.
          AtS s5 is the highest rated season of AtS and is the most critically acclaimed season of AtS. "Most people [you] know" doesn't equal the general viewership of AtS.


          * The only reason for a rivalry between Spike and Angel is because of Drusilla and Buffy. If Spike didn't consider Buffy/Angel still a threat, he would have left Los Angeles and gone to be with Buffy.

          Angel had actually been pretty much over Buffy since [AtS s1].
          That is directly opposed to canon.

          * Angel's going to try to rescue Buffy is a different situation than earlier in AtS s5. Spike in AtS s5 prior to "The Girl in Question" (A 5.20) seemed to consider that Angel was the only threat to the Buffy/Spike relationship and that Buffy would be celibate until Spike decided to be with her again.


          * So, you gave zero examples of Angel being a "tactician, able to design and carry out very intricate plans"? Buffy, Willow, Giles, Wesley, and Spike are probably all better tacticians than Angel is.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by MikeB View Post
            Guy

            * D’Hoffryn in BtVS S4 saw that Willow had the potential to be a vengeance-demon. He wasn’t recruiting for a personal army.
            So you think that he just wanted to fulfill her potential out of the goodness of his heart? He's a demon who controls a group of demons who's job is to wreak terrible vengeance on people - usually through violence. He's clearly evil.

            - D’Hoffryn was so relatively unassuming that everyone is fine with him being at the Xander-Anya wedding and Willow in “Selfless” (B 7.05) considered that he would help with the Anya situation.
            D'hoffryn was all polite because it's convenient for him, and the scoobies allowed him at the party because Anya wanted him there and because he wasn't going to start killing people there (because he cares about Anya). In 'Selfless', we see that his polite act is just an act, and that he's really a bastard.

            Dracula wanted respect from Buffy and the other 2 Slayers.

            No, that makes around zero sense. Dracula could hyno-beam almost anyone. He specifically wanted Buffy as his ‘bride’ and he specifically wanted Xander as a friend.
            Sure, if he can only make specific people adore him (because his thrall is not all-powerful), then he'll settle for that. But once he gets the abililty to make EVERYONE adore him (via the vampyr book), why wouldn't he go for it?

            Dracula is low-profile in BtVS S8.
            Not really. The guy lives in a freakin' CASTLE, with servants and stuff.

            * Season 10 wasn’t opening up ‘old wounds’ in the Buffy/Spike relationship. The issues Season 10 addressed had already been fully ‘dealt with’ before the middle of BtVS S7.
            I disagree. First of all, I don't think ANYTHING can be fully dealth with. Our past is always with us. If I get into a big fight with someone, and then we make up, then the fight is over, but there's always something left from it. Things don't just disappear, no matter how much we try to fix them. The trick is to learn to live WITH the past, not to heal it completely.

            * There is NOTHING logical about Giles’s Season 10 magical abilities.
            Well, I explained how it makes sense to me in my previous post. Care to elaborate on what's your specific problem with it?

            * Buffy never fought relatively on par with Eldre Koh; the comics make clear that Dracula is significantly more powerful than she is.
            In 'Guarded', Buffy and Koh fought relatively on par with each other. I think Koh is a little stronger, actually, but not by much. And the comics do NOT make it clear that Dracula is significantly stronger than she is. We see in issue #3 of season 10 that Dracula is not even stronger than Spike (he needed Xander's help to defeat Spike), and we know that Buffy is at least a LITTLE stronger as Spike, so, Buffy's stronger than Dracula too. Dracula has a bunch of abilities that Buffy doesn't have, but she'll still beat him in a fight.

            * Buffy is currently one of the least-powerful members of the Scooby Gang.
            I haven't read the last 2 issues of season 10 yet, so no spoilers please, but unless she somehow becomes weaker in those last 2 issues, she's NOT one of the least powerful members of the scooby gang. She's stronger than everyone except, maybe, Willow.

