Rewatch of I've Got You Under My Skin

[Stoney]

I rewatched this the other night and in our discussions after a question was raised that I can't remember considering before. During the attempts to exorcise the Ethros demon from Ryan his mother is choked and Wes is attacked. Initially the attacks on Wes are purely verbal, trying to make him doubt himself and looking to draw a wedge between him and Angel. Eventually though it results in him stabbing himself with the cross too. But, if the Ethros demon was always wanting out of the boy and was looking to be free, he'd want the exorcism to happen. So why would he be fighting them? He even sent the message of 'save me' during it all. So are all the actions during, all the verbal and physical attacks, actually the boy, Ryan? Is it just him using some of the demon's power to read their thoughts and play on their fears? If so, did he always know he was possessed or was it just that the demon had been drawn up enough that he was suddenly able to access him?

Generally, I really enjoy this episode and there isn't much I dislike. I probably like it even more if it does work that the boy is in control during the exorcism. I do find the drop in of Doyle's name when Angel is telling Cordelia and Wes off for bickering at the start doesn't work well. I'm not sure whether it is just too clunky, the bickering not reminiscent enough of those early episodes, or an issue with DB's delivery of it. It just doesn't work for me. Part of me finds the play that it could be the dad who is possessed irritating as it clearly isn't going to be, but I think you can make a good argument as to why he behaves so suspiciously when they've been moving repeatedly and trying to cover the difficulties that they are having. And although the fake out that it could be him is too obvious to be true, it wouldn't have worked as well if both the parents had just been as instantly open to a stranger poking their nose in. I especially love the greater insights we get into Wes' childhood and starting to build up that understanding is really key to appreciating why he makes a lot of poor choices over the seasons.

So what do you think about the exorcism and Ryan? Is it an episode you enjoy rewatching? What are the pros and cons for you?

[Priceless]

I really enjoy this episode. It seems like an average story of possession, and the twist that it's really Ryan himself that's a soulless creature, makes it stand out.

On Pop Culture Role Call they were absolutely shocked that you could see the police take away this 10 year old boy. They felt Ryan needed some form of help, not to be imprisoned. I'd never really worried about Ryan before, thinking he could look after himself.

I'd also never thought about the exorcism, but I guess it was Ryan wanting to keep the demon inside him, to feed from, that was fighting against it.

[Nina]

To be honest, I haven't revisited this episode in years because I'm not a huge fan of the writers messing around with their own mythology once again. And in this case it's just for a twist in a MotW episode. I wished they just made him a psychopath instead. Ats doesn't have trouble introducing humans who are evil without there being a supernatural cause, so why make such a mess this time?

[Stoney]

I really enjoy this episode. It seems like an average story of possession, and the twist that it's really Ryan himself that's a soulless creature, makes it stand out.

I do like that you think you've seen the twist in it not being the dad but the son who's possessed and then you get the further surprise that the demon was trapped and trying to end his life just to get out. I think it is a little surprising though that a demon of that age couldn't sit back and enjoy the machinations and acts Ryan was performing and simply wait to outlive him. Perhaps we have to assume his frustration at not being in control and contained like that was too intense. But then, once out, why go pretty quietly? Is he too depressed in the end to want to try?

On Pop Culture Role Call they were absolutely shocked that you could see the police take away this 10 year old boy. They felt Ryan needed some form of help, not to be imprisoned. I'd never really worried about Ryan before, thinking he could look after himself.

I can understand questioning him being taken like that, but him ending up in some juvenile detention does feel likely. I think they referred to the chance that they were going to connect the death of that family friend to him. I'd assume that a lawyer and a child psychologist would be called for him.

I'd also never thought about the exorcism, but I guess it was Ryan wanting to keep the demon inside him, to feed from, that was fighting against it.

I'm not sure how concious it was. I'd have to look back over the transcript at the way the demon described being in Ryan's head, but a lot of the way that Ryan behaved seemed almost absent of emotions and detached. It's hard to connect that and the competent way the was feeding from the fears of those around him.

To be honest, I haven't revisited this episode in years because I'm not a huge fan of the writers messing around with their own mythology once again. And in this case it's just for a twist in a MotW episode. I wished they just made him a psychopath instead. Ats doesn't have trouble introducing humans who are evil without there being a supernatural cause, so why make such a mess this time?

I'm not sure that you can't view it basically as him being psychopathic. I appreciate that the Ethros said, "What soul?" when they were talking about Ryan, but I do think that you can just see it as him being so devoid of emotional responses and care that that is how the demon reacts to the sense of the 'void' he was trapped in. It's similar to me to The Judge saying Angel had no humanity in him. If you're talking about humanity as compassion then it's not really problematic perhaps. But if you're seeing it as having human traits, it can't be true. We come to learn more about what Angel is like unsouled of course, but he isn't without connection to his human self as we see vampires retain. So, I don't think we need to see Ryan's soullessness as necessarily literal or complete. And really, even if it was, what elements of the verse does it clash too heavily against? Was Kathy's attempt to steal Buffy's soul at the start of S4 going to kill her? I can't remember. Someone as an anomaly being born without an element most have doesn't feel an impossibility.

[KingofCretins]

The thing I remember enjoying most about that episode is it canonically establishing that the Catholic Church (or at the very least a particular Catholic nun) are so dialed in that they can perceive the supernatural (demonic even) for what it is and are not afraid of it. I'm 10000% sure this isn't a function of any sort of piety or faith by the writers as it is credited to the fact that Catholicism is the default western theology of Hollywood due to its advantage in iconography and architecture for filming purposes. Maybe there was a longer long-term thread to pull on there throughout the run of the show that was abandoned, or it was a one-off. Either way, I liked it

[Nina]

I'm not sure that you can't view it basically as him being psychopathic. I appreciate that the Ethros said, "What soul?" when they were talking about Ryan, but I do think that you can just see it as him being so devoid of emotional responses and care that that is how the demon reacts to the sense of the 'void' he was trapped in. It's similar to me to The Judge saying Angel had no humanity in him. If you're talking about humanity as compassion then it's not really problematic perhaps. But if you're seeing it as having human traits, it can't be true. We come to learn more about what Angel is like unsouled of course, but he isn't without connection to his human self as we see vampires retain. So, I don't think we need to see Ryan's soullessness as necessarily literal or complete. And really, even if it was, what elements of the verse does it clash too heavily against? Was Kathy's attempt to steal Buffy's soul at the start of S4 going to kill her? I can't remember. Someone as an anomaly being born without an element most have doesn't feel an impossibility.

Perhaps I'm wrong, there are plenty of episodes I don't remember well. But I remember the decision to pick dualism instead of materialism was the only thing all writers in all seasons agreed about when writing about the soul. The material body needed an immaterial something to be a person/to be sentient. Sure, in the early seasons the soul was more an add-on while in the later seasons the soul/spirit/demon was pretty much the essence of somebody. But there was always something besides the body, something essential.

As you mention; there are plenty of possibilities if you want to explain Ryan's situation. But for some reason I was never that forgiving and just really annoyed they came up with a MotW character whose situation seemed to clash with the mythology while it wasn't necessary. I suspect the real issue I've with this all is that the writers never bothered to properly define the soul and instead just wrote about souls the way they felt like that day.

[Lostsoul666]

This episode seems to support my theory that soul=conscience. We're told that Ryan has no soul, but you could easily replace the word soul with conscience, and nothing about the episode would change.

[vampmogs]

I agree that the soul mythology is terribly inconsistent however as it seems to change from one episode to the next, it doesn’t effect my enjoyment of this specific episode too much.

It does raise a lot of questions about Ryan and why he has no soul. Did something take his? Was he born without one? And if so why? It could’ve easily been a much bigger storyline. They could’ve revisited the character in another episode this season, perhaps linking him to W&H? Maybe the firm was representing humans with no souls (with ulterior motives of course) and it’s revealed there’s more Ryan’s out there? Similar to how they brought Billy back in S3? Just an idea.

I did really enjoy the twists throughout this episode. Initially we think it’s the father, then a classic demon possession, and then Ryan. I don’t think the episode ‘cheats’ with any of these too much and that makes it very fun to rewatch. With that said, I don’t really have an explanation for your question Stoney so I do think the writing stumbles a bit here.

I love the scenes of Angel going over to the house for dinner. I generally prefer the softer and nicer Angel we see in S1 to how grouchy he is often written later in the series. I think a lot of fans conflict ‘brooding’ with ‘grouchy’ but Angel was never initially portrayed as being so short-tempered and moody as he’s written to be later. He’s more gentle, patient and even-tempered in S1. This is also reflected in the moment he accidentally refers to Wesley as ‘Doyle’ and then later tells Cordy that he misses him. Angel is actually pretty warm to Wesley throughout S1 too but the Angel/Doyle relationship was definitely unique in just how soft and caring Angel was with Doyle in comparison to his relationships with Wes, Gunn, Lorne and even Connor. He was never intimidating or aggressive with Doyle like he could be with the others and seemed to genuinely enjoy his company and care for him above the others. I find Angel’s grief sad but sweet.

I actually did like the scene where Angel called Wesley ‘Doyle’ by mistake overall. Not just because of the different side we get to see of Angel, but because I think it acknowledges the way Wesley was brought into the series to replace Doyle. He replaces Doyle as the other main male character, he fills Doyle’s role of knowing a lot about demons and the supernatural, he fills Doyle’s comedic role and they did pretty much just replace the bickering Cordy/Doyle dynamic with Cordy/Wes instead. He’s such an obvious replacement for Doyle as a viewer that it would be odd if the characters themselves didn’t draw the obvious comparisons. And I like Angel slipping up here because it keeps the memory of Doyle alive when the show obviously continues to move the story forward.

I do get pretty frustrated by Wesley in this episode. I’m not sure how falls for Ethros goading him so easily. It reminds me of how easily Angelus gets under his skin in S4 too. He just has such obvious insecurities that people are able to exploit and I would expect someone as intelligent as Wesley to be more self-aware of this.

[The Whirlwind]

To be honest, I haven't revisited this episode in years because I'm not a huge fan of the writers messing around with their own mythology once again. And in this case it's just for a twist in a MotW episode. I wished they just made him a psychopath instead. Ats doesn't have trouble introducing humans who are evil without there being a supernatural cause, so why make such a mess this time?

Well my theory is that psychopaths don't have souls. Joss Whedon says a soul is a moral compass so why would a psychopath have one?

[Stoney]

Well my theory is that psychopaths don't have souls. Joss Whedon says a soul is a moral compass so why would a psychopath have one?

It's an interesting idea. When Kathy was syphoning off Buffy's soul it wasn't killing her, so clearly we can consider that the soul isn't necessary to live.

[The Whirlwind]

It's an interesting idea. When Kathy was syphoning off Buffy's soul it wasn't killing her, so clearly we can consider that the soul isn't necessary to live.

I watched five by five last night and found a quote that seems to support my theory. Wesley is trying to convince Cordelia that the guy will do the right thing by testifying against Wolfram and Hart's client.

"He may be a ruffian but he already has a soul and therefore deep down a desire to do right".

[Stoney]

Yes, it's the moral conscience tied to a soul rather than it being a life essence. It is an interesting pespective.

But then, when we look at a character like Anya who actively wanted to take revenge and attracted the attention of D'Hoffryn through her actions, would you see her as soulless? She certainly didn't seem to change much when she became human and it arguably took her years of living with humans to start to see her past actions differently. But when Halfrek is killed D'Hoffryn talks of taking, 'the life and soul of a vengeance demon'. That could be seen to suggest that Anya was souled, or did she gain some demonic 'soul' and that in itself is different?

[The Whirlwind]

Yes, it's the moral conscience tied to a soul rather than it being a life essence. It is an interesting pespective.

But then, when we look at a character like Anya who actively wanted to take revenge and attracted the attention of D'Hoffryn through her actions, would you see her as soulless? She certainly didn't seem to change much when she became human and it arguably took her years of living with humans to start to see her past actions differently. But when Halfrek is killed D'Hoffryn talks of taking, 'the life and soul of a vengeance demon'. That could be seen to suggest that Anya was souled, or did she gain some demonic 'soul' and that in itself is different?

i guess in Anya's twisted view maybe she was being moral by taking revenge on those men? Either way the treatment the writers give her is annoying as Angel and Spike both feel remorse and accept blame while she gleefuly brags about what she did and shows no guilt at all. It doesn't really seem like we are meant to judge her for this either.