Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 40

Thread: It's Angel's Fault

  1. #1
    Sunnydale High Student -beardo-'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    95
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default It's Angel's Fault

    Okay so i just picked up the last issue of After The Fall and Harmonic Divergence and i thought it was a little odd that vampires are liked even though they are killing people.

    Okay so right now i think that Buffy is set in early 2005 around March (despite the pop culture references, i read somewhere that Jeanty said that there are lots of references like this and we should not use those references as a timeline, i believe that things in the Buffyverse are different and some things happen earlier) anyway. It seems like Angel is set in June-September 2004.

    Now do you guys believe that the reason Harmony is popular is because of Angel's popularity. I mean he is worshipped right now, maybe people see that Angel is a nice vampire and now have been tricked to think that all vampires are like Angel.

  2. #2
    and her haircut. Nina's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    6,298
    Thanks
    2,280
    Thanked 3,700 Times in 1,276 Posts

    Default

    Yes, ATF happens before season 8. And Angel and Spike are heroes in LA. But only in LA, issue 16 seems to indicate that nobody believes the people in LA. So it's very well possible that Harmony is the reason why the whole world adores vampires while Angel is only a local hero. And I do think that she got a show because her bosses in LA are aware of the demon world, it's probably the hot topic in LA.

    Only the problem is that all those people in LA also remember bad vampires. They are fully aware that not every vampire is cute and a hero. But it's possible that people think that you have good and evil vampires, and that Harmony, Angel and Spike are good vampires.

  3. #3
    Sunnydale High Student jj.bsb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Brasilia - Pindorama
    Posts
    65
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default

    To me a still mystery is why all LA loves Angel team. They rescue every one, wright, but they where, at some point, responsible for leading the hole city to Hell.
    Sorry, I don't speak English.

  4. #4
    The Dark Avenger NileQT87's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    The Hyperion Hotel
    Posts
    1,703
    Thanks
    23
    Thanked 29 Times in 22 Posts

    Default

    No, they weren't responsible for sending L.A. to Hell. W&H did that all by their lonesome.

    "If there is no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do."
    "Nothing in the world is the way it ought to be. It's harsh and cruel. But that's why there's us. Champions."

  5. #5
    Slayer Emmie's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Over the Rainbow
    Posts
    3,163
    Thanks
    1,412
    Thanked 2,405 Times in 575 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by NileQT87 View Post
    No, they weren't responsible for sending L.A. to Hell. W&H did that all by their lonesome.
    If you pull a tiger by the tail, are you not partially responsible when it turns and attacks you? And after it gets a taste for human flesh and becomes a man-killer, it goes on to attack other people. Did you not set this path in motion? Cause and effect. While Angel and his team are not solely responsible, they set the actions in motion. Did this potentially avert or at least delay W&H's plans for the CAPITAL A Apocalypse? So it seems. Does it mean they're partially responsible for 11 million people being sent to Hell? Yes, I believe they are. And so does Angel within the text of After the Fall #1:

    (Narration) ANGEL: Everyone wants to know what they could have possibly done wrong to be in this situation...Each time, every time, I leave them in the dark...I don’t tell them that they’re here because I took a stand. My friends stood with me.

    Banner Set by thedothatgirl

  6. #6
    The Dark Avenger NileQT87's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    The Hyperion Hotel
    Posts
    1,703
    Thanks
    23
    Thanked 29 Times in 22 Posts

    Default

    They're there because W&H retaliated against Angel for taking a stand. 100% of the guilt is on W&H's shoulders and that is who people are blaming.

    You don't blame the person fighting evil for the way the evil might retaliate. The innocents who get hurt because the evil used them as punishment to strike back against the hero are not the guilt of the hero.

    "If there is no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do."
    "Nothing in the world is the way it ought to be. It's harsh and cruel. But that's why there's us. Champions."

  7. #7
    Slayer Supporter vampmogs's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    12,730
    Thanks
    2,074
    Thanked 9,190 Times in 2,791 Posts

    Default

    Agreed.

    Willow attacks Glory in 'Tough Love' and Glory swears revenge, "this isn't over you here me, this isn't over!" Glory lives up to that promise at the end of that episode when she bursts down Willow/Tara's wall and attacks the gang. If the truck hadn't hit Glory it's very likely Glory could have killed Buffy in that moment, would this have been Willow's fault because Glory retaliated due to her actions? I don't think so, and I think Buffy would be out of line to claim it is.

