Results 1 to 5 of 5

Thread: All the times souled Spike messed up

  1. #1
    Slayer flow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    1,497
    Thanks
    3,598
    Thanked 3,587 Times in 1,475 Posts

    Default All the times souled Spike messed up

    There is a part in fandom that believes Spike did not change at all after he got the soul. I don`t belong to that part and I can easily see fundamental changes in him as well as in his actions. But Spike also made mistakes after he got his soul. That`s not really surprising because we all make mistakes. Anyway, here is my list of all the times Spike spectacularly failed in BtVS 7, AtS 5 or in the IWD and DH comics. Please feel free to add more of his mistakes or to defend him!

    1. He did not call Buffy after he popped out of the amulet. Yeah, he was a ghost, but I am sure Harmony or Fred would have held the telephone reciever and dialled the number had he asked them to. He must have known that Buffy would grieve him, regradless if she was in love with him or not. He should have spared her that grief.

    2. He did not return Nikki`s coat to Robin. We have recently been talking about LMPTM in the After Show Reacts thread. I know that this episode is highly debated in the fandom and a lot of things Spike said to Robin during their fight are also at least questionable. But Spike was fighting for his life and he was really pissed off. However I do think, he should at least have offered to hand over Nikki`s coat to Robin a couple of days after the fight.

    3. He fell for Lindsay`s stupid scheme. Had he confided at least in Fred they would easily have found out who really was behind the "be our new Champion" charade.

    4. He humped Harmony after he was corporeal again. There is nothing bad about humping per se, of course. But he treated her even worse than he had treated the Buffybot. At least they also went out for a drink afterwards.

    5. He bit Cordelia. This is more or less part of mistake no. 3 but if he was already suspicious, why not just ask?

    6. He went after Dana. As Angel pointed out, a vampire was the last Person she needed to encounter and the least likely to be able to help her.

    7. He tortured a doctor from Wolfram & Hart. I know they desperately needed to know the whereabouts of Illyria. But still. Torture is torture. I can`t give him a pass for that, even considering the dire circumstances.

    8. He voted for Angel`s scheme to kill every single member of the Circle of the Black Thorne. It was a stupid scheme and he should have recognized it for that and talked Angel out of it. It affected millions of innocent people in L.A. when the city was pulled into a hell dimension. It was predictable that something apocalyptic like that would happen as pay back from the Senior Partners. That`s his biggest mistake in my opinion.

    What do you think?

    flow
    http://www.buffyforums.net/forums/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=34707&dateline=152518  8054
    Banner by Zenseem

    Will you just hold me ?

  2. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to flow For This Useful Post:

    a thing of evil (06-04-19),Sosa lola (07-04-19)

  3. #2
    Slayer Priceless's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    4,113
    Thanks
    8,740
    Thanked 7,722 Times in 3,699 Posts

    Default

    He sleeps with Harmony again in the comics, and tries to get off with Faith, but she turns him down

  4. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Priceless For This Useful Post:

    flow (07-04-19),SpuffyGlitz (06-04-19)

  5. #3
    Well Spiked Stoney's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Blighty
    Posts
    7,975
    Thanks
    10,802
    Thanked 12,831 Times in 5,310 Posts

    Default

    Regarding the coat, I recently put forward why I think him keeping the coat works in the defending your favourite character thread so I won't go back over it all again. Basically, it goes against his personal wishes to wear it again and so is putting your own wishes aside for the greater good, he's pushed to do what is needed to offer more for the fight, to be more effective. I understand having an issue with him keeping it but I think it is narratively supported very deliberately against Nikki (and Buffy) putting the mission first and Spike then putting the need to connect to that side of himself above both what he/Robin want. He is taking on the mantle of the slayer and the coat then represents that and him putting his life on the line for the mission. But as I said, I do understand disliking it, needing the image connection is part of a character weakness and I don't think that his treatment of Robin in that whole scene, the way he spoke to him, was okay. He definitely took it too far even though I do also understand his fury at what Robin did too.

    His drink with Harmony was incidental in AtS 5, they just bumped into each other if I recall correctly, and during the course of his talk at the bar with her he makes it clear he doesn't care about her personally yet again. So I don't think having a drink was much of a positive but that he at least realised that he had been treating her callously was. Sleeping with her was a poor choice and he does at least see it as connected to being at a low point with some distance after he does it again in the comics.

    I tend to see the things he said to Robin, sleeping with Harmony (both for the callousness and because she's soulless) and torturing the doctor as the things he has done that were wrong when souled. I also think the NFA plan was destructive and negative, but I see his struggle to see worth in himself and the path he should walk as greatly leading into him falling to sacrificing himself again and not seeing it as clearly for the wider picture as he should have because of that.
    Last edited by Stoney; 06-04-19 at 11:13 PM.

  6. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Stoney For This Useful Post:

    flow (07-04-19),Priceless (07-04-19),SpuffyGlitz (06-04-19)

  7. #4
    Slayer flow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    1,497
    Thanks
    3,598
    Thanked 3,587 Times in 1,475 Posts

    Default

    Stoney
    He is taking on the mantle of the slayer and the coat then represents that and him putting his life on the line for the mission. But as I said, I do understand disliking it, needing the image connection is part of a character weakness and I don't think that his treatment of Robin in that whole scene, the way he spoke to him, was okay. He definitely took it too far even though I do also understand his fury at what Robin did too.
    I agree that his choice to wear the coat again is a choice to become the fighter he was again and it is a choice he makes against his own wishes but he knows it`s what is needed in the situation. He later says in AtS 5 that the coat is his secoind skin and "it`s what I am". I do believe that the coat holds far more significance to him than it ever did to Nikki or Robin. I think he was right to take the coat back after he had won the fight with Robin. I also think he was justified (not right) to say what he said to Robin during the fight because it was part of getting the upper hand against someone who tried to kill him. But I do think there should have been a moment somewhere between that fight and the final battle in the hellmouth where he should have talked to Robin and just said "Here`s the coat if you want it". If Robin would have taken it back, he would have had to cope without it but I think there is a good chance that Robin would simply have said "Keep it, itīs yours now." And maybe that even happened off screen ;-). Okay,probably not...

    Priceless
    He sleeps with Harmony again in the comics, and tries to get off with Faith, but she turns him down
    I don`t regard those flirts or flings as him completely messing up. Sex with Harmony in the comcis is certainley sex to escape his own feelings of lonelyness and rejection but he does not treat her badly when they meet in London or at least we don`t see it. About Faith - well. They are both single. He basically says "We are both single, how about?" and she goes "Nah." Thatīs okay for me and it even would have been okay if they had gone for it. Itīs how he has sex with Harmony in AtS 5 that rubs me the wrong way. Not the fact they have sex at all. It`s that he treats her like a doll or a robot. Humping her on a desk during her lunch break, even closing his eyes and ordering her to not talk so he can imagine it`s someone else. I can only get over it by telling myself, he doesn`t get as far as opening the zipper of his jeans...

    flow
    Last edited by flow; 07-04-19 at 09:15 AM.
    http://www.buffyforums.net/forums/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=34707&dateline=152518  8054
    Banner by Zenseem

    Will you just hold me ?

  8. The Following User Says Thank You to flow For This Useful Post:

    Priceless (07-04-19)

  9. #5
    Well Spiked Stoney's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Blighty
    Posts
    7,975
    Thanks
    10,802
    Thanked 12,831 Times in 5,310 Posts

    Default

    Which wouldn't have been putting the mission first, it's the bigger battle(s) that he is using it for, not the fight with Robin. It is definitely a character weakness, to have a need to use items/a costume to build an image, but it is very consistently so for him. It's a shame it wasn't something that ever was given specific development over the comic seasons. But having said that, it'd be interesting to look back through and see how his outfits shifted. I've a feeling in the later seasons he was shown far more often to stray outside of the traditional outfit and how much that happened, especially if there was a split evident before and after his decision to return and become more integrated, would be interesting to consider.

  10. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Stoney For This Useful Post:

    flow (07-04-19),Priceless (07-04-19)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •