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The impact of losing Doyle

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    Lostsoul666
    Scooby Gang

  • Lostsoul666
    replied
    Found this old tweet from David's Twitter account on Reddit.

    ​​​​​​

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  • Synch
    Bronze Party-Goer

  • Synch
    replied
    Kelly A. Manners (Angel producer, the on-set one, like Gareth Davies at Buffy)

    From the same book

    It was a terrible thing to watch.He came in with a horrible drug and alcohol problem. I think by the second episode after we let him go, everybody realized that the decision made was the right one.

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  • DeepBlueJoy
    Scooby Gang

  • DeepBlueJoy
    replied
    I am an addict (In longterm recovery). I have also worked with addicts as a health care provider and as a peer counsellor for close to 3 decades.

    As sympathetic as I am to Glenn, I am utterly in agreement with the choice to fire him.

    Actually, sometimes being fired can be the catalyst that leads to hitting bottom and seeking recovery.

    Addicts are not responsible for their addiction, but consequences follow toxic behaviour and it is not reasonable to hold employers responsible for fixing the problem.

    Even when they try, (and we don't know that they did not) the chance of success is low. Even when addicts are ready for recovery, it often takes multiple tries. Given that Glenn later overdosed, it is clear his struggle failed (and it was not right after being fired, so i do not think blame should fall on the showrunners of Ats.)

    A show is fast paced and has financial responsibilities to the investor and to all who work on the show. Every wasted take costs money and time. It seemed like they cared about him, but frankly, nursing sick actors is not the job of any show.

    Even if they wanted to help, helping an addict get and stay clean is often a long and painful process when you have a ready addict with all the supports, peer, professional and family. The set of a flegdling TV show is a stressful, demanding arena, even for prepared, sober actors.

    It might have been different had he been a big star with years on a series, but even movie stars get fired and some even end up in prison. There is a reason there's the club of 28 - so many talented people end of dying from their addiction at that age.


    "Jails, institutions or death" is a frequent, predictable outcome of an addict's life.

    It sucks beyond the telling of it.
    DeepBlueJoy
    Scooby Gang
    Last edited by DeepBlueJoy; 02-10-21, 02:48 AM.

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  • TimeTravellingBunny
    Slayer

  • TimeTravellingBunny
    commented on 's reply
    That sounds like it was really not how you deal with an addict if you want to help them.
  • Priceless
    Slayer

  • Priceless
    commented on 's reply
    Really sad. I wonder if nowadays the production company (or whoever) would try harder to get him help. But you can't help those who don't want to be helped.
  • Stoney
    Well Spiked

  • Stoney
    commented on 's reply
    So painfully sad.
  • Synch
    Bronze Party-Goer

  • Synch
    replied
    David Greenwalt:

    Look, I totally support actors laughing and talking right up until the call of action. Except when they're laughing at their performance and their lack of professionalism. I took him into my little motor home, we were in downtown L.A., and let's say, this was around episode four of five. I said to him, 'Look me in the eye. I'm a serial killer. You're going to die. You may not come to my set not knowing your lines. A lot of these people are driving a long way here to work, and they have eighteen-hour days. They work very, very hard for a hell lot less money than you're making, and I will not stand for it. Do you understand me?' And he began to cry. So I assumed he understood me, but then of course absolutely nothing changed and we ended up killing him, heroically, in episode nine.

    Slayers & Vampires page 336

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  • DeepBlueJoy
    Scooby Gang

  • DeepBlueJoy
    replied
    Until season 5 no major character actually died. So they were all safe until then. Even after what happened to CC in season 4, she did not actually die until season 5. Of course, by the end of the series only Angel, Spike and Lorne were left alive. Illyria was not Fred.

    Glenn's firing was a singular event at the time, necessitated by his addiction. This resulted in Doyle's death, which was hugely impactful. I think "Hero" ended up being a lovely memorial for Glenn Quinn.

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  • TimeTravellingBunny
    Slayer

  • TimeTravellingBunny
    replied
    Originally posted by Nina View Post
    The biggest impact might have been related to the storytelling. I've no idea if Greenwalt and Whedon started Ats with a BtVS-like structure in mind. But if they did, it was no longer possible after Doyle's death. The main trio didn't even make it to episode 10. It paved the way for Cordelia's death down the line. No character but Angel was safe. .
    As it turns out, they were all safe except when the showrunners had an issue with an actor (Glenn Quinn for his drug addiction, CC for different reasons) or when Whedon wanted to give an actor a different role and was bored by her previous character (Fred).

    Maybe it's just me getting sick of that phrase getting repeated so much whenever showrunners try to boast about how oh so edgy they are, but these days it just makes me roll my eyes. If you don't know a better way to show that there are high stakes than killing off a character within the first few episodes, wiithout first properly developing their storyline to make it count more and be more emotional, you're kind of a bad writer as you're just wasting a character and a potentially much stronger storyline you could do later on.

