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Thread: Questions about Season Eight.

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    Slayer Koos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael View Post
    Koos,
    I don't know what "fanwanking" is but it does not sound like a very nice hobby.
    Fanwanking means that you interpreting canon in the way you want to see it. You see Spike as a hero and the only trustworthy person in Buffy's life and whatever shining is coming out of his butt (literally in Chosen actually) and how wonderful his love arc with Buffy was. Well, this is called fanwanking, because this is the way you want to see it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael View Post
    I am not and never have been a fan of Spike.He was a fine villain at the start but the writers threw him away, turning him into a sentimental joke. In s7 he comes good at the end, and he passes the test of loyalty. He helps to save the world which he could not have done if Giles and Wood and had their way.
    We were discussing Giles and you try to hero-worship Spike in every attempt you can. I don't see what Spike has to do with this discussion in any way regarding Spike other than that Giles tried to backstab him. And you also do this over the backs of every other character you can. Characters whom have no part in this discussion regarding Giles at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Koos View Post
    Fanwanking means that you interpreting canon in the way you want to see it.
    Though there's the other meaning, which is making far-fetched excuses for bad writing/canon that sucks. IE "Season 7 was intentionally bad to make us like season 6 more by comparison" (not my opinion, just an eg of a far fetched explanation!). Kinda fans-as-Jesuits, with the twisty explanations. Or...re season 8...all the discussions surrounding whether Warren was dead or not, to excuse the fact that Joss (as admitted in the letters page) basically just made a mistake in the writing.

    Actually, you could say that fanwanking is like government spin, also known as polishing a turd.

    Here's the government equivalent. Basically, a government body made a logo that looked like someone having a bit of "gentleman's time". And they brazened it out, almost seeming to suggest that that's what they were going for!!

    http://timesonline.typepad.com/comme...iginal-lo.html

    "We concluded that the effect was generic to the particular combination of the letters 'OGC' - and is not inappropriate to an organisation that's looking to have a firm grip on government spend."


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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfie Gilmore View Post
    not inappropriate to an organisation that's looking to have a firm grip on government spend.


    And on the subject of fanwanking (), it's one of those irregular verbs.
    "I come up with ingenious explanations."
    "You retcon things."
    "He's a fanwanker."

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    Koos,
    I have never before had my words so distorted as they have been by you.

    I have never said anything that could be interpreted as hero worship of Spike. I have said more than once that I regard Buffy's affair with Spike as "the most regrettable sub-plot in the whole of BtVS".

    The conspiracy between Wood and Giles to kill Spike behind Buffy's back was a major turning point in the relationship between Giles and Buffy. Nothing could ever be the same again.

    I am not obsessed with Spike, but you are.

    Vampmogs,

    I don't care whether Giles sees himself as Buffy's father,godfather, or dutch uncle. He tried by deception to overrule his chief and kill a valuable warrior on the eve of a desperate battle. To me that counts as treason.

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    Lonely God tangent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael View Post
    tangent,
    If you deceive a close colleague by conducting a secret operation to get a result which you know your colleague would not like, then you are trying to exercise power beyond your legitimate authority. The logic is inescapable. It is also pretty clear that the person doing it probably has an unsatisfied ego.
    Okay one more shot at this because I don't really want to take over an entire thread with this one Issue

    1) Buffy and Giles are not colleagues. They have a close personal relationship and both choose to work together to fight evil. Neither, at the time the Spike issue comes up is the boss of the other. Both are autonomous individuals who share a goal. Saying what Giles does amounts to an attempt to 'exercise power beyond your legitimate authority' is implying that he needs some kind of permission to act. He doesn't, not here, not in season 8. You could equally say that Buffy is exercising power beyond her authority when she de-chips Spike. After all she doesn't consult anyone. Also the Spike as valuable warrior thing is not true at this time. At the exact moment of LMPTM Spike is a dangerous sleeper agent for the first. He is only valuable with the benefit of hindsight.

    2) If someone chooses to act in a way that he or she knows others won't understand but feels is necessary to combat a clear and present danger then I fail to see what that has to do with ego. It's not like the season 7 example occured without Giles trying to get his point of view accross to Buffy. Every time he tries Buffy point blank refuses to listen. In season 8 it's seems that Giles has made his mind up that certain things need doing, things that involve killing slayers. We don't know if this matter has come up between Giles and Buffy in the missing time we've yet to see but either way I think Giles would know that it would be something Buffy wouldn't condone or that he would want her to condone. As you yourself have pointed out though Giles is more than 'good old Giles'. He is capable of getting his hands very dirty if the need arises and more than willing to perform morally dubious tasks, including the taking of human life.

