Buffy 8.15 Wolves at the Gate Part IV Spoiler discussion thread

[bishopcruz]

Ok, kinda early for a thread like this but Georges Jeanty was in Ft. Lauderdale for SuperCon today and I was able to chate with him a little bit on Buffy S8 as well as take a look at his pencils for 8.15. They were rather light but I was able to glean some information on the next issue, not a whole lot, but some. I was also able to snap some pictures of a couple of pages, one is REALLY spoiler heavy, and came out OK, the other is a bit blurry, and didn't come out as well as I'd hoped. But hey, it was a crappy cell phone.

Anyhow as for the next issue, we have speculated on the fate of Renee and I can say that

Spoiler:

she is dead, Jeanty flat out confirmed it, and the pencils seemed pretty somber throughout.

First page, MAJOR SPOILERS ahead for the issue, as in climax of fight spoilers:

Pic #1

Spoiler:

So it does look like Xander gets to kill Toru, which is pretty sweet, and Drac is the one who helps him do it.

Next one is probably less spoiler intensive, mainly because it is blurry as sin, sorry about that, I did the best I could.

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a3...Photo-0012.jpg

We should have the official previews soon. With actual dialogue, so we'll be able to draw more conclusions from there.

Other things I saw from the sketches:

Spoiler:

Buffy/Willow bonding.
More with Dawn
Cool combat, with Drac involved.

Couldn't get pics of all of it, I ran out of space on my phone.

Now the real questions now become:

Spoiler:

what is going to happen after the death of Renee, and how does that fit in with the rest of the arc. Jeanty mentioned to me that there was some cool stuff coming, though he was not specific.

I might do a thread about the meeting with him specifically, and my sad attempts to wring spoilers out of him.

[KingofCretins]

I'm going to have limit my sarcasm on Renee being dead. No, I don't think that's a spoiler because I never really saw it as legitimately in doubt. Maybe the emotional impact will now reach that portion of the audience, albeit a month after the fact.

That first page you have a photo of is interesting.

Spoiler:

It does look like Buffy and Willow, perhaps, in Panel 2 looking on, and Dracula giving Xander his broadsword to finish off Toru with. Oddly enough, though, it also looks at least plausible that it's Dracula he's turned the sword on. Without the inking, Toru and Dracula are pretty hard to tell apart. Either way, Xander clearly reaching full badass mode. I am still petrified that this is en route to a villain turn which would really piss me off, but for the now, go Xander.

[bishopcruz]

Originally Posted by KingofCretins

I'm going to have limit my sarcasm on Renee being dead. No, I don't think that's a spoiler because I never really saw it as legitimately in doubt. Maybe the emotional impact will now reach that portion of the audience, albeit a month after the fact.

I always figured she was as well, but a LOT of people online were going around saying that she might have survived. It was never plausible. At all. But for those who wanted to keep wondering until the next issue confirmed it, I put it in tags.

That first page you have a photo of is interesting.

Spoiler:

It does look like Buffy and Willow, perhaps, in Panel 2 looking on, and Dracula giving Xander his broadsword to finish off Toru with. Oddly enough, though, it also looks at least plausible that it's Dracula he's turned the sword on. Without the inking, Toru and Dracula are pretty hard to tell apart. Either way, Xander clearly reaching full badass mode. I am still petrified that this is en route to a villain turn which would really piss me off, but for the now, go Xander.

Without dialogue in any of the pages either it can be kinda hard to figure out the flow of the page as well, I don't think it is

Spoiler:

going the villain route, mainly because he looks more sad than evil in the sketch. It could be Drac now that you mention it, so who knows.

It does seem that Xander might be gone for a bit though, I doubt we'll see him much in 8.16-8.19. I think 8.20 onwards will be huge though.

[alexa]

Interesting stuff bishop. Jeanty's pencils are awesome.

Spoiler:

Looks like Xander killing Dracula... because he looks sad. But also, we don't really know how many lives Dracula has? Or is he just immune to stakes?

[vampmogs]

Nice work! Some preview pages, great stuff!

Concerning the first page;

Spoiler:

To me it looked like Drac handed Xander a sword then Xander turned it on him and decapitated him. That's how it looked to me. Like others have said, it's very hard to tell Drac and Toru apart without the inks so perhaps I've got it completely wrong. Either way, it's very interesting.