    Leave a comment:

  • TimeTravellingBunny
    Slayer

  • TimeTravellingBunny
    commented on 's reply
    And as the rest of the show showed, everyone was safe until they Joss had an issue with the actor (Charisma) or wanted to give them another role (Amy Acker).
  • TimeTravellingBunny
    Slayer

  • TimeTravellingBunny
    commented on 's reply
    Except we now know that "we had to establish nobody is safe" reason they gave was BS. They just killed him off because of GQ's drug addiction.
  • BtVS fan
    Slayer

  • BtVS fan
    replied
    Originally posted by Skippcomet View Post
    It's weird to remember just how upset and angry fans were when spoilers that Doyle was being written out of the show came out. I'm pretty sure they came at the same time as spoilers for Oz's departure from BtVS were leaked; I remember taking a day off from the 'net in fall of 1999 and when I got back on, all anybody in fandom was talking about were the spoilers for both departures. Fandom was pissed. People were trying to organize boycotts of the show to force ME to bring Doyle back. But as others have said, Doyle only appeared in nine episodes, so the outrage over his departure really was out of proportion to the show's length of production.
    I think also there was the issue of what type of show they were trying to do at the time. Joss admits it wasn't until Eternity (late in the season) that he realised they were doing Anthologies.

    For GQ time on the show it was meant to be Victim/Monster of the Week.
    Doyle and the visions was just meant to be a glorified exposition/plot device. He tells Angel about the Monster that Angel needs to kill and the good looking white girl (amazing how often that happened from so called feminist Director) that Angel needs to save and that was pretty much it.

    Leave a comment:

  • Skippcomet
    Scooby Gang

  • Skippcomet
    replied
    It's weird to remember just how upset and angry fans were when spoilers that Doyle was being written out of the show came out. I'm pretty sure they came at the same time as spoilers for Oz's departure from BtVS were leaked; I remember taking a day off from the 'net in fall of 1999 and when I got back on, all anybody in fandom was talking about were the spoilers for both departures. Fandom was pissed. People were trying to organize boycotts of the show to force ME to bring Doyle back. But as others have said, Doyle only appeared in nine episodes, so the outrage over his departure really was out of proportion to the show's length of production.

    Leave a comment:

  • American Aurora
    Slayer

  • American Aurora
    commented on 's reply
    I love Wesley - but I wish that they could have kept Doyle as well only for the half-human, half-demon struggle that kinda mirrors Angel's struggle. At least as a recurring character if not main cast.
  • BtVS fan
    Slayer

  • BtVS fan
    replied
    Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
    Doyle's death was absolutely necessary for propelling the series forwards in a lot of key ways.

    For a start, it established that no character is really ever safe on AtS which set it apart from BtVS and was something they committed to throughout the series (with the loss of then Cordy, Fred and Wesley). I think he also served as a good bridge between Angel switching from BtVS/AtS as well as giving Cordy greater purpose and introducing Wesley. Had AtS started immediately with Angel happening to run into both Cordy and Wesley in LA and Cordy somehow getting the visions straight away too, it would have felt too much. Having Doyle initially allowed Wes' inclusion to be staggered and feel more organic and also introduced us to the concept of the visions/PTB gradually before then passing them onto Cordy who would carry that idea onwards of the remainder of the show.

    Personally, I was never all that enamoured by Doyle. I did really like his relationship with Angel as it was by far the sweetest relationship Angel had with another male in the series and Angel was really patient, kind and quite loving towards him. Considering how aggressive Angel's relationships with Wes and Gunn could often be on both sides (yelling at each other, getting in each other's faces, being physically intimidating or even occasionally laying hands on each other etc) it always stands out to me how differently the Angel/Doyle relationship was in comparison. However, Doyle himself didn't interest me all that much and I personally wasn't all that taken with Glenn Quinn's performance of him and felt the acting a bit "off" at times. His line deliveries didn't always quite land for me. I did still find his death scene and the video footage straight after really quite moving ("Is that it? Am I done?") but overall I thought Wesley/Alexis fit with the show much better.
    Originally Doyle was meant to be Whistler but they couldn't get the actor back

    Leave a comment:

  • Stoney
    Well Spiked

  • Stoney
    commented on 's reply
    Ah, that might be something I'd heard in the past about him returning. That would have been really impactful and hard to deal with. I wouldn't want it over that S5 nod to where they started though.
  • PuckRobin
    Rogue Scholar

  • PuckRobin
    replied
    I think they were thinking of bringing Doyle back as a Big Bad -- maybe as a variation of the Jasmine arc. Possibly as an evil thing in Doyle's form.