    3)You seem to have a theory that Giles wants power and authority for himself. I'd still like to know where this power hunger manifests itself, when in any previous season he's ever shown such a side to his character. To me he actually actively encourages others to think for themselves and act autonomously. He leaves Sunnydale specifically to get Buffy to realise her leadership potential and only returns in times of need. Where he is now he actually has less power and authority than before. Previously he seemed to be acting as watcher to a large group of slayers, now he only has Faith (who arguably is even more resistant to authority than Buffy). Power hungry people do not take themselves away from power.

    If you'd care to address the Giles issue in more depth in another thread I'd be more than happy to partake but as I say I'm wary of this becoming a Giles thread rather than a season 8 thread.
    Last edited by tangent; 26-04-08 at 05:59 PM.
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    Graveyard Patrol Josh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael View Post
    I don't care whether Giles sees himself as Buffy's father,godfather, or dutch uncle. He tried by deception to overrule his chief and kill a valuable warrior on the eve of a desperate battle. To me that counts as treason.
    Treason? Hardly. Yes, Buffy did consider this as treason, but buffy is not the most objective person in the group... (pointing out season 5, The Gift).
    Giles did what he thought was best for Buffy, even though it was just his thoughts.

    He thought Spike was distracting Buffy (I'm a little vague on the details,did not watch Season seven for a while and not more then once) from her role as a leader.

    It wasn't treason, It was a sacrifce for what is best.
    Last edited by Josh; 26-04-08 at 08:19 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael View Post
    I have never said anything that could be interpreted as hero worship of Spike.
    Well, if that's your opinion, fine by me. I don't see it that way. Not even close.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael View Post
    The conspiracy between Wood and Giles to kill Spike behind Buffy's back was a major turning point in the relationship between Giles and Buffy. Nothing could ever be the same again.
    It already started when Angel had lost his soul. That's when Giles was for the first time confronted with the reality of that what he was trained for: the reality of pure evilness. A reality that was made possible as the result of his own actions or lack thereof.
    The turning point in Buffy's/Giles relation was in The Gift where he murdered an innocent man hosting Glory because he knew Buffy shouldn't (and couldn't), but was still necessary. Then there's the period where he had to leave Sunnydale.

    In the same light he went behind Buffy's back to murder Spike. It was most definitely not a nice move, but in his opinion it was necessary. And don't forget that The First did have his influence on Spike, it was a calculated to move to stop something that could go wrong.

    And then there was the case where he refused to save Fred in Angel S5. This has nothing to do with Buffy, but it indicates again his need to do that what is necessary to do. And finally he thought it was necessary to murder Genevive, a Slayer. This, again, is something Buffy would never allow. And more importantly in Giles mind something that Buffy never should do.

    Giles thinks he needs to do whatever is necessary to win or survive the never ending battle again evil. Even if this means treason or even if he has to kill a good friend by his own hands. (Not that he could, for example, he risked the world to save Willow). I think that, in the end, that he does this all for Buffy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael View Post
    I am not obsessed with Spike, but you are.
    I'm most certainly not. I want to avoid as much Spike as I can.
    Last edited by Koos; 25-04-08 at 08:22 PM.

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    Slayer Supporter vampmogs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael View Post
    Vampmogs,

    I don't care whether Giles sees himself as Buffy's father,godfather, or dutch uncle. He tried by deception to overrule his chief and kill a valuable warrior on the eve of a desperate battle. To me that counts as treason.
    Giles doesn't see himself as Buffy's father figure, *Buffy does.* And Buffy *is not* his chief. I think that's your problem in a nutshell, you've adopted this entirely cold and military-esque view on the Scoobies who have always been, first and foremost, a family. In season 8 the military approach is far more dominant now than it ever was before, and even then, Buffy has never given Xander and Willow and order and I'd doubt either of them would necessarily take one either. They go and do what they want, when they want.

    Buffy *was not* Giles chief, Giles wants her to step up in ‘Bring on the Night’ and Buffy tells him it isn’t exactly what she wanted to hear. She asks her friends, including Giles, their opinion of her plan in ‘Chosen’ after coming to the realisation that the whole general attitude just simply doesn’t work.

