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Thread: Spike on Angel Season 5 Was it worth it or a waste of time ?

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    Post Spike on Angel Season 5 Was it worth it or a waste of time ?

    I just wondered how people feel about bringing Spike back from the dead to be on Angel. Did people like or dislike it and was it worth it or fundamentally just a waste of time ??

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    I am answering this as someone who hasn't watched Angel except for season 5. Therefore I am only judging with regard to Spike, not to Angel (the series, not the character).

    Spike's character regressed from BtVS season 7 in comparison to Angel season 5. There is not only the cameo as a ghost, the wild goose-chase through the streets of Rome and the not-calling-Buffy-for-silly-reasons. There is also his whole demeanor and the fact that he does not once question Angel's stupid Black Thorne scheme but is acutally the first to volunteer. He also tortures a human and lets himself be manipulated very easily by Lindsay. The only decision he makes in Angel season 5 which does remotely connect him to the person he had become in BtVS season 7 is not sacrificing hundreds or thousands of people to save Fred in A Hole In The World.

    For the show itself it was not necessary to bring Spike in. He did not contribute anything meaningful.

    But he and Angel were actually very funny together. I like how they constantly bicker and banter and make fun of each other. It's probably the most likeable thing about Angel season 5.

    Therfore it wasn't a waste of time either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by flow View Post
    I am answering this as someone who hasn't watched Angel except for season 5. Therefore I am only judging with regard to Spike, not to Angel (the series, not the character).

    Spike's character regressed from BtVS season 7 in comparison to Angel season 5. There is not only the cameo as a ghost, the wild goose-chase through the streets of Rome and the not-calling-Buffy-for-silly-reasons. There is also his whole demeanor and the fact that he does not once question Angel's stupid Black Thorne scheme but is acutally the first to volunteer. He also tortures a human and lets himself be manipulated very easily by Lindsay. The only decision he makes in Angel season 5 which does remotely connect him to the person he had become in BtVS season 7 is not sacrificing hundreds or thousands of people to save Fred in A Hole In The World.

    For the show itself it was not necessary to bring Spike in. He did not contribute anything meaningful.

    But he and Angel were actually very funny together. I like how they constantly bicker and banter and make fun of each other. It's probably the most likeable thing about Angel season 5.

    Therfore it wasn't a waste of time either.

    flow
    I reccomend watching the crossover episodes with Spike/Buffy and Faith in Angel S1 if nothing else. 5by5 and Sanctuary are must see TV and really tie if the Faith arc in Buffy S4
    That and Darla in Angel S2 for answering the FFL mystery.

    But I digress, I agree his character seemed to regress that was evident in Destiny where he says "what's in it for me" whereas Angel in contrast is being noble and heroic, it's a bit to on the nose imo

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    Quote Originally Posted by BtVS fan View Post
    I reccomend watching the crossover episodes with Spike/Buffy and Faith in Angel S1 if nothing else. 5by5 and Sanctuary are must see TV and really tie if the Faith arc in Buffy S4
    That and Darla in Angel S2 for answering the FFL mystery.

    But I digress, I agree his character seemed to regress that was evident in Destiny where he says "what's in it for me" whereas Angel in contrast is being noble and heroic, it's a bit to on the nose imo
    I don't think Angel was portrayed as noble and heroic at all. In fact, the one good thing I can say about AtS S5 Spike, without reservations, is: at least he was less annoyjng than Angel. And I say that as someone who loved seasons 1-4 Angel, he was my favourite character on the show other than Darla and Faith, but in season 5 - he was really unlikable. Now, I guess that was the point - abd Spike brings out the worst in Angel, or, should I say, they bring out the worst in each other. But Angel started it, by being incredibly petty and jealous to the point of wanting Spike to disappear, literally, for a while, instead pf helping him - in spite of knowing of his soul and heroic deed in Sunnydale. Or rather, because of it - Angel felt like crap after taking the deal to work for Wolfram and Hart, anf he hated that Spike was now more heroic than him. Spike quickly sunk to the same level, and there was a lot of bickering, dic.k-measuring and generally awful and pathetic behavior. But, it was an interesting relationship in its dysfuctionality, we learned more of their history, and He'll bound, Destiny and Damage were good episodes. Tue latter forced Spike to deal with killing Nikki Wood in a way he hadn't before - and that was the best thing for Spike to come out of that season. Also, he used Harmony again, but was confronted with it when she yelled how she felt, and at least managed to be a bit nicer and more decentt to her in Harm's Way, which would've been a goof ending for their relationship. (Trust the comics to ruin itm)

