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Lorne's line in Epiphany, A Cop out or not a Cop out ?

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  • Lorne's line in Epiphany, A Cop out or not a Cop out ?

    In Epiphany Lorne says to Angel "Those Lawyers were going to die anyway" Was that a way to absolve Angel by the writers ?
    He didn't just walk away, he literally locked them in with Darla and Dru.
    This was never thrown back at Angel even by Lilah or Lindsey given they were survivors of this mass murder which I found strange.
    So was it or was it not a cop out or am I just reading to much into it ?

  • #2
    I do think it's a bit of a cop out as Lorne seems to think the death of the lawyers was some sort of destiny. He believes it was going to happen one way or another and he's trying to minimise Angel's part of it because Angel is sickened by what he's done and wants to fix it.
    Last edited by Priceless; 04-11-21, 10:18 AM.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Priceless View Post
      I do think it's a bit of a cop out as Lorne seems to think the death of the lawyers was some sort of destiny. He believes it was going to happen one way or another and he's trying to minimise Angel's part of it because Angel is sickened by what he's done had wants to fix it.
      I agree with this
      It's like the writers did Reunion but then had no idea what to do next so try and wash it away.
      I never understood why Darla and Dru spared Lilah either. Lindsey I get that made sense but Lilah
      Last edited by BtVS fan; 17-10-21, 04:35 PM.

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      • Priceless
        Priceless commented
        Editing a comment
        Yes, I'm glad she was spared, but I don't understand why. Maybe that was destiny too?

    • #4
      It's not really a cop out. Angel may have let the Wolfram & Hart lawyers be eating, but they also certainly would have died if Angel hadn't been there.

      Also Angel wasn't meant to be there. The Powers sent Cordelia a vision of a guy about to kill himself in sacrifice to the demon Morgor. The Powers That Be clearly didn't want Angel to be there.
      My deviantart: http://vampfox.deviantart.com/

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      • #5
        Originally posted by BtVS fan View Post
        In Epiphany Lorne says to Angel "Those Lawyers were going to die anyway" Was that a way to absolve Angel by the writers ?
        He didn't just walk away, he literally locked them in with Darla and Dru.
        This was never thrown back at Angel even by Lilah or Lindsey given they were survivors of this mass murder which I found strange.
        So was it or was it not a cop out or am I just reading to much into it ?
        Like Lostsoul666 I tend to look at it as Lorne pointing out more Angel's decision was to not attempt to save them, to not change what was going to happen, rather than him creating it. I know he sealed their fates by locking the door and you can definitely argue that some might have got away from Darla/Dru, but I feel confident that the two vamps would be capable of killing the room full of people and stopping any getting far. I didn't remember that Angel was 'supposed' to be elsewhere. I don't think it absolves Angel's choice to shut them in and the fall out with his group is that dangerous side of him not being readily ignored by the writing.

        I have to say though, I've only watched the episode twice and would really want to rewatch it to be sure and to gain any idea of why Lilah got away as well as Lyndsey. Nothing is springing to mind in what I can remember that offers an answer to that one.

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        • #6
          Originally posted by Stoney View Post

          Like Lostsoul666 I tend to look at it as Lorne pointing out more Angel's decision was to not attempt to save them, to not change what was going to happen, rather than him creating it. I know he sealed their fates by locking the door and you can definitely argue that some might have got away from Darla/Dru, but I feel confident that the two vamps would be capable of killing the room full of people and stopping any getting far. I didn't remember that Angel was 'supposed' to be elsewhere. I don't think it absolves Angel's choice to shut them in and the fall out with his group is that dangerous side of him not being readily ignored by the writing.

          I have to say though, I've only watched the episode twice and would really want to rewatch it to be sure and to gain any idea of why Lilah got away as well as Lyndsey. Nothing is springing to mind in what I can remember that offers an answer to that one.
          Then I recommend a rewatch of S2 then

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          • #7
            Originally posted by BtVS fan View Post
            Then I recommend a rewatch of S2 then
            Well I can definitely do with rewatching AtS some more, I just don't know it as well. Plus, I always see things I haven't thought of before when I rewatch episodes, in either show. Often spurred by discussions I've had in the meantime and questions people have raised. It's part of why the shows stay so interesting to me, they deserve rewatching multiple times.

            But in regards to Lilah's survival, as you and Pricey didn't have any ideas why she was saved either, perhaps there just isn't a ready answer there?

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            • #8
              Originally posted by Stoney View Post

              Well I can definitely do with rewatching AtS some more, I just don't know it as well. Plus, I always see things I haven't thought of before when I rewatch episodes, in either show. Often spurred by discussions I've had in the meantime and questions people have raised. It's part of why the shows stay so interesting to me, they deserve rewatching multiple times.

              But in regards to Lilah's survival, as you and Pricey didn't have any ideas why she was saved either, perhaps there just isn't a ready answer there?
              Oou Christian Kane was leaving so maybe the kept her as the replacement. That's just speculation though

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              • #9
                Originally posted by BtVS fan View Post
                Oou Christian Kane was leaving so maybe the kept her as the replacement. That's just speculation though
                From the writer's perspective I'd agree they knew Kane was leaving and so wanted to keep SR. But considering that point inverse, don't Darla and Dru say in Redefinition that they were keeping Lilah so there were two possible remaining liaisons with W&H. That both wouldn't be killed off. I also think it was possibly Darla mocking Lyndsey's likely assumption he was special to her a little too.