    Or take 'Phases' for example. Was it Buffy's fault Theresa was killed because Angelus handpicked her to kill, "hey don't you go to school with Buffy?" so that he could use her as a tool to send Buffy a message, "Angel sends his love" Again, I don't think so.

    Was it Angel's fault that "his girls were painting the town, red, red, red" because Wolfram and Hart brought back Darla and Dru all to mess with Angel? Nope, it was Wolfram and Hart's fault, Angel can't be held responsible for anything Wolfram and Hart does to others to make him suffer. That's ridiculous.

    Good guys can't be blamed for how the evil retaliates against them. They fight evil, that is what they do and they should never stop trying. Angel's right that they took a stand and LA sent them to Hell, so what? The blood is still on Wolfram and Hart's hands.
    - "The earth is doomed" -


  8. #8
    Slayer Emmie's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Over the Rainbow
    Posts
    3,163
    Thanks
    1,412
    Thanked 2,405 Times in 575 Posts

    Default

    Okay, how about this as an analogy:

    You find a ticking timebomb set to explode in 5 minutes. You warn your friends and loved ones to get out of town (Nina and Connor) then you try to disarm it. It explodes prematurely because you cut the wrong wire and kills (sends to Hell) everyone within it's destructive radius. It kills everyone who you failed to warn to stand back or get out of town. The battle Angel fought was fought amongst the city dwellers who he failed to warn to get out like he did Nina and Connor. He knew that W&H would retaliate, he just underestimated them. They punished him by taking his entire city to hell, not just the people he cared about. It's similar to snipers only taking the shot when they're sure not to hit any innocent victims. You engage the enemy when you are in control of the game and can limit the fall-out of unnecessary casualties.

    He antagonized an opponent in a fight he *knew* that he wasn't going to completely kill. He killed the Circle and Hamilton, but knew that the power of W&H would remain untouched and they would retaliate.

    When you start a war that through its natural progression involves millions of innocent bystanders, you don't get to just say 'oh well, just because I punched him first and he escalated in retaliating'. Angel and Co. didn't send LA to hell. But he was the one who set it in motion.

    When a country goes after terrorists and innocent bystanders are caught in the crossfire, do good intentions completely absolve responsibility? It's more complex than saying Angel was trying to save the world, so it doesn't matter if people got hurt.

    LA wouldn't have been sent to hell if Angel hadn't killed the Circle and Hamilton. His action is inextricably linked in the laws of cause and effect to LA being sent to hell.

    Banner Set by thedothatgirl

  9. #9
    Slayer Supporter vampmogs's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    12,730
    Thanks
    2,074
    Thanked 9,190 Times in 2,791 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Emmie View Post
    He antagonized an opponent in a fight he *knew* that he wasn't going to completely kill. He killed the Circle and Hamilton, but knew that the power of W&H would remain untouched and they would retaliate.
    Which is much like Willow in 'Tough Love' she knew there wasn't a chance she could kill Glory either...

    Angel knew they'd retaliate, he states as much in 'Power Play' but there's no indication that he had any idea they'd retaliate against the whole city. Only him and the team. Angel didn't go into this thinking "LA is a worthy sacrifice" he went into this thinking, "ten to one when the dust clears we won't be standing" he didn't ever think Wolfram and Hart would let them live, he truly believed they'd do "everything in their power to destroy (them)"

    When you start a war that through its natural progression involves millions of innocent bystanders, you don't get to just say 'oh well, just because I punched him first and he escalated in retaliating'. Angel and Co. didn't send LA to hell. But he was the one who set it in motion.
    Angel never believed it to be a "natural progression" that it would involve millions of innocent bystanders, no one on his team did. If they did they never brought it up. Angel makes it pretty clear he believed retaliation would be killing the team, not hurting the city. He didn’t think Wolfram and Hart would even want him alive.

    When a country goes after terrorists and innocent bystanders are caught in the crossfire, do good intentions completely absolve responsibility? It's more complex than saying Angel was trying to save the world, so it doesn't matter if people got hurt.
    See above about Angel never planning to have innocent bystanders be involved in this in anyway.

    LA wouldn't have been sent to hell if Angel hadn't killed the Circle and Hamilton. His action is inextricably linked in the laws of cause and effect to LA being sent to hell.
    Which can be said about a lot of Good Vs Evil battles in both shows though. In fact Kate says it way back in s2 to Angel. But the good guys can't stop fighting because of that. I would understand the hesitance but it can’t dictate to you not to fight evil because of it or evil would never be overcome. If Angel knew that LA would go to hell, that the Senior Partners would strike out at millions of innocent people it’d be a darker decision but he didn’t and no one in his team did either. They believed this would have isolated repercussions for them only.