[Koos]

Originally Posted by vampmogs

Spoiler:

To me it looked like Drac handed Xander a sword then Xander turned it on him and decapitated him. That's how it looked to me. Like others have said, it's very hard to tell Drac and Toru apart without the inks so perhaps I've got it completely wrong. Either way, it's very interesting.

Spoiler:

And what Van Helsing, Spike and other mighty warriors couldn't do, Xander succeeded in doing: killing the mightly Prince of Darkness! I just had to say it

I have to say that it really looks like Xander beheading Drac. Life has become a burden to the old vamp. If this is the case than Xander and Drac have really become good friends. That means losing a potential girlfriend and a good friend on a short notice. This seems to be enough for Xander to leave Slayer central. This is a theory I had. Another important player removed from the chessboard as Twilight would say. Xander leaving would be a good motivation for Willow and Buffy to bond. But the most important consequence would most likely be: Xander is the Prince who needs to be saved by Buffy. (Because A: Dracula the dark prince has removed himself from the list B: Xander most likely needs to be saved.

[vampmogs]

Originally Posted by Koos

Spoiler:

And what Van Helsing, Spike and other mighty warriors couldn't do, Xander succeeded in doing: killing the mightly Prince of Darkness! I just had to say it

Spoiler:

Well remember that Dracula "always comes back" Buffy staked him twice and he kept coming back I'm not sure decapitating him would do the trick either. Though in saying that, creatively it still works to show that Xander is most certainly *not* his butt monkey, the same way Buffy besting Drac, even if she couldn't kill him, showed she wasn't under his thrall anymore.

I wouldn't be disappointed either way. He dusts Toru and he gets to the bastard vamp back who murdered someone he cared a lot about, he kills Dracula and he shows he isn't a butt monkey and I'd have no problems with it because Dracula's just as much a bastard as well.

[Koos]

Spoiler:

Well remember that Dracula "always comes back" Buffy staked him twice and he kept coming back

Good observation. I kind of missed. But Ha! Now I am coming with something I noticed already in issue 13 and why I think it is really Dracula and not Toru and the whole secret of how to kill those vampires: Dracula's sword.

Dracula, Xander and Renee went up to a special room in the left tower (where for example the red armor was) and opened a hiding place with a key he was wearing around his neck. I would say: an important key. And there was behind a sword. Really nice looking sword.

This sword is being given by Dracula to Xander. It is clearly shown.

[bishopcruz]

Interesting, I had never really thought those possibilities,

Spoiler:

Wonder why he would kill Drac, maybe Drac had at least been a bit in on it, or maybe he let Renee die or something like that? Kinda hard to say. I'm wondering WHY Drac would let himself be killed, as might be the case. Assuming the above is true, I wonder if Drac left Xander the castle?

Man I really should have grilled Jeanty harder, but I felt I was geeking out too much in his presence in the first place (Part of it was I was taken by surprise, I didn't actually know he was going to be there.)

[vampmogs]

Spoiler:

Nice observations about the sword Koos, I'd missed that. Definitly the sword Dracula took out in his castle.

bishopcruz, maybe Dracula didn't let him do it? Maybe Dracula hands him the sword to kill Toru and Xander kills him instead (then possibly Toru afterwards.)

Very interesting idea about Dracula perhaps allowing Renee to die. Perhaps he saw Toru sneaking up from behind? Or perhaps he says something incredibly awful in regards to Renee's death and Xander doesn't put up with it anymore?

Or perhaps Xander just puts a stop to forming allies with evil vampires which is a valid reason to dust him in the first place. Perhaps he's really had enough of vamps after Renee died and is making a point that they're done dealing with them? Which I personally find a whole more believable than the idea he's actually formed a bond with Dracula.

Or you know.. it could just be Toru he's dusting and not Dracula

[stormwreath]

Speculation: Buffy has shared her power with the other Slayers. Dracula has shared his power with the Japanese vampires.

