View Poll Results: Chosen v Not Fade Away

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  • Chosen

    7 58.33%
  • Not Fade Away

    5 41.67%
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Thread: Better Ending - Chosen v Not Fade Away

  1. #1
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    Default Better Ending - Chosen v Not Fade Away

    Which was the better ending? Which had the better character endings? Best scenes? Which was the better episode, perhaps spoilt by the ending, or the most lacklustre episode, raised up by its ending?

    Tough choice.

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    For me AtS made more sense. Buffy I disliked for the whole empowerment gag which left me with a bad taste in my mouth. I know what they were aiming for but I don't think they thought It through properly.

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    The Empowerment spell annoys a lot of people and I understand why. A lot of the issues are considered in AtS and season 8. I tend to let Buffy off the hook because Giles said early on that there are only a handful of potentials left and they are all making their way to Sunnydale. He did not take into account the women who couldn't make it to Sunnydale. Buffy believed all the potentials left were in her house when she gave them the choice.

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    My gripe has never been with the characters, but the writers who should have known better imo.

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    I think that Not Fade Away was objectively the stronger ending.

    Whilst the Circle of the Blackthorn plot felt rushed, understandably so given the show's cancellation, it was overall a more tightly-written episode with far fewer plot holes and stronger character beats. Chosen had some pretty significant plot holes, like the Ubervamps suddenly being easy to kill as Joss concedes in the DVD commentary, and I found it to be an unsatisfying conclusion for many of the characters. Xander, Dawn, Giles and Anya had very little screen time and there was no real resolution to important relationships such as Buffy/Giles. It seemed like they had to sacrifice time spent with the characters for the grandiose battle sequences instead.

    I am much more emotionally invested in the Buffy characters but I cannot deny that Not Fade Away prioritised it's characters > plot, which I much prefer. I thought the final day sequences were lovely insights into the characters and that the whole episode felt more intimate.

    Personally I thought that The Gift and Not Fade Away are far more comparable in quality. Both episodes did a much better job of balancing the final battle with moving character moments and both the writing and direction felt stronger. Honestly, aside from the fact that I'm glad the series didn't end with Buffy's death, I would have been much more satisfied with The Gift as a series finale. We were treated to poignant scenes between Buffy/Willow, Buffy/Giles, Willow/Tara, Xander/Anya, Buffy/Spike and Buffy/Dawn. The only stones left unturned for me would have been a satisfying Buffy/Xander and Buffy/Willow/Xander/Giles moment and to touch on Angel (but even then we got a moving reference to Becoming II). I could have lived with that ending. Chosen covered very few of the characters or the different relationships.
    Last edited by vampmogs; 09-10-19 at 02:04 PM.
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    As an episode, Not Fade Away. As a series ending, Chosen.

    Chosen doesn't actually feel like a finale. It feels like another episode. Too much time spent on things that didn't matter. The core four walk was nice, but didn't work after what had happened. Ultimately I think Joss sacrificed the Buffy ending to set up Angel and potential spinoff plotlines.

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    I enjoyed Not Fade Away more. Chosen disappointed me to no extent. Lots of unresolved loose threads and many character relationships were pushed to the background with no satisfying resolution.
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    I can't stand Chosen. There's so much that feels wrong with that episode but who cares because feels right.
    NFA ends things much better and Wesley death is so well done

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    There are things I dislike in both and not very much that I can remember really liking. Neither are episodes I feel very positive about, which is why I'm personally so pleased both stories continued. I was really very happy Spike was brought back and feel that he had a lot of potential development to go, but he wasn't in a good place at the end of NFA and was going along with something really quite negative, so part of me prefers Chosen's ending for him just as a stronger character moment (although I'm happier with him having got some of that further development after NFA). But between the two tv finales I can't choose as I really could do with having seen them both more recently to be able to pick as neither fill me with fond recollections.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stoney View Post
    There are things I dislike in both and not very much that I can remember really liking. Neither are episodes I feel very positive about, which is why I'm personally so pleased both stories continued. I was really very happy Spike was brought back and feel that he had a lot of potential development to go, but he wasn't in a good place at the end of NFA and was going along with something really quite negative, so part of me prefers Chosen's ending for him just as a stronger character moment (although I'm happier with him having got some of that further development after NFA). But between the two tv finales I can't choose as I really could do with having seen them both more recently to be able to pick as neither fill me with fond recollections.
    Then why not watch both again. They're both on Amazon Prime ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by vampmogs View Post
    I think that Not Fade Away was objectively the stronger ending.