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                • #10
                  Originally posted by Stoney View Post

                  From the writer's perspective I'd agree they knew Kane was leaving and so wanted to keep SR. But considering that point inverse, don't Darla and Dru say in Redefinition that they were keeping Lilah so there were two possible remaining liaisons with W&H. That both wouldn't be killed off. I also think it was possibly Darla mocking Lyndsey's likely assumption he was special to her a little too.
                  Actually Darla's mixed motivations do come up in Passion of the Nerds review of Redefinition
                  https://youtu.be/HVJ7GvHUtQY

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                  • Stoney
                    Stoney commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Cool, seems we're not alone in questioning that then.

                • #11
                  Originally posted by Stoney View Post
                  I didn't remember that Angel was 'supposed' to be elsewhere. I don't think it absolves Angel's choice to shut them in and the fall out with his group is that dangerous side of him not being readily ignored by the writing.
                  Cordelia gets a vision about guy about to kill himself in sacrifice to the demon Morgor. I'll put up pieces of the script.
                  Originally posted by Reunion
                  Angel, driving his convertible, Gunn in the passenger seat, is speeding through the streets of L.A. tossing Cordy and Wes around in the back seat.
                  Wesley: "There's no good to be done if we don't get there in one piece."
                  Angel: "We don't have much time."
                  Cordy suddenly gets hit by a vision.
                  Wesley: "Angel, pull over."
                  Angel: "I'll slow down, all right?"
                  Wesley: "No! Pull over. She's having a vision."
                  Angel looks back at Cordy.
                  Gunn, eyes on the road: "Tell me it ain't us she's seeing, wrapped around a lamppost."
                  We get blurry flashes of a guy holding a gun.
                  Cordy: "It's in the other direction. Turn around."
                  Angel: "We're almost there!"
                  Wesley: "Angel!"
                  Angel: "She should have done this before we left the hotel."
                  Wesley and Gunn: "Angel!"
                  Angel: "Maybe it's a false alarm."
                  Cordy gives him a mean look, pulls out a stake, holds it up, aimed at him, then puts it back down. Angel spins the car around on the street and heads in the other direction.
                  A boombox is playing loud heavy metal music. There is a patched together poster covering the wall and candles, a turtle shell and other paraphernalia set out on the workbench in front of it. The guy from Cordy's vision is sitting before it cradling a gun.
                  Guy: "Morgog - I worship you. - Ruler of the universe, I will throw out my worthless life to you - Morgog...
                  (Angel and Co. walk in and he spins his chair around to face them)
                  What do you want?"
                  Wesley: "We're here to help."
                  Guy: "No! I-I have to do this. Morgog commands me.
                  (Angel throws at look a Cordy and shakes his head)
                  His will be done. Morgog...
                  (As Angel walks towards the boombox, sitting on top of a barrel)
                  Don't!
                  (Angel stops)
                  Stay back."
                  Cordy to Angel: "Easy, Boss. This kid's ready to snap, crackle *and* pop. I felt it in my vision. We've really got to handle this one with care. You know, delicate...(Angel throws the boombox at the altar, causing the guy to dive off his chair and ending the music) ...ly."
                  Guy comes up on his knees: "Jeez! Oh, jeez!"
                  Angel grabs the gun and twists it from his hand.
                  Angel: "Listen I'm not here to hurt you, kid, okay? And Morgog's not the way. (Dumps the bullets out of the gun into his hand) Morgog couldn't find his way to his hairy spine-hump without a roadmap! So, don't go killing yourself, he's not worth it. And you've got, you know (looks around the garage) a million - reasons - to live - I bet. Okay? (Tosses the gun into a barrel of used oil) Got it? Good."
                  Cordy crouches down by the guy, cradling his right hand while Angel walks away.
                  Wesley steps in front of him.
                  Wesley: "Angel, we're not done here."
                  Angel: "I am."
                  Wesley: "The Powers That Be must have had a good reason for sending us here."
                  Angel: "I don't have time to figure that out."
                  Gunn: "Maybe that's the plan. Maybe they're trying to keep you from going on this mission."
                  Wesley: "In any case *that* young man still clearly needs our help!"
                  Angel: "Go help him. I got more important things to do, okay?"
                  Wesley looks at Gunn as Angel walks out.
                  Now let's look at the script for Epiphany.
                  Originally posted by Epiphany
                  Angel: "I'm still not sure I understand what happened."
                  Host: "What's to understand? You think you're the first guy who ever rolled over, saw what was lying next to him and went 'Guyeah!' And you're not. Believe me. - It's called a moment of clarity, my lamb. And you've just had one. Sort of appalling, ain't it? To see just exactly where you've gotten yourself?"
                  Angel: "I don't know how to get back."
                  Host: "Well, that's just the thing. You don't. You go on to the new place. Whatever that is.
                  " Angel after a beat: "I don't know if I can. - I-I've done - things. - Questionable things."
                  Host: "Yes, you have. But-but you didn't kill those lawyers, Angel. That was slated to happen with or without you. The Powers were just trying to work it so it'd be without you, that's all. You weren't much help in that department were you, Sparky?"
                  Angel: "I wasn't much help? If they wanted me to stay away, why didn't they just tell me?"
                  Host: "Would you have listened? - Besides, what makes you think they didn't? Over and over and, as for example, over?"
                  Angel: "Well, they could've been a little bit more specific!"
                  Angel wasn't meant to save the lawyers. He wasn't meant to be there.
                  Last edited by Lostsoul666; 19-10-21, 09:32 PM.
                  My deviantart: http://vampfox.deviantart.com/