Dracula tells Xander that killing him will also take away the special powers that Toru's gang has. He's willing to make the sacrifice because he's lived too long, and wants to achieve something heroic with his passing. Xander kills him using Dracula's own sword (the only thing that could hurt him?), and Toru's gang instantly become normal stakeable vampires again. Buffy and the other Slayers take vengeance for Renee's death.

Speculation on what would happen to the other Slayers if Buffy dies (again) is left to the reader.

And in the end of episode 15 Buffy consoles a grieving Xander by kissing him, which Satsu sees and misinterprets, and storms off to join Twilight...

[sueworld]

Would Joss be brave enough to try and kill off one of the most famous vamps in fiction though?

I though the partnership between Drac and Xander was one of the more entertaining parts of this arc so far myself.

[vampmogs]

Originally Posted by Stormwreath
: Buffy has shared her power with the other Slayers. Dracula has shared his power with the Japanese vampires.

Dracula tells Xander that killing him will also take away the special powers that Toru's gang has. He's willing to make the sacrifice because he's lived too long, and wants to achieve something heroic with his passing. Xander kills him using Dracula's own sword (the only thing that could hurt him?), and Toru's gang instantly become normal stakeable vampires again. Buffy and the other Slayers take vengeance for Renee's death.

Speculation on what would happen to the other Slayers if Buffy dies (again) is left to the reader.

To be honest I don't think Dracula could be that noble. I guess one could argue that his apparent admiration and dependency on Xander could lead him to do this. But even Xander couldn't persuade him to join their fight in 8.13 until Dracula learnt it was vampires using his powers. So I'm not sure Dracula could be so inspired by Xander now that he'd give up his life for the cause. He's still an evil bastard who admits he wants Buffy and all the slayer's dead, who threatened to slit Renee's throat, who shows no compassion whatsoever for Aiko's corpse and who kills peasants for sport. I don't think he could be that good?

Originally Posted by sueworld

I though the partnership between Drac and Xander was one of the more entertaining parts of this arc so far myself.

It's been a good laugh, even if I'm hoping like hell that Andrew embellished his story a lot, because I can't believe it. But I was hoping they'd use Dracula to explore Buffy's arc more so I'm afraid. Given the theme of season 8 and the darkness within Buffy and given the very relatable and similar subject had been explored in 'Buffy VS Dracula' I thought it'd have made more sense to use Dracula to further that side of things. I'm a little disappointed. Though others have drawn comparisons between Dracula sharing his power and Buffy's situation so perhaps I need to rethink my perspective on this one.

[sueworld]

It's been a good laugh, even if I'm hoping like hell that Andrew embellished his story a lot, because I can't believe it. But I was hoping they'd use Dracula to explore Buffy's arc more so I'm afraid. Given the theme of season 8 and the darkness within Buffy and given the very relatable and similar subject had been explored in 'Buffy VS Dracula' I thought it'd have made more sense to use Dracula to further that side of things. I'm a little disappointed. Though others have drawn comparisons between Dracula sharing his power and Buffy's situation so perhaps I need to rethink my perspective on this one.
__________________

Hey, I just don't take it seriously anymore. It's just Joss's silly fanfic to me now, so anything is possible in this new version of the verse, and logic falls in and out of favor half the time with his ideas on 'who does what' I'm afraid.

I thought the Drac Xander part of it was entertaining, and rather jolly in many ways.

[vampmogs]

Originally Posted by sueworld

Hey, I just don't take it seriously anymore. It's just Joss's silly fanfic to me now, so anything is possible in this new version of the verse, and logic falls in and out of favor half the time with his ideas on 'who does what' I'm afraid.

I thought the Drac Xander part of it was entertaining, and rather jolly in many ways.

Well as you know I take it very seriously, which is probably why it disappointed me

There's been hardly anything that's irritated me about this season, this is one of few complaints. I think it's just because I had an idea in my head as to how they were going to use Dracula and I was taken back with the.. other approach.

Like you said, it was entertaining and 'jolly' and I'm enjoying that side of it but I just didn't think they'd use Drac in that way. He's definitely growing on me though, I never thought I'd say this because I wasn't a huge fan of his character the first time around, but I wouldn't mind to much if he popped up now and again throughout the season. Though given these pages that could be… unlikely

[Koos]

Originally Posted by vampmogs

Like you said, it was entertaining and 'jolly' and I'm enjoying that side of it but I just didn't think they'd use Drac in that way.

In what way did you think they'd use Drac?

Originally Posted by vampmogs

To be honest I don't think Dracula could be that noble. I guess one could argue that his apparent admiration and dependency on Xander could lead him to do this. But even Xander couldn't persuade him to join their fight in 8.13 until Dracula learnt it was vampires using his powers. So I'm not sure Dracula could be so inspired by Xander now that he'd give up his life for the cause. He's still an evil bastard who admits he wants Buffy and all the slayer's dead, who threatened to slit Renee's throat, who shows no compassion whatsoever for Aiko's corpse and who kills peasants for sport. I don't think he could be that good?

You're forgetting one important aspect of what is shown. Issue 13 began with Dracula's line: "I'm so alone." We met Dracula again after months of depression. Only when Xander arrives he comes out of it. Or didn't he?

He acts to Xander like he happy and all goes well. This is by that scene one big farce. Dracula is acting all the time. Nothing he says or does can be taken at face value: except his depression.

We don't know if he didn't know about the vampires having stolen his powers. It could be that Xander reminding him of it and him being there gave Dracula the strength and motivation to do something about it.

If we take Antique as canon, than Drac's depression started after Xander had left. This means his depression was not the result of having his powers stolen.
I do believe Dracula's words when he said that he's the guardian of his ancient powers. It has been given to him in trust. Dracula failed. Considering that Dracula has a strong ego this lost would be important enough to stop the consequences of his lost. Especially when one of those consequences is the death of Renee.

All in all: it is very possible that Dracula takes a heroic route. Pride, depression, his friendship with Xander, are factors to the equation. Dracula's selfsacrifice would be a closure to the words: "I'm so alone."

In many ways it would be the same arc as with Anya. Anya also was willing to sacrifice herself to undo what she had done wrong.

[LaJaula]

Willow: The Lonely Ones?
Angel: Vampires.
Xander: Oh! We usually call them the nasty, pointy, bitey ones.

I really, really hope that Dracula doens't do anything heroic, because I like my vampires the way they're supposed to be: evil. Dracula may be willing to help the Scoobies because of his affection for Xander, or pride, or what have you, but I can't see him willingly dying for them.

[vampmogs]

Originally Posted by Koos

In what way did you think they'd use Drac?

I thought they were going to use him to further progress Buffy's character arc this season. Since her dream in 'The Long Way Home' when she acknowledges her dark side and says she's scared of it, she's been a morally dubious area all season. We've seen her rob a bank, though she feels ashamed of this, and General Voll has claimed as part of a slayer's nature she'll always feel the need to slay. That ties in a lot with her going out 'hunting' in 'Buffy VS Dracula' after the enjoying spell in 'Primeval' evoked the essence of the First Slayer. Since in 'Buffy Vs Dracula' was all about Dracula telling Buffy she has darkness in her and that she should explore this darkness, which Buffy says she doesn't need to know about and ultimately rejects that side of her, "gross," I just assumed he'd be brought back to touch on these points again. Only this time Buffy may be lean towards them rather than reject them.

You're forgetting one important aspect of what is shown. Issue 13 began with Dracula's line: "I'm so alone." We met Dracula again after months of depression. Only when Xander arrives he comes out of it. Or didn't he?

I assumed he did. I think he's acting to Xander, he obviously pretended as if he's been fine without him. But one of the big signs this wasn't a Xander buttmonkey episode like people feared, was that Dracula was totally dependant on Xander, not the other way around. Xander is the leader of the slayers, he was having a budding new romantic relationship with Renee and had solid rapport with both Buffy and Willow. Dracula on the other hand wasn't doing so well at all, Xander rejuvenated him and gave him purpose which he seemed to be lacking.

All in all: it is very possible that Dracula takes a heroic route. Pride, depression, his friendship with Xander, are factors to the equation. Dracula's selfsacrifice would be a closure to the words: "I'm so alone."