    So, a few things were good. But in the second half of he season, Spike was pointless and just there for the humor, and was reduced to Angel'a sidekick, and his actions - deceiving Buffy about his death, hanging out in Wolfram and Hart - made no sense. Plus, without him being there, there wouldn't have been TGIQ...
    So, no, in the end, I think that the bad outweights the good. If he had left halfway through the season, when he became corporeal, it would've probably been worth it. But as it is, no.
    You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

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    But I digress, I agree his character seemed to regress that was evident in Destiny where he says "what's in it for me" whereas Angel in contrast is being noble and heroic, it's a bit to on the nose imo
    Is "Noble and heroic" an alternative way of saying "bit of a dick"? Just asking for a friend.

    In answer to the OP, I didn't dislike it but, at the same time, I don't think it did Spike any favours.

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    I think it became clear they were trying and sometimes failing to make up reasons for him being there. As far as Spike the character goes, I don't think it's a waste of time. I didn't care for the progressive/regressive stuff and making him like Angel, but I don't know if that qualifies as objective.

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    It broadens the character I think and it did give him some development that made sense. Yes he wasn't his best self when around Angel and there was some foul behaviour and regression, but there was also some interesting aspects from seeing their dynamic and how they compared and contrasted. Which is what I think the point was of how they used him most often. Angel was feeling disconnected from the mission because of taking the deal to be at W&H and how he felt insecure around Spike who had fought for his soul was very revealing. Equally Spike was uncertain who he could be now that he was souled and wasn't simply following Buffy's lead and his self doubt made a lot of sense.

    Yes they forced in his presence because it had been demanded but although it is hard to believe that he wouldn't have just left when he became corporeal again, that he felt insecure about how he would be received and worried isn't totally illogical for the character. I think his desire to try to find his own way a little which then results in actually following Angel instead can be understood, even if it isn't what you would necessarily have expected. Getting caught into petty one-upmanships and childish bickering with Angel when he has so regularly placed himself against him and been in a competitive familial dynamic from the start works. We learn more about them and see the strength of their loyalty as well as how they bring the worst out in each other too. It's dysfunctional but interesting and very true to a familial vibe for that.

    In the end Spike essentially falls back to the security of sacrificing himself which I think can work for someone who fears their worth and is so unsure what path to walk. His presence in the season works for Angel because of his own doubts about himself and I think it works overall for Spike for the same reason. He makes some personal progress in figuring out who he can be now he is souled and although there is plenty of regression and he doesn't end the season in a strong place, it plays its part in him coming to terms with who he is now and who he can be. It works in that way as part of the overall path he was given, but I'm very glad it wasn't where they finished his story. But I think that for Angel too as I see the ending of AtS 5 as a really bleak and negative choice where it is a kamikaze blaze they managed that still showed a lack of connection to the mission. But making mistakes often clarifies what you do want and what you should and I think they both move on from it in ways I can follow.

    As I've complained many times there are some things they do for humour in the season that I personally really dislike in how it breaks/treats important plot and character points from BtVS and I do think that they dumb down the character excessively at points too. But people do behave differently in different contexts and Angel bringing out the worst in him and defensive posturing is hardly inconceivable. And I do think he gained some personal progress on some issues where he wasn't questioning his behaviour and facing it as well as he needed to. It wasn't perfect understanding and he did show in the comics that he still held Harmony in poor regard, but that was pretty in keeping I think with his lack of any real personal care that was still very clear even at the end of Harm's Way. He did at least eventually question this further again. So yes, he also made some pretty big errors in AtS5, but that is actually good I think for showing that he is still flawed and has things that he can improve in himself. As I said, it broadens him overall and I think works as a part of the whole journey he was given so it wasn't a waste of time.
    Last edited by Stoney; 03-09-19 at 04:09 AM.

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    I take Xander's approach to the subject . . . Me like Spike, Spike not dead(er), me happy

    Just having him and Angel fighting about astronauts and cavemen makes it all worthwhile. Their pairing is one of the best pairings in the show, they bring out the worst in each other and that make it an interesting watch for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stoney View Post
    It broadens the character I think and it did give him some development that made sense. Yes he wasn't his best self when around Angel and there was some foul behaviour and regression, but there was also some interesting aspects from seeing their dynamic and how they compared and contrasted. Which is what I think the point was of how they used him most often. Angel was feeling disconnected from the mission because of taking the deal to be at W&H and how he felt insecure around Spike who had fought for his soul was very revealing. Equally Spike was uncertain who he could be now that he was souled and wasn't simply following Buffy's lead and his self doubt made a lot of sense.

    Yes they forced in his presence because it had been demanded but although it is hard to believe that he wouldn't have just left when he became corporeal again, that he felt insecure about how he would be received and worried isn't totally illogical for the character. I think his desire to try to find his own way a little which then results in actually following Angel instead can be understood, even if it isn't what you would necessarily have expected. Getting caught into petty one-upmanships and childish bickering with Angel when he has so regularly placed himself against him and been in a competitive familial dynamic from the start works. We learn more about them and see the strength of their loyalty as well as how they bring the worst out in each other too. It's dysfunctional but interesting and very true to a familial vibe for that.

    In the end Spike essentially falls back to the security of sacrificing himself which I think can work for someone who fears their worth and is so unsure what path to walk. His presence in the season works for Angel because of his own doubts about himself and I think it works overall for Spike for the same reason. He makes some personal progress in figuring out who he can be now he is souled and although there is plenty of regression and he doesn't end the season in a strong place, it plays its part in him coming to terms with who he is now and who he can be. It works in that way as part of the overall path he was given, but I'm very glad it wasn't where they finished his story. But I think that for Angel too as I see the ending of AtS 5 as a really bleak and negative choice where it is a kamikaze blaze they managed that still showed a lack of connection to the mission. But making mistakes often clarifies what you do want and what you should and I think they both move on from it in ways I can follow.

    As I've complained many times there are some things they do for humour in the season that I personally really dislike in how it breaks/treats important plot and character points from BtVS and I do think that they dumb down the character excessively at points too. But people do behave differently in different contexts and Angel bringing out the worst in him and defensive posturing is hardly inconceivable. And I do think he gained some personal progress on some issues where he wasn't questioning his behaviour and facing it as well as he needed to. It wasn't perfect understanding and he did show in the comics that he still held Harmony in poor regard, but that was pretty in keeping I think with his lack of any real personal care that was still very clear even at the end of Harm's Way. He did at least eventually question this further again. So yes, he also made some pretty big errors in AtS5, but that is actually good I think for showing that he is still flawed and has things that he can improve in himself. As I said, it broadens him overall and I think works as a part of the whole journey he was given so it wasn't a waste of time.

    Hmm I'm not sure they took a deep look at Spikes coat. It was basically played for laughs "it's my second skin, its another thing I'll never get back" Next scene "yeah this is good" "iv sent another 10 Los Angeles along with a fine assortment of shoes"

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    I thought that scene was wonderful, because it was obviously aimed at the fans who take this show FAR too seriously and who kept kicking off about why If Spikes souled does he keep that coat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silver1 View Post
    I thought that scene was wonderful, because it was obviously aimed at the fans who take this show FAR too seriously and who kept kicking off about why If Spikes souled does he keep that coat.
    I agree. I like that scene too, just pointing out that I'm not sure the show took it seriously.

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    Which I didn't have any problems with considering the context of which episode It was placed. The whole thing is meant to be seen in a humorous light imo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BtVS fan View Post
    Hmm I'm not sure they took a deep look at Spikes coat. It was basically played for laughs "it's my second skin, its another thing I'll never get back" Next scene "yeah this is good" "iv sent another 10 Los Angeles along with a fine assortment of shoes"
    I've come to find a way through what I hate about it, and I do hate that inclusion myself as it is an important character point in S7 imo that he wore it despite what it represented and how much he didn't want to have that connection but sought it because of what it gave him and how he could use it positively in the fight. A different angle to what it represented. But he was never going to explain to Angel how the coat gave him the connection to an image he constructed and how that aids him in being effective in the fight still when part of him doesn't revel in it the same as he used to. So him playing it off as shallow works in context of being defensive around Angel. We saw this play out directly in Destiny when he made no attempt to argue about the level of relationship he had with Buffy but play into the notion it was just sex and ignore (as in not try to defend) all of S7 in doing so. Sure I am making the connections to get past the way they showed him sulking about it, but it is based on established areas of the text so I'm just happy that it makes me accept what I personally find to be one of the most problematic parts of his depiction in AtS 5. Sure they didn't add depth to every aspect of the character and I never claimed such, but they did add in showing both positive and negative behaviour for him as he progressed more in considering his path now.

