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Thread: Failing Faith?

  1. #21
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    I think bespangled was giving those examples to illustrate times when we didn't see the same actions and accepted different ones for the same events because of the context of what was happening in the story, rather than blaming Buffy for Faith's choices or saying they expected her to turn herself in when they don't have to. I think it was raised as differing examples against suggesting Faith should have sorted herself a better flat because others fended for themselves. So, Buffy and Xander were motivated to get a job and fitted to societal expectations better when they were struggling financially but Faith didn't look to work to get herself out of that dive of a motel. That with her isolation and background she could have done with some support and guidance at that point. So I think the general point was supporting that Giles should have been offering something because he had an official position of responsibility in regards to Faith (really as representative of the council I think). But I have a mild hangover this morning so I may be getting into a mind muddle.

    In fact I think with the police investigating the deputy mayor's death and with Faith's response in Consequences...
    Buffy: I *am* trying to protect you. Look, if-if we don't do the right thing, it's only gonna make things worse for you.
    Faith: Worse than jail for the rest of my young life? No way!
    ...they did give a general impression that facing the authorities was what the right thing to do would be in Faith's circumstances. That doesn't mean that they wouldn't have helped her in a different way if she'd been willing to talk of course, but it did come across like facing the situation would be official. In truth the difference on this aspect is writing needs driven and somewhat inconsistent I think. Buffy was going to turn herself in for Katrina's death in S6 too.

    It is generally interesting to consider how Faith responded to having stabbed the deputy mayor because you're right there were multiple points when she could have had support and help on that but her distrust isolated her. Even if she had been better integrated I would question whether there was enough time for her to have established strong enough connections for it to have broken down her defensiveness and had her willing to be vulnerable around others. That event may well have pulled down everything even if things had been different before anyway.
    Last edited by Stoney; 10-05-19 at 10:44 AM.

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by bespangled View Post
    Faith is not a responsible middle class suburban kid. It looks like the only way you could approve of her is if she became one, and since she doesn't then I doubt we'll agree. However Giles was never Xander's watcher - he had no responsibility to look after Xander.
    Only middle class kids have self reliance and attempt to better themselves? Giles didn't have a responsibility to do anything but train her. As Stoney mentioned, we can go all day about the Council, but it ain't on Giles.

    Buffy killed a few humans during the show. How come she never turned herself into the police and went to prison? She gutted Faith, trying to murder her and then left her for dead. How come she didn't turn herself in when she found Faith in an irreversible coma? How come Giles never turned himself in for killing Ben? Or Willow, for flaying Warren? The show maintains very different standards for them and for Faith. Again context.
    Oh, the irony of you talking about context. Faith killed 2 innocent human beings that we know of. Buffy killed people actively trying to kill them like Gwen Post. When Buffy (thought) she killed two innocent humans, she was right there in the police station in Ted and Dead Things.

    You're also ignoring that no one demanded Faith go to jail after Finch. Or even the volcanologist, who people forget. It wasn't until she spit on the gang (again) and the only option was jail or death that she settled for 3 hots and a cot.

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    Giles didn't have a responsibility to do anything but train her.
    That's not true. Traditionally, the slayers lived with and were provided for by their watchers. Nikki lived with Crowley, Kendra lived with Sam Zabuto, Faith lived with her watcher as well in Boston. Buffy's an exception, she lives with her mother, but that doesn't absolve Giles of his duty towards Faith.

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    I agree with HardlyThere that for the most part, nobody demanded Faith that she went to jail as a punishment for her crimes. They demanded jail because she was a repeatedly dangerous and having her locked up was the only other option besides inevitable death.

    Angel wasn't in favour of jail at all ("Do you think that'll help?") and nobody so much as uttered a breath about believing she should return to jail should to finish serving her time if they survived Angelus or The First in BtVS Season 7/AtS Season 4. It was a self-imposed punishment that pretty much everyone agreed to because it benefited them but other than Buffy demanding jail in "Sanctuary" (after offering Faith repeated opportunities for things to go differently) and Giles briefly suggesting The Initiative's containment facilities (which Xander shot down on the account of them being evil) it never came up. Had Faith turned her back on The Mayor in Season 3 I am entirely confident that the Scoobies wouldn't have demanded Faith go to jail. In fact, when Willow suggested that Faith may belong behind bars in "Consequences" Buffy pleads that she didn't because she felt she was reaching her.

    I agree with Stoney that Buffy did give the impression early into "Consequences" that she felt jail may have been an inevitable fate for Faith if they fessed up to what had happened. However, that was before she talked to Giles and Giles put what had happened into perspective with his spiel about how Slayers have accidentally harmed civilians before. And in all fairness to Buffy, as HardlyThere points out, Buffy was willing to accept the same fate for herself in "Ted" and even later in "Dead Things." Even Willow, who did suggest that maybe Faith belonged behind bars after her attack on Xander, assumed that Giles took her to England after Season 6 to "lock her away in some mystical dungeon for all eternity with the torture" and it was a fate she was prepared to willingly succumb to because of what she had done. So I'd argue that neither are really hypocritical at all.

    Had Faith said to Angel in "Sanctuary" that she wanted to earn her redemption through fighting by Angel's side and helping the helpless, let's be honest, that's what would've happened. Once Buffy calmed down and realised that Faith was actually serious about her atonement she wouldn't have hauled Faith's ass off to jail. That wouldn't have even made sense. Buffy knows that jail cannot contain a Slayer anyway as she said so herself in "This Years Girl."

    As for the overall discussion of the thread, I don't feel that the responsibility was on high school kids to house and look after Faith. For one thing, they lived in their parent's houses, and that's not their call to make. I think we can safely rule out either Xander or Willow's parents taking her in given their pretty frosty relationships with their parents and whilst Joyce may have taken her in she may have simply not had the monetary means to do so.

    I do think it's fair to question Giles and whether or not he failed as Faith's Watcher. Although, that said, I do find it mildly amusing how conveniently we decide when Giles should be upholding his authoritarian and caretaker role as "The Watcher" and when Giles and his role are nothing but by oppressive, patriarchal symbols of the Council who should stay out of Slayer's lives. How do we define what responsibility Giles has over Faith as her self-appointed (or Council-appointed, anyway) Watcher and where does that responsibility end? Who decides these parameters? It's all fairly ambiguous and wishy washy.

    I'm also not sure why Wesley escaped this blame, either. People rightly or wrongly criticise Giles for his failure to be a good Watcher to Faith whilst in his temporary position as her Watcher ("I'm to stay on as Faith's Watcher until the new Watcher arrives") but nobody blames Wesley for not offering to house Faith when he takes over the position in "Bad Girls"?

    Perhaps my unpopular opinion is that Faith put on a pretty good game face and a lot of the time the purpose of that game face is so that those around you don't realise how lonely you may be, or how much you may be struggling, or whether or not you could do with more support. And perhaps pretty expectedly, the unfortunate consequence of wearing that game face is that those around you may actually start to believe it. I can think of only one time - ever - that Faith asked for help and that was in "Sanctuary" ("Help me") and Angel readily obliged. I can think of one time where Faith decided to show vulnerability ("Amends") and Buffy welcomed her in with open arms. I really can't fault a bunch of young adults for believing that Faith really did love her adult-free life, her partying, her flights of fancy, and her fondness for fighting. She put on a pretty big show of looking down on Buffy's "geek pals" as if they were beneath her and not worth her time and expressed this repeatedly. If people want to blame the Scoobies for not being insightful enough or for being too naive to see that a lot of it was an act I think that equally, if not more so, Faith deserves a lot of the blame herself for continuously putting on that facade.

    Faith did express on multiple occasions that she'd had a hard childhood and the Scoobies were aware of this ("I know you had a hard life. I know you had a lot of tough breaks...") but Faith, as far as I can recall, really only ever expressed this when she was using it as an excuse to behave badly or when she was trying to manipulate people (she's guilty of both in "Enemies"). Whilst it may not be as easy as saying Faith she just lay bare all her vulnerabilities as if it were that simple, Faith is responsible for those around her becoming jaded about her rough upbringing. When it's consistently used as a way of dismissing and putting down others because they haven't been through what you've been through or as a way of justifying your actions ("But mum was too busy enjoying the drinking and passing out parts of life to ever really give me what I wanted. Until now...") it's understandable people's capacity for sympathy would wane.

    I also agree with others such as Sosa Lola that Xander's awful childhood is repeatedly minimised and dismissed not only by fans but by the other characters as well. We gleamed a lot about Xander's childhood from Xander's jokes which could easily be interpreted as his cry for help. Like Faith, Xander is also sadly responsible for how others may perceive his home life if his mask as Class Clown is worn a little too well, a little too often, but you could also partially criticise the Scoobies for not seeing though the facade as well. Xander's childhood seemed really rough. His parents were alcoholics, his relatives were alcoholics, and there's plenty of clues to suggest that Xander may have both witnessed his father being physically abusive to his mother (we heard them physically fighting in "The Replacement") and to him as well. I'm not sure why we'd trivialise that and I'm not sure why it doesn't compare to Faith?
    Last edited by vampmogs; 10-05-19 at 11:45 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by a thing of evil View Post
    That's not true. Traditionally, the slayers lived with and were provided for by their watchers. Nikki lived with Crowley, Kendra lived with Sam Zabuto, Faith lived with her watcher as well in Boston. Buffy's an exception, she lives with her mother, but that doesn't absolve Giles of his duty towards Faith.
    If that was his duty, that's what he would have done. This guy stuck a needle in the arm of a girl for weeks at the Council's order.
    Last edited by HardlyThere; 10-05-19 at 08:59 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HardlyThere View Post
    If that was his duty, that's what he would have done. This guy stuck a needle in the arm of a girl for months at the Council's order.
    Yeah I think it's really ambiguous. Other than training the Slayer and preparing her, the role of a Watcher is pretty ill-defined. I think a thing of evil is right and it's safe to say that Kendra lived with her Watcher but I'm not entirely sure that Nikki lived with Crowley? In "Lies My Parents Told Me" she tells young Robin "how bout' I leave you over at Crowley's house" which, to me, sounds as if they don't live with Crowley at all.

    I really doubt the Council specifies that it's the duty of a Watcher to provide comfort, food and shelter to their Slayer. I think the Council most likely encourages that the Watcher has strict control over their Slayer and that living together just makes that naturally easier, but I doubt the Slayer's interests are at heart here.

    It doesn't come up with Giles, Gwendolyn or Wesley. Obviously Gwendolyn had no real interest in being Faith's Watcher but she didn't command Faith to come stay with her to keep up the facade or make any empty promises about taking Faith in once she'd settled into Sunnydale. And Wesley was by the book but he also never mentioned this or questioned why Faith lived at the motel. It's possible that all 3 of them were just negligent here (Gwendolyn for obvious reasons) but they were all consistent in other ways when it came to the Watcher/Slayer dynamic so it's strange it wouldn't come up.

    I think it's possible that Giles was just failing as a Watcher. He does have double-standards when it comes to Buffy and Faith and he shows a vested interest in keeping Buffy safe and pushing her to train harder despite her not wanting to do so out of concern ("Reptile Boy") as opposed to Faith whom he casually accepts isn't interested in training ("Helpless"). However, as I said in my other post, I find it a little amusing how inconsistent we are with demanding that Giles fulfil his duties as Watcher one minute and then criticising the Watchers for being stuff, patriarchal assh*les who have no right to be telling Slayers what to do. Which is it? Should Giles be upholding his responsibilities as a Watcher or do we not care what a Watcher is 'responsible' for because they just made up the rules anyway and the system they created to control Slayers, is unjust and misogynistic? We either buy into their role and the position they claim to hold... or we don't. And if we do buy into that role and Giles did have a responsibility as part of that role to shelter Faith then, sure, he failed, but if we don't, then Giles doesn't have any more responsibility to shelter Faith than he did Xander in Season 4.
    Last edited by vampmogs; 10-05-19 at 12:08 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vampmogs View Post
    I think it's possible that Giles was just failing as a Watcher. He does have double-standards when it comes to Buffy and Faith and he shows a vested interest in keeping Buffy safe and pushing her to train harder despite her not wanting to do so out of concern ("Reptile Boy") as opposed to Faith whom he casually accepts isn't interested in training ("Helpless"). However, as I said in my other post, I find it a little amusing how inconsistent we are with demanding that Giles fulfil his duties as Watcher one minute and then criticising the Watchers for being stuff, patriarchal assh*les who have no right to be telling Slayers what to do. Which is it? Should Giles be upholding his responsibilities as a Watcher or do we not care what a Watcher is 'responsible' for because they just made up the rules anyway and the system they created to control Slayers, is unjust and misogynistic? We either buy into their role and the position they claim to hold... or we don't. And if we do buy into that role and Giles did have a responsibility as part of that role to shelter Faith then, sure, he failed, but if we don't, then Giles doesn't have any more responsibility to shelter Faith than he did Xander in Season 4.
    I think the difference is the responsibility of the Council and Giles as their representative is getting leaned on, labelled as responsibility, when it is really the attitude towards the slayers as their tools to wield and not having needs/rights that's the underlying issue. That the slayer isn't given a salary or financial assistance but the role is expected to be the priority, obviously even over their own life, is the problem. In this sense I'm comfortable with complaining about the patriarchal attitudes of the Council as well as complaining about the lack of involvement in this sense. If Giles is supported/paid for his involvement then so should a slayer be and that should be a minimum level of assistance that Faith should have received. This doesn't have to be supportive of their interference and control but in considering the commitment to the overall fight and a wish to support the slayer on the front line, as helping her helps the cause. As Buffy tells them in Checkpoint, without the slayer they don't have purpose. Respect for that could come with basic assistance for earnings which then allows the slayer to focus on their role.

