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Thread: Making it up as they went along - What was/wasn't planned

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    Quote Originally Posted by BtVS fan View Post
    I think Greenwalt has said that when they killed Doyle off they planned to bring him back when he got cleaned up but he never did.

    Wasn't GQ also friends with David Boreanaz too. The worry of getting your star/title character into that stuff when you've only just started a brand new spin off with him would be huge for Joss and Greenwalt.

    With Xander in S5/S6 Nick Brendon is looks in great shape then in S7 you do start to notice the difference.

    And regards weight S1 Sarah (where she looked incredible) goes right down in S2 then more so in S3. For a feminist show the skinny girl trope was not great.
    Seeing old interviews where she said she was hurt by Joss calling Cruel Intentions porny, I wonder if that's where they first started to fall out.
    Now I don't know if this true, this is just speculation but didn't her contract come up in S3, was that the reason Eliza's Faith was brought in case she didnt re-sign ?
    DB and Quinn were friends. They weren't too keen on Lindsey using Doyle's name in S5 because of that.

    Where did you pick up that Eliza stuff? As vampmogs said, Faith was brought in to kill herself, so no. Also the cast signed extensions in S2, which was typical. You can tell because she apparently negotiated wardrobe approval and away went the ultrashort skirts. She was under contract until S7.

    Back to the topic, I was just now listening to the Killer In Me commentary and Greenberg mentions they didn't know as of writing that ep that Spike was going to get the chip out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HardlyThere View Post
    DB and Quinn were friends. They weren't too keen on Lindsey using Doyle's name in S5 because of that.

    Where did you pick up that Eliza stuff? As vampmogs said, Faith was brought in to kill herself, so no. Also the cast signed extensions in S2, which was typical. You can tell because she apparently negotiated wardrobe approval and away went the ultrashort skirts. She was under contract until S7.

    Back to the topic, I was just now listening to the Killer In Me commentary and Greenberg mentions they didn't know as of writing that ep that Spike was going to get the chip out.


    Like I said, it was just speculation the Faith stuff, I don't know if it was true or not ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by KingofCretins View Post
    Well, there were at some point plans, they were all but explicitly confirmed in the "Reptile Boy" commentary, which would have been recorded one assumes after S2 but while breaking and beginning production on S3? So something was penciled in for S3/S4 at some point that whoever did the commentary... Greenwalt?
    And Marti Noxon randomly talked about Xander/Cordelia in one of the season 5 commentaries (I can't remember which) and how she would like to see them back and try to work it out. Writers talking about ships in DVD commentaries sometimes tell you nothing except which writers liked which ships.

    I was always under the impression that any potential Buffy/Xander storyline was thrown away after season 2, and for Xander/Willow after season 3. And I have absolutely no idea where the idea of Buffy/Willow even comes from. That has never been a thing in any way, not even remotely hinted. Sometimes friendships are just, you know, friendships? You don't nerd to have romantic/sexual tension or one-sided unrequited crush/love with every single one of your friends in the same age group.
    Personally, I never liked the season 1 Buffy/Xander/Willow unrequited love triangle, was immensely relieved when all of them had other love interests by mid-season 2 (especially since all those relationships had much more romantic chemistry), and really happy when the show let the 3 core Scoobies just be friends.

    As for thinking Buffy/Faith was ever seriously considered as an actual romantic relationship - you guys do realize that Joss and the rest of the writing staff have never managed to discover that bisexuality exists? Not even by the time they started doing the comics.
    Last edited by TimeTravellingBunny; 04-04-19 at 01:16 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TimeTravellingBunny View Post
    And Marti Noxon randomly talked about Xander/Cordelia in one of the season 5 commentaries (I can't remember which) and how she would like to see them back and try to work it out. Writers talking about ships in DVD commentaries sometimes tell you nothing except which writers liked which ships.
    That was S2 in What's My Line when they start making out. She said she wouldn't mind seeing Xander go to LA because she didn't think it was over for them. It was recorded around S4/S5. That was only her personal thing, not a 'we are planning to do this' thing.

    I was always under the impression that any potential Buffy/Xander storyline was thrown away after season 2, and for Xander/Willow after season 3. And I have absolutely no idea where the idea of Buffy/Willow even comes from. That has never been a thing in any way, not even remotely hinted. Sometimes friendships are just, you know, friendships? You don't nerd to have romantic/sexual tension or one-sided unrequited crush/love with every single one of your friends in the same age group.
    Amen. I believe it's a result of fans reaching the point where they want anything but what they got. You stare at the same thing long enough, the brain starts to imagine it being something else.

    As for thinking Buffy/Faith was ever seriously considered as an actual romantic relationship - you guys do realize that Joss and the rest of the writing staff have never managed to discover that bisexuality exists? Not even by the time they started doing the comics.
    Marti has said she herself never considered Willow to be gay as late as S5. It's not that they didn't know bisexuality exists, they just made different choices with the characters. Buffy/Faith was never considered for the same reasons Buffy/Tara or Buffy/Cordy was never considered: They never wrote Buffy as interested in women.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HardlyThere View Post
    That was S2 in What's My Line when they start making out. She said she wouldn't mind seeing Xander go to LA because she didn't think it was over for them. It was recorded around S4/S5. That was only her personal thing, not a 'we are planning to do this' thing.



    Amen. I believe it's a result of fans reaching the point where they want anything but what they got. You stare at the same thing long enough, the brain starts to imagine it being something else.



    Marti has said she herself never considered Willow to be gay as late as S5. It's not that they didn't know bisexuality exists, they just made different choices with the characters. Buffy/Faith was never considered for the same reasons Buffy/Tara or Buffy/Cordy was never considered: They never wrote Buffy as interested in women.
    So how come then:
    - no one ever uses the word bisexuality in canon, and they don't seem to even be aware the concept exists
    - characters who have had sexual and/or romantic relationships with both men and women in canon are either proclaimed to be; in-universe and/or by Joss, either "gay now" (Willow), "kind of gay" (Vampire Willow, according to Willow), straight but having a "college experimentation" (Buffy in S8), or straight but "open-minded and not bound by rules" (soulless Angel and Spike)?
    - Joss considered making Xander "gay", in his own words, in spite of the abundance of evidence of Xander being really horny for women and in love/crush with multiple girls - rather than making him bisexual, which would have made a lot more sense
    - Willow showed plemty of interest in men in seasons 1-4, having been in love with Xander and Oz, having had the "clothes fluke" affair with the former and having had a good and happy romantic and sexual relationship with Oz, which was never shown to be unsatisfying for her, sexually or emotionally. After she starts a relationship with Tara, she seemed to be bisexual in season 4 when she still seemed to have some feelings for Oz, and in early season 5 she was into Dracula. In Tough Love, Tara expressed her fear that Willow was just "going through a phase" and was going to "go back" to men - because apparently, you have to choose a side (?). Willow declares she is "gay now" (?) and by season 7, she's supposed to lost any interest in men to the point that she would rather turn that jacket dude into a woman than do something as gross as have sex with a bepenised individual, even though she never had that problem when she was with Oz
    - When Buffy had a brief relationship with Satsu in S8, every character kept warning her that "Buffy is not gay" and that this is why it will never work, or called out Buffy on how weird it was that she slept with a woman when she's "not gay". Not a single person, including Buffy herself, ever brought up bisexuality as a possibility, not even to dismiss it. They never said "Buffy is not bi" or "Buffy is straight".
    - Faith was hinted to have an interest in Buffy that seemed kind of romantic, and flirted with Lilah, but in S8, she makes it clear she's "no homo"
    - The only character who didn't "choose sides" - Vampire Willow - was an evil soulless vampire portrayed as oversexed and very kinky

    One may argue that Lorne was a counterexample, but that was just hinted and his sexuality was never confirmed and was treated as ambiguous (of course,, that would refer to Angel and not Buffy anyway).
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    Quote Originally Posted by TimeTravellingBunny View Post
    So how come then:
    - no one ever uses the word bisexuality in canon, and they don't seem to even be aware the concept exists
    - characters who have had sexual and/or romantic relationships with both men and women in canon are either proclaimed to be; in-universe and/or by Joss, either "gay now" (Willow), "kind of gay" (Vampire Willow, according to Willow), straight but having a "college experimentation" (Buffy in S8), or straight but "open-minded and not bound by rules" (soulless Angel and Spike)?
    - Joss considered making Xander "gay", in his own words, in spite of the abundance of evidence of Xander being really horny for women and in love/crush with multiple girls - rather than making him bisexual, which would have made a lot more sense
    - Willow showed plemty of interest in men in seasons 1-4, having been in love with Xander and Oz, having had the "clothes fluke" affair with the former and having had a good and happy romantic and sexual relationship with Oz, which was never shown to be unsatisfying for her, sexually or emotionally. After she starts a relationship with Tara, she seemed to be bisexual in season 4 when she still seemed to have some feelings for Oz, and in early season 5 she was into Dracula. In Tough Love, Tara expressed her fear that Willow was just "going through a phase" and was going to "go back" to men - because apparently, you have to choose a side (?). Willow declares she is "gay now" (?) and by season 7, she's supposed to lost any interest in men to the point that she would rather turn that jacket dude into a woman than do something as gross as have sex with a bepenised individual, even though she never had that problem when she was with Oz
    - When Buffy had a brief relationship with Satsu in S8, every character kept warning her that "Buffy is not gay" and that this is why it will never work, or called out Buffy on how weird it was that she slept with a woman when she's "not gay". Not a single person, including Buffy herself, ever brought up bisexuality as a possibility, not even to dismiss it. They never said "Buffy is not bi" or "Buffy is straight".
    - Faith was hinted to have an interest in Buffy that seemed kind of romantic, and flirted with Lilah, but in S8, she makes it clear she's "no homo"
    - The only character who didn't "choose sides" - Vampire Willow - was an evil soulless vampire portrayed as oversexed and very kinky