    I've never really seen the whole thing with the coat as mocking fans who disliked him for wearing it still when souled, but I suppose it does draw emphasis to showing him accepting a replacement readily and easily because it actually was never about it being a meaningful trophy of a kill to him anymore, and had become all about the connection to an image he had carved for himself and so the psychological boost that gives him. I really disliked the times they just took serious plot points and used them for gags, but I do agree that it is in keeping to the tone of the episode.
    Last edited by Stoney; 03-09-19 at 05:14 PM.

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    I honestly go back and forth on this. Sometimes I rewatch "Chosen" and I can't help but feel that the impact of Spike's sacrifice is lost knowing that he'll return in Season 5. However, I also think that in hindsight Spike's character learnt a lot in Season 5 and that his sacrifice as a newly-souled vampire would've been premature.

    Granted, Season 5 wasn't always kind to Spike. I think he was depicted pretty badly at times (his attitude in "Soul Purpose", his treatment of Harmony, not contacting Buffy and the way he occasionally spoke of her - "all those times I was putting it to her", his lack of empathy towards Nina and Dana, torturing Sparrow etc.) and I can understand why some may prefer his story having ended in Season 7. Under Buffy's watch newly ensouled Spike's mostly remained a crowd-pleaser. However, on the flip side, I think Spike learnt some invaluable lessons in Season 5 too and that his growth in episodes like "Damage" was marvellous and necessary. Knowing the steps he made in "Damage", I'd have thought it would be terribly unsatisfying leaving Spike dead without that growth.

    In terms of what he brought to AtS and how he related to Angel, I thought overall that he was a great addition. It would've been a missed opportunity not to explore how Angel dealt with another souled vampire in the world and especially in Season 5. Had Spike remained dead and the two had never crossed paths again (since "The Harsh Light of Day") I think would've been deeply unsatisfying and something fans would have wished for. I'm seemingly an odd fan who vastly preferred Spike in the second half of Season 5. His big episodes may have been early on ("Hell bound" and "Destiny") but I much preferred his more muted and serious relationship with Angel once he'd properly settled in. Their scenes in "Shells", as for example, are way more interesting to me than their endless bickering in the first episodes of Season 5. And Spike himself felt far more like an integrated cast member in the latter half than just a novelty in the first half. I thought his dynamic with Illyria and even Gunn was great.

    So overall I'd say it was worth it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BtVS fan View Post
    I just wondered how people feel about bringing Spike back from the dead to be on Angel. Did people like or dislike it and was it worth it or fundamentally just a waste of time ??
    I remember that even before the last episode of Buffy aired it was already known that Spike was going to move to Angel. I was actually surprised that Spike died in the last episode of Buffy.

    I think that it was a good thing to bring him back on Angel for him to play off of Angel's character. Plus I loved the friendship that he developed with Fred, and later Illyria.

    Plus if Spike hadn't moved over to Angel then Angel wouldn't have gotten another season since the WB network demanded Spike as one of the conditions for Angel to get renewed.

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    I remember that even before the last episode of Buffy aired it was already known that Spike was going to move to Angel. I was actually surprised that Spike died in the last episode of Buffy.
    Do you remember the fuss when a clip of Spikes firs appearance in it got leaked online?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silver1 View Post
    Do you remember the fuss when a clip of Spikes firs appearance in it got leaked online?
    I didn't have a computer or internet at the time. I just remembered that the news of Spike moving to Angel was in a TV magazine.

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    Yeah a clip got 'leaked out' and the Spike fandom went into overdrive!

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    I actually think that Spike was an important part of season 5 - as always he was the truth teller.

    Angel had silenced all of his crew, taken away their voices. They had no idea why they were at Wolfram & Hart other than a vague notion of "let's do good, and make this place be gooder." Without their counsel Angel was lost. Episode one shows how both Gunn and Angel were corrupted by the end of the episode.

    LORNE
    Of course, saving the day meant getting the scumbag who was ready to sacrifice his own son off on a technicality and then returning said son to said scumbag.

    WESLEY

    Fred and I have enough time to disable the charm now. He won't be in danger.

    GUNN
    And Fries is gonna have to dial down the criminal activities 'til this thing comes to trial again. Which I can draw out for months.


    Is there anyone in the world more helpless than a young boy whose father tried to use him as a weapon of mass destruction? He is given back to his father, anyway. Fries will be a bit more circumspect for a few months, so the sex trafficking will go on without him.

    Angel, as their leader, is willing to settle for this as a victory. By any standard he has shown in this universe, someone willing to allow this is actually a villain. This is Lilah and Lindsey territory, taking care of evil clients. Lorne, Fred and Wesley follow along willingly. They don't see changes in Angel because their memories have been altered, and as Illyria said, that changed who they were. Fred became a different person when her memories were changed.

    Gunn has allowed the SP access to his mind. He begins to see champion of the people as something you do playing golf. He reject his original image saying he is tired of being only the muscle. By the end of the first episode he saves the day by keeping an evil person who shows no sign of repentance out of jail., and giving him back the son he almost killed. Gunn is now everything he hated way back when he stormed into the lobby and shouted about W&H being mecca for rich people.



    In the next episode Spike arrives and he knows more about what is going on in 20 minutes than Angel's entire crew knows.

    SPIKE
    I'm not the prat here. I know you, Angel. What do you think you're doing? Made some devil's bargain to take over this company. Thought you'd use it to fight the evil of the world from inside the belly of the beast. Trouble is you're too busy fighting to see you and yours are getting digested.

    ANGEL
    (stops in front of the elevators)
    Not gonna happen.

    SPIKE
    Oh, you think you're in control here? Guess again, mate. You're no more in control than I am."


    It takes Angel almost the entire season to realize that he is not in control, that he really has no power. Most of his team never find out about his deal with the devil, including Connor and the mind wipes that changed all of them.



    Spike is a catalyst, with both insight and truth bombs.

    SPIKE

    Look...
    (sighs)
    I told Angel, and I'll tell you. A place like that doesn't change... not from the inside. Not from the out. You sign on there, it changes you. Puts things in your head. Spins your compass needle around till you can't cross the street without tripping the proverbial old lady and stepping on her glasses. And it's not like I wasn't there, gents, like I wasn't watching you. Had to haunt the damn place. Remember?
    (takes a swig of his beer)

    GUNN
    Things aren't that cut-and-dried, Spike. We're making a difference. We're just... playing by a new set of rules.

    SPIKE
    So what? You want me to... put on a suit, come play with you?

    WESLEY
    Something like that.

    SPIKE

    I can't believe Angel would sign off on that. Unless... he doesn't know you're here, does he?
    (scoffs)
    Hedging our bets, are we, boys?

    GUNN
    That's not how it is.

    SPIKE
    (crosses his arms)
    And the compass needle keeps spinning. And the world gets murkier and murkier.



    The thing is that's exactly why they're at Spike's apartment, to seduce the other vampire with a soul back to W&H even knowing Angel would never approve of it. They want to keep him under control, subordinate to Angel and off the streets in Angel's city.


    The turning of that compass needle is the theme for the entire season. Spike is the only real catalyst Angel has. He is definitely not season 7 Spike, but he's also not with Buffy. He's dealing with Angel now, and watching a slow motion car crash. He's a gadfly, an idiot - essentially he plays the role of the fool much of the time when he's around Angel. The role of the fool in medieval times was to mock the king, say things no one else would dare say, and make pointed remarks about realities the king didn't want to see.

    Spike also begins to actually grapple with his past, as well as his and Angel's. There are definitely some lines that are real clunkers. A couple of writers couldn't write Spike at all. But I like his overall arc in ATS, and I like how integral he was to the season arc.
    Can we agree that the writers made everyone do and say everything with a thought to getting good ratings and being renewed. This includes everything we love as well as everything we hate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bespangled View Post
    I actually think that Spike was an important part of season 5 - as always he was the truth teller.

    Angel had silenced all of his crew, taken away their voices. They had no idea why they were at Wolfram & Hart other than a vague notion of "let's do good, and make this place be gooder." Without their counsel Angel was lost. Episode one shows how both Gunn and Angel were corrupted by the end of the episode.

    LORNE
    Of course, saving the day meant getting the scumbag who was ready to sacrifice his own son off on a technicality and then returning said son to said scumbag.

    WESLEY

    Fred and I have enough time to disable the charm now. He won't be in danger.

    GUNN
    And Fries is gonna have to dial down the criminal activities 'til this thing comes to trial again. Which I can draw out for months.


    Is there anyone in the world more helpless than a young boy whose father tried to use him as a weapon of mass destruction? He is given back to his father, anyway. Fries will be a bit more circumspect for a few months, so the sex trafficking will go on without him.

    Angel, as their leader, is willing to settle for this as a victory. By any standard he has shown in this universe, someone willing to allow this is actually a villain. This is Lilah and Lindsey territory, taking care of evil clients. Lorne, Fred and Wesley follow along willingly. They don't see changes in Angel because their memories have been altered, and as Illyria said, that changed who they were. Fred became a different person when her memories were changed.

    Gunn has allowed the SP access to his mind. He begins to see champion of the people as something you do playing golf. He reject his original image saying he is tired of being only the muscle. By the end of the first episode he saves the day by keeping an evil person who shows no sign of repentance out of jail., and giving him back the son he almost killed. Gunn is now everything he hated way back when he stormed into the lobby and shouted about W&H being mecca for rich people.



    In the next episode Spike arrives and he knows more about what is going on in 20 minutes than Angel's entire crew knows.

    SPIKE
    I'm not the prat here. I know you, Angel. What do you think you're doing? Made some devil's bargain to take over this company. Thought you'd use it to fight the evil of the world from inside the belly of the beast. Trouble is you're too busy fighting to see you and yours are getting digested.

    ANGEL
    (stops in front of the elevators)
    Not gonna happen.

    SPIKE
    Oh, you think you're in control here? Guess again, mate. You're no more in control than I am."


    It takes Angel almost the entire season to realize that he is not in control, that he really has no power. Most of his team never find out about his deal with the devil, including Connor and the mind wipes that changed all of them.



    Spike is a catalyst, with both insight and truth bombs.

    SPIKE

    Look...
    (sighs)
    I told Angel, and I'll tell you. A place like that doesn't change... not from the inside. Not from the out. You sign on there, it changes you. Puts things in your head. Spins your compass needle around till you can't cross the street without tripping the proverbial old lady and stepping on her glasses. And it's not like I wasn't there, gents, like I wasn't watching you. Had to haunt the damn place. Remember?
    (takes a swig of his beer)

    GUNN
    Things aren't that cut-and-dried, Spike. We're making a difference. We're just... playing by a new set of rules.

    SPIKE
    So what? You want me to... put on a suit, come play with you?

    WESLEY
    Something like that.

    SPIKE

    I can't believe Angel would sign off on that. Unless... he doesn't know you're here, does he?
    (scoffs)
    Hedging our bets, are we, boys?

    GUNN
    That's not how it is.

    SPIKE
    (crosses his arms)
    And the compass needle keeps spinning. And the world gets murkier and murkier.



    The thing is that's exactly why they're at Spike's apartment, to seduce the other vampire with a soul back to W&H even knowing Angel would never approve of it. They want to keep him under control, subordinate to Angel and off the streets in Angel's city.


    The turning of that compass needle is the theme for the entire season. Spike is the only real catalyst Angel has. He is definitely not season 7 Spike, but he's also not with Buffy. He's dealing with Angel now, and watching a slow motion car crash. He's a gadfly, an idiot - essentially he plays the role of the fool much of the time when he's around Angel. The role of the fool in medieval times was to mock the king, say things no one else would dare say, and make pointed remarks about realities the king didn't want to see.

    Spike also begins to actually grapple with his past, as well as his and Angel's. There are definitely some lines that are real clunkers. A couple of writers couldn't write Spike at all. But I like his overall arc in ATS, and I like how integral he was to the season arc.
    You make some great points.

    Ie the clunkers, some of the worst I found were David Furys like in Just Rewards "I'm sure they don't mind" and the rape line about Fred "I'll think I'll have a go at that Fred she seems to really look up to you" . Fury always seemed to do a rape line in his episodes even back in Go Fish "my boys have other needs" and i find it uncomfortable

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