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                  • #12
                    Thanks for that Lostsoul666 I thought you were saying there was another vision that he hadn't gone to. Not his quick fix response. It does seem as if Angel's actions were irrelevant and Darla and Dru were clearly on their own mission. They didn't need Angel to shut the lawyers in, he just made it easier for them. That Angel lost his way isn't really in doubt, it's a major theme of the season, which is why I don't think it is a cop out to say that the lawyers would have been killed without him. It doesn't stop his choice being a dark one and his general fall something that he needs to address.

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                    • #13
                      The Powers That Be really love toying with Angel, don’t they? They save him in Amends, they try to keep him from being there when Darla and Dru kill all the lawyers. And Angel (and the viewer) automatically assumes the endgame is tied into an ability to fight evil, and find redemption through the Shanshu Prophecy. Hence the visions that Angel’s associates are given, the oblique messages, and then there’s Angel giving up his humanity because he’s told that Buffy’s life will be forfeit otherwise. In some ways, it almost veers on Angel being a plaything of the PTB. “As flies to wanton boys are we to the gods; they kill us for their sport.”

                      But it’s really the Macbeth scenario here, not King Lear. Try to avoid the prophecy and you end up fulfilling the prophecy. Or is it really a self-fulfilling prophecy and Angel actually has free will but perceives it as Fate?


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                      • #14
                        Originally posted by BtVS fan View Post
                        In Epiphany Lorne says to Angel "Those Lawyers were going to die anyway" Was that a way to absolve Angel by the writers ?
                        He didn't just walk away, he literally locked them in with Darla and Dru.
                        This was never thrown back at Angel even by Lilah or Lindsey given they were survivors of this mass murder which I found strange.
                        So was it or was it not a cop out or am I just reading to much into it ?
                        To me it always felt like a cop out. "They're going to die anyway", so this justifies locking them in with a couple of murderous vampires?!

                        Similarly I hated the preventive murder of Lindsey in S5. Just because Lorne had supposedly seen that he had not changed after all? Ugh.

                        https://www.youtube.com/c/DoubleDutchess

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                        • #15
                          Agreed. The fact that they were meant to die either way really doesn't matter because Angel could have rescued them. I have no doubt he's capable of staking Darla, and Dru - he already staked Darla. He could have saved the lawyers, and instead he locked them in.

                          If there is no free will in this universe then none of the choices made matter at all. If Wesley was meant to take Connor and Gunn was meant to sign away Fred's life - that would mean no one had any personal guilt. Angel saving souls is meaningless because those souls were slated to be saved anyways, and everyone he was going to rescue wasn't actually going to die.

                          Free will or predestination? I can't see the appeal of a universe where the main character can duck out on the guilt for participating in a mass murder because someone says it was meant to happen anyway. The entire point of Angel's journey is to stop bad things that are meant to happen if he's not there to prevent them.


                          Can we agree that the writers made everyone do and say everything with a thought to getting good ratings and being renewed. This includes everything we love as well as everything we hate.

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                          • #16
                            There seems to be an element of divine justice with what happened to the Wolfram & Hart lawyers. The Powers send Angel off to stop a young man from committing suicide. In the eyes of the Powers that Be a young man about to kill himself is more deserving of being saved than a group of evil lawyers who brought their own death, and destruction upon themselves.

                            Season 4 of Angel puts this in a new light since Jasmine may have been the one sending the visions(or maybe just some of them).
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                            • #17
                              Originally posted by Lostsoul666 View Post
                              There seems to be an element of divine justice with what happened to the Wolfram & Hart lawyers. The Powers send Angel off to stop a young man from committing suicide. In the eyes of the Powers that Be a young man about to kill himself is more deserving of being saved than a group of evil lawyers who brought their own death, and destruction upon themselves.

                              Season 4 of Angel puts this in a new light since Jasmine may have been the one sending the visions(or maybe just some of them).
                              The message is a bit of a mess because on the one hand nothing is pre ordained (Gunn mentions it about Jasmine in S4) yet apparently somethings are pre ordained ie with the Laywers

                              Honestly I doubt the writers really thought that far ahead they just didn't want Angel to be responsible for there murders. Same way Angelus doesn't kill any humans in S4, for when they resoul him.

                              It's also a problem with mystery box characters like the PTB and W and H, they can be everything and anything, whatever the plot needs them to be at the time
                              Last edited by BtVS fan; 06-11-21, 09:42 AM.

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