            Why would she pass up being immortal? The only reason she declined the Shadow Men’s offer is because she didn’t want to be less human than demon; but when she sees the threat, she considers she made a mistake by declining the offer.
            Why would she pass up being immortal? Well, maybe because she doesn't want to be a soulless vampire? And even if she could somehow be an ensouled vampire, she wouldn't wanna be the thing she spent her entire life fighting. The very idea would seem gross and wrong to her. Also, Buffy isn't Bella Swan, thankfully.

            * You consider Buffy forgave Xander too easily regarding his betrayal in BtVS S9, yet you have no problems with how Angel is regarded post-BtVS 8.39?
            Yep. Xander was fully forgiven after like 3 issues, whereas Angel had to go on a season-long journey and change himself before he could put his sin behind him. Remember, Buffy couldn't even LOOK at Angel in issue #40. Buffy! The girl who spent years swearing up and down that she loved Angel more than she'll ever love anything in this life! THAT girl couldn't even LOOK at Angel! That's HUGE!

            * Pre-BtVS S10, it made sense for Buffy to bring the Scoobies slaying with her. They were mostly fighting regular vampires. And the Scoobies did have the ability to kill a regular vampire. Again: “Each New Rules Vampire is relatively more formidable that the First Turok-Han that Buffy faced. An early Issue of Season 10 displayed that Willow, Dracula, Spike, and Buffy COMBINED had relative difficulty killing several NRVs.”
            That's not accurate. The new vampires may have more abilities than the first uber-vamp, but they are NOT harder to defeat than him. They are EASIER to defeat than the first uber-vamp. When Buffy fought against the first uber-vamp, it took her two lengthy attempts to defeat him, and she was badly injured in both. But when Buffy first fights the new vampires in issue #1 of season 10, she kills the first new vampire in like two seconds - her stake doesn't penetrate at first, so she just pushes a little harder and he's dust. That's a LOT easier than killing the first uber-vamp was.

            * My quote: “None of the characters in post-“Sleeper” (B 7.08) would consider the attempted rape to still be an issue in the Buffy/Spike relationship.”

            That’s is almost certain canon.
            Um, based on what? 'Sleeper' barely even MENTIONED the attempted rape. What makes you think that the attempted rape was fully dealt with in that episode?

            That’s simply opposed to what is in Season 10.
            How so?

            That is an extremely low bar. That’s worse than Cordelia’s being offered to be a higher power.
            I disagree. That was a symbolic moment - it symbolizes Angel rejecting the idea of trying to control the world, which was his character flaw that led to the whole Twilight fiasco in season 8. It shows that he finally GETS it.

            * The Mayor at-worse was a town-ending threat. Angel is responsible for Magic Town existing—Whistler wouldn’t had had the needed magic if not for Angel’s extremely reckless actions.
            Whistler, Pearl and Nash are responsible for magic-town. Angel tried to stop them, and he did stop most of their plan. Maybe he could have done more, but that's not the same as being responsible for magic-town. If we went by that logic, then Buffy is responsible for every person who was ever killed by a monster since she was called as the slayer.

            * Spike and Angel had very different roles in BtVS S8. If I remember correctly, Spike while under Archaeus’s influence stopped himself from trying to kill Buffy. Angel had to be stopped from trying to kill Spike.
            No, Angel and Spike both stopped themselves. They also both needed some help and some coaching - Spike had some help from Buffy, and Angel had some help from Spike.

            “Lessons” (B 7.01) itself proved Buffy was still in love with Spike.
            What? How? Buffy barely talks with him in that episode. And she certainly never says that she loves him in that episode. This episode may have proven that Buffy still CARES about Spike to some degree (because she seemed to be worried about him in the basement), but there's a big gap between "caring" and "loving".

            “Lessons” and “Beneath You” (B 7.02) has Buffy considering her relationships with Angel and Spike as being equal.
            Again, that's NOT in the text. Buffy certainly doesn't SAY it, and I really don't see where she does anything that can be interpreted as showing that. Can you specify what in these episodes makes you think that?

            “Conversations With Dead People” (B 7.07) has Buffy discussing her relationship with Spike.
            Yes, true. But how does that prove that she loves him, or that she's "over" the attempted rape?

            And it simply escalates from there.
            Very, vey slowly. I personally believe that Buffy loved Spike in 'Chosen', but I can see how some people may think she didn't. And anyway, none of this is showing that Buffy and Spike were "over" the attempted rape.

            That many fans refuse to acknowledge that Buffy is in love with Spike is irrelevant regarding what canon is.
            Canon isn't some scientific fact, it's all about how people interpret it. Art is subjective, after all. And anyway, my point was that Joss Whedon SPECIFICALLY kept the "who does Buffy love more?" issue vague in 'Chosen'. She told Angel to leave Sunnydale, but she hinted that mybe they'll have a shot in the future. And she told Spike that she loved him, but Spike said that she doesn't. So, Buffy's feelings about Spike and Angel are left unclear. Which is THE POINT:

            "I'm cookie dough. I'm not done baking. I'm not finished becoming whoever the hell it is I'm gonna turn out to be. I make it through this, and the next thing, and the next thing, and maybe one day I turn around and realize I'm ready. I'm cookies. And then, you know, if I want someone to eat— (eyes go wide as she catches herself) or enjoy warm, delicious cookie me, then...that's fine. That'll be then. When I'm done."

            The way I see it, Joss specifically used 'Chosen' to say that it doesn't matter who Buffy loves and/or ends up with, because that's not the point. Joss never wanted BtVS to be the story of "who's gonna be Buffy's Boyfriend", and in 'Chosen' he made that clear. Which is why he left it unclear as to how Buffy feels about Angel and Spike. Being vague was THE POINT.

            That's how I see it, anyway.

            * BtVS S7 makes clear that Spike is connected to the First Evil and that Buffy is putting everyone and the world at-risk by simply keeping Spike around.
            I think it's more complicated than that. Keeping Spike around makes sense, because her only other options are killing him (which isn't right - Spike is a victim in that situation), or sending him away, which would put other people at risk and wouldn't solve anything. So, keeping Spike round was the right call, tactically. The only problem was that Buffy was too lax about Spike walking around unchained, and the story criticized her for that.

            * Angel was not raped by Twilight—Regarding the Space Sex, I hope you’re not putting equal blame on Buffy and Angel.
            I certainly don't put any blame on Buffy for that. But I think that Angel didn't know exactly what he was getting into when he signed up with the Twilight thing, and even if he did, it's never moral to surrender one's right to choose - which is what happens in the space-frak. Angel and Buffy were being mentally influenced by Twilight at that point, so they were both kinda raped there. Angel may have been less of an innocent lamb than Buffy, but he was still made to have sex when not in full control of himself, And I think that's rape. Or at least close to it.

            * The specific ratings and demographics for the TV Buffyverse is perhaps another thread topic. But the TV Buffyverse never experienced the ratings dropping to less than a 1/10 what they used to be.
            The situation is more complicated than that. It should be noted that the beginning of the season 8 Buffy comics, in 2007, was EXCEPTIONALLY succesful for a comic book, much less a Dark Horse comic book. IIRC, the first issues if season 8 are the most succesful comics in the history of Dark Horse. Clearly, season 8 began with unusually high sales becuase it was unprecedented (no one ever tried to continue a TV show through comic books like that before), and because the Buffy fans were starved for more content after 3 years of getting nothing. After that unusually high spike, sales declined to more normal numbers, because most people just don't really like comic books. So, that drop in sales is really not much of a sign for declining quality, IMO.

            * Spike has insecurity issues. He’s never had an inferiority complex.
            I disagree. Spike always felt inferior compared to Angel and other successful males. That's part of what makes him compelling, to me.
            Last edited by Guy; 24-09-16, 10:32 AM.
            Come on, I'm not a dog. I'm talking through the dog. He was nearby. I am a power without name, from a realm far above your petty-- Hey! Balls!
            HAHNANUMMANUMMA-SLURP-MMNN... Ho! Wait! Wait! Whoah! I can't help it! I'm housed in this animal. It's complicated!

            Comment


            • #7
              Buffyverse canon is determined by Joss Whedon, but it seems since sometime in Season 9 that he’s not involved much with the comics.
              How do you know that? Whedon is an executive producer, as written on the covers, he has those meetings with the artists - there are even photos available online so you can check them out and he's writing a mini-series in season 11. The guy's been in this since, like, 1991 or something, I'd say he's pretty damn involved all things considered.

