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Thread: Does the show have a "golden era"?

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    Fury claims they planned for S6/7 to unfold as they did. However, maybe America's "Golden Age" was also questionable by the time these seasons aired? Sept 11 happened just before S6: S7 plays out against a backdrop of the Bush years and the invasion of Iraq. Perhaps it's not possible to have the same sort of hero after 9/11 as you had before because the world's a different place? The war in Vietnam led to a questioning of the myths America had told itself at home and abroad (often via Hollywood): why should BtVS be any different?

    The B/S stuff like the Balcony Anal sex scene was thrown in by Joss to make the relationship look creepy and disgusting and he was simply focused on the making fans think the right way ie to feel sympathy for Buffy and not for Spike.
    In which case, he's more naive than I thought he was. a) Without wanting to be too graphic, if that's "anal sex", it's anal sex written by someone who's never experienced anal sex. b) If it is, what's so disgusting about it? Why is sex more disgusting than violence? Why is anal sex more disgusting than vanilla sex? Why is it seen as taboo? What's the social function of taboo? c) Why is she shown as protesting but enjoying it? He's treading dangerous ground here. d) Why does the cross-talk earlier in the scene sound like some sort of Greek chorus? Why does it imply that she's consciously or unconsciously looking for fulfillment with its reference to lubrication and imagery such as "glass all the way empty. More nectar required"? There are layers and layers of potential meanings adhering to this: For instance: the dominant ideology perpetuates itself through the family: anal sex/oral sex are non-procreative. It's labour utilised to no end except pleasure (but perhaps that pleasure links to power). Is it also because it connotes homosexuality? Is it less of a comment on the practice itself than a comment on the blurring or queerying of boundaries? Is it to do with the abject? Is it seen as abnormal because it's animalistic? Why the spatial metaphor of the balcony? Would it be more acceptable outside? Buffy condones "al fresco" foreplay in All the Way? If Joss simply wanted me to think the relationship was disgusting, he went about it the wrong way.

    I don't know if I agree the dialogue really betrays too much because it's typically subverts itself.
    I agree - and I think it does this through its contradictions. Its dynamic is the dialectic.

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    All said regarding writers, producers, actors, directors, viewers, readers, etc. are what I remember, my opinions, etc.




    * I remember that Lady Gaga was called a "has-been" soon after her "Art Pop" album was released. It turns out that year she made around $35MM.

    It's always been bizarre that anyone says James Marsters has had a crappy career after Angel S5. He's certainly made millions of dollars after Angel S5. I'm sure most of the posters here would love to make thousands of dollars in one day by simply spending a few hours with one's very adoring fans. And get to do one-episode or recurring roles that one likes. And then get a regular role very near one's home so that you don't have to commute and especially move.

    Sarah Michelle Gellar now has 2.6MM followers on Instagram. She probably makes good money from Instagram.

    Sarah and James played very iconic characters.


    * Anyway, no one has said that James Marsters has had a better career than David Boreanaz. My point is that James could have had a better career if he had been as hard-working as David. David learned to direct. David was fine with the tremendous hours it takes to lead a one-hour drama or procedural. James's favorite working Season is BtVS S4 because he didn't have to work much and he got paid almost as much as Alyson Hannigan. James in Angel S5 complained about how much screen time he was getting because of how much he was having to work.


    * This is probably my last post in this thread. Most on this thread seem to want to equate "golden era" with "which block of Seasons I liked the most". The height of the series's influence and power is BtVS S6 and BtVS S7 for all the reasons I state in prior posts.



    EDIT:


    * I'd even say BtVS S5-S7 is more of the "golden era" than BtVS S2-S3. BtVS S5 got the best male demographics of the series and its rated and the Buffy/Spike tease got the series a ton more money for BtVS S6-S7. Sarah Michelle Gellar got her Golden Globe nomination for "The Body" (B 5.16). The Willow/Tara kiss is an important part of pop culture. "Google" is first used as a verb in pop culture in "Help" (B 7.04).
    Last edited by MikeB; 15-06-19 at 05:37 PM. Reason: added stuff