I'm just not sure he'd feel compelled to take a heroic route for the slayers who he claims he hates. I think it was, as you say, his ego that led him to joining Xander, Xander's presence couldn't even get him to go until the powers were mentioned. Dracula appears as ruthless and evil as ever, whereas Anya had developed into a character who loved humanity when she originally was confused by it and didn't respect it. I guess they could work it so he'd do this for Xander but I just can't see him even doing it for Xander at this present time. I believed everything he said when he threatened to slit Renee’s throat or that he wished Buffy was wiped off the planet, I’m just not sure he’s the self-sacrificing type given how in love with himself he actually is.

Though if he does do that for Xander, it’ll certainly indicate that like Buffy, Xander’s capable of inspiring goodness even in the most evil of creatures. Just the vibe I got from the panels we did see seemed to indicate Xander was emotionless and cold when he uses the sword, which I don’t think he would be if he’d had a connection with Dracula such as the one we’re currently speculating.

[Koos]

Originally Posted by vampmogs

I thought they were going to use him to further progress Buffy's character arc this season.

It was a possibility, but as likely as any other. This role could also have been played by Ethan. He was killed a moment later.

The comparison between Drac and Buffy stops with the current situation they are in. The comparison with them sharing their powers. The comparison of loneliness. The comparison of ordinary Slayers ready to take over as to ordinary vampires ready to take over Drac's position as the lord of the vampires. That comparison appearently ends with Drac's death. And I think it has been enough. It would be nice if it promps Buffy to reflect on it though.

Originally Posted by vampmogs

I assumed he did. I think he's acting to Xander, he obviously pretended as if he's been fine without him. But one of the big signs this wasn't a Xander buttmonkey episode like people feared, was that Dracula was totally dependant on Xander, not the other way around. Xander is the leader of the slayers, he was having a budding new romantic relationship with Renee and had solid rapport with both Buffy and Willow. Dracula on the other hand wasn't doing so well at all, Xander rejuvenated him and gave him purpose which he seemed to be lacking.

And? What's your point? Seems a reason for Drac to end his life.

Originally Posted by vampmogs

I'm just not sure he'd feel compelled to take a heroic route for the slayers who he claims he hates.

Whoa. He's not doing it for the Slayers! He's doing it for himself and possibly somewhat for Xander.

[quote=vampmogs;213953]
Dracula appears as ruthless and evil as ever,[quote]

I guess I missed something. He wasn't even interested to go after the Albenian boy.

Originally Posted by vampmogs

whereas Anya had developed into a character who loved humanity when she originally was confused by it and didn't respect it.

I don't think Anya did it because she loved humanity. In selfless she wanted to sacrifice herself for herself and perhaps partly for Xander.

Originally Posted by vampmogs

I’m just not sure he’s the self-sacrificing type given how in love with himself he actually is.

With this I agree. And this observation is the only part which makes it hard to believe Drac would do an heroic action. But it is not impossible.

Originally Posted by vampmogs

Though if he does do that for Xander, it’ll certainly indicate that like Buffy, Xander’s capable of inspiring goodness even in the most evil of creatures.

Don't forget that Drac has had Xander under his thrall for months. They had a connection that Buffy has had with either of her vampires.

Originally Posted by vampmogs

Just the vibe I got from the panels we did see seemed to indicate Xander was emotionless and cold when he uses the sword.

It's hard to read, but some of us thought he was looking sad. I kind of thought so too.

But then again Xander's feelings and thoughts and believes are rather vague at the moment. I don't even know how he would react to Renee's death. Would he be angry or sad? Anything is possible. That's because he has been so much neglected for the past two seasons.

I had hoped we finally would see an arc about Xander. But apparently this about Dracula. I hope he will leave Buffy/Willow because he can't handle it anyumore. I hoped he would have to leave Buffy/Willow because he had to take care for a horribly hurt Renee. I had hoped he would be in doubt, in confusion, with himself because he was in love with a vampireSlayer. Apparently all nothing of the sort.

[stormwreath]

Originally Posted by vampmogs

To be honest I don't think Dracula could be that noble.

Like Koos said: if Dracula does do this, it's not because he's being all noble and altruistic. He would be doing it out of despair and angry pride, and maybe wanting to help Xander gain vengeance.

Dracula thinks his life is now empty and meaningless; that the world has moved on without him and left him behind. Doing this would let him matter again, if only for a fleeting instant.