    Having said all this, I've no idea how Faith managed to fund the dive she was in, that could have been the council's idea of minimum requirement. But if it was then I think it is inadequate and I don't recall ever getting the impression the council ever provided financial assistance to slayers.
    Last edited by Stoney; 10-05-19 at 01:37 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vampmogs View Post
    Yeah I think it's really ambiguous. Other than training the Slayer and preparing her, the role of a Watcher is pretty ill-defined. I think a thing of evil is right and it's safe to say that Kendra lived with her Watcher but I'm not entirely sure that Nikki lived with Crowley? In "Lies My Parents Told Me" she tells young Robin "how bout' I leave you over at Crowley's house" which, to me, sounds as if they don't live with Crowley at all.

    I really doubt the Council specifies that it's the duty of a Watcher to provide comfort, food and shelter to their Slayer. I think the Council most likely encourages that the Watcher has strict control over their Slayer and that living together just makes that naturally easier, but I doubt the Slayer's interests are at heart here.

    It doesn't come up with Giles, Gwendolyn or Wesley. Obviously Gwendolyn had no real interest in being Faith's Watcher but she didn't command Faith to come stay with her to keep up the facade or make any empty promises about taking Faith in once she'd settled into Sunnydale. And Wesley was by the book but he also never mentioned this or questioned why Faith lived at the motel. It's possible that all 3 of them were just negligent here (Gwendolyn for obvious reasons) but they were all consistent in other ways when it came to the Watcher/Slayer dynamic so it's strange it wouldn't come up.

    I think it's possible that Giles was just failing as a Watcher. He does have double-standards when it comes to Buffy and Faith and he shows a vested interest in keeping Buffy safe and pushing her to train harder despite her not wanting to do so out of concern ("Reptile Boy") as opposed to Faith whom he casually accepts isn't interested in training ("Helpless"). However, as I said in my other post, I find it a little amusing how inconsistent we are with demanding that Giles fulfil his duties as Watcher one minute and then criticising the Watchers for being stuff, patriarchal assh*les who have no right to be telling Slayers what to do. Which is it? Should Giles be upholding his responsibilities as a Watcher or do we not care what a Watcher is 'responsible' for because they just made up the rules anyway and the system they created to control Slayers, is unjust and misogynistic? We either buy into their role and the position they claim to hold... or we don't. And if we do buy into that role and Giles did have a responsibility as part of that role to shelter Faith then, sure, he failed, but if we don't, then Giles doesn't have any more responsibility to shelter Faith than he did Xander in Season 4.
    I don't think Post makes that offer. She goes to Faith's motel room and commends her on the spartan minimalism. Of course, she's just playing her; I don't know if that indicates anything. Kendra lived with her Watcher from when she was a child taken from her parents.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stoney View Post

    Having said all this, I've no idea how Faith managed to fund the dive she was in, that could have been the council's idea of minimum requirement. But if it was then I think it is inadequate and I don't recall ever getting the impression the council ever provided financial assistance to slayers.
    She doesn't. There is a scene where the manager wants his money and a scene with her ducking him.

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    The question we're discussing is not did anyone have a duty or a responsibility. It is would anything have changed if Faith was treated differently.


    Only middle class kids have self reliance and attempt to better themselves?
    Wow! Okay, local schools here in AZ are crap because we don't fund them. My granddaughter went to a local high school for one year. The kids controlled the place. They talked during class, the threw things to each ot5her, they talked back to the teacher. The classes are tiny because parents who care take their kids to charter schools. Her math teacher was an marine and in the national guard, and even he couldn't keep order. These are the kids from homes where no one cares what grades they get because the parents are addicted and domestic violence is rampant. They're good kids by and large though one of her friends got caught up in a drug deal gone sour and was arrested as an accessory to murder. It seems to me that you are blaming all of these kids for not turning out like Willow or Buffy. Kids need structure and love. They don't need to hide out from abuse, try to fight back to defend their mother and get arrested for assault (another friend). This is where Faith came from, and it isn't her fault that she was never taught any sort of morality beyond survive the best you can. Believe it or not children are not born with a moral compass. Just because a few people do make it out doesn't mean you get to dismiss all the others as defective before they become adults. Where does the cycle stop - it stops with taking care of the children.

    We sent her to live with her father in Vancouver where she is getting the suburban experience of life. The kids there have things beyond her dreams, and the school she goes to is excellent. She finds most of kids pretty shallow because they have no appreciation of what they have. Here's the difference. She has had a caring family - her own village. Her friends didn't. She has a set of values because of that. We were willing to permanently lose her to give her a chance. She has a large caring family there as well, and they have high expectations.

    Faith didn't have a village, she didn't even have parents as we understand them. Since we know Faith was sexually abused by adult me, it's clear she developed a pattern of using men to survive and thrive. We used to call these kids underage prostitutes. Now we call them abuse victims because grown men who take sexual advantage of underage girls are abusers. So she found the mayor - a man who took care of her, and he didn't even want to have sex in return. The Mayor cherished her for the first time in her life. She didn't care what was right or wrong.

    I'm not excusing her, I am trying to explain her as a character. My life has been full of throwaway kids.


    I agree with HardlyThere that for the most part, nobody demanded Faith that she went to jail as a punishment for her crimes. They demanded jail because she was a repeatedly dangerous and having her locked up was the only other option besides inevitable death.
    Sorry, I was unclear here. I meant Jail in ATS, Faith turned herself in, and stayed in even though she could leave any time. My point was that every single person in the B-verse has done wrong but we have context for them so we excuse it when they accept the consequences. This is what she did. It took her a while to realize she could no longer exist with rage as her main motivator. Willow who also committed a rage murder is given a summer vacation with a coven, and is accepted back.

    Had Faith said to Angel in "Sanctuary" that she wanted to earn her redemption through fighting by Angel's side and helping the helpless, let's be honest, that's what would've happened. Once Buffy calmed down and realised that Faith was actually serious about her atonement she wouldn't have hauled Faith's ass off to jail. That wouldn't have even made sense. Buffy knows that jail cannot contain a Slayer anyway as she said so herself in "This Years Girl."
    Nah, Buffy was demanding that Faith be punished as soon as she arrived. She was there for vengeance. In fact jail wasn't enough for her when it was first brought up. She settled for it when Faith turned herself in to save Angel.

