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Thread: Sexuality - Show & Comics

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Willow from Buffy View Post
    I've always wondered why people say this. The vampires on BtVS are aggressively ... almost comically ... heterosexual. You could accuse Spike of protesting-too-much as he accuses anyone he doesn't like of being a poofter or a Nancy boy, but he does not seems as though he will be giving up his ruse any time soon.
    Yes I was actually toying with making this point as well (I was worried it would derail the conversation). Spike repeatedly uses homophobic slurs when belittling those he doesn’t like (“poofter”.. “it’s ok I understand. I have a cousin whose gay so...” “Nancy boy” etc) which seems at odds with the idea he’d consider himself anything but straight. That doesn’t mean I don’t think he’s dabbled, I think he and Angel absolutely did, but I definitely think he identifies as straight.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vampmogs View Post
    Yes I was actually toying with making this point as well (I was worried it would derail the conversation). Spike repeatedly uses homophobic slurs when belittling those he doesn’t like (“poofter”.. “it’s ok I understand. I have a cousin whose gay so...” “Nancy boy” etc) which seems at odds with the idea he’d consider himself anything but straight. That doesn’t mean I don’t think he’s dabbled, I think he and Angel absolutely did, but I definitely think he identifies as straight.
    Yes, I think his use of those slurs comes from the fact that he has been bullied by more powerful men, so he has a great need to always assert his masculinity (and heterosexuality). Spike is already a man of many paradoxes. Thinking of him as secretly or latantly gay/bi is just one paradox too many for me

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  5. #23
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    Few people seem to pick up on the fact that Darla hates Dru. They have fun together in "Reunion" and they seem to enjoy each other in their after-sex glow in "TGiQ," but outside of that, Darla is consistently sarcastic and condescending towards Dru
    I don't think in this show that someone being consistently sarcastic and condescending towards someone means you hate them. In fact I'd say this is every relationship with a woman Xander's ever had It's also the basis of Spike and Angel's relationship, a big part of the Giles & Buffy relationship and Jenny/Giles. It's how the writers seemed to approach a lot of the relationships on this show.

    I've always wondered why people say this. The vampires on BtVS are aggressively ... almost comically ... heterosexual. You could accuse Spike of protesting-too-much as he accuses anyone he doesn't like of being a poofter or a Nancy boy, but he does not seems as though he will be giving up his ruse any time soon.
    But it is there. It is canon that Spike and Angel had a sexual relationship. It could also a case with Spike of protesting too much and what that says about you (to paraphrase Warren) I'm not really a Spangel fan, but I am sure they could argue the case much better than I can.

    I have just always assumed that if you are immortal you will eventually 'live' long enough to try everything, but I agree, that doesn't mean you're going to enjoy it.

    Outside the Fanged Four, things are less ambiguous. Most of the vampires are men and most of their victims are young women, most of whom they pick up at the Bronze. Vampires are really personifications of male violence towards women. Some vampires are more nuanced, but even with our two main vamps, it is clear that the demon inside them compels them to enact (sexual) violence upon (mainly) women.
    I agree that one reading of vampires is that they personify male violence against women, but do female vampires personify female violence against men? It doesn't work the other way around, not for me.
    Last edited by Priceless; 21-07-19 at 07:58 AM.

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    Are we really here saying that vampires personify male violence against women, when Darla, Drusilla, Vampire Willow., Sunday exist, and when the first scene in the show featured Darla pretending to be an innocent schoolgirl and then attacking and eating a guy she lured to the school?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Willow from Buffy View Post

    Few people seem to pick up on the fact that Darla hates Dru. They have fun together in "Reunion" and they seem to enjoy each other in their after-sex glow in "TGiQ," but outside of that, Darla is consistently sarcastic and condescending towards Dru. She's a rival and a loony.
    Darla doesn't hate Dru. And she never saw her as a rival. I don't know where the idea of Darla seeing Dru as a rival comes from. Darla never saw Dru as a threat, and if she wanted her out of the Fanged Four, she would have kicked her out or killed her. She's condescending to her and sees her as a weird little younger family member, so what? Willow and Buffy are often condescending to Xander, Xander is condescending to Anya and sarcastic and insulting to all the women around him, Giles is sometimes condescending to the Scoobies and they, especially Buffy, sometimes mock and insult him. Cordelia was insulting to most people around her - Xander all the time, Doyle and Wesley most of the time, Angel a few times as well. And Spike himself was condescending to his beloved Dru quite a few times and considered her a loony - because that's what she is.
    You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Priceless View Post
    I don't think in this show that someone being consistently sarcastic and condescending towards someone means you hate them. In fact I'd say this is every relationship with a woman Xander's ever had It's also the basis of Spike and Angel's relationship, a big part of the Giles & Buffy relationship and Jenny/Giles. It's how the writers seemed to approach a lot of the relationships on this show.
    No, Darla clearly does not like Drusilla. She tries in "Reunion," but it does not last. Darla despises both Dru and Spike. But Drusilla is too clueless to realise that Darla does not like her.

    Buffy and Giles engage in banter. It is mutual and mostly good natured. Darla's barbs at Dru are completely one sided and they are not blunted by good humourless or evened out by more friendly interactions. Darla sees Dru as an annoyance, a loony and a rival for Angel's affection. Angel sees Dru as a plaything and a way to annoy Darla and Spike.

    Quote Originally Posted by Priceless View Post
    I agree that one reading of vampires is that they personify male violence against women, but do female vampires personify female violence against men? It doesn't work the other way around, not for me.
    Darla is the first female vampire we see, and she is a classic femme fatale. She capable of violence, but she is not quite as prone to it as Luke is. The female vampires are mostly seductresses and corrupters of men. Darla seduces many men, most notably Angel. One of Drusilla's defining traits is her infidelity and the way she uses it to punish Spike for his failings. Willow tries to seduce herself.

    Sunday is a bit of an exemption, as she loves a good brawl. She is more of a classical mean girl bully. Harmony also sticks out. She is more of a metaphor for people who struggle to adapt to adulthood.

    BtVS subverts many gender stereotypes, but it also re-affirms quite a few, especially when it comes to the the vampires. The vampire women are quite misogynistic, even if they are a lot of fun.

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    No, Darla clearly does not like Drusilla. She tries in "Reunion," but it does not last. Darla despises both Dru and Spike. But Drusilla is too clueless to realise that Darla does not like her.

    Buffy and Giles engage in banter. It is mutual and mostly good natured. Darla's barbs at Dru are completely one sided and they are not blunted by good humourless or evened out by more friendly interactions. Darla sees Dru as an annoyance, a loony and a rival for Angel's affection. Angel sees Dru as a plaything and a way to annoy Darla and Spike.
    You could be right, but I think that's just part of Darla's personality. She is the matriarch of the family, she looks down on Angel, Spike and Dru. She allows Angel some leeway because they are lovers, but I'm not convinced she even 'likes' him in any real sense. I think she just puts up with all 3 of them, as the Master put up with her, in a 'what ya gonna do, they're family' sort of way.

    I also think that's the writers. They are generally snarky and make a lot of the banter snarky, no matter which characters they are dealing with.

    Sunday is a bit of an exemption, as she loves a good brawl. She is more of a classical mean girl bully. Harmony also sticks out. She is more of a metaphor for people who struggle to adapt to adulthood.
    I think you've spoilt your own argument with Sunday and Harmony. I think the difference between them and Darla/Dru, could the time in which they were turned. Darla is from the 16th century and Dru a Victorian, both from a time when women were meant to be more demure and could only enter the battle as spies and seductresses? While modern women, like modern female vampires, are less 'ladylike' and have less internalised misogyny?

    Their actual age might have a bearing too. After hundreds of years I guess you find safer ways of dealing with your enemy than actual fighting, in which you could so easily get staked.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Priceless View Post
    I think you've spoilt your own argument with Sunday and Harmony. I think the difference between them and Darla/Dru, could the time in which they were turned. Darla is from the 16th century and Dru a Victorian, both from a time when women were meant to be more demure and could only enter the battle as spies and seductresses? While modern women, like modern female vampires, are less 'ladylike' and have less internalised misogyny?

    Their actual age might have a bearing too. After hundreds of years I guess you find safer ways of dealing with your enemy than actual fighting, in which you could so easily get staked.
    It may not hold true about the diegtic world inside the show, but I think the argument sticks when you look out how female vampires are presented. Darla sets a precedent in the very first scene, when she lures a young man into his death. She then mostly plays the seductress until her death in S1 and comes back on AtS to continue where she left off. Drusilla is much the same. She does very little fighting, even after she is restored. It is not that they are uncapable. Far from it. They just seem to prefer playing the role of seductress. Willow is a sadistic, though not particularly violent vampire. She likes to play with her food, is overtly sexual and tries to seduce her human doppelganger to the dark side. A vampire (possibly Willow's daughter) tries to seduce Riley and Riley later visits a vampire prostitute.

    Sunday is there for just one episode and plays a very specific role. Harmony is a bit of an oddity, but she too can be seductive and tries to make Spike kill Willow for her, even though she should easily be able to do it herself.

    Luke sets the standard for most male vampires. Spike is more charismatic and he is much more androgynous in appearance and manners, but he epitomises the same combination of sexual threat and violence that Luke did. The further into the show we go, the more specific the vampires become.

    I don't think the time vampires were born in matter all that much. Modern men who turn become predatory brutes (Jesse, Holden, Xander). Modern women became seductresses (Willow, Harmony, Spike's sireling in "Sleeper").

    There may be many more vampires who are more like Sunday, but these aren't the vampires the show generally shows us.

    I am not saying that the female vampires have internalised misogyny. I meant to say that they were examples of misogynistic tropes. The way Darla turns Angel insane in S2 of AtS is a prime example of a narrative that blames women for the actions of men. It is still a very engaging story, though.

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    You don't think Spike is a seducer? I think the way he tries to bring Buffy into the darkness in season 6 is very seductive. I think all vampires have that within them, but don't always find a use for it, and prefer the 'fists and fangs' way. Even Angel, with Dru and Spike is season 2 was quite seductive, so I don't think it's just a female vampires prerogative.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Priceless View Post
    You don't think Spike is a seducer? I think the way he tries to bring Buffy into the darkness in season 6 is very seductive. I think all vampires have that within them, but don't always find a use for it, and prefer the 'fists and fangs' way. Even Angel, with Dru and Spike is season 2 was quite seductive, so I don't think it's just a female vampires prerogative.
    True. But the violence is always more prominent in him than in Dru. And his main way of flirting is showing off his prowess. He wins Dru's heart by killing slayers. He tries to win her back by beating up Angel with a rod (similar to the one he claimed made him feel all manly in "School Hard.") He is the vampire who made the sub-text text regarding sexual violence.

    I see Luke and Darla as prototypes. The subsequent vampires are watered down. Still, there is a strong continuity, I think. Angel and Spike are much more complex and dynamic than the standard Luke-ish grunts that Buffy fights on a daily basis, but the similarities are still pretty obvious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Priceless View Post
    You don't think Spike is a seducer? I think the way he tries to bring Buffy into the darkness in season 6 is very seductive. I think all vampires have that within them, but don't always find a use for it, and prefer the 'fists and fangs' way. Even Angel, with Dru and Spike is season 2 was quite seductive, so I don't think it's just a female vampires prerogative.
    He was being seductive with Sheila in Lovers Walk, too. "Those two losers, they were not good enough for you" "Who do you want me to be?"
    You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

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    Many of the vamps have a level of seduction in their stalking of prey. That's just sensible when dealing with public places and unknown quantities. You have Dracula, of course. Then there's Jesse when he's turned. The vamp that gets Willow out of the Bronze in the pilot. Whatshisface that Dawn smooches in All the Way.

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