    But hey I'd rather be debating this when we're at least including his "team" as being responsible and it not being solely Angel's fault.
    - "The earth is doomed" -


  10. #10
    Slayer Emmie's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Over the Rainbow
    Posts
    3,163
    Thanks
    1,412
    Thanked 2,405 Times in 575 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by vampmogs View Post
    But hey I'd rather be debating this when we're at least including his "team" as being responsible and it not being solely Angel's fault.
    I put Angel and Co. in my above post. His team's involvement was implied later on because I didn't feel like typing that again and again.

    Okay, one more analogy. Angel and W&H were caught in a Cold War situation. Angel fired the first shots. W&H (free of any moral restraints that would prevent unwarranted escalation, something Angel knew) retaliated by nuking LA. Who started the hostile action that resulted in 11 million people's suffering?

    No, it's not fully Angel's fault. But again he got his hands very dirty. This is Angel here. He's not a perfect white knight. He's the dark hero, the Byronic hero who does right but is imperfect. That's what makes him interesting. Ultimately did Angel do the right thing by putting a cog in the wheel by stopping the Circle? Not sure, but I think so. Does that mean he isn't partly responsible for all nearly 11 million people's suffering from living in Hell for a few months? No, he and his team are partially responsible. The battle had unfortunate casualties. But absolving Angel and Co. from all responsibility truly is reducing this suffering all too casually.

    I'm not preaching hesitation in battle scenarios. But that doesn't mean that Angel and Co. got out of this squeaky clean. The consequences of their actions follow them. Just as Drogyn's murder should follow Angel.
    Last edited by Emmie; 04-03-09 at 01:15 AM.

    Banner Set by thedothatgirl

  11. #11
    Slayer Supporter vampmogs's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    12,730
    Thanks
    2,074
    Thanked 9,190 Times in 2,791 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Emmie View Post
    I put Angel and Co. in my above post. His team's involvement was implied later on because I didn't feel like typing that again and again.
    No that's what I meant. I meant I'd rather be debating this then the same old tired discussions about how Angel's responsible and not his crew as well. I was acknowledging your inclusion of "his team" and their involvement in this as well, and how it's a relief.

    I understand what you're saying about Wolfram and Hart being a result of what Angel and Co. did. You're right about that. But I don't feel they should shoulder any of the responsibility of the innocent people hurt because of this. The Senior Partners did what they did, they have the blood on their hands and chose to retaliate in this manner. Angel believed they'd only get revenge on them not the entire city so I can't really blame him or the others. Angel’s usually always hard on himself so it doesn’t surprise me he’d feel guilty but I don’t necessarily think he should have to even if it's understandable that he does.

    It's kind of like this IMO- A guy decides to take a stand against some criminal big bads and mucks up their operation and hands one of them over to the cops. The rest of the gang decide to retaliate by hunting down this guy's wife and bashing the holy hell outta her. The guy is obviously going to feel guilty, his wife wouldn't have been attacked if it wasn't for him taking a stand against the gang but it's the gang who are responsible. They chose to attack her, not the husband he was just trying to do what was right.
    Last edited by vampmogs; 04-03-09 at 01:14 AM.
    - "The earth is doomed" -


  12. #12
    Slayer Emmie's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Over the Rainbow
    Posts
    3,163
    Thanks
    1,412
    Thanked 2,405 Times in 575 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by vampmogs View Post

    It's kind of like this IMO- A guy decides to take a stand against some criminal big bads and mucks up their operation and hands one of them over to the cops. The rest of the gang decide to retaliate by hunting down this guy's wife and bashing the holy hell outta her. The guy is obviously going to feel guilty, his wife wouldn't have been attacked if it wasn't for him taking a stand against the gang but it's the gang who are responsible. They chose to attack her, not the husband he was just trying to do what was right.
    Yet going into this situation, the good guy knows that he only turned in one of the bad guys. In this situation with the police or FBI, he normally demands his family be put into protective custody first. His not doing this action of protecting his family lacks foresight.

    It's like back in medieval times when the men went to war, they left those unable to fight protected in fortresses, in citadels. They even went so far as to have the Catholic Church mandate that violent action was unlawful on certain days and against certain people. Basically, when you go to war - no holds barred war against an opponent with immeasurable power, you protect who you can. Angel attacked W&H and as the Champion of LA, his people were made to suffer right along with him. He wounded the snake, he didn't kill it. And the snake couldn't kill Angel because they needed him, so they hurt *everyone* else.

    Banner Set by thedothatgirl

  13. #13
    The Dark Avenger NileQT87's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    The Hyperion Hotel
    Posts
    1,703
    Thanks
    23
    Thanked 29 Times in 22 Posts

    Default

    How do you kill a snake that doesn't even live in this dimension and has no form that we've seen? Angel would have died any day of the week to just "wound" W&H if it meant going out with a bang. He has never expected to actually end up fighting the wolf, ram and hart, themselves. The Circle of the Black Thorn was the most important group connected to the Senior Partners/the three pure demons (presumably that's what they are) that he had a chance to go out fighting. Angel's already killed one of the Senior Partners, but they aren't all running into this dimension as Kleynachs for him to kill.

    You don't not fight evil because of how they might retaliate. And innocents have not always throughout history been protected from retaliation and it isn't anyone's fault other than those who retaliate. Feeling guilt is not the same as being guilty.

    "If there is no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do."
    "Nothing in the world is the way it ought to be. It's harsh and cruel. But that's why there's us. Champions."

  14. #14
    Hellmouth Tourist Morrydwen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    36
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Emmie View Post
    Angel fired the first shots. W&H (free of any moral restraints that would prevent unwarranted escalation, something Angel knew) retaliated by nuking LA. Who started the hostile action that resulted in 11 million people's suffering?
    Well, actually, W&H started it. They'd been doing evil deeds for god only knows how long before Angel happened upon them. He, being a good guy, tried to stop them, repeatedly. So...yeah, they definitely fired first.

    Should he still feel that weight of responsibility in some way? Yes. It's not his fault, but if he didn't feel responsible, he wouldn't be a hero.

  15. #15
    Sunnydale High Student jj.bsb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Brasilia - Pindorama
    Posts
    65
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by vampmogs View Post
    Angel knew they'd retaliate, he states as much in 'Power Play' but there's no indication that he had any idea they'd retaliate against the whole city. Only him and the team.
    He give Nina flying tickets.

    Emmie
    No, it's not fully Angel's fault. But again he got his hands very dirty. This is Angel here. He's not a perfect white knight. He's the dark hero, the Byronic hero who does right but is imperfect. That's what makes him interesting. Ultimately did Angel do the right thing by putting a cog in the wheel by stopping the Circle? Not sure, but I think so. Does that mean he isn't partly responsible for all nearly 11 million people's suffering from living in Hell for a few months? No, he and his team are partially responsible. The battle had unfortunate casualties. But absolving Angel and Co. from all responsibility truly is reducing this suffering all too casually.

    I'm not preaching hesitation in battle scenarios. But that doesn't mean that Angel and Co. got out of this squeaky clean. The consequences of their actions follow them. Just as Drogyn's murder should follow Angel.
    Can I Just copy your post?
    My poit is, if I was sent to a hell Dimension couse a hero get the idea of stop for some moments an huge evil group (Circle Of Black Torn), I will be very upset and he bringing me back wasn't be enough. And with all this mess probably should be some kind of police inquerity if not an Congress investigation to to do a realy deep guilts verification.

    Morrydwen
    Well, actually, W&H started it. They'd been doing evil deeds for god only knows how long before Angel happened upon them. He, being a good guy, tried to stop them, repeatedly. So...yeah, they definitely fired first.
    If we go to this point, not at all couse the earth was first a demons land so the beings responsible for the banishment of th Old Ones/ Pure Demons were "invaders"
    Sorry, I don't speak English.

  16. #16
    and her haircut. Nina's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    6,298
    Thanks
    2,280
    Thanked 3,700 Times in 1,276 Posts

    Default

    He could've gave Nina those tickets because he was afraid that they would go after her. The same for Connor. That they would kill people who are loved by him? Which they did in the end, Angel loves humanity and W&H went after all the people in LA. But that Angel didn't saw it coming and only though that they would hurt the people who are very close to him?

  17. #17
    Slayer Supporter vampmogs's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    12,730
    Thanks
    2,074
    Thanked 9,190 Times in 2,791 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Emmie View Post
    Angel attacked W&H and as the Champion of LA, his people were made to suffer right along with him. He wounded the snake, he didn't kill it. And the snake couldn't kill Angel because they needed him, so they hurt *everyone* else.
    But Angel couldn't possibly see that coming? It's one thing for Angel to get people who knew him by close association out of town like he tried to do with Nina and getting Connor away. But it's another big leap to say that extends to every single human in the entire city of Los Angeles. I mean Angel really can't be blamed for that? It'd be interesting to dig up old posts before 'After the Fall' and actually see how many fans assumed that when we cut out of that alleyway in 'Not Fade Away' the Senior Partners sent LA to hell or punished the entire human population. Because if the majority of fans didn't see it as likely, Angel certainly shouldn't have to. The only thing driven home in 'Power Play' and 'Not Fade Away' was that they'd get revenge on Angel and Co, not the random human population.
    Last edited by vampmogs; 08-03-09 at 04:58 AM.
    - "The earth is doomed" -


  18. #18
    Sunnydale High Student Troll's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Pilipinas
    Posts
    64
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default

    Well, this certainly is surprising - Angel getting blamed for LA getting sucked into hell.