    One may argue that Lorne was a counterexample, but that was just hinted and his sexuality was never confirmed and was treated as ambiguous (of course,, that would refer to Angel and not Buffy anyway).
    Asexuality isn't mentioned, either, along with a host of other things. I don't argue that it isn't mentioned in explicitly in canon, I only argue that Joss and Co. knew what it was. As I said, Marti's view until S5 was that Willow was in love with Tara at the time, not that she was 100 "Gay now". They were faced with a choice: Make her bi and get all the backlash from the Kittens and lesbian community or make her gay. They chose the latter. Prior to S7 there was speculation about X/W possibly being a thing. And quite a bit of outrage at the idea of it.

    They didn't make Xander gay, either. We can only speculate what they might have done had they gone down that route. Maybe they would have because it wouldn't have been such a landmark thing and less pushback against it. There were other m/m relationships on TV as opposed to W/T being more groundbreaking.

    They never had any intention of making Buffy anything other than straight. Buffy/Satsu was a publicity stunt and a farce, using Goddard's own word there. I'm not even going to defend the writing here because it's terrible, but you are asking them to put a serious spin and recharacterize on a story that was never meant to be taken seriously. The whole thing was an offensive college boy fantasy. In-story, the only rationalization is it's someone scratching an itch.

    Faith is where I'd agree with you. They could have made her bi and it would have made sense. I'd say they go further than "no homo" with her in the comics to basically making her sexless. They removed that, along with a bunch of other traits from her and other characters.

    I do think they could have had some more color in that regard on the show, but I also think they needed to add more characters in general. Post-S2, you can count on 1 hand the number of characters they added that weren't love interests.

    Lastly, I'd point out that sex doesn't equal a sexuality. A person can have sex with anything. There is a billion dollar industry filling the need for that. A lesbian can have sex with a man and even get off on it the same way they can with a device. A gay man, a woman, same thing. A straight person and someone of the same sex, same thing. It doesn't change any of their orientations.

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    I was just listening to “Buffering the Vanpire Slayers” podcast of “Primeval” and they interviewed Lindsey Crouse who played Maggie Walsh. She actually stated that she went to Joss asking how long her arc would be in the show so she could plan her life/kids around it and Joss told her they’d be killing her off in 2 weeks time from then but would be bringing her back at the end of the season. Now it’s posdibke she’s remembering this wrong but this contradicts what has previously been said in the past about Lindsey wanting out of contract and Adam becoming the Big Bad as a result. According to her she loved being on the show and it wasn’t her decision m.
    Last edited by vampmogs; 04-04-19 at 11:18 PM.
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    The suppositions above that Spike and Faith were saved from being killed off by fan interest makes me wonder how far ahead of airdate were episodes filmed. I can see fan squee saving Faith, as it was 5 months between her first episode and "Consequences". But in the case of Spike, there was less than 2 months between "School Hard" and "What's My Line 2". It doesn't seem like there would have been time to evaluate how fans felt about the character in time to change Joss' mind about killing him off.

    Is it possible that when people on the commentary talk about "fans" they mean "cast, crew, and writers room"? They are the ultimate fans, after all.
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    This was the dawn of the internet though, and BTVS writers etc interacted quite freely with fans. I suspect Marsters also sold himself with the character he was able to create at that stage.
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    I thought this would fit in this thread - most of you have probably seen it before because it is quite old but it was new to me and I found it interesting.jane espenson describes the writing process for a Buffy episode:

    http://www.janeespenson.com/writing_process.php

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebcake View Post
    The suppositions above that Spike and Faith were saved from being killed off by fan interest makes me wonder how far ahead of airdate were episodes filmed. I can see fan squee saving Faith, as it was 5 months between her first episode and "Consequences". But in the case of Spike, there was less than 2 months between "School Hard" and "What's My Line 2". It doesn't seem like there would have been time to evaluate how fans felt about the character in time to change Joss' mind about killing him off.