    Leave a comment:

  • vampmogs
    Slayer Supporter

  • vampmogs
    replied
    Doyle's death was absolutely necessary for propelling the series forwards in a lot of key ways.

    For a start, it established that no character is really ever safe on AtS which set it apart from BtVS and was something they committed to throughout the series (with the loss of then Cordy, Fred and Wesley). I think he also served as a good bridge between Angel switching from BtVS/AtS as well as giving Cordy greater purpose and introducing Wesley. Had AtS started immediately with Angel happening to run into both Cordy and Wesley in LA and Cordy somehow getting the visions straight away too, it would have felt too much. Having Doyle initially allowed Wes' inclusion to be staggered and feel more organic and also introduced us to the concept of the visions/PTB gradually before then passing them onto Cordy who would carry that idea onwards of the remainder of the show.

    Personally, I was never all that enamoured by Doyle. I did really like his relationship with Angel as it was by far the sweetest relationship Angel had with another male in the series and Angel was really patient, kind and quite loving towards him. Considering how aggressive Angel's relationships with Wes and Gunn could often be on both sides (yelling at each other, getting in each other's faces, being physically intimidating or even occasionally laying hands on each other etc) it always stands out to me how differently the Angel/Doyle relationship was in comparison. However, Doyle himself didn't interest me all that much and I personally wasn't all that taken with Glenn Quinn's performance of him and felt the acting a bit "off" at times. His line deliveries didn't always quite land for me. I did still find his death scene and the video footage straight after really quite moving ("Is that it? Am I done?") but overall I thought Wesley/Alexis fit with the show much better.

    Leave a comment:

  • Stoney
    Well Spiked

  • Stoney
    replied
    I agree that Doyle as a side kick works better than Angel being mentored or guided by his own watcher type character. Especially as Doyle was also struggling to fit in which gave him some connection with Angel rather than him just getting the visions and sending Angel out to fight. When Angel does later gain a watcher with Wes it works differently as Wes is such a no hoper, stumbling in the aftermath of his rejection by the Council and searching for a path himself and place to belong.

    Originally posted by BtVS fan View Post
    I believe the script IGYUMS was originally written for Doyle and not Wesley.
    I think he was going to die but later in the season and probably brought back to given his popularity
    Gaining the emotional punch of losing Doyle definitely gives an emotional layer to Angel's mission as it started with Doyle. I think losing Doyle in S1 really builds into what comes from then, but later in the season, or perhaps even the next, may have been the original plan.

    The trio of Angel/Cordelia/Wes does work very well. And the addition of Gunn towards the end of the first season also starts to bring in another layer and have Angel successfully making those wider human connections at ground level that Doyle was initially setting him out to do. I could see that losing Doyle closer to meeting Gunn could have emphasised that progression over the first season, alongside him building his closer family unit too.

    What I heard was that they were concerned that he would take Boreanaz down that path with him as they were good friends in real life. Now you can't have the main star of your brand new spin off a drug addict and so they fired him.
    That does make sense, but is sad for Glenn if it separated them somewhat. I can't imagine it helped his downward spiral but having the work obviously wasn't stopping it.

    Leave a comment:

  • BtVS fan
    Slayer

  • BtVS fan
    replied
    Originally posted by DeepBlueJoy View Post
    i always adored Doyle and I was heartbroken when he died. Still, I think his loss really did move the series forward. I think that Cordelia in particular became more than she could have been without the visions to snap her out of her selfish, insular world.

    That said, I wish that we'd had more of Doyle, maybe with him coming back as a reward a the end of that season, something that became impossible as Glenn Quinn OD'd.

    I believe Glenn was either fired or encouraged to leave b/c of his addiction. No idea what their original plans for the character were, but I think having another demon on the team longterm would have been an interesting and powerful thing. It made the series unique even for that short arc.

    I am sad it could not happen. I suspect they wanted him longterm since they went to the trouble of creating a "whistler-like" character. The original actor being unavailable. Frankly, i think that was a gift as Glenn was a softer, sweeter and more rounded character. i doubt we would have loved Max Perlich's version anywhere as much.

    For a character who lasted only a few episodes, people seem to remember him with a fondness out of proportion to his time in the series. Even when they brought Cordelia back for her swan song, they found a way to give him one too. Doyle mattered a lot to the series and I think that both Doyle and Glenn mattered to everyone on the show. I wish Glenn had found recovery. Sighs. RIP, Glenn.
    Oh god I hate the Whistler character. He just grated everytime I heard or saw him on screen.
    Glenn Quin performance really made that character work. Plus changing the character from a mentor to Angel to a friend/side kick works better. The guy is a 250 year old immortal Vampire he doesn't need to be Luke Skywalkered

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