              The comics could easily have found a way to make her immortal.
              Here's a better idea - let's make Spike human!

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by MikeB View Post

                Buffy would want to be immortal.
                Where are you getting that from?
                She no longer wants to die.
                "Buffy would want to be immortal" is not a logical conclusion that follows from "she no longer wants to die". Most people aren't eager to die any time soon, but that doesn't mean that they are all yearning to be immortal

                TimeTravellingBunny

                * Even the DVD commentaries say Angel/Cordy was not popular and didn’t actually happen because the viewers didn’t want it to actually happen.
                What DVD commentaries? What exactly did they say? If they actually said "well we changed our plans because we found out the viewers weren't all that in favor of that ship!", that would be utterly pathetic and ridiculous for writers of a TV show to say. Did they also say: "You see, all our storylines are based on fanservice. We do market research and realized people don't want Angel and Cordy to get together. People want Cordy to sleep with Angel's son, get pregnant and turn out to be possessed by an evil entity all along!"

                Which would also be not just total nonsense, but also a total lie, since it's common knowledge that they changed their plans for Cordelia in season 4 because of Charisma Carpenter's pregnancy.
                * The entire point of the Shanshu Prophecy is to give Angel—and the viewers—hope that Buffy/Angel can happen again. Buffy’s death was more important to Angel than bringing Cordelia back from a hell dimension. Angel left for 3 months after Buffy’s death. Angel says, “Buffy” after his “perfect fantasy”.
                Really?? You actually think that Angel said "Buffy" after having sex with Cordelia in his perfect fantasy because he was in love with Buffy?! Um... remember that this was Angel's fantasy of ultimate happiness? You are seriously arguing that Angel's fantasy of perfect happiness is about having sex with one woman while being in love with another? Man, that Angel sure is one weird dude! :vamp_wacky:

                And Angel/Darla and Angel/Cordy are both almost certainly because of Jasmine.


                Are you always going to be saying that? "Jasmine did it!" is clearly your version of "The wizard did it!", as in, a way for you to ignore everything in canon that you don't like and that doesn't fit your preferred beliefs.

                By the same logic, if Angel can be brainwashed to have feelings for people, you could also make a theory that he was brainwashed by Whistler to fall in love with Buffy.


                Huh? From what I know of fandom, Angel/Cordy isn’t even as popular as Spike/Xander. Willow/Oz is more popular than Angel/Cordy.
                From what I know of fandom, all three of these ships are pretty damn popular. Is your knowledge of fandom based on thorough research and statistical data, and therefore superior?

                AtS s5 is the highest rated season of AtS and is the most critically acclaimed season of AtS. “Most people [you] know” doesn’t equal the general viewership of AtS
                .
                Some people like season 5 the best, others don't like it much at all. But please don't tell me that the people who do like that season like it because Angel's pissing contests with Spike made for a great Bangel love story. That would be, as you would say, "beyond ridiculous". Buffy didn't even appear in season 5, and The Girl in Question $hat all over Bangel and Spuffy both, and Buffy's character as well.
                By your logic, it would make more sense to claim that the popularity of season 5 is due to people liking Angel/Nina, since that was Angel's actual relationship in season 5, or Angel/Cordy, since Cordelia actually did appear in one episode in season 5 (which is one episode more than Buffy) and that relationship was treated with respect and potrayed in a touching way, unlike Bangel was in season 5.

                * The only reason for a rivalry between Spike and Angel is because of Drusilla and Buffy.
                Or maybe it's the other way round. Angel always seemed more interested in using Drusilla to hurt Spike, than he seemed to be genuinely romantically interested in Drusilla herself. And many, myself included, got the impression that his sudden renewed interest in Buffy only made sense if it was prompted by jealousy of Spike - more so because of Spike being a hero with a soul who sacrificed himself to save the world, than Spike just being Buffy's boyfriend. Which, in turn, was prompted by Angel's own feelings of inadequacy and self-loathing caused by his past failures and, in particular, his current situation of working for the enemy he had been fighting against for years, and being morally compromised in the way he wasn't before. Which was Angel's actual arc in season 5.