    Whilst the Circle of the Blackthorn plot felt rushed, understandably so given the show's cancellation, it was overall a more tightly-written episode with far fewer plot holes and stronger character beats. Chosen had some pretty significant plot holes, like the Ubervamps suddenly being easy to kill as Joss concedes in the DVD commentary, and I found it to be an unsatisfying conclusion for many of the characters. Xander, Dawn, Giles and Anya had very little screen time and there was no real resolution to important relationships such as Buffy/Giles. It seemed like they had to sacrifice time spent with the characters for the grandiose battle sequences instead.

    I am much more emotionally invested in the Buffy characters but I cannot deny that Not Fade Away prioritised it's characters > plot, which I much prefer. I thought the final day sequences were lovely insights into the characters and that the whole episode felt more intimate.

    Personally I thought that The Gift and Not Fade Away are far more comparable in quality. Both episodes did a much better job of balancing the final battle with moving character moments and both the writing and direction felt stronger. Honestly, aside from the fact that I'm glad the series didn't end with Buffy's death, I would have been much more satisfied with The Gift as a series finale. We were treated to poignant scenes between Buffy/Willow, Buffy/Giles, Willow/Tara, Xander/Anya, Buffy/Spike and Buffy/Dawn. The only stones left unturned for me would have been a satisfying Buffy/Xander and Buffy/Willow/Xander/Giles moment and to touch on Angel (but even then we got a moving reference to Becoming II). I could have lived with that ending. Chosen covered very few of the characters or the different relationships.
    I agree with this that the Gift would been a better ending for Buffy. Her dying to save the world was the right way to end the show imo
    As for the comics the least said the better imo

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    This is a choice I can hardly justify.

    I have absolutely no qualms with the empowerment spell of Chosen and I think the episode is plot-wise and in terms of storytelling, the far better episode compared to NFA. It wraps up not only a season but a whole series in a very satisfying way. Buffy's smile at the end of Chosen means that there is hope. It means that life goes on and that there is a whole world out there that waits to be explored. It means that there is a future out there.

    NFA, on the other hand, is the finale for an arc I don't feel very happy about. Angel's Black Thorne scheme was stupid and reckless and if the writers wanted to show that he has gone completely off the rails they did not succeed because he still looks like a champion until the very end.

    Also - four strong women (plus Xander and Giles) standing at the edge of the Sunnydale crater in Chosen as opposed to three guys and a demon standing in a dark alley in NFA - from a feminist point of view Chosen should get my vote.

    But I have to admit that NFA has some of the greatest moments ever. Illyria and Wesley: "Do You want me to lie to you now?" "Oh yes, please." Gunn about his last ten minutes: "Let's make them memorable." Spike fighting while holding this cute little baby in his arm. But above all this Angel raising his sword and saying "Let's go to work." That's a macho pose but it is also just very cool and I adore it. I also think it was a bold and the right move to end Angel with an open ending. I don't think everything needs to be resolved. I don't think it is absolutely necessary for us to know our heroes are safe and sound (or dead). Maybe they made it out of that alley. Probably they didn't. And we will never know (comics aside). That's why NFA got my vote.

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    Last edited by flow; 09-10-19 at 09:12 PM.
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    The activation of the potentials ends an arc that has carried through the entire show. It is Buffy's ultimate victory over the Watcher's Council.

    There were several problem with the ending in The Gift for me. 1) It is strange to end a coming-of-age story with the death of the protagonist. She never gets to come of age. 2) Buffy does not get to break the chain. She dies young, just like every other slayer before her.

    Once the potentials are all activated, the new slayers can protect the world on their own term. The Council can never rebuild and take back control over them. The victories Buffy won over the council through her emancipation in S3 and by calling their bluff in "Checkpoint" were only going to be temporary. As soon as Buffy and Faith were dead, the Council would have started fresh with a new slayer (or slayers, depending on whether Buffy's death activates someone).