    Is it possible that when people on the commentary talk about "fans" they mean "cast, crew, and writers room"? They are the ultimate fans, after all.
    Apologies if I've posted this before.

    The following, which I think is taken from The Write Environment, (2008), belies JM's claims that he alone was responsible for Spike evolving. It also suggests that Whedon had no intention of killing him off early:

    Interviewer: So when did you realize that Spike was more than just a villain?

    Joss Whedon: Pretty much when James Marsters auditioned for it. Spike was, you know... Spike was somebody that I loved conceptually, and then James just brought and then kept on bringing. So it was a pretty gradual process, but it was always happening...from the very beginning the idea was, well, he's not just a cardboard. He's gonna have levels to play. How many I didn't at the time realize, but in a way, he really didn't change that much.

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    JM's claims that he alone was responsible for Spike evolving.
    When did he ever say that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silver1 View Post
    When did he ever say that?
    LOL! He probably didn't - I worded it badly. Although I do find JM's remarks inconsistent sometimes and his words tend to be taken as gospel - possibly because he's so prominent on the convention circuit. Here's a transcript. I haven't seen the DVD.


    https://enisy.livejournal.com/6697.html

    You guys... I've never loved Joss this much. And that's saying a lot, since I had oodles of love for him even before this.

    This is an excerpt from an interview that icafreak transcribed from "The Write Environment" DVD. icafreak recently unlocked her post, so you can also see the transcript here.

    Follow the cut...

    Jeff: So when did you realize that Spike was more than just a villain?

    Joss: Pretty much when James Marsters auditioned for it. Um, Spike was ya know, Spike was somebody that I loved conceptually and then ya know, James just brought and then kept on bringin'. So, it just, it was a pretty gradual process but it was always happening.

    Jeff: A unique transition in that character from just a villain to almost the typical anti-hero. And yet never completely there.

    Joss: Well, as a villain he was, ya know the Master that we started with was a straight up villain like, his belief system was just evil. And what was fun about Spike was, I said ok great and, and Mark, Mark Metcalf did a wonderful job, but now we need a villain who, that we can relate to in the way that we're relating to our other people, so that thematically they can become useful. So to introduce this guy who is clearly 'oh I'm such a bad ass' and then have him very tenderly in love with another vampire, so from the very beginning the idea was well he's not just, ya know a cardboard. He's, he's, he's gonna have levels to play. Um, how many I didn't at the time realize, but ah, in a way he, he really didn't change that much. Ah, he's a character that I always liked a little bit more than Angel because --

    Jeff: He's got more of an edge.

    Joss: He was more evolved, though. He had more of an edge, but at the same time ya know he was, ya know he chose to have a soul.

    Jeff: Sure.

    Joss: Ya know he ah, he learned from his mistakes and he um, Angel was kinda the classic Lestat puffy shirt, ya know...

    Jeff: Right.

    Joss: Um, and ah, and Spike was sort of the new mod rebellion against that, so I ah, I like that character. I always, I always thought he was a good guy even when he was a bad guy.

    Jeff: Bad boy though, chicks love bad boys.

    Joss: They do, they do. If they loved bad dancers the way they loved bad boys I would have been like, whoo.

    Jeff: You would have been writing that.

    Joss: Oh yeah.

    Jeff: So it was an easy decision to bring him from Buffy over to Angel.

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    If they loved bad dancers the way they loved bad boys I would have been like, whoo.
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    LOL! He probably didn't - I worded it badly
    Yeah, I think you did, as in every interview I've read or seen him say at cons he's always banged on about how the character of Spike was very much a collaborative affair.

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    Well Charisma has come out and openly said she never hid her Pregnancy from anyone. That she was always open about it. She's been backed up by both Tim Minear and David Fury. TBH it makes Joss look even worse as its not something that was sprung on him then.

    Check out @AllCharisma’s Tweet: https://twitter.com/AllCharisma/stat...455603200?s=09

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    CC never hid her pregnancy and was never invited back for S5 and that broke her heart. But we still don't know why Joss never 'invited her back'. I believe CC completely, but I'd like to hear what Joss has to say. It's good that Tim Minear has stood up for her.

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    Thanks for linking that tweet from Charisma. It is something that has been said so many times in fandom I admit I had just assumed it was true. Whilst there will always be speculation, it sounds like there has been enough misinformation circling around this so it could well be true for the assertions made as to why Joss opted for what he did too.