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    Quote Originally Posted by TriBel View Post
    Fury claims they planned for S6/7 to unfold as they did. However, maybe America's "Golden Age" was also questionable by the time these seasons aired? Sept 11 happened just before S6: S7 plays out against a backdrop of the Bush years and the invasion of Iraq. Perhaps it's not possible to have the same sort of hero after 9/11 as you had before because the world's a different place? The war in Vietnam led to a questioning of the myths America had told itself at home and abroad (often via Hollywood): why should BtVS be any different?
    I really don't buy they had it planned and if they did they threw the plan out at some point. Of course that also depends on what is meant by plan. They probably were aware a couple episodes ahead, but we know from leaks and the writers themselves that there was a lot of moving around as there was in every season. Spike was meant to have a different trigger, Wood was supposed to die, Spuffy was meant to be much shorter, yada, yada, yada.
    Last edited by HardlyThere; 15-06-19 at 08:19 PM.

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    I'd say the Golden Years of Buffy were seasons 2-3, because that's what put them on the map. And the high school years are remembered fondly . But I don't think the series would be as fondly remembered without seasons 4 and 5 because 4 has Hush and season 5 is considered my many as the best season and it also has the Body and the Gift. And I don't know if we'd be talking as much about Buffy without season 6's OMWF .

    I'd also like to say that mainstream audiences don't know DB because of Buffy or Angel. They were still cult shows. GA knows DB because of Bones, and don't even know he was Angel.

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    Season 2-3 was the peak in terms of success, and Season 5 was the peak in terms of quality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KingofCretins View Post
    Season 2-3 was the peak in terms of success, and Season 5 was the peak in terms of quality.
    For Joss Whedon his peak would be when he had 3 shows on the 3 Network's. So S6/S4/S1 for Buffy/Angel and Firefly

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    Quote Originally Posted by BtVS fan View Post
    For Joss Whedon his peak would be when he had 3 shows on the 3 Network's. So S6/S4/S1 for Buffy/Angel and Firefly
    Mmm I'd actually probably say that his peak was either Fall 1999 (BtVS Season 4 & the premier of AtS) or "The Avengers." In 1999 he was still riding the wave of Season 3's critical and commercial success and now had a shiny new spinoff to boast about as proof of BtVS' popularity. It was just before Season 4 started and the fandom started to fracture with complaints about Riley, The Initiative, Willow being gay etc. And of course, "The Avengers" was one of the biggest movies of all time and was a critical darling. It was pre-"AoU" and the internet turning on him. I think he also had a really strong year with BtVS Season 5/AtS Season 2 as both seasons were well-received and BtVS hit the 100th episode milestone. However, according to Joss, he was so angry about the drama regarding The WB and BtVS' renewal that he couldn't be happy about the 100th celebrations and had to shut down the set whilst filming "The Gift" so he may personally feel differently. Personally, I've always felt that the unpleasantness during that time has permanently stained "The Gift" for Joss as he never mentions it and never considered it one of his best episodes despite it being so pivotal and so popular.

    Having 3 shows airing at the same time sounds successful on paper but it wasn't smooth sailing for him in a lot of ways. "OMWF" aside, Season 6 was polarising with both fans and critics alike and it didn't help that SMG's unhappiness with the storyline was leaked to the press. Likewise, "Firefly" was also swiftly cancelled which he took particularly hard both professionally and personally. And this trend continued into the following year with AtS Season 4 in particular being heavily criticised by fans and critics, the unfortunate Charisma drama, tension with SMG, Season 7's decline in the ratings, and then BtVS ending and AtS barely escaping cancellation by a hair's breadth. He had a lot going on at that time but it was really messy for him in a lot of ways and he lost two shows in pretty quick succession (even if BtVS was a decision he made). Ironically, having only 1 show to focus on again for AtS Season 5 dramatically helped with the quality, IMO, but then that was unfortunately cancelled too.

    I was never fussed by "The Avengers" myself but I do think it was probably his most commercially successful time and when Joss was riding a wave of almost universal popularity the likes he hadn't seen since the early BtVS days. He's been on a steady downward trajectory ever since "Age of Ultron" pissed people off. He's going to have an uphill battle winning people over again with "The Nevers" so it'd want to be very good.

    It feels like a lifetime ago that the internet was full of "Joss is my God" folks. Which is fine as that was incredibly annoying but now it's rare to hear a positive opinion about him from anyone.
    Last edited by vampmogs; 16-06-19 at 02:14 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vampmogs View Post
    Mmm I'd actually probably say that his peak was either Fall 1999 (BtVS Season 4 & the premier of AtS) or "The Avengers." In 1999 he was still riding the wave of Season 3's critical and commercial success and now had a shiny new spinoff to boast about as proof of BtVS' popularity. It was just before Season 4 started and the fandom started to fracture with complaints about Riley, The Initiative, Willow being gay etc. And of course, "The Avengers" was one of the biggest movies of all time and was a critical darling. It was pre-"AoU" and the internet turning on him. I think he also had a really strong year with BtVS Season 5/AtS Season 2 as both seasons were well-received and BtVS hit the 100th episode milestone. However, according to Joss, he was so angry about the drama regarding The WB and BtVS' renewal that he couldn't be happy about the 100th celebrations and had to shut down the set whilst filming "The Gift" so he may personally feel differently. Personally, I've always felt that the unpleasantness during that time has permanently stained "The Gift" for Joss as he never mentions it and never considered it one of his best episodes despite it being so pivotal and so popular.

    Having 3 shows airing at the same time sounds successful on paper but it wasn't smooth sailing for him in a lot of ways. "OMWF" aside, Season 6 was polarising with both fans and critics alike and it didn't help that SMG's unhappiness with the storyline was leaked to the press. Likewise, "Firefly" was also swiftly cancelled which he took particularly hard both professionally and personally. And this trend continued into the following year with AtS Season 4 in particular being heavily criticised by fans and critics, the unfortunate Charisma drama, tension with SMG, Season 7's decline in the ratings, and then BtVS ending and AtS barely escaping cancellation by a hair's breadth. He had a lot going on at that time but it was really messy for him in a lot of ways and he lost two shows in pretty quick succession (even if BtVS was a decision he made). Ironically, having only 1 show to focus on again for AtS Season 5 dramatically helped with the quality, IMO, but then that was unfortunately cancelled too.

    I was never fussed by "The Avengers" myself but I do think it was probably his most commercially successful time and when Joss was riding a wave of almost universal popularity the likes he hadn't seen since the early BtVS days. He's been on a steady downward trajectory ever since "Age of Ultron" pissed people off. He's going to have an uphill battle winning people over again with "The Nevers" so it'd want to be very good.

    It feels like a lifetime ago that the internet was full of "Joss is my God" folks. Which is fine as that was incredibly annoying but now it's rare to hear a positive opinion about him from anyone.
    SMG and Joss had fallen out before the S6 storyline . I remember at the time during S5 SMG declaring that she felt the show should stay on the WB and she'd leave if they left. She was reminded that she was under contract and had no say in the matter. Then she went kind quiet

    If David Fury is right, it was Joss who inadvertently got Angel cancelled by pushing for its renewal to soon.

    Yes Avengers made lot of money but like most Marvel movies (and I appreciate this is just personal preference) they are kind of bland and McDonald's like. Avengers was no different and for some reason the Hulk by the end could control his power and who he attacked because well reasons...

    I think the Joss is God nonsense is over due to some of the stuff that's come out ie cheating on his wife and the Gas lighting letter that was released Well that and his Wonder Woman script which was pretty awful. I think a lot of people were left with the impression this so called Feminist was all just a smokescreen, while in reality, he was like any other Hollywood producer/director
    I also think it's because he's not changed much as a writer either. Quips and a good looking girl beating up a guy may have seemed fresh and new in the 90's really isnt in 2019.

    One criticism of Joss even at the time was he could raise an issue but wouldn't or couldn't examine the implications of said issue. I guess we will see with the Nevers whether he has moved on and expanded as a writer or whether he's just the same old Joss with the quips ?
    Last edited by BtVS fan; 16-06-19 at 02:31 PM.

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    I certainly hope he's evolved past the quips. They felt so effortless in BtVS and the actors had a knack for delivering his lines, however, in his latest work they've become simply unbearable. "AoU" was nothing but quip after quip -- often taking the air out of any dramatic or emotional scene and making the whole thing feel like a big joke. The puns and the quips were relentless to the point it felt like Joss was parodying himself.

    I hope he's still able to mix comedy with serious drama but I really hope he dials it back a notch for "The Nevers." BtVS still had really powerful and poignant scenes without Whedon feeling the compulsion to repeatedly undermine them. He needs to find that balance again and also find a new voice. All of the characters in "AoU" just sounded like Joss rather than themselves.
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    All said regarding writers, producers, actors, directors, viewers, readers, etc. are what I remember, my opinions, etc.




    * This seems another interesting thread in which various things are discussed. I'll make an effort to go through all of it and respond in this thread or make new threads if I feel that is warranted.

    But there are some seriously silly things said in this thread.

    The height of the series's success was BtVS S2 and BtVS S3? The DVDs weren't even out. All the major licensing stuff--including the video games--came later. UPN paid $102MM to air BtVS S6 and BtVS S7. That was a HUGE premium over what The WB was paying.

    BtVS S5 had the best male demographics 18-34. BtVS S6 had the overall best audience demographics.

    Second is saying the height of Joss Whedon's success was in 1999 A.D. is beyond laughable. The Avengers made the Marvel movies a-billion-dollars-each-movie-franchise. Joss Whedon quit after The Avengers: Age of Ultron . That wasn't a great career move given he then decided to play 'patch-up' on The Justice League . The year The Avengers came out was a very bad year for 'Hollywood' movies and The Avengers pretty much made all the profits of the US movie industry that year. That's why Joss was there at the Academy Awards.


    Anyway, I'm glad this Board remains interesting and compelling.
    Last edited by MikeB; 16-06-19 at 07:07 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeB View Post

    But there are some seriously silly things said in this thread.
    I'm glad that you felt the need to try and trump them.

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    vampmogs:
    At the end of the day BtVS was a teen show. And as with all teen shows, they're always at their most popular when the characters are actually teenagers and in high school.
    You are definitely right that for those people, who regard BtVS as a teen show the High School years are the golden years. Since season 1 for all it's nostalgia does not have written the word quality in flashing letters on it's DVD cover, it's natural to come to the conclusion that season 2 and season 3 really are the only ones who can be called the golden ear.

    I've never thought of BtVS as a teen show and never watched it for this reputation. I don't know if it would have been different, had I watched it when it first aired and/or watched it in chronological order, when I first came across it. When I started to watch it for the first time, I had already read about the show online and knew about some of the major plot twists or character deaths. I am pretty sure I would never have been interested in a teen show. I tend to think of BtVS as something we call Entwicklungsroman in German (for books). I am not sure how to translate this in English but it could either be a coming-of-age-novel or a development-novel.

    To me it's obvious that development or growth is far from being completed with graduation day. Therefore I can't think of season 2 or 3 as the golden seasons but only as part of something more than a High School show. But I can see your point and I am sure that there are many factors that might influence how someone regards the show and some of the factors might be how old they were when they first watched, if they watched when the show first aired and so on.

    vampmogs:
    And even then there's still no consensus on what years are "the best" as you'd get two completely results depending on where you ask (Buffyboards vs Buffyforums, for example).
    I can't restrain myself from saying that makes it easier to get a vote in favor of the early season if you make a habit out of banning people who like the later seasons

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    Quote Originally Posted by flow View Post

    vampmogs: I can't restrain myself from saying that makes it easier to get a vote in favor of the early season if you make a habit out of banning people who like the later seasons

    flow
    Hear! Hear! I can't believe you went there but as one of the banned for no reason I say thank you


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    Quote Originally Posted by flow View Post
    vampmogs:

    You are definitely right that for those people, who regard BtVS as a teen show the High School years are the golden years. Since season 1 for all it's nostalgia does not have written the word quality in flashing letters on it's DVD cover, it's natural to come to the conclusion that season 2 and season 3 really are the only ones who can be called the golden ear.

    I've never thought of BtVS as a teen show and never watched it for this reputation. I don't know if it would have been different, had I watched it when it first aired and/or watched it in chronological order, when I first came across it. When I started to watch it for the first time, I had already read about the show online and knew about some of the major plot twists or character deaths. I am pretty sure I would never have been interested in a teen show. I tend to think of BtVS as something we call Entwicklungsroman in German (for books). I am not sure how to translate this in English but it could either be a coming-of-age-novel or a development-novel.

