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Thread: The Ethnocentrism of Vampthropology by Touchstoneaf starting 13th September 2019

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    Default The Ethnocentrism of Vampthropology by Touchstoneaf starting 13th September 2019

    Our next fic to be discussed is a very recent one. It has only been completed in August 2019 and it's unusal title alone makes it worth reading, so let's dive into:

    The Ethnocentrism of Vampthropology by Touchstoneaf

    https://dark-solace.org/elysian/view...t=ok&warning=5

    https://archiveofourown.org/works/19...=true#comments

    It has got about 43k words therefore I guessed a week should be enough for reading this. Discussion will start next Friday!

    Dear Touchstoneaf , if you have found your way to this thread, please be so kind as to read this:

    http://www.buffyforums.net/forums/sh...re-you-proceed!

    before you proceed. Thank you for your consideration. Please feel welcome to join in the discussion. We would be delighted and honored.




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    So am I the only one who actually read this? It had some interesting thoughts in it about the nature of vampires, though I'm not a fan of the duality idea (the human still somehow "being in there" next to the demon) put forward by this fic. I don't think the soul is the person. But the main reason why I wasn't crazy about this story was that I got a bit annoyed by all the internal monologuing from Buffy and her feeling guilty about how she treated Spike. I won't be reading the sequel.

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    I started but couldn't really get into it. I read the first chapter and it's all from Buffy's perspective and she sounds like a 15 year old girl, not a grown woman. Her voicing put me off from reading anymore.

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    I read it. We're starting comments early?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Dutchess View Post
    So am I the only one who actually read this? It had some interesting thoughts in it about the nature of vampires, though I'm not a fan of the duality idea (the human still somehow "being in there" next to the demon) put forward by this fic. I don't think the soul is the person. But the main reason why I wasn't crazy about this story was that I got a bit annoyed by all the internal monologuing from Buffy and her feeling guilty about how she treated Spike. I won't be reading the sequel.
    I wasn't drawn to read this one as I thought it would probably frustrate me and I really dislike it when a firm literal internal separation is mooted. Hearing that there's also a frustrating factor in Buffy's guilt mixed in too has me happy that skipping it to read Green Smoke and catch up on that one instead was, for me, definitely the right call.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GoSpuffy View Post
    I read it. We're starting comments early?
    No, I just got carried away

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    Quote Originally Posted by GoSpuffy View Post
    I read it. We're starting comments early?
    Oops, my bad. I thought the discussion period had already started and didn't pay attention to the date. That's why I was surprised there were no comments yet! I hope my post wasn't too spoilery for those who are still reading.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Priceless View Post
    I started but couldn't really get into it. I read the first chapter and it's all from Buffy's perspective and she sounds like a 15 year old girl, not a grown woman. Her voicing put me off from reading anymore.
    In Ch 1 there was a mismatch between understanding and voice. I'm not sure whether this was deliberate - ironic - part of the process of self-reflection. The voice changes in Ch2 but remains her perspective - partly (I think) because there's a growing awareness that her "perspective" had never been "hers" - that her understanding was the result of the ideological hegemony of the WC. TBH, I agree with much of what was said - it's a viewpoint I share but I tend not to add "y" to the end of words.

    I think this is Woke!Buffy (I bloody hate that word but it's got currency at the moment) but there's a danger she'll become Woobifying!Buffy.

    Didn't get much further and probably won't finish it. I only started it to distract myself from UK politics and the bloody thing mentions Hitler and Mussolini - I'm out!

    I might read the end.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TriBel View Post
    In Ch 1 there was a mismatch between understanding and voice. I'm not sure whether this was deliberate - ironic - part of the process of self-reflection. The voice changes in Ch2 but remains her perspective - partly (I think) because there's a growing awareness that her "perspective" had never been "hers" - that her understanding was the result of the ideological hegemony of the WC. TBH, I agree with much of what was said - it's a viewpoint I share but I tend not to add "y" to the end of words.

    I think this is Woke!Buffy (I bloody hate that word but it's got currency at the moment) but there's a danger she'll become Woobifying!Buffy.

    Didn't get much further and probably won't finish it. I only started it to distract myself from UK politics and the bloody thing mentions Hitler and Mussolini - I'm out!

    I might read the end.
    If her voicing changes in Chapter 2 I shall continue reading. The first chapter sounded so little like Buffy, or maybe Buffy on steroids, it was so quick fire and jumping all over the place. She's scoping out The Scourge, she should be on high alert and yet she's rambling on like a teenager. It felt wrong. I enjoy Buffy's perspective as much as I enjoy Spike's, so that's not a problem.

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    What's Woobifying!Buffy and Woke!Buffy? I mean, in relation to Buffy's character specifically. (I know what the terms mean lol)

    - - - Updated - - -

    PS. I haven't read this fic, I'm just wondering.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpuffyGlitz View Post
    What's Woobifying!Buffy and Woke!Buffy? I mean, in relation to Buffy's character specifically. (I know what the terms mean lol)

    - - - Updated - - -

    PS. I haven't read this fic, I'm just wondering.
    Woke? This sorta thing (as implied by the use of the term "Ethnocentricism").