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    I've always, always heard that Charisma delayed telling them about her pregnancy (I do wonder if the word "hid" is what she and Minear are objecting to or if it's everything overall) but personally I don't think Whedon was all that interested in Cordy as a character early into "Angel." He originally wanted to leave Cordy behind in Pylea to rule as their queen but was talked out of it. And in pre-Season 5 interviews he said that he felt her character had run her course and that her arc was essentially meant to be Buffy's arc pre-Sunnydale (high school ditz handed a responsibility and turns into a hero etc) and that now she had reached the place Buffy was at in "Welcome to the Hellmouth" we'd already seen Buffy's story and didn't need to see it again. But of course that could just be his excuse rather than admitting that she left the show due to behind the scenes drama.

    Charisma has mentioned that she started feeling hurt when she noticed that Amy Acker/Fred was getting pushed to the forefront in promotional shots. It definitely seemed like both Whedon and The WB started preferring her and that she edged Cordy/Charisma out. I personally prefer Cordy to Fred but, admittedly, I can also kind of understand why. Acker just is, by far, the better actress, and whilst I think Charisma was superb at playing Cordy when she was more snarky, she really showed her limitations towards the end of Season 3 when they tried to have her act dramatically. I think she nailed Cordy early on but I frankly don't think she is leading woman material and I can sadly understand why Acker became more favoured. I feel sorry for Charisma but Hollywood is a cutthroat business and if Acker was more diverse than it's inevitable she'd start getting noticed more.
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    vampmogs
    I've always, always heard that Charisma delayed telling them about her pregnancy
    I have heard she had miscarriage before that pregnancy and if that is the case, she maybe just waited until at least the critical first 12 weeks were over. The question really is, at what stage of a pregnancy is an actress obliged to inform the producers and writers about a it? The moment she unwraps the pregnancy test?

    I can understand though, that Joss simply didn`t have any more stories to tell about Cordy. I don`t think Fred was more interesting as a character. To me she always seemed to be a bit Mary Sue-ish. But she was a new character and the writers could tell new stories involving her. They had done almost everything to Cordelia. She had been pregnant, in love, a demon, a higher being and a snarky cheerleader. What should they have done in season 5? Have her hold hands with Angel for an entire season? I love Cordy, but she had been on BtVs for three seasons and on AtS for four seasons. She`s been part of the story for a longer time than anyone else of Angels`s team except for Angel himself.

    flow

    - - - Updated - - -

    vampmogs:
    I've never been under the impression that they toyed with killing Xander off because of NB's addiction issues. If anything, killing him off was likely to give him as an actor even more responsibility and screen time as Joss intended to use him as the face of The First for the remaining episodes. It would have been a weird situation where NB would've probably got better material as an actor if they'd killed off his character than if they hadn't
    I haven`t heard that before. As others here, I was always under the impression, they wanted to kill off Xander because NB was having addiction issues, but in the end spared him out of nostalgia. But it seems it actually was the other way round. They did not kill him off because of his issues and thus he missed a great opportunity to come back as evil!Xander. It would have added so many more layers to his acting and would have shown he could be much more than just the high school buddy for seven long years. I think (sober) NB could have pulled it off, he was brilliant as vamp!Xander in The Wish. And what an opportunity for the plot line. Imagine Buffy`s grief and probably guilt because she would have led Xander into the death trap. And what would Willow`s reaction have been to Xander`s death alone, let alone him coming back impersonated by The First Evil? It actually gives me goosebumps, to think about it. Has anyone ever written a fanfic based on this story line that never made it onto the screen?

    vampmogs:
    I was just listening to “Buffering the Vanpire Slayers” podcast of “Primeval” and they interviewed Lindsey Crouse who played Maggie Walsh. She actually stated that she went to Joss asking how long her arc would be in the show so she could plan her life/kids around it and Joss told her they’d be killing her off in 2 weeks time from then but would be bringing her back at the end of the season. Now it’s posdibke she’s remembering this wrong but this contradicts what has previously been said in the past about Lindsey wanting out of contract and Adam becoming the Big Bad as a result. According to her she loved being on the show and it wasn’t her decision m.
    I checked her filmography and there weren`t any major projects in 1999 and 2000. She appeared on a couple of episodes of other
    tv-shows and was a minor character in a tv-film, but nothing she would have to quit BtVS for. Her children were already eleven and seventeen years old and it`s unlikely, she wanted out of her contract to focus on parenting, especially since she continued her acting career after BtVS. Therefore it sounds very plausible that she never wanted out of her contract but was written out of BtVS. It leaves us without any explanation though, why the Big Bad of season 4 was such a weak Big Bad. Until now the explanation has always been that Maggie was supposed to be the Big Bad and when she unexpectedly left, the writers had to made do with Adam.

    flow
    Last edited by flow; 23-04-19 at 08:18 PM.
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