                And if you want Joss Whedon's words on the matter, he said that Spike was the closest thing to Angel's "love interest" in season 5. In other words, it was his relationship with Spike that was important to season 5, not his relationship with Buffy.

                If Spike didn’t consider Buffy/Angel still a threat, he would have left Los Angeles and gone to be with Buffy.
                That's just your opinion.
                And if it was all about Angel being a threat, shouldn't that have made him go and be with Buffy, instead of hanging out in LA with Angel?

                That is directly opposed to canon.
                Uh, nope. That's what was obvious from the actual canon of seasons 2, 3 and 4.

                * Angel’s going to try to rescue Buffy is a different situation than earlier in AtS s5. Spike in AtS s5 prior to “The Girl in Question” (A 5.20) seemed to consider that Angel was the only threat to the Buffy/Spike relationship and that Buffy would be celibate until Spike decided to be with her again.
                More of your headcanons.

                * So, you gave zero examples of Angel being a “tactician, able to design and carry out very intricate plans”? Buffy, Willow, Giles, Wesley, and Spike are probably all better tacticians than Angel is.
                I thought that was already obvious. As evil soulless vampire, he was known for carrying long-term plans in order to torture certain people and drive them insane. That's his MO. He wouldn't have been known as the worst vampire ever if he had just killed and raped a lot of people - he did that, but so did pretty much every other vampire.
                Last edited by TimeTravellingBunny; 24-09-16, 11:35 PM.
                You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

                Comment


                • #9
                  More seem to acknowledge that the ‘canon’ of Season 10 doesn’t even ‘fit’ with the earlier ‘canon’ of Season 10.
                  Parts of the canon of season 1 don't fit the canon of season 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 or 7 (or other parts of season 1) but that doesn't make them less canonical. Especially in a show where the showrunner has openly said he doesn't care that much about plot continuity if it gets in the way of the story he is trying to tell. You are free to call it terrible storytelling but the notion that plot holes and character inconsistency make seasons non-canon is ridiculous. Feel free to exclude whatever you want from your personal canon, hell I have excluded almost everything after season 4 myself, but I don't go around telling people how those seasons are not really canon.

                  AtS s5 is the highest rated season of AtS
                  No, it's not. Link

                  Dawn the rest of the Scoobies seem to have almost no problems with Xander’s major betrayal in BtVS S9.
                  Are we talking about the same show where literally everybody close to Buffy has betrayed her at one point or another, some of them multiple times, and virtually all of them have been forgiven relatively easily? I guess you don't think anything after Crush is canon either because Spike was forgiven just like that. Or anything after Helpless because Giles was forgiven very quickly and easily, etc. And more importantly, even if that weren't the case, character inconsistency doesn't mean non-canon.

                  If Joss Whedon had the Turok-han in “Chosen” (B 7.22) be as powerful as the First Turok-han, probably only Willow, Buffy, and Faith would have survived the fight.
                  Funny that you would use an example that according to you logic means Chosen isn't canon either because it was full of plot holes, the strength of the Turok-hans being one of the most glaring ones. You can call it the First Turok-han all you want but IIRC everyone in-show behaved as if they expected all the Turok-hans to be as strong as the first one they met, and nothing indicated that they weren't supposed to be... yet in the end they weren't because if they were they would have squashed the good guys like bugs. It was (to me at least) terrible writing - which doesn't make it non-canon, though.

                  Regarding BtVS S8, sales would have dropped sooner if Buffy/Xander had actually happened.
                  I love how you always go on and on about what "most viewers/readers" want/would want, based on absolutely nothing but your gut instinct.

                  Or maybe you think that they did a poll and decided that having Angel date a new character called Nina would be so much more popular?
                  The writers should just asked MikeB which ship is popular and which isn't because he always seems to know these things with amazing precision.
                  Last edited by Jack Shaftoe; 25-09-16, 01:46 AM.
                  Xander: "Willow, you are the best human ever! I adore you! Well, that's the cookies talking, but you rock!"