    Spoiler:
    "And yet… /What if the Watchers Council had it wrong all this time? What if vampires really are souled half-breeds too? Would they tell us?/

    The answer was, probably not, because they wouldn’t want their Slayers in any way conflicted. /After all, they sure the heck never told us about where our powers come from! What the first Watchers did to that poor girl, so why would they tell us if we’re related to the guys they send us out to kill?/

    But then it would follow that Giles had always been wrong, knowingly or unknowingly, about vampires, and she wasn’t sure what was worse; her Giles, already fallen too far in her estimation with his recent abandonments, falling even further who was supposed, above all things, to be her fount of knowledge and who had been her guide into this frightening world since she had been sixteen… or that he might have lied to her to protect her so that she could do her job".


    The Woobifying? Even in the first two chapters there's the suggestion Spike was "misunderstood" (which I partly agree with). DD implies this continues and Buffy takes the blame (which I don't think she should).

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    Ah, thanks.

    Tbh, it doesn't sound like something I'd enjoy so I won't be joining the discussion, but I'm also still keen to finish reading that S12 fic by Twinkles
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpuffyGlitz View Post
    Ah, thanks.

    Tbh, it doesn't sound like something I'd enjoy so I won't be joining the discussion, but I'm also still keen to finish reading that S12 fic by Twinkles
    Don't get me wrong - I agree with much of what she says - I'm all for revision/reconsideration but I'm never sure where it stops (plus I've only read two chapters).

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    Quote Originally Posted by TriBel View Post
    Don't get me wrong - I agree with much of what she says - I'm all for revision/reconsideration but I'm never sure where it stops (plus I've only read two chapters).
    It's Buffy blaming herself that always worries me. Some writers blame Buffy for everything all the time, and that upsets me. I'm afraid I'm the other way, and don't blame Buffy for anything . . . so I'm just as bad

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    Quote Originally Posted by Priceless View Post
    It's Buffy blaming herself that always worries me. Some writers blame Buffy for everything all the time, and that upsets me. I'm afraid I'm the other way, and don't blame Buffy for anything . . . so I'm just as bad
    She's not my favourite character but I don't blame her. Initially, she's a 15 year old caught up in an ideology that appears "common sense". "Common sense" is how ideology best maintains hegemony. As the seasons progress she starts to question it more and more, then in S7 she starts to overturn/unpack things. She's still questioning it here. The introspection gets a bit tedious - but I think the register definitely shifts from the voice at the beginning.

    She does blame herself but whether this amounts to self-flagellation or whether it's honesty, I couldn't say. I've read as far as Ch 5 and I THINK you'll be okay with it!

    I'm less convinced it's Stoney/SG's cup of tea.





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    Quote Originally Posted by SpuffyGlitz View Post
    I'm also still keen to finish reading that S12 fic by Twinkles
    It’s definitely not the Twinkles fault, she had to take what season 12 gave her. But just reading the first chapter brought back all those gaping plot holes. A powerful sorcerer who is talking to a vamp in human form fully knowing that this human looking vamp is a vamp and not a human. But he doesn’t know vamps can assume human form. Huh? I had to stop reading.

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    Quote Originally Posted by flow View Post
    It’s definitely not the Twinkles fault, she had to take what season 12 gave her. But just reading the first chapter brought back all those gaping plot holes. A powerful sorcerer who is talking to a vamp in human form fully knowing that this human looking vamp is a vamp and not a human. But he doesn’t know vamps can assume human form. Huh? I had to stop reading.

    flow
    I stopped to. It was just to near the actual S12 and that was too depressing. I may be able to read it years down the road when S12 isn't so fresh in my mind.

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    The Twinkles story is worth reading. It does put S12 in a completely different perspective by cleverly adding new details and removing none of the existing content.


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    I only mentioned the S12 fic was something I was looking fwd to instead of this one, I wasn't saying anyone else should read it. I love Twinkles, plus I'd already accepted S12 (flaws and all) and could still see potential for positive in it and I like how Twinkles brings that out. To my mind, it's like DactylGirl's S10 comics fics which I also love. I haven't finished it but I have a feeling I'll love it.

    On the other hand I gave Ethnocentricism a try, but had to stop midway through chapter 2. I'm afraid I have similar feelings to Double Dutchess.

    Spoiler:
    I gave it a try, but I don't think I could make it through it. First, Buffy sounds utterly un-intelligent and very unlike herself in it. And I just can't get past the endless Buffy-blaming (and the text seems to be agreeing) alongside the selective valorisation of Spike (he wouldn't harm a fly, she was the monster, he was "right about her all along"? etc etc). It's just not my thing.

    And if it made her feel an enormous shame for past mistakes, it was as much an inherited shame—she was, after all, what she was, and meant to do what she was meant to do—as it was a personal one, to do with things she could have done differently, once, with one particular vampire who had been right about her all along.
    Supposedly soulless, and she couldn’t imagine him hurting a fly
    It was you who couldn’t feel; and you put that on him because you didn’t want to be the monster in that relationship./
    But she had been. She had been.
    Last edited by SpuffyGlitz; 09-09-19 at 10:21 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TriBel View Post
    The Woobifying? Even in the first two chapters there's the suggestion Spike was "misunderstood" (which I partly agree with). DD implies this continues and Buffy takes the blame (which I don't think she should).
    I wouldn't say it's woobifying, mostly it's just that Buffy is thinking all the time about how wonderful Spike is. And it's not that I disagree with the sentiment (he really is) but it was getting a bit much for me.

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