    And might I say *again* that if it weren't for Giles Spike would have never saved the day in 'Chosen' because Giles was the only person who bothered to seek out a way to cure Spike from the First's trigger. So you can whine about his 'treason' all you like, but if it weren't for him, Spike wouldn't have ever been cured. Buffy didn't bother to even try and fix the problem, hence Giles going behind her back.
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    SFU Mourner. Matt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boltmaiden View Post
    With the possibility of getting a bunch of "well duh" responses from my fellow posters...I am really confused on Giles' role this season. Is he actually an enemy, or are he and Buffy still wanting the same goals but going by different means to get them?

    Originally I thought I was suppose to be confused but reading some posts sparadically here and there about Giles I think I must have missed something.

    The reason I say this goes back into season 7, I guess I am on the wrong side when it comes to the breaking up of the scoobies (though kicking her out of her own house was not okay) I felt more for the scoobies than I did for her, I guess you could say I was more team scobbies than team Buffy. No that I like to draw a line, but anyway. Then it seemed like that they were slowly be on the way to making up Buffy asking Giles opinion, Giles thinking all the slayers thing was brilliant...and then another curveball (Season 8).

    I see Giles motivation always being that if he can spare her just a little pain, if he can take even just a little burden away from her, that is what he will do, no matter what he has to do to make that a reality. Am I alone in this?

    Will someone please help I feel really stupid here.
    Well in season 7 Buffy technically told Giles he wasn't needed anymore, even though he stayed and Buffy clearly did, but I think the whole thing with Faith made her realise that she didn't or that he couldn't be trusted.

    I mean, Faith was pretty good in season 7, we can see that she's reformed, but I think Buffy was just looking at her to go bad again, so when Giles enlists her help to eliminate a slayer without informing Buffy, she would be a little pissed. Also, being magically transported to some place in England then nearly drowned to death would also make you see the bad side, I think Buffy has realised she doesn't need Giles anymore if he can't help her and doesn't think he can tell her everything.

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    Slayer Supporter vampmogs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt View Post
    I mean, Faith was pretty good in season 7, we can see that she's reformed, but I think Buffy was just looking at her to go bad again, so when Giles enlists her help to eliminate a slayer without informing Buffy, she would be a little pissed. Also, being magically transported to some place in England then nearly drowned to death would also make you see the bad side, I think Buffy has realised she doesn't need Giles anymore if he can't help her and doesn't think he can tell her everything.
    Problem is that Buffy does need Giles' help. As long as she remains unwilling to do the hard tasks, she's always going to need for someone to do them for her, and Giles is that person. Biggest example being in 'The Gift' when Buffy allowed Ben to remain alive. I understand why she did it, I was proud of her, as was Giles, but at the end of the day it was a foolish mistake. Because as Giles said, "Sooner or later Glory will remerge and make Buffy may for that mercy, and the world with her. Buffy even knew that and still she couldn't take a human life, she's a hero you see." Buffy told Giles in 'Lies My Parents Told Me' that she'd now kill Dawn to save the world, but until we see her in one of those situations I can't see it. Because the Buffy who said that, was the very same Buffy that in that episode didn't want to hear about the problems revolving around Spike, even when he was a major threat to the people around him, and that isn't someone who can make hard choices.

    I don't necessarily agree with Giles' approach concerning Gigi. But for whatever reason, his sources told him that she can't be redeemed. He did say that if thought rehabilitation was possible he would have given it a go, but he was told that it couldn't be. Given the revelation at the end of the episode that Twilight had orchestrated the entire thing, and given we've seen in 'A Beautiful Sunset' that he has both demons and humans at his command, it's very possible Giles sources were in fact henchmen of Twilight. Now, Giles did what he believed Buffy couldn't do, he believed he was saving the world by having Gigi taken out. We saw that Buffy was in fact, ready to take out Gigi when she was furious to hear she had killed another slayer, so perhaps Buffy has finally reached that place.

    Personally I'd rather have Giles do the hard things Buffy is too much of a hero to do, and it's something I admire in both Giles and Buffy. And Buffy needs him for more obvious things, if she didn’t she wouldn’t have had Xander try and contact him about Twilight.
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    Doing the hard things is what you need a hero for.If you cannot do them , you may be brave and smart but you are not a hero. In The Gift Buffy left Ben/Glory because her priority at that point was to get up the tower to reach Dawn.