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    In this fandom, there is no better example of false consensus effect/bias than Mike provides every post. What he thinks is unfailingly what "a majority" think.

                    The Turok-han thing is contained within at least two very well worn tropes that nobody should have been surprised to see; after all, Tropes Are Not bad.
                    sigpic
                    Banner by LRae12

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Guy

                      * I never implied or suggested that D'Hoffryn wasn't evil and I never implied or suggested that D'Hoffryn was a good guy.


                      * I consider post-Season 9 cannot actually be canon; consequently, I dismiss post-Season 9. Anyway, by "Buffy vs. Dracula" (B 5.07) Rupert Giles didn't know Dracula was real and existed. Dracula only came to Sunnydale to essentially try to make Buffy his bride.

                      Dracula clearly had no interest in being famous and no interest in being adored by the masses. Pre-Season 10, Dracula seems mostly only interested in trying to have Buffy as a bride, Xander as a friend, and general respect from others including Spike.

                      One can be "low profile" while living in a "freakin' CASTLE, with servants and stuff"-it seems you don't know what "low profile" means.


                      * The level of Giles's Season 10 magical abilities makes around zero sense and seems only there for Angel's and Buffy/Angel's benefit.


                      * Buffy and Eldre Koh never fought relatively on par with each other, Koh is a lot stronger than Buffy, Dracula is clearly significantly stronger than Buffy, and Buffy is clearly significantly stronger than Spike.

                      Buffy only can beat Dracula in a fight because Dracula still wants her as his bride.


                      * For Season 10, Buffy was less powerful than Willow, Giles, and Spike. Buffy was only more powerful than Xander and Dawn. Even Andrew Wells was arguably more powerful given the Slayers still liked him and given his mastery of robotics, spell casting, etc.


                      * The two loves of Buffy's life are a cursed vampire, a soulless vampire who killed Slayers, and then that soulless vampire who killed Slayers becoming ensouled. Once Buffy decided she's willing to give up having children, there's very little that suggests she wouldn't want to be immortal so that she could be with Spike forever.


                      * Buffy and Co. seemed anti-Angel throughout AtS S5. Buffy's nothing being able to look at Angel in BtVS 8.40 and Angel possibly ?forgiving himself' is not enough punishment for Angel's BtVS S8 actions.


                      * Buffy's stronger and more powerful in Season 10 than she was in BtVS S7. In addition, "Bring on the Night" (B 7.10) has Buffy at least slightly depressed and at least slightly dispirited because the First Evil has Spike. She hasn't been sleeping much since Spike was taken. Buffy is much happier in Season 10.

                      'Sleeper' barely even MENTIONED the attempted rape. What makes you think that the attempted rape was fully dealt with in that episode?
                      I cannot comprehend how any reasonable and any logical/rational viewing of "Sleeper" (B 7.09) could conclude that anyone thought the attempted rape was still an issue in the Buffy/Spike relationship. Even Giles in "Lies My Parents Told Me" (B 7.09) doesn't specifically mention it.


                      * Angel was Twilight because Angel wanted to be with Buffy. Again, Angel's rejecting Whistler's offer to be the new Whistler is an extremely low bar. Commending him for that is more asinine than commending Xander for not raping Buffy in "Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered" (B 2.16).

                      Whistler, Pearl and Nash are responsible for magic-town. Angel tried to stop them, and he did stop most of their plan. Maybe he could have done more, but that's not the same as being responsible for magic-town. If we went by that logic, then Buffy is responsible for every person who was ever killed by a monster since she was called as the slayer.
                      Angel is responsible for Whistler obtaining the magic necessary for Whistler's plan. The Buffy comparison is beyond silly at best.


                      * Angel did not "stop himself" while under Archaeus's influence.


                      * There is no logical/rational argument against this: "Lessons" (B 7.01) itself proved Buffy was still in love with Spike.

                      My quote: ""Lessons" and "Beneath You" (B 7.02) has Buffy considering her relationships with Angel and Spike as being equal." That is clearly in the text and Buffy clearly says such several times.


                      * It seems you don't understand and/or comprehend why Buffy was having that therapy session with Holden Webster.


                      * That Buffy is in love with Spike in "Chosen" (B 7.22) is canon-the only reason anyone would refuse to acknowledge that is because the person doesn't want Buffy in love with Spike.

                      -- It's near 100% certain that Buffy was in love with Spike in BtVS S6.

                      Canon isn't some scientific fact, it's all about how people interpret it.
                      Incorrect. Joss Whedon determines canon. Outside of that, something cannot be canon if it cannot be canon.

                      In my opinion, Joss Whedon only kept Buffy/Spike vs. Buffy/Angel alive because it was assumed-from what I remember-that Sarah Michelle Gellar was going to do 5 AtS S5 episodes.

                      Nonetheless, Buffy chooses Spike over Angel and seems willing to die with Spike in the Hellmouth.


                      * Buffy was controlled into having sex with AngelTwilight. It's likely that Angel glowified her into having sex with him. It was never said or suggested that Twilight influenced/glowified/controlled/etc. Angel. I remember Joss Whedon said that Angel is responsible for all of Angel's actions in BtVS S8 even when he was TwilightAngel.


                      * I'm clearly referring to the amount of the drop in sales of the Buffyverse comics, which are clearly because of people not liking the content of the comics and fewer people considering the comics canon and/or can be canon.

                      Spike always felt inferior compared to Angel and other successful males.
                      That is directly opposed to canon. In their first meeting, William is already literally ?outshining' Angel. As a human, William only possibly felt inferior to someone like Queen Victoria. He dismissing the people at the party as a bunch of vulgarians and only much cares about what Cecily and his mother thinks of him.

                      Spike in "School Hard" (B 2.03) and after clearly feels superior to Angel and his only problem with Angel is Drusilla's and Buffy's feelings for Angel.



                      a thing of evil

                      * It seems we have different definitions of what "much involved in the comics" mean. Remember that Joss Whedon started BtVS S8 at a relative low point in his career. Then Dollhouse came along. Then The Avengers . Then promoting Much Ado About Nothing . Then The Avengers 2 . Now a Batgirl movie.



                      TimeTravellingBunny

                      * If I remember correctly, David Fury on the "Your Welcome" (A 5.12) commentary says that Angel/Cordy didn't actually happen because the viewers were so against the idea.

                      If they actually said "well we changed our plans because we found out the viewers weren't all that in favor of that ship!", that would be utterly pathetic and ridiculous for writers of a TV show to say.
                      I remember that AtS only existed and was only getting renewed to make Joss Whedon happy. I remember AtS s4 eventually surpassed the ratings of BtVS S7 and yet AtS was still going to be cancelled because BtVS was ending.

                      The viewers had a considerable sway over the content and canon of the TV Buffyverse.

                      You actually think that Angel said "Buffy" after having sex with Cordelia in his perfect fantasy because he was in love with Buffy?!
                      I remember David Boreanaz requested that Angel say "Buffy" after having sex with Cordelia in his perfect fantasy because I remember David wanted to make clear that Angel was still in love with Buffy and that Angel/Cordy wasn't actually challenging Buffy/Angel.

                      Regarding the canon, Angel never stopped being in love with Buffy. See: "Chosen" (B 7.22). See: AtS S5. See: BtVS S8.


                      * "Inside Out" (A 5.17) happened and is canon. Choosing to ignore and/or dismiss Skip is simply that.


                      * If Angel/Cordy was a popular ?ship, it would have happened in TV AtS.


                      * I don't recall ever suggesting that the popularity of AtS S5 is because of Buffy/Angel. I've maintained since 2005 C.E. that AtS S5 supported Buffy/Spike over Buffy/Angel and put the Buffy/Spike relationship over Buffy/Angel simply by the fact that it took Buffy around 9 months to even have sex with someone after Spike and it took someone like the Immortal for her to do so.


                      * Nothing you said discounts this fact: "The only reason for a rivalry between Spike and Angel is because of Drusilla and Buffy."

                      A&F S9 shows that Angel still loves Drusilla.

                      Angel went to Sunnydale in "End of Days" (B 7.21) because Angel wants to be with Buffy.

                      Angel couldn't be with Buffy in AtS S5 and Angel's antagonism against Spike revolves around Spike's chances of being with Buffy. Spike and Angel only becomes ?buddies' again after both consider that Buffy isn't currently available to either of them.


                      - Regarding Angel's regard for Spike. I remember I was the first on Boards to write that BtVS S2 showed that Angel perhaps loved Spike more than Angel loved Buffy.

                      Even in BtVS S8, it's possible AngelTwilight knew Spike was in another dimension. It's also possible AngelTwilight knew Spike's vehicle could enter Twilight.

                      Nevertheless, most evidence shows that Angel loves Buffy more than Angel loves Spike.


                      * Spike doesn't want Buffy having romantic sexual feelings for anyone but Spike. Spike in AtS S5 was concerned about the prospect of human Angel and what that could mean for Buffy/Spike.

                      - I made a thread regarding it would have made more sense for Spike/Fred or even Spike/Lilah to happen rather than have Spike not go be with Buffy.


                      * My quote: "* Angel's going to try to rescue Buffy is a different situation than earlier in AtS s5. Spike in AtS s5 prior to "The Girl in Question" (A 5.20) seemed to consider that Angel was the only threat to the Buffy/Spike relationship and that Buffy would be celibate until Spike decided to be with her again."

                      People using words like "fanon" and "headcanon" if anything simply concludes that people don't know what "canon" means. "Canon" is not debatable. Canon is fact.

                      Anyway, nothing prior to "The Girl in Question" (A 5.20) suggests or implies that Spike considered anyone but Angel a threat to the Buffy/Spike relationship and nothing prior to "TGiQ" suggests or implies that Spike considered Buffy would have sex with anyone before Spike decided to be with her again.


                      * Angelus's "serial killer"-like antics is not the definition of "tactician" .

                      Angel was not known as the worst vampire ever.



                      Jack Shaftoe

                      * Comparing the canon of the TV Buffyverse to Season 10 and after is silly.


                      * AtS s4 was the highest rated Season of AtS up to that point and AtS S5 added around 1 million viewers just in the United States. I don't care what some random website says.


                      * World-ending evil is distinct from lesser evil.

                      I guess you don't think anything after Crush is canon either because Spike was forgiven just like that. Or anything after Helpless because Giles was forgiven very quickly and easily, etc.
                      Spike wasn't "forgiven" after "Crush" (B 5.14) "just like that" and Spike's tried to kill Buffy before. Until "Afterlife" (B 6.03), if anything Buffy uses Spike love for her against him.

                      "Helpless" (B 3.12) has Giles betraying the Watchers Council and Giles's cementing his father-daughter relationship with Buffy to the point that Quentin Travers fires Giles specifically because Quentin regards that Giles loves Buffy too much.


                      * Willow got books from the Fang Gang. The First Turok-han got its blood from Spike and would have likely been the most powerful Turok-han anyway.

                      The Turok-han likely hadn't fed for thousands of years (possibly tens or even hundreds of thousands of years). They were easier to kill than normal vampires.

                      None of Buffy and Co. assumed the Turok-hans they'd face in "Chosen" (B 7.22) was as powerful as the one Buffy killed in "Showtime" (B 7.11). If they assumed that, those like Giles, Wood, Xander, Dawn, and Andrew wouldn't have been allowed to fight them.


                      * Buffy/Xander was never a popular ?ship. The readers of BtVS S8 didn't want Buffy/Xander happening.


                      * Most viewers of the TV Buffyverse know which relationships were/are popular.



                      KingofCretins

                      In this fandom, there is no better example of false consensus effect/bias than Mike provides every post. What he thinks is unfailingly what "a majority" think.
                      First off, I remember you wrote something like 60% of TV Buffyverse wanted Buffy/Xander to happen and preferred that relationship to both Buffy/Angel and Buffy/Spike.

                      Secondly, I only respond to things I disagree with.

                      Thirdly, the decline of the Buffyverse comics is self-evident. Most Buffyverse fans don't regard post-Season 8 as canon.

                      Comment

                      Working...
                      X