    As for the overall discussion of the thread, I don't feel that the responsibility was on high school kids to house and look after Faith. For one thing, they lived in their parent's houses, and that's not their call to make. I think we can safely rule out either Xander or Willow's parents taking her in given their pretty frosty relationships with their parents and whilst Joyce may have taken her in she may have simply not had the monetary means to do so.
    We live pretty lean. When I was a teacher I made under 20k a year because I worked in a charter Montessori school. But when my daughter's friend was on the street we took her in. Her mother was a psychotic crack whore (her words) and her father raped her when she was 9. She lived with us for seven years because we as a family voted to take her in. and we learned to look past the facade and love her. It meant sharing a bed with my daughter and another stone in the soup. She literally wore a mask of make-up, and had huge trust issues. She and my daughter share an apt now. I am not talking about duty. I am talking about not turning your back and closing your eyes when you have accepted the responsibility of a throwaway kid.

    I do think it's fair to question Giles and whether or not he failed as Faith's Watcher. Although, that said, I do find it mildly amusing how conveniently we decide when Giles should be upholding his authoritarian and caretaker role as "The Watcher" and when Giles and his role are nothing but by oppressive, patriarchal symbols of the Council who should stay out of Slayer's lives. How do we define what responsibility Giles has over Faith as her self-appointed (or Council-appointed, anyway) Watcher and where does that responsibility end? Who decides these parameters? It's all fairly ambiguous and wishy washy.
    It is, and we know how Giles defined them. He had no interest in helping her. Had Buffy been homeless he wouldn't have let her squat in a motel room and dumpster dive for food. He would have taken in Willow and Xander if they were living on the streets during high school, and helped find them shelter. But even though he asked for and was given the responsibility of being Faith's watcher that responsibility apparently did not include any concern for her welfare in his eyes. She wasn't ever part of the inner circle.

    I'm also not sure why Wesley escaped this blame, either. People rightly or wrongly criticise Giles for his failure to be a good Watcher to Faith whilst in his temporary position as her Watcher ("I'm to stay on as Faith's Watcher until the new Watcher arrives") but nobody blames Wesley for not offering to house Faith when he takes over the position in "Bad Girls"?
    Because I have far higher expectations of Giles. Wesley at this point was useless.

    Perhaps my unpopular opinion is that Faith put on a pretty good game face and a lot of the time the purpose of that game face is so that those around you don't realise how lonely you may be, or how much you may be struggling, or whether or not you could do with more support. And perhaps pretty expectedly, the unfortunate consequence of wearing that game face is that those around you may actually start to believe it. I can think of only one time - ever - that Faith asked for help and that was in "Sanctuary" ("Help me") and Angel readily obliged. I can think of one time where Faith decided to show vulnerability ("Amends") and Buffy welcomed her in with open arms. I really can't fault a bunch of young adults for believing that Faith really did love her adult-free life, her partying, her flights of fancy, and her fondness for fighting. She put on a pretty big show of looking down on Buffy's "geek pals" as if they were beneath her and not worth her time and expressed this repeatedly. If people want to blame the Scoobies for not being insightful enough or for being too naive to see that a lot of it was an act I think that equally, if not more so, Faith deserves a lot of the blame herself for continuously putting on that facade.
    That facade is how she survived and protected herself all her life. These people made it pretty clear she was never going to be one of them. She was exotic at first but after that they used her, kept secrets, and lied to her. Given her background she would have been nuts to lose the facade. That's the difference between economic classes.

    Look at it this way. If Buffy moved to Japan and went to a Japanese academy she would be considered loud, rude, defiant and disrespectful. It would be hard to make friends because associating with her would be accepting behavior that is over the top bad. There are different social rules there, and she has no idea what they are. She has an academic background that puts her years behind other students. Maybe with time she would adapt, but then she would no longer be our Buffy. Expecting her to adapt within days is ridiculous.

    Faith did express on multiple occasions that she'd had a hard childhood and the Scoobies were aware of this ("I know you had a hard life. I know you had a lot of tough breaks...") but Faith, as far as I can recall, really only ever expressed this when she was using it as an excuse to behave badly or when she was trying to manipulate people (she's guilty of both in "Enemies"). Whilst it may not be as easy as saying Faith she just lay bare all her vulnerabilities as if it were that simple, Faith is responsible for those around her becoming jaded about her rough upbringing. When it's consistently used as a way of dismissing and putting down others because they haven't been through what you've been through or as a way of justifying your actions ("But mum was too busy enjoying the drinking and passing out parts of life to ever really give me what I wanted. Until now...") it's understandable people's capacity for sympathy would wane.
    Everything about her screams that she grew up lower class with absentee parents, on the streets. She is filled with rage and jealousy. Yeah, at this point she is justifying her actions and manipulating. Her first rule is survival, and that means unquestioning loyalty to the Mayor.

    I also agree with others such as Sosa Lola that Xander's awful childhood is repeatedly minimised and dismissed not only by fans but by the other characters as well. We gleamed a lot about Xander's childhood from Xander's jokes which could easily be interpreted as his cry for help. Like Faith, Xander is also sadly responsible for how others may perceive his home life if his mask as Class Clown is worn a little too well, a little too often, but you could also partially criticise the Scoobies for not seeing though the facade as well. Xander's childhood seemed really rough. His parents were alcoholics, his relatives were alcoholics, and there's plenty of clues to suggest that Xander may have both witnessed his father being physically abusive to his mother (we heard them physically fighting in "The Replacement") and to him as well. I'm not sure why we'd trivialise that and I'm not sure why it doesn't compare to Faith?
    Yes, he has a rough life. He also has a support system. And I would rather leave him for another thread.


    I think it's possible that Giles was just failing as a Watcher. He does have double-standards when it comes to Buffy and Faith and he shows a vested interest in keeping Buffy safe and pushing her to train harder despite her not wanting to do so out of concern ("Reptile Boy") as opposed to Faith whom he casually accepts isn't interested in training ("Helpless"). However, as I said in my other post, I find it a little amusing how inconsistent we are with demanding that Giles fulfil his duties as Watcher one minute and then criticising the Watchers for being stuff, patriarchal assh*les who have no right to be telling Slayers what to do. Which is it? Should Giles be upholding his responsibilities as a Watcher or do we not care what a Watcher is 'responsible' for because they just made up the rules anyway and the system they created to control Slayers, is unjust and misogynistic? We either buy into their role and the position they claim to hold... or we don't. And if we do buy into that role and Giles did have a responsibility as part of that role to shelter Faith then, sure, he failed, but if we don't, then Giles doesn't have any more responsibility to shelter Faith than he did Xander in Season 4.
    Xander had a home in season 4 and he was no longer in high school.