    I'll agree that Angel's hands aren't clean as is the case with Drognyn thing (It was pretty disturbing to see Angel killing Paul Atreides! XD), but then again what real life battles ever are? One of the best things I loved about NFA was that it was a noble battle shown in the most bloody, dirty and all together morally ambiguous manner, which in turn makes it very realistic. It had no shining heroes or evil looking villains, it showed normal people with normal strengths and weaknesses taking on the human condition in regards to evil. It's not pretty, but to me it's very honest and very truthful.

    Basically, Angel started a war, and in war people get hurt. No winners or losers just victims and the ones who do the victimizing. It's not pretty, and feel good philosophies can't really help. If we blame Angel for the Hell-A incident, because he made a stand against Wolfram and Heart then we might as well blame Buffy for those who were killed by the Mayor when she lead them in the fight in season 3.

    On the other hand, Angel took on the Blackthorn because he wanted to help make a world without pain or evil - without WR&H. Is that a good thing? Not necessarily. Stalin and Hitler tried to make a world a better place too. So did Jasmine through her OPRAH FigHtan mAgiCKS. The difference between Angel and these other guys is that the latter believed that only they had the answer.

    This goal isn't necessarily good, but then again, how can you find out what is truly good if WR&H is controlling you like Big Brother. As always, Angel was going into a very gray territory when he pulled off his plan, and the consequences (at that point) were clearly unpredictable, but he wanted to change something. And all the great poets, heroes and philosophers throughout history wanted the same thing - to make the world a better place, even while recognizing that they may wrong.

    It didn't mean they were all squeaky clean supah heroes. In some cases, they screwed up badly, but it's the spirit of such acts that make them all worth while.

    And in the end that was what Angel was about - trying, believing, failing and doing it all over again until you get something right. In many ways, Angel never really changed since the day of his ensoulment days. He's still struggling with his moral framework but at the same time, putting enough in faith to act them out.

    to conclude, I'd like to quote the words of a salty Hungarian religious scholar, Dr. Stephan Hoeller: War is not the answer and Pacifism is not the answer. Spirit is the Answer.

    Okay, Trolling ended. Peace and chicken grease.

  19. #19
    Scooby Gang Bloodsucker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    in a crypt
    Posts
    709
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post

    Default

    Can't see the public blaming Angel and his crew for what happened. After all, what they saw most of the time was Angel doing his best to save them from the evil surrounding them. Not actually havign been able to read the comics, I'm not even sure how much they know (that is, if they know at all that Wolfram & Hart were retaliating for Angel & Co taking out the Circle of the Black Thorn). And if they did - well, the Circle was planning an apocalypse, and pretty soon. I'm fairly sure the public would find taking them out and havign to endure retaliation the better option than actually having to endure the end of the world, as far as that can be endured at all.
    Sin is what I feast upon
    I'm forging my crematorium
    Your tomb is waiting here for you
    Welcome to my ritual

    -Judas Priest, Death

  20. #20
    Sunnydale High Student jj.bsb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Brasilia - Pindorama
    Posts
    65
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Troll View Post
    Basically, Angel started a war, and in war people get hurt. No winners or losers just victims and the ones who do the victimizing. It's not pretty, and feel good philosophies can't really help.
    Yeah, he started a war, in the middle of L.A. It isn't a good idea to me.

    If we blame Angel for the Hell-A incident, because he made a stand against Wolfram and Heart then we might as well blame Buffy for those who were killed by the Mayor when she lead them in the fight in season 3.
    Those people knew they will going to a battle, they have weapons, and buffy didn't start it. The Mayor ascended there. Without Buffy and the weapons they will just be food.

    On the other hand, Angel took on the Blackthorn because he wanted to help make a world without pain or evil - without WR&H.
    I think he hasn't so much hope:

    ANGEL
    We're in a machine. The Black Thorn runs it. We can bring their gears to a grinding halt, even if it's just for a moment.
    Sorry, I don't speak English.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •