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Thread: Screenrants Top 5 Angel Episode (And 5 Worst) Do you agree?

  1. #21
    Slayer TimeTravellingBunny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vampmogs View Post
    I don't hate "TGIQ" but I can understand why people do.

    With 3 episodes left of the series it was pretty self-indulgent to go on this bizarre detour chasing after Buffy all because, supposedly, Joss wanted to make some kind of statement about SMG and how "she's moved on and maybe we should to." Leaving aside how much I *don't* think it's ever benefited the Buffyverse when Joss has let his personal feelings about actresses effect his work, it seems like a pretty redundant message when AtS was ending in 3 episodes anyway. We're all moving on anyway. It's not like we had a choice...

    The episode itself just seems like a waste. It was an unnecessary concept, it was really poorly placed given that The Circle of the Blackthorn was a rushed concept and could have benefited from extra screen time, it really wasted the last ever appearances of Darla and Dru etc. Maybe the episode wouldn't receive so much animosity if it appeared earlier in the season but even then, I think there's no denying that the characters are blatantly OOC at times.

    It's also really kind of gross what they did with Buffy. It's utterly depressing that Buffy is reduced to being The Immortal's new arm candy and that it's all she's apparently known for. It's also pretty depressing that they make a mockery of her character by having her hook up with yet another mysterious, morally ambiguous dark guy just because he's supposedly so irresistible. I think the humour simply goes too far at times. The Italian branch of W&H looking exactly the same just seems cartoonish and lame and Angel and Spike are kind of butchered for a cheap laugh. Also, speaking as someone who actually hates that Spike still wears the coat, even I can't stand how they just give him an exact replica for the sake of a throwaway gag.

    I don't have a visceral dislike of it but I certainly don't think it's good. A lot of people defend it on the basis that it's meant to be humorous and not taken so seriously but, honestly, there's a lot of truly wonderful comedic episodes in the Buffyverse that doesn't completely sacrifice character, logic and consistency just for a joke.
    You say you don't hate it, but you've covered most of it.
    I'll just add that - not only is "it's humorous!" not a good excuse for butchering characters and logic, but, for me, the episode is not even funny. It tries so hard to be funny, through cheap, dumb humor I wouldn't expect from Buffyverse, OOC behavior, ethnic stereotypes (everything with the Italian characters is ridiculous in the worst and unfunny sort of way) and it made me laugh, just cringe.
    And the "mocking ship wars" excuse is even worse. It practically mocked itself, BtVS, all the characters and major storylines from the verse, and it affirmed every sexist stereotype that its defenders will claim it was mocking, or something. Fans didn't force Joss to make a love triangle one episode and 5 minutes before the end of BtVS - he did that by trying to pander to both shipper groups. Fans didn't force him to treat Buffy as a prize for Spike and Angel to fight over - he did that throughout season 5, and never more so than in TGIQ, making it even more offensive by treating Buffy as some Gary Stu's arm candy, in her last ever mention in televised Buffyverse.

    The entire episode is "smart" and "funny" as if it was written by a 13 year old boy. Or by the Trio. Or most likely, by the Trio when they were 13 years old.
    You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

  2. #22
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    .....And yet I still bloody loved it. But then humour is like art. It's all down to ones own personal taste. To this day I'm always amazed at how some get overly worked up over this story. Some react like Whedon had gone around and personally kicked their dog to death or something. Imo It's just bizarre.
    Last edited by Silver1; 14-07-19 at 07:35 AM.

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  4. #23
    Scooby Gang bespangled's Avatar
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    I'm another fan who loves TGIQ. I definitely agree that this should have been far earlier in the season. It would have made the most sense after Damage, when Spike was finally starting to come to grips with his soul. I enjoy the window into the Spike & Angel relationship on a more equal ground - without Angel as king of the hill. I like the way they fall into old patterns, and the same time struggle to find new patterns. Buffy was seen as the Immortal's arm candy by the locals - most likely they had no idea what a slayer was. If you missed it, the entire point was how stupid it was to see Buffy as a commodity or a prize. Angel and Spike were being pretty lame, as Andrew pointed out.

    I also truly love the other part of the episode - Illyria/Fred as the girl in question. Her ability to so completely turn into Fred was chilling. The interaction between her and Wesley was fascinating.

    Yes, the racial and ethnic slurs were ghastly, and even moreso now. No excuse for them. But I still love the episode.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Silver1 View Post
    .....And yet I still bloody loved it. But then humour is like art. It's all down to ones own personal taste. To this day I'm always amazed at how some get overly worked up over this story. Some react like Whedon had gone around and personally kicked their dog to death or something. Imo It's just bizarre.
    It's the coat cadre, IMO.
    Last edited by bespangled; 15-07-19 at 03:47 AM.
    Can we agree that the writers made everyone do and say everything with a thought to getting good ratings and being renewed. This includes everything we love as well as everything we hate.

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  6. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by bespangled View Post
    It's the coat cadre, IMO.
    That feels a little harsh. Sure it is my biggest issue because of how important a plot point the coat was in S7 and specifically for how it was used to show the change in Spike and his feelings towards his past alongside his questionable attitude towards his history fighting slayers. But that wasn't the only issue I cited, which also included what you've agreed were weaknesses, and others have spoken of the same and other objections to the episode too.

    The Illyria aspect of the episode is a definite positive I agree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stoney View Post
    That feels a little harsh. Sure it is my biggest issue because of how important a plot point the coat was in S7 and specifically for how it was used to show the change in Spike and his feelings towards his past alongside his questionable attitude towards his history fighting slayers. But that wasn't the only issue I cited, which also included what you've agreed were weaknesses, and others have spoken of the same and other objections to the episode too.

    The Illyria aspect of the episode is a definite positive I agree.
    I'm so sorry.

    I never meant for you to think that was directed at you. Silver and I were on another board where the coat was a subject some people brought up repeatedly. It was used as proof that Spike wasn't really souled.

    The huge difference is that you find Spike as having a crap attitude, but you don't say wearing the coat is proof that he doesn't really have a soul. I agree with both the crap attitude, and that he is still souled.

    I agree with everything you said, in fact. When he put the coat away he was trying to separate himself like Angel did. But he had to return to his past self as a fighter, and how he looked was part of his identity as a fighter. He was too immature as a souled vamp to really think through its origin yet, and I was actually glad it was the coat he wanted and not the trophy.
    Can we agree that the writers made everyone do and say everything with a thought to getting good ratings and being renewed. This includes everything we love as well as everything we hate.

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  9. #26
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    Excepting "Sleep Tight" and "Reunion," I disagree with pretty much the entire list. Its composer seems to have not been concerned with how much or little sense a given episode makes, both on its own and in the context of the series as a whole, whereas I favor tight continuity and yummy clue breadcrumbs leading up to the plot. "IWRY" benefits from strong performances, but suffers from the fact that, despite all his supposed intelligence and motivations, Angel has never heard about, and will never again mention, Mohra demons. "Smile Time" relies on an implausible lack of witnesses in order to make a ham-handed statement about children and adults' relative capacities for observation.

    By contrast, I think that "Expecting," in particular, is nowhere hear as bad as its reputation. Yes, it's got moments that are potentially offensive to gun owners, condom manufacturers, and all human males. But the Buffyverse is replete with offensive messages; if they all brought down the episodes that contained them, there wouldn't be a whole lot left. In "Expecting," a believable sweetness starts to shine through the post-Doyle team, and the scenes toggle effectively between comedy and drama. It's hardly a masterpiece, but neither, IMO, is it total garbage.

    I would've definitely added "Dear Boy" to the "best" list. Angelus flashbacks, even with the accent, are more fun for me than modern moping scenes; Julie Benz gives Darla that sharp, polished edge that the series needs; and Darla's 1860s hairstyle gets a 10/10. I don't usually care for film noir, detective stories, or romantic pining, but the first half of season 2 does them so well that they become riveting anyway.

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