    I think the criticism is mainly about season 7 Giles. Up until then he gets praise for being a great father substitute. His love for the child got him fired. I don't expect him to be a father figure for Faith. I don't expect him to babysit her sister, visit her mother in hospital, go out of his way to be part of her life. But making sure an underage child has food and shelter doesn't seem to be beyond his means. Even if his job does not require him to do so, I see a moral imperceptive there. And I do believe that if the good guys had taken her in with open arms and helped her out she would have been far more willing to go to Giles when things went pear shaped. That's my life experience at least.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Uhmmm - sorry about the lecture. Just, I feel passionately.
    Last edited by bespangled; 11-05-19 at 02:31 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bespangled View Post
    Sorry, I was unclear here. I meant Jail in ATS, Faith turned herself in, and stayed in even though she could leave any time. My point was that every single person in the B-verse has done wrong but we have context for them so we excuse it when they accept the consequences. This is what she did. It took her a while to realize she could no longer exist with rage as her main motivator. Willow who also committed a rage murder is given a summer vacation with a coven, and is accepted back.
    To be honest, I don't find Faith and Willow very comparable. Willow's murderous rampage took place over one night and day. In fact, it may have been even less than that as Dawn was already at school by the time Tara was shot so for all we know it was the middle of the day or early afternoon. Nevertheless, whilst I'm certainly not suggesting that it makes Willow's murder ok, Willow's rampage was brief and fleeting. She was talked down to and reasoned with within approximately 24 hours. On the other hand, Faith's commitment to evil lasted weeks if not months and wasn't a crime of passion at all but rather a cold, calculated and pre-meditated rampage against not only those whom she perceived to have wronged her (Buffy and the Scoobies) but regular Sunnydale citizens as well.

    Now, I much prefer Faith's story. Whilst I initially understand Willow's anger towards Warren in "Villains" it has always felt extremely tenuous to me that she'd then set her sights on Jonathan and Andrew. That 'emotional logic', IMO, was iffy at best, and just felt like a contrived way to extend her dark arc over the three final episodes. It doesn't feel emotionally true to me that Willow would hold Andrew or Jonathan responsible for Tara's death seeing as how they were already locked up and out of sight and mind. And by the end of "Two to Go" where she's all "mwahaha it's about POWER!" I feel her storyline kind of derails pretty spectacularly, leading up to the unnecessary apocalyptic showdown on King Man's Bluff. I also think it's annoyingly ambiguous how much it's meant to be Willow and how much it's meant to be the dark 'magicks' making Willow behave this way.

    Whereas, I totally get Faith's story for the most part. It feels organic to me and the steps she takes and the things she does make sense for pretty much all the reasons you've articulated in your own posts. I certainly much prefer Faith's turn to darkness but based on how fleeting Willow's is, and based on how emotionally raw Willow was in the immediate aftermath of seeing Tara gunned down in front of her, I ultimately find her actions far more forgivable and sympathetic. By the time Faith's already aligned herself with The Mayor over several weeks and gleefully plans to sadistically torture Buffy, I think Faith's had enough time to reconsider what she's doing that I don't have much sympathy for her left.
    '
    Nah, Buffy was demanding that Faith be punished as soon as she arrived. She was there for vengeance. In fact jail wasn't enough for her when it was first brought up. She settled for it when Faith turned herself in to save Angel.
    I think you may be misremembering "Sanctuary" as it's actually Buffy who first raises the idea of jail long before Faith turns herself in;

    ANGEL
    She has a chance to change. She wants to.

    BUFFY
    No. No chance. Jail.

    ANGEL
    Do you think that'll help?


    She wasn't just settling for it. She was demanding it happen.

    We live pretty lean. When I was a teacher I made under 20k a year because I worked in a charter Montessori school. But when my daughter's friend was on the street we took her in. Her mother was a psychotic crack whore (her words) and her father raped her when she was 9. She lived with us for seven years because we as a family voted to take her in. and we learned to look past the facade and love her. It meant sharing a bed with my daughter and another stone in the soup. She literally wore a mask of make-up, and had huge trust issues. She and my daughter share an apt now. I am not talking about duty. I am talking about not turning your back and closing your eyes when you have accepted the responsibility of a throwaway kid.
    It's great that you did that but I could never fault someone else for not doing the same. If someone doesn't feel emotionally or monetarily equipped to take on another teenager then I could never hold that against them. Joyce did not accept the responsibility of a throwaway kid and that's honestly her right. For instance, Joyce is ecstatic when she learns that Buffy has been accepted into Northwestern University and states in "Choices" that it's certainly not cheap but that if Hank pitches in they'd make it work. Had she taken Faith into her home, would Buffy have still been able to attend Northwestern if she'd wanted to? Quite possibly not. And in all honesty, I'd completely understand that Joyce isn't willing to deny her own daughter the higher education she's worked hard for after nurturing her and loving her for eighteen years because she's taken into to her home another eighteen year old who she honestly don't know that well. Most parents will prioritise their own children over anything else and I can't fault them for that whatsoever.

    It is, and we know how Giles defined them. He had no interest in helping her. Had Buffy been homeless he wouldn't have let her squat in a motel room and dumpster dive for food. He would have taken in Willow and Xander if they were living on the streets during high school, and helped find them shelter. But even though he asked for and was given the responsibility of being Faith's watcher that responsibility apparently did not include any concern for her welfare in his eyes. She wasn't ever part of the inner circle.
    Well, let's just be clear here - Faith wasn't living "on the streets" and it's not stated anywhere in the text whatsoever that Faith was "dumpster diving for food." None of that is actually supported in the text at all. For one thing, Faith's motto was "Want. Take. Have" so I don't think she'd have had any hesitation about stealing food and/or cash to pay for food. And whilst Faith may have not had a home she did have shelter and she was living in the motel room for an extended period of time. As HardlyThere stated, in "Faith, Hope & Trick" we saw her talking her way out of paying her bill but I imagine she couldn't have continued to do that for weeks on end. She obviously was paying the bill somehow which, again, was most likely from cash that she stole. Now, whether or not you think it was extremely poor of Giles that he allowed her to be in a position where she had to steal to survive is another thing entirely, but there's certainly nothing to suggest whatsoever she was "dumpster diving" or "living on the streets."

    Because I have far higher expectations of Giles. Wesley at this point was useless.
    He was her Watcher, though. Whether you just expect the worst of him or not, it's still ultimately his responsibility from "Bad Girls" onwards.

    That facade is how she survived and protected herself all her life. These people made it pretty clear she was never going to be one of them. She was exotic at first but after that they used her, kept secrets, and lied to her. Given her background she would have been nuts to lose the facade. That's the difference between economic classes.
    This is where you lose me, to be honest. IMO your vilification of The Scoobies is undeserved. I have criticised Xander for using Faith in "Revelations" because I do think he manipulated her to serve her own purposes. However, I'm struggling to see how "they" kept secrets from her and lied to her? Buffy lied to her and kept secrets from her in regards to Angel but Buffy lied to and kept secrets from everybody in regards to Angel. Furthermore, if you're referring to "Revelations" where Faith wasn't included in the intervention against Buffy, I wouldn't be parroting Gwendolyn Post. Post was manipulating Faith by making her feel like Faith was purposely excluded. I think it's far more likely that The Scoobies simply had a slip of mind and didn't think to consider Faith given that she didn't attend school with them, was still relatively new to the group, and hadn't been around in "Homecoming" or "Band Candy." This idea that they deliberately kept her out of the loop and deliberately lied to her and kept secrets from her is completely unfounded.

    Look at it this way. If Buffy moved to Japan and went to a Japanese academy she would be considered loud, rude, defiant and disrespectful. It would be hard to make friends because associating with her would be accepting behavior that is over the top bad. There are different social rules there, and she has no idea what they are. She has an academic background that puts her years behind other students. Maybe with time she would adapt, but then she would no longer be our Buffy. Expecting her to adapt within days is ridiculous.
    Not a single Scooby member expressed problems with how Faith behaved in a group setting. In fact, aside from Buffy who obviously felt territorial and protective, the gang were incredibly charmed by Faith's personality.

    Willow did come to find Faith annoying and I don't think Willow warmed to Faith's personality in the long run. But Faith displayed the same lack of regard for Willow and Xander as well. Faith rolls her eyes at Willow in "Bad Girls" because Willow's shocked that Buffy was skipping class/her test. Faith is really cold to Willow later in the episode when she rocks up to Buffy's house and finds Willow in Buffy's room. Then Faith laughs in Xander's face in "Consequences" for thinking they "had a connection" and accuses him of wanting to brag to all his "geek pals" about how they slept together. Faith later refers to The Scoobies as Buffy's "lameass friends" in "Enemies." Faith makes it incredibly clear throughout Season 3 that she finds The Scoobies to be Buffy's annoying, geeky, lame and uncool hangers on that she feels superior to. I don't think you really factor any of that into your Scoobies vs Faith analysis at all.

    Everything about her screams that she grew up lower class with absentee parents, on the streets. She is filled with rage and jealousy. Yeah, at this point she is justifying her actions and manipulating. Her first rule is survival, and that means unquestioning loyalty to the Mayor.
    Many, many people grow up under similar circumstances to Faith but they don't mercilessly kill old men in cold blood or plan to sadistically torture someone out of jealousy. They also don't poison people and take extreme satisfaction out of the thought of them having a "wicked painful" and agonising death. I agree with you about the root of Faith's issues but there's a gap between Faith's background and what Faith ultimately starts doing. She crosses major lines that other people in her position simply never do. Faith took extreme pleasure in the thought of other people suffering - people whom she'd known and been friends with.

    Yes, he has a rough life. He also has a support system. And I would rather leave him for another thread.
    Faith could've had a support system too. After the fallout in "Revelations" Buffy went to her and tried to patch things up. After Faith tried to frame Buffy for Finch's murder Buffy still tried to help her and give her another chance ("I'm not giving up on her"). Angel also tried to help her in "Consequences" and the beginning of "Enemies." And characters like Xander were incredibly forgiving under the circumstances (she tried to throttle him) and were willing to interact with her. None of these people are perfect. None of them didn't make mistakes. But, hey, that's life. They were all still there for Faith all willing not to cast her out but because they weren't 100% perfect towards Faith and 100% blameless for anything that may have happened, Faith didn't have a support system? Nah. It's an unfair standard to hold people to and it's not a standard any of the other Scoobies hold themselves to with each other. It's on Faith if she cuts people out the moment they disappoint her in some way.
    Last edited by vampmogs; 12-05-19 at 03:59 AM.
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    vampmogs:
    Many, many people grow up under similar circumstances to Faith but they don't mercilessly kill old men in cold blood or plan to sadistically torture someone out of jealousy. They also don't poison people and take extreme satisfaction out of the thought of them having a "wicked painful" and agonising death. I agree with you about the root of Faith's issues but there's a gap between Faith's background and what Faith ultimately starts doing. She crosses major lines that other people in her position simply never do. Faith took extreme pleasure in the thought of other people suffering - people whom she'd known and been friends with.
    I think that`s just what the original question of this thread is. Why do some poeple with the same Background Faith has not murder others? Or why do some óf them follow the same path faith choose?

    This is not about "poor kid, she had a broken home, let`s not press charges for the vulcanologists death." Faith did make a choice. The question is if there is something that could have made a difference and could have led her (earlier) to making different (and better) choices.

    There is no simple answer to that. As I said in my earlier post I don`t think a warm welcome would have made all the difference. I agree with bespangled that every kid is entitled to have a home and to be loved no matter what they do to not deserve it. But sadly that doesn`t meant every wound will heal.

    Neither Joyce nor Buffy, Willow or Xander were responsible for Faith. Giles, Wes and the Watchers`Council on the other hand surely were.

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    There is a difference between excusing actions and giving context for choices. Trust me, I know that the majority of people who come out of chaos and abuse work to heal themselves in some way, and don't go on to abuse others. This healing is usually facilitated by friends, counseling, medication, or volunteers who work the suicide and abuse hotlines. Another big factor is a lack of judgement and a belief that healing and even redemption are possible. This is where Angel comes in. His lack of judgement and his support gives Faith a reason not to kill herself or anyone one else, and to realize she needs to take responsibility for her choices.

    The converse is that a majority of murderers have two things in common, a lifetime of abuse with no intervention and some degree of brain damage. The question is whether Faith would have done better had things been different in Sunnydale, had someone intervened and stopped her spiral before it started, when she still hero worshiped Buffy.

    A lot of the answers so far are that Faith did bad things and no one had a duty to intervene. I agree she did bad things. That's a given as far as this question goes. As to intervention, this is what we are discussing. As far as I am concerned the story as told focuses on the POV of the scoobies. All I am trying to do is flip the story and give context as to why Faith did these bad things, and what might have helped. There's a myth out there that every child or teen is fully capable of climbing out of abusive childhoods and getting a great job and living a responsible life without anyone helping them. Therefore those who don't do this are withholding and immoral by choice. That means Faith was just evil by choice and she enjoyed it. I agree that she chose her side and killing was a release that she enjoyed. But there are reasons behind her choice - there is a context. And if there is a context there is a question as to whether a change in that context would have resulted in a change in Faith's choices. I think it could have done so.

    To be honest, I don't find Faith and Willow very comparable. Willow's murderous rampage took place over one night and day. In fact, it may have been even less than that as Dawn was already at school by the time Tara was shot so for all we know it was the middle of the day or early afternoon. Nevertheless, whilst I'm certainly not suggesting that it makes Willow's murder ok, Willow's rampage was brief and fleeting. She was talked down to and reasoned with within approximately 24 hours. On the other hand, Faith's commitment to evil lasted weeks if not months and wasn't a crime of passion at all but rather a cold, calculated and pre-meditated rampage against not only those whom she perceived to have wronged her (Buffy and the Scoobies) but regular Sunnydale citizens as well.
    I am talking simply about Willow's actions being motivated by rage, but the fact is that her choices over the entire season led to that rage. She chose to kill an animals and engage in necromancy for what she thought was a good reason. When things got sour she chose to double down and use magic in ways that were pretty horrific. Buffy was her intervention. Losing Tara was her wake up call. She tamped things down until she exploded. The time frame is really a full season for both of them spiraling out of control. We can accept that Willow was properly rewarded by a vacation in England because we know her.

    Now if we want to count Willow's actions as 24 hours, then Faith killed the volcanologist in that same time period. Willow flayed Warren. Faith repeatedly stabbed the volcanologist. Faith's actions were motivated by rage, the rage she had inside her most of her life. If humans can lack a soul, or have a soul that isn't fully awake I would say this is what Faith is at this point. Her sense of morality is limited because she has never learned how to be unselfish. Willow has learned but the dark magics she has filled herself with overwhelm her moral sense. Which is worse? The one who throws away her moral grounding to take revenge or the one who never had a moral grounding? Does morality need to be taught or can you just pick it up on the streets?

    And where does the fact that Faith was also traumatized fit in? We never saw Faith's watcher, let alone saw her brutal murder and Faith's attempt to save her. But this is why she showed up in Sunnydale. This happened immediately before she arrived in town. I don't thnink she was feeling particularly rational at his point.


    Now, I much prefer Faith's story. Whilst I initially understand Willow's anger towards Warren in "Villains" it has always felt extremely tenuous to me that she'd then set her sights on Jonathan and Andrew. That 'emotional logic', IMO, was iffy at best, and just felt like a contrived way to extend her dark arc over the three final episodes. It doesn't feel emotionally true to me that Willow would hold Andrew or Jonathan responsible for Tara's death seeing as how they were already locked up and out of sight and mind. And by the end of "Two to Go" where she's all "mwahaha it's about POWER!" I feel her storyline kind of derails pretty spectacularly, leading up to the unnecessary apocalyptic showdown on King Man's Bluff. I also think it's annoyingly ambiguous how much it's meant to be Willow and how much it's meant to be the dark 'magicks' making Willow behave this way.
    The whole addiction plot line is pretty clumsy. My view on Willow is that this has been coming for a long time, both for the reasons that everyone agrees on, but also the fact that magic is pulled from the earth. So all the magic that Willow has used all along was tainted by the hellmouth.

    Whereas, I totally get Faith's story for the most part. It feels organic to me and the steps she takes and the things she does make sense for pretty much all the reasons you've articulated in your own posts. I certainly much prefer Faith's turn to darkness but based on how fleeting Willow's is, and based on how emotionally raw Willow was in the immediate aftermath of seeing Tara gunned down in front of her, I ultimately find her actions far more forgivable and sympathetic. By the time Faith's already aligned herself with The Mayor over several weeks and gleefully plans to sadistically torture Buffy, I think Faith's had enough time to reconsider what she's doing that I don't have much sympathy for her left.
    Yeah, I do too. Had Willow actually attacked and caused permanent harm to anyone we care about it would be a different story. They managed to keep her sympathetic. But she did sadistically attack Giles, Buffy, Dawn, Xander, and Anya. Was torturing Giles as bad as planning to torture Buffy? Your call. Her taking in the magic early in the season and using it to tear Buffy out of heaven was a choice made for good reasons in her eyes. But magic has consequences, and this entire season is really about those consequences. She chose her addiction. She chose to use magic on people she loved to make them behave as she wanted them to. Willow made choices just like Faith did. Killing Warren and trying to end the world is the result of those choices.

    If we had seen the abuse, neglect and constant betrayals that Faith had to surmount in order to survive, if we saw how and why she was so hardened and distrustful, then we would probably had more sympathy. I'm not saying that her choice to join the mayor and do his bidding, to work for his triumph over the scoobies is good. I am saying it makes sense given who she is, and here distrust, insecurity, rage, and jealousy and selfishness make sense given what her life has been.

    Faith: (without looking up) Yeah, well, you can't trust people. I
    should've learned that by now.

    Buffy: I realize this is gonna sound funny coming from someone that
    just spent a lot of time kicking your face... but you can trust me.

    Faith: (looks up, amused) Is that right? (tosses the magazine aside)

    Buffy: I know I kept secrets, but I didn't have a choice. I'm on your
    side.

    Faith: *I'm* on my side, (nods) and that's enough.



    I think you may be misremembering "Sanctuary" as it's actually Buffy who first raises the idea of jail long before Faith turns herself in;

    ANGEL
    She has a chance to change. She wants to.

    BUFFY
    No. No chance. Jail.

    ANGEL
    Do you think that'll help?


    She wasn't just settling for it. She was demanding it happen.
    Yup! My bad.


    It's great that you did that but I could never fault someone else for not doing the same. If someone doesn't feel emotionally or monetarily equipped to take on another teenager then I could never hold that against them. Joyce did not accept the responsibility of a throwaway kid and that's honestly her right. For instance, Joyce is ecstatic when she learns that Buffy has been accepted into Northwestern University and states in "Choices" that it's certainly not cheap but that if Hank pitches in they'd make it work. Had she taken Faith into her home, would Buffy have still been able to attend Northwestern if she'd wanted to? Quite possibly not. And in all honesty, I'd completely understand that Joyce isn't willing to deny her own daughter the higher education she's worked hard for after nurturing her and loving her for eighteen years because she's taken into to her home another eighteen year old who she honestly don't know that well. Most parents will prioritise their own children over anything else and I can't fault them for that whatsoever.

    I don't fault Joyce, although an extra kid really is not that expensive. I think the fact that Buffy would have deeply resented it was part of her choice. Buffy already said she was being 'single white femaled,' and Joyce said it was lucky Buffy was an only child. Buffy made it clear that she didn't want to share her life, her mother, or her home.

    I do fault Giles. He never accepted Faith as his slayer, and he made no attempt to help her in any real way. Since ha asked to be responsible for her, and was given that responsibility he should have taken her needs into consideration. I think that he is the nexus. Had he arranged a place for her to stay, room and board, it would have made a huge difference. I believe it was his responsibility and his duty to take care of his new slayer. "I am her watcher. I am responsible" He said that repeatedly about Buffy. He didn't just drop the ball on Faith, he threw it in the garbage.


    Well, let's just be clear here - Faith wasn't living "on the streets" and it's not stated anywhere in the text whatsoever that Faith was "dumpster diving for food." None of that is actually supported in the text at all. For one thing, Faith's motto was "Want. Take. Have" so I don't think she'd have had any hesitation about stealing food and/or cash to pay for food. And whilst Faith may have not had a home she did have shelter and she was living in the motel room for an extended period of time. As HardlyThere stated, in "Faith, Hope & Trick" we saw her talking her way out of paying her bill but I imagine she couldn't have continued to do that for weeks on end. She obviously was paying the bill somehow which, again, was most likely from cash that she stole. Now, whether or not you think it was extremely poor of Giles that he allowed her to be in a position where she had to steal to survive is another thing entirely, but there's certainly nothing to suggest whatsoever she was "dumpster diving" or "living on the streets."
    I used both phrases figuratively, not literally. Squatting an a seedy motel is a form of living on the streets. Squatting in a condemned house, or an abandoned building is living on the street. It's temporary - there's a lack of security, a lack of consistency, and a constant fear of having no place to go. The fact that she is left there reinforces her determination not to trust or open up. There is also no textual proof that she stole food or cash. Let's just say that Faith was food insecure, and had no permanent residence. She was lacking any mentor, and aware that no one gave two hoots about her. She was traumatized by the death of her watcher. She was afraid of showing weakness. She was afraid of showing weakness that would be exploited in her experience. She needed help in a lot of ways.

    Why didn't she ask for help? Why didn't Buffy call Giles in season six?


    He was her Watcher, though. Whether you just expect the worst of him or not, it's still ultimately his responsibility from "Bad Girls" onwards.
    Yeah, Wesley at this point let everyone down. But if Giles had arranged room and board then Wesley wouldn't have countermanded it.


    This is where you lose me, to be honest. IMO your vilification of The Scoobies is undeserved. I have criticised Xander for using Faith in "Revelations" because I do think he manipulated her to serve her own purposes. However, I'm struggling to see how "they" kept secrets from her and lied to her? Buffy lied to her and kept secrets from her in regards to Angel but Buffy lied to and kept secrets from everybody in regards to Angel. Furthermore, if you're referring to "Revelations" where Faith wasn't included in the intervention against Buffy, I wouldn't be parroting Gwendolyn Post. Post was manipulating Faith by making her feel like Faith was purposely excluded. I think it's far more likely that The Scoobies simply had a slip of mind and didn't think to consider Faith given that she didn't attend school with them, was still relatively new to the group, and hadn't been around in "Homecoming" or "Band Candy." This idea that they deliberately kept her out of the loop and deliberately lied to her and kept secrets from her is completely unfounded.
    I am not vilifying them. I am showing them through Faith's eyes. Again it's context. In her eyes, being left in the motel matters. In her eyes being blown off when she wants to get closer to Buffy matters. In her eyes being lied to matters. In her eyes being betrayed matters. In her eyes being disliked matters. In her eyes being used matters. In her eyes being made an idiot when she thought she finally had someone who cared matters. In her eyes having someone who she trusted engineer all this (albeit unintentionally) come and tell her immediately after that Faith can trust her is a joke. This set the scene for how she reacts later, and why she makes the choices she does. I am not supporting those choices. I am trying to give Faith's side of the story.


    Not a single Scooby member expressed problems with how Faith behaved in a group setting. In fact, aside from Buffy who obviously felt territorial and protective, the gang were incredibly charmed by Faith's personality.
    They were charmed when they met her, other than Cordelia. That reaction was pretty much over in one day. After that it was pretty clear she wasn't going to fit in. She was too loud, said inappropriate things, just didn't know how to behave like them. She went of slaying on her own because there was really no reason to stay in town. There are a fair amount of episodes where she doesn't appear. Giles blows her off which is sad since it appears Faith had a really good relationship with her watcher - the one she saw torn to pieces. With Faith's lust for the kill, her need for action to outrun her inner demons, going off on her own to slay makes sense.


    Many, many people grow up under similar circumstances to Faith but they don't mercilessly kill old men in cold blood or plan to sadistically torture someone out of jealousy. They also don't poison people and take extreme satisfaction out of the thought of them having a "wicked painful" and agonising death. I agree with you about the root of Faith's issues but there's a gap between Faith's background and what Faith ultimately starts doing. She crosses major lines that other people in her position simply never do. Faith took extreme pleasure in the thought of other people suffering - people whom she'd known and been friends with.
    Gimme a break. Do you really think I don't know that? Why do you think I take in kids? Because intervention is key. Because someone saying I care, and I will be beside you matters. Yes, Faith did bad things. I have conceded that repeatedly. I am simply saying Faith had inner demons, she had her own reasons to do those bad things. Not all children who are sexually abused go on to commit murder, but I guarantee that they all feel rage, distrust, broken and devalued. Faith was used sexually by adults, and since that was all she had in terms of support she learned to harden herself. She played them as much as she was able because feeling like a victim, feeling powerless, sucks. So when another man was willing to take her in, when he gave her the love of a father, she didn't care that he was evil. And yes, that rage withing her was given free reign, She took delight in trying to make people suffer, make them feel helpless, make them feel what she had grown up with.


    Faith could've had a support system too. After the fallout in "Revelations" Buffy went to her and tried to patch things up. After Faith tried to frame Buffy for Finch's murder Buffy still tried to help her and give her another chance ("I'm not giving up on her"). Angel also tried to help her in "Consequences" and the beginning of "Enemies." And characters like Xander were incredibly forgiving under the circumstances (she tried to throttle him) and were willing to interact with her. None of these people are perfect. None of them didn't make mistakes. But, hey, that's life. They were all still there for Faith all willing not to cast her out but because they weren't 100% perfect towards Faith and 100% blameless for anything that may have happened, Faith didn't have a support system? Nah. It's an unfair standard to hold people to and it's not a standard any of the other Scoobies hold themselves to with each other. It's on Faith if she cuts people out the moment they disappoint her in some way.
    Cutting people out when she feels betrayed is a survival skill in her life. There is absolutely nothing to show that Faith could have had a support system. Giles pretty much abandoned her and he was the adult responsible for her. Buffy did try to be her friend, when she wasn't lying and keeping secrets which amounts to jerking her around. Angel's intervention might have made a difference, but Wesley blew that chance. By the time she tried to kill Xander she was already spiraling downward but before that his only real interest was in sex. Given that he was dating Cordy, there's something a little skeevy there. Again -Faith's POV taking in her what life had taught her.

    What it comes down to is Faith would have been much better if she was a totally different character. Obviously that's true, but then she wouldn't have been Faith. If Giles had taken her under his wing along with Buffy and made arrangements to get her room and board I think it would have made a difference. If Buffy hadn't lied to her and betrayed her so early on I think Faith would have opened up more. If Wesley hadn't intervened, I think Angel could have made a real difference. So my answer to the question remains that Faith was failed.
    Last edited by bespangled; 14-05-19 at 02:36 AM.
    Bottom line is, even if you see them coming, you're not ready for the big moments...The big moments are gonna come, you can't help that. It's what you do afterwards that counts. That's when you find out who you are.

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