    I still think "Not Fade Away" is a better episode, though. Wesley's death is a beautifully painful moment, Spike gets to perform his poems to an appreciative crowd, Gunn has his conversation with Anne and Angel reconnects with Connor. It is not as significant as the Slayer spell, but it is more emotional involving television.

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    All said regarding writers, producers, actors, directors, viewers, readers, etc. are what I remember, my opinions, etc.




    * "Chosen" (B 7.22) is the better series finale and the better episode.

    The only 'loose thread' in "Chosen" is whether Buffy will eventually join Spike in a heavenly dimension.


    * "Not Fade Away" (A 5.22) has the Fang Gang and Spike agreeing to essentially a suicide mission. Spike doesn't tell Buffy he's alive. No one informs any of Buffy and Co. what the Fang Gang is about to do.

    After the Fall --including Spike: After the Fall and Juliet Landau's Drusilla Issues--is nice in that Buffy and Co. aren't tasked to leave with Angel's stupid plan.


    * Buffy assumed she'd likely die in a final fight with the First Evil. Buffy and Faith are reconciled. Willow is rewarded for her loyalty to Buffy and the fight against evil. Buffy can now be a normal person or lead a Slayer organization. Spike's 'arc' toward redemption is completed.

    Angel knows he's somehow important to Wolfram & Hart. Angel and Spike know Wolfram & Hart is somehow interested in Spike. Illyria is Illyria and Angel and Spike don't care much about her anyway.

    The only problem with "Chosen" is there's no conversation between Buffy and Riley regarding 'the Initiative' being Buffy's actual 'Second Front'. And there's no discussion that Willow did a spell to make the Turok-han weaker or that that the Turok-han are so weak because they hadn't fed in thousands of years. But the fight in "Chosen" is a fight. The fight in Angel is a suicide mission that Buffy and Co. will need to clean up or that Angel and Spike will survive simply because Wolfram & Hart are interested in them.


    * Regarding BtVS S8 vs. After the Fall . It's interesting that Buffy is essentially miserable until post-Season 9 when it's obvious Buffy/Spike is happening. Angel is miserable in After the Fall . But Spike and Drusilla essentially are in heaven.


    * "Chosen" had better scenes. The smile is better than the sword swing. Spike's death is many times better than Wesley's death. Buffy's 'mortal wound' is treated much better than Gunn's mortal wound, especially when considering the aftermaths. Willow becomes a 'goddess'. Lorne is now depressed and leaves the Fang Gang. The Sunnydale sign falling is an excellent nod--nothing even similar in "Not Fade Away".

    And "Spike" is light years better than "Let's get to work." Buffy's relationships with people and their love for her is the foundation of her power. Buffy's belief in people is the foundation of her power. She defeats the First Evil because of Angel, Spike, Willow, Faith, Andrew, etc. All people who are/were evil who others would have killed and who certainly wouldn't have shrived for goodness and redemption were not for Buffy. Buffy made these people heroes. Spike dies because he wants to go to Heaven and he dies to try to destroy Sunnydale and close the Hellmouth.

    Angel's power in Angel mainly comes from being the literal boss of the Fang Gang and it comes from Wolfram & Hart wanting him for their apocalypse. Fighting Wolfram & Hart's army is simply another job. It's not a Calling. It's not duty. It's not a higher purpose. The only member of the Fang Gang to have a Calling, duty, and higher purpose is Winifred Burkle and she's killed off.

    Willow, Xander, Giles, Spike, Anya, Robin, etc. could have done something else in life. They chose to fight for Buffy because of who Buffy is. Buffy continues the fight in Season 8 because of who she is. She doesn't 'leave things' to Faith or Giles and become a lawyer or businessperson or whatever.

    It's made clear in Angel that Wesley had no marketable skills. He's literally starving when he decides to work for Angel. Gunn was literally homeless when he decides to work for Angel. Cordelia somehow has no job prospects when she decides to work for Angel. Lorne's livelihood is literally destroyed when he decides to work for Angel. Illyria sticks around because Wesley helps her. Even Spike gets cars from Angel and eventually goes on Wolfram & Hart's payroll.

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