    To me it's obvious that development or growth is far from being completed with graduation day. Therefore I can't think of season 2 or 3 as the golden seasons but only as part of something more than a High School show. But I can see your point and I am sure that there are many factors that might influence how someone regards the show and some of the factors might be how old they were when they first watched, if they watched when the show first aired and so on.

    vampmogs: I can't restrain myself from saying that makes it easier to get a vote in favor of the early season if you make a habit out of banning people who like the later seasons

    flow
    When I talk about it being a teen show I'm referring to how it was marketed. BtVS was marketed at teenagers on The WB which was a channel specifically aimed at the teen demographic. It was heavily promoted in teen magazines and it's merchandise was heavily aimed at teens (for instance, it's novels were classified as 'young adult' fiction etc). The series evidently appealed to viewers beyond just teenagers but young adults made up the vast majority of the viewership and the series was written with them in mind (hence not only the high school setting but the writers and actors talking about Buffy being a role model for "young girls and boys").

    In that respect, BtVS was as much of a teen show as "Beverly Hills 90210" or "The OC." Young adults were it's target demo. It's part of why The WB loved it so much in the beginning because the series brought a lot of young viewers to the channel and helped the channel define itself as the "face of a generation." They really held the teen market along with other shows like "Felicity", "Charmed", and "Dawson's Creek." The fact that it moved beyond high school didn't really change that (the same is true of "Dawson's Creek", "The OC" and "Beverly Hills 90210") but shows that start of in high school overwhelmingly tend to be defined by those years by the media regardless of how long they stayed there.

    As for the Buffyboards drama, I tend to stay out of it myself. I've personally experienced it from both sides *shrugs*
    Last edited by vampmogs; 17-06-19 at 02:21 PM.
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    As for the Buffyboards drama, I tend to stay out of it myself. I've personally experienced it from both sides *shrugs*
    Where as I and a few others on this forum I know have had hideous trouble with very biased mods on this bloody dreadful board. I wish I could have "kept out of it" But the mods just wouldn't let you and just kept setting you up for another 'verbal 'mugging'.

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    This is probably my last post in this thread. Most on this thread seem to want to equate "golden era" with "which block of Seasons I liked the most". The height of the series's influence and power is BtVS S6 and BtVS S7 for all the reasons I state in prior posts.
    Mike - I'd love to say that because I much prefer 5 through to 7 but I'm really not sure it's how it's perceived. If you google it, most review websites seem to favour the earlier seasons as "Classic Buffy". As noted, there's been a poll on a different board and 2/3 of the votes went to the earlier seasons. Having said that, there was also a shipping tournament that was won for the first time by B/S. Given the later seasons are seen as B/S, I'm not sure how people reconcile the two.

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    As noted, there's been a poll on a different board and 2/3 of the votes went to the earlier seasons. Having said that, there was also a shipping tournament that was won for the first time by B/S. Given the later seasons are seen as B/S, I'm not sure how people reconcile the two.

    I don't see the difficulty. There's more to a show than just the ships. People can like Spuffy but not care for the writing and/or non-Spuffy character arcs of the later seasons.

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    Or people can like Spuffy and like the early seasons.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vampmogs View Post
    As for the Buffyboards drama, I tend to stay out of it myself. I've personally experienced it from both sides *shrugs*
    Whereas I left when another member said that James Marsters adopted his niece because he's a child molester and he wanted a little girl to molest. She was not chastised. The mods had no problem with the post. I objected strongly and was given a warning. That place can be far more toxic than any board I have ever been on.
    Can we agree that the writers made everyone do and say everything with a thought to getting good ratings and being renewed. This includes everything we love as well as everything we hate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bespangled View Post
    Whereas I left when another member said that James Marsters adopted his niece because he's a child molester and he wanted a little girl to molest. She was not chastised. The mods had no problem with the post. I objected strongly and was given a warning. That place can be far more toxic than any board I have ever been on.
    There are people on that board who constantly suggest JM is a rapist/child molester etc. and who still remain on that board. There are people who argued against this person, and they get banned.

    There were also 'safe spaces' for ship fans to discuss their ship, but because non ship fans complained that they couldn't post on that section, the sections were opened up, with the proviso that nothing negative could be posted . . . well you can imagine how that went That's when I left.
    Last edited by Priceless; 18-06-19 at 09:36 AM.

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