    Giles killed Ben as part of the team fighting a battle. He was doing nothing in secret. There was no deception. Also, it was dead easy to finish off Ben. You don't need Buffy for jobs like that.

    In Lies My Parents Told Me, Giles deceived Buffy in the plot to kill Spike. No amount of evasive waffle about how they are a "group of friends" or "more like a family" can disguise the betrayal. Almost worse was his claim "I was doing it for your own good" ---as if he were the patriarch in charge of the girl who was leading the battle to save the world.

    Trust is like virginity, once it has gone it has gone forever. Giles might be used for some purposes, now and then, but he can never be admitted into the secrets.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael View Post
    In The Gift Buffy left Ben/Glory because her priority at that point was to get up the tower to reach Dawn.
    Buffy was not willing to kill Ben. She would not kill an innocent man. Just like she would not allow Dawn to be killed. Buffy at that point was not capable of doing the hard decisions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael View Post
    Giles killed Ben as part of the team fighting a battle. He was doing nothing in secret. There was no deception. Also, it was dead easy to finish off Ben. You don't need Buffy for jobs like that.
    It was in secret. It was not a part of the team fighting. It was Giles decision. No one knew about it. And murdering an innocent person is not easy. And it definitely should it not be.

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    Giles did not drag Ben off to a secret place to do him in. It was all in the open. No attempt was made to deceive anybody.

    Since Ben knew about his own peculiar relationship with Glory, he could not be called innocent in the usual sense. Remember how he abandoned his effort to rescue Dawn.

    Buffy was unwilling to sacrifice Dawn, so she sacrificed herself instead. Do you think that was an easy decision?

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    Graveyard Patrol Josh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael View Post
    Buffy was unwilling to sacrifice Dawn, so she sacrificed herself instead. Do you think that was an easy decision?
    It was pretty easy for Buffy to sacrifice herself since as a slayer it was her time to go, and in the moment she realizes, she seemed pretty calm and coming to terms with herself.

    Don't you agree?
    Last edited by Josh; 26-04-08 at 07:08 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael View Post
    Giles did not drag Ben off to a secret place to do him in. It was all in the open. No attempt was made to deceive anybody.
    It was not necessary. No one saw it. Know one ever knew. No one ever asked questions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael View Post
    Since Ben knew about his own peculiar relationship with Glory, he could not be called innocent in the usual sense. Remember how he abandoned his effort to rescue Dawn.
    It was not Ben's fault that he was also Glory. That makes him innocent. I agree with you that it was not innocent in the usual sense though. But he was innocent enough for Buffy and the gang (except for Giles) not to kill him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael View Post
    Buffy was unwilling to sacrifice Dawn, so she sacrificed herself instead. Do you think that was an easy decision?
    Not easy, but the fact that she did showed that it was easier to kill herself than to sacrifice Dawn and still left the world with Glory; undefended. She did not know that Giles had taken care of that.

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    I am happy to acknowledge that Giles made a valuable contribution to victory in The Gift.In fact there has never been any real controversy about it. Nor did dispatching Ben involve him in any real trouble or risk.

    Consider another possibility. Since Buffy would not kill Dawn for the sake of the world, suppose Giles had decided to take care of that himself? Now you would have been talking, as they say. It would have taken real guts, and I might have some respect for Giles instead of feeling the way I do.

    I agree with Josh Grey that Buffy was calm and composed at the moment of tragic destiny, but I would not call the emotional path leading to that point an easy one. Moreover it seemed that the system of malevolent exploitation established by the Watchers Council was in place and as secure as ever.
    Last edited by Michael; 26-04-08 at 09:20 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael View Post
    In fact there has never been any real controversy about it. Nor did dispatching Ben involve him in any real trouble or risk.
    It put his consiousness at risk. There has, indeed, been no direct controversy with it. But it's not hard to believe it has weighted on Giles' mind and enforced his mind on the path that has taken him away from Buffy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael View Post
    Consider another possibility. Since Buffy would not kill Dawn for the sake of the world, suppose Giles had decided to take care of that himself? Now you would have been talking, as they say. It would have taken real guts, and I might have some respect for Giles instead of feeling the way I do.
    I don't see any reason why Giles would do that. Buffy was there to stop Dawn, not to kill herself. Giles had put his mind already on stopping Glory forever.

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    In an earlier episode Giles had said to Buffy with some heat that Dawn had to die, for the sake of the rest of the world. Buffy rejected the idea with great anger, although come Season 7 she said that she would now take a different decision.

    If Giles was permanently upset by the death of Ben in those circumstances he had always been in the wrong line of business.

    As for moving away from Buffy, I wish he had done that on a long term basis. He should have stayed in England running a nice second hand bookshop in Somerset, and not making a nuisance of himself.

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    Slayer Supporter vampmogs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael View Post
    Doing the hard things is what you need a hero for.If you cannot do them , you may be brave and smart but you are not a hero. In The Gift Buffy left Ben/Glory because her priority at that point was to get up the tower to reach Dawn.
    I think you're greatly missing the point of the scene if you believe Buffy left Ben/Glory because her priority at that point was Dawn. The point of what Joss was trying to convey was told through Giles, who basically told the audience that she couldn't kill him because he was a human being, not because of her priorities at the time. I don't know how much more Joss could have done to make it clear what was going on there.

    Giles killed Ben as part of the team fighting a battle. He was doing nothing in secret. There was no deception. Also, it was dead easy to finish off Ben. You don't need Buffy for jobs like that.
    It had nothing to do about 'how easy' it was to kill him off. Sure, he was physically wounded and unable to move, but killing him off was a decision Buffy was unable to make, even when she knew it'd cost her in the long run. Giles stepped in a made the hard decision.

    No amount of evasive waffle about how they are a "group of friends" or "more like a family" can disguise the betrayal.
    Firstly, you don't need to be so rude to call mine or anyone else's opinion 'evasive waffle,' I'm sure I could easily come up with a few words for some of your points, that I don't care to share.

    Secondly, IMO you're missing a very big part of the series if you don't view them as a family or a group of friends. I mean for gods sake, again Joss Whedon has his characters actually say this in an episode he wrote and directed. To quote Buffy herself, "We're family" in, funnily enough, the episode titled "Family." This isn't evasive waffle, this is straight from the show.

    Almost worse was his claim "I was doing it for your own good" ---as if he were the patriarch in charge of the girl who was leading the battle to save the world.
    Yup, because that's exactly what Giles was thinking when he said that. I think I'm seeing a pattern here where you pretty much dislike anyone who doesn't automatically fall into line with what Buffy says.

    Trust is like virginity, once it has gone it has gone forever. Giles might be used for some purposes, now and then, but he can never be admitted into the secrets.
    And yet, Buffy asks for his opinion in 'Chosen' about her plan, and puts him in charge of a large group of slayers, as seen in 'The Long Way Home.' I'm sure they can get over 'LMPTM' when they got over the breach of trust in 'Helpless.'

    You're claim that once trust has been broken Giles can never be admitted into secrets is false, given that he broke Buffy's trust in 'Helpless' and yet, was the first person Buffy ever told about Dawn being the key in season 5.
    Last edited by vampmogs; 27-04-08 at 01:03 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael View Post
    In an earlier episode Giles had said to Buffy with some heat that Dawn had to die, for the sake of the rest of the world. Buffy rejected the idea with great anger, although come Season 7 she said that she would now take a different decision.
    I think it was great that Buffy had that point of view at the time, even though it was not the best view for the sake of the world. And it is was in this and in killing Ben where Giles started to change in his attitude towards Buffy resulting in distancing himself from Buffy (which is what I meant with moving away (not physically)). I don't see, however, what should have made Giles the decision to kill Dawn herself. At that point it was still not brought to the point that it was necessary to have her killed. Also you have to see it as a first step where Giles considered to do the hard things himself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael View Post
    If Giles was permanently upset by the death of Ben in those circumstances he had always been in the wrong line of business.
    Perhaps he was. It's my personal opinion that it is not the best line of work for him. On the other hand, without it, we wouldn't have had a human as Buffy's Watcher. Nor would Buffy have had a father-figure in him. As a matter of fact, Buffy would have nothing more that a tool in the war against evil and probably have been died during S1. Well, perhaps not either. It doesn't really matter. Because the point is: what fun is there in having a Watcher for Buffy who doesn't have flaws? It's all about the thin line of being a Watcher for Buffy or being family for her. Giles isn't someone who makes the hard decisions easy. Not at all. But he's learned a few things the hard way. And IMO since S7 he's been overcompensating.

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