Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 71

Thread: Making it up as they went along - What was/wasn't planned

  1. #21
    Slayer
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Posts
    1,539
    Thanks
    3,947
    Thanked 2,235 Times in 1,041 Posts

    Default

    - Spike may not have been in "Angel" Season 6 if JM got his way. JM said that whilst filming the episode "Underneath" he was about to go into Whedon's office and demand to be let out of his contract because he was constantly feuding with producer Kelly Manners and couldn't stand to work with him anymore. JM said that just before he was going to go to Joss it was announced that the series was ending anyway
    - Oz had been planned to join the cast of "Angel" permanently in Season 6 or as a reoccurring character. He was meant to be a mentor to Nina.
    Thats the first time I've heard of this. Is this just JM 'twisting' the truth again?


    I'm not sure about anything that drastically changed whilst shooting or at a really late stage that was a significant turn of events/plans. The downside of coming to the show later and not watching any of the commentaries and rarely reading any writer interviews etc.
    Yep, that'll do It every time.
    Last edited by Silver1; 01-04-19 at 08:24 AM.

  2. #22
    Bronze Party-Goer
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Posts
    152
    Thanks
    172
    Thanked 202 Times in 92 Posts

    Default

    Angel" had a LOT of backstage dramas/unexpected issues which messed with the show. Way, way more than "Buffy" did. I think that it contributed largely to, IMO, how disjointed and messy the show often felt.[/QUOTE]

    Buffy S4 seemed to have a few. Both Seth Green and Lindsay Crouse left.
    Oz I think they could handle. Seth said he left because all he did was agree with Buffy and he was kind of right.
    Not having the series long Big Bad though was a much worse issue. Once Maggie Walsh was killed off The Initiative arc dropped like a stone. It had issues anyway but without Maggie it made it really obvious.
    Then you have Spike, he was brought back then did nothing for most of the season except as Joss admits borrow a cup of coffee and insult the gang.

    Side not on the Passion of the nerd podcast on Hero he mentions a Greenwalt interview on Glen Quinn. That they were going to kill him off but would have brought him back if he'd got cleaned up. Sadly that never happened.

  3. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to BtVS fan For This Useful Post:

    a thing of evil (01-04-19),vampmogs (01-04-19)

  4. #23
    Slayer flow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    1,481
    Thanks
    3,581
    Thanked 3,544 Times in 1,456 Posts

    Default

    I have always been wondering what they would have done with Maggie Walsh if Lindsay Crouse hadn`t left.

    flow
    http://www.buffyforums.net/forums/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=34707&dateline=152518  8054
    Banner by Zenseem

    Will you just hold me ?

  5. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to flow For This Useful Post:

    BtVS fan (01-04-19),Priceless (01-04-19),Silver1 (01-04-19)

  6. #24
    Slayer Supporter vampmogs's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    12,567
    Thanks
    1,925
    Thanked 8,702 Times in 2,638 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by flow View Post
    I have always been wondering what they would have done with Maggie Walsh if Lindsay Crouse hadn`t left.

    flow
    Apparently they were going to focus on a Buffy/Riley/Maggie "triangle" if you will with Maggie trying to lure Riley to her side. We got a taste of it in "The I In Team" so it would've probably been something like that just on steroids and played out throughout the entire season.

    Adam was only meant to be her Frankenstein muscle henchman as obviously she couldn't go toe to toe with Buffy physically. It's such a shame. She would've been a great Big Bad.
    Last edited by vampmogs; 01-04-19 at 09:33 AM.
    - "The earth is doomed" -


  7. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to vampmogs For This Useful Post:

    BtVS fan (01-04-19),flow (01-04-19)

  8. #25
    Bronze Party-Goer
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Posts
    152
    Thanks
    172
    Thanked 202 Times in 92 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by flow View Post
    I have always been wondering what they would have done with Maggie Walsh if Lindsay Crouse hadn`t left.

    flow
    Adam in Prime Evil does say this is all exactly as she imagined except she thought she would be alive. I'm wondering if that's the writer talking to the audience on Maggie's role there

  9. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to BtVS fan For This Useful Post:

    flow (01-04-19),Priceless (01-04-19)

  10. #26
    Scooby Gang bespangled's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    Tucson, AZ
    Posts
    722
    Thanks
    1,593
    Thanked 1,929 Times in 739 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by vampmogs View Post
    bespangled, unfortunately I don't think that killing Xander off would've meant no Caleb. I think the original idea was that Caleb would kill Xander as oppose to just injure him so Caleb would've still had to have been introduced. However, with Xander as The First it's likely that he'd have taken centre stage in those remaining 4 episodes and that Caleb's screen time would've been reduced.

    I honestly don't know how I feel about killing off Xander. I agree that it was would have packed a real emotional punch (I'd have been absolutely devastated) and that it'd probably finally get The First to live up to it's potential but I also can't imagine Xander not being in the finale. I'm very torn on the idea. It's undeniable that it had a lot of story potential for the other characters but I'm also not entirely confident the writing would've lived up to it. There were a lot of missed opportunities around that time.

    "Angel" had a LOT of backstage dramas/unexpected issues which messed with the show. Way, way more than "Buffy" did. I think that it contributed largely to, IMO, how disjointed and messy the show often felt.
    It would have been the hardest death in the universe. But it occurs to me that Xander/First taunting Buffy would be like Xandgelus. Without the threat.

    All I know of Angel issues is that Glenn Quinn was cast in part because he and DB were personal friends. The production team was apparently sending chauffeurs to his home to wake him and get him sober enough to act. He was also apparently well loved overall - which is why they tried to shelter his reputation.

    And I know the CC season 4 debacles - along with a few other CC related bumps. Anything I'm missing?

    I heard Oz was going to be killed but Robia was starting to become uneasy with the show as she got deeper into Christianity and she told Joss she wasn't comfortable coming back.That's why they killed her instead of Oz.
    Bottom line is, even if you see them coming, you're not ready for the big moments...The big moments are gonna come, you can't help that. It's what you do afterwards that counts. That's when you find out who you are.

  11. The Following User Says Thank You to bespangled For This Useful Post:

    Silver1 (01-04-19)

  12. #27
    Bronze Party-Goer
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Posts
    152
    Thanks
    172
    Thanked 202 Times in 92 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by vampmogs View Post
    Apparently they were going to focus on a Buffy/Riley/Maggie "triangle" if you will with Maggie trying to lure Riley to her side. We got a taste of it in "The I In Team" so it would've probably been something like that just on steroids and played out throughout the entire season.

    Adam was only meant to be her Frankenstein muscle henchman as obviously she couldn't go toe to toe with Buffy physically. It's such a shame. She would've been a great Big Bad.
    Floppy disk guy was a 1 episode monster of the week villain stretched out over a whole arc.
    Not sure how effective the triangle would be given that they were always trying to protect the Riley character and give him an out. The writers wanted us to believe that he was Maggie's number 2 but somehow knew next to nothing about the Organisation and what she was trying to do. I mean common ...

  13. The Following User Says Thank You to BtVS fan For This Useful Post:

    TimeTravellingBunny (02-04-19)

  14. #28
    Moderator Sosa lola's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    The basement
    Posts
    3,169
    Thanks
    1,979
    Thanked 2,823 Times in 1,108 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Skippcomet View Post
    According to Goddard, the other writers had to convince Joss that killing Xander this late in the season, after such a long period of loyalty to Buffy or something, would come off as pettily punishing Xander or something (Sosa, you have a better memory for Xander-related stuff than I do, could you clarify this?)
    I listened to that commentary a long time ago. It was what you said, Joss wanted to show off NB's skills at playing the evil guy, but the other writers convinced him that it was a bad idea killing off one of the main four characters.
    Made by Trickyboxes
    Halfrek gives Spike the curse that will change his entire life. Teenage Dirtbag

  15. The Following User Says Thank You to Sosa lola For This Useful Post:

    Skippcomet (02-04-19)

  16. #29
    Bronze Party-Goer
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Posts
    152
    Thanks
    172
    Thanked 202 Times in 92 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sosa lola View Post
    I listened to that commentary a long time ago. It was what you said, Joss wanted to show off NB's skills at playing the evil guy, but the other writers convinced him that it was a bad idea killing off one of the main four characters.
    Apparently SMG and NB went to Joss to make Buffy and Xander a couple in S7 but he said no. Looks like Xander lost out twice there. I wonder if concern over NB's own issues might have played a part there.
    Regardless I think that was the right call by Joss on the relationship issue.

  17. #30
    Moderator Sosa lola's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    The basement
    Posts
    3,169
    Thanks
    1,979
    Thanked 2,823 Times in 1,108 Posts

    Default

    I would have actually enjoyed a S7 Buffy/Xander story. Both have grown up and matured and accepted their roles within the group. They were already Dawn's parents in S7.
    Made by Trickyboxes
    Halfrek gives Spike the curse that will change his entire life. Teenage Dirtbag

  18. #31
    Bronze Party-Goer
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Posts
    152
    Thanks
    172
    Thanked 202 Times in 92 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sosa lola View Post
    I would have actually enjoyed a S7 Buffy/Xander story. Both have grown up and matured and accepted their roles within the group. They were already Dawn's parents in S7.
    If they were gonna put Buffy with anyone it should've been Faith IMO

  19. #32
    Scooby Gang bespangled's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    Tucson, AZ
    Posts
    722
    Thanks
    1,593
    Thanked 1,929 Times in 739 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BtVS fan View Post
    If they were gonna put Buffy with anyone it should've been Faith IMO
    I'm all for that. It would have left Spike and Angel free for plenty of Spangel. Sadly Faith was busy doing an Orpheus walk through Angel's mind...now I would pay to see Spike doing that walk!
    Bottom line is, even if you see them coming, you're not ready for the big moments...The big moments are gonna come, you can't help that. It's what you do afterwards that counts. That's when you find out who you are.

  20. The Following User Says Thank You to bespangled For This Useful Post:

    Silver1 (01-04-19)

  21. #33
    Slayer
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    1,324
    Thanks
    67
    Thanked 1,455 Times in 720 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BtVS fan View Post
    Apparently SMG and NB went to Joss to make Buffy and Xander a couple in S7 but he said no. Looks like Xander lost out twice there. I wonder if concern over NB's own issues might have played a part there.
    Regardless I think that was the right call by Joss on the relationship issue.
    No, they went to Joss to *ask* if he was going to so they could prepare. He said no and rattled off Buffy wanting what she can't have (whatever that means) as a reason. If Sarah was pushing for anything, it was Buffy/Wood. Apropos of that, she was the one that convinced Joss not to kill him off early on. At least according to Woodside. He was supposed to die, probably in ep 4 or so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Silver1 View Post
    Thats the first time I've heard of this. Is this just JM 'twisting' the truth again?
    My bet. James has a penchant for hyperbole.

  22. The Following User Says Thank You to HardlyThere For This Useful Post:

    Silver1 (03-04-19)

  23. #34
    What? KingofCretins's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Big Honkin' Castle
    Posts
    13,708
    Thanks
    234
    Thanked 3,893 Times in 1,837 Posts

    Default

    Mutant Enemy is to Buffy Xander as Lucy Van Pelt and her football are to Charlie Brown. In Season 7 and Season 8 it went so far as to almost feel like "here is what it would look like, this is what normal days-in-the-life would be like... but (expletive) you". I jest, but yeah felt like that sometimes.

    It's really hard to know where Joss' obvious growing disinterest in the character of Xander and Nick's own personal problems intersect in terms of actual writing decisions. I watched Season 7, whatever else might have already been going on in his life, he could have pulled off the material and I've never heard of any issues his castmates were having with him during production. Just wasn't in the cards. It would have been a great fit. But so too, as I mentioned a few weeks back, would have Buffy and Willow. And I'd have still preferred either to what we got, sorry.

    Banner by LRae12

  24. #35
    Slayer
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    1,324
    Thanks
    67
    Thanked 1,455 Times in 720 Posts

    Default

    I believe Joss's interest in that went bye-bye in S2 around the time of the Angelus arc, assuming he ever even really had any. I think a lot of the expectation--which borders on entitlement in some cases--comes from the trope.

  25. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to HardlyThere For This Useful Post:

    Silver1 (03-04-19),TimeTravellingBunny (04-04-19)

  26. #36
    What? KingofCretins's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Big Honkin' Castle
    Posts
    13,708
    Thanks
    234
    Thanked 3,893 Times in 1,837 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by HardlyThere View Post
    I believe Joss's interest in that went bye-bye in S2 around the time of the Angelus arc, assuming he ever even really had any. I think a lot of the expectation--which borders on entitlement in some cases--comes from the trope.
    Well, there were at some point plans, they were all but explicitly confirmed in the "Reptile Boy" commentary, which would have been recorded one assumes after S2 but while breaking and beginning production on S3? So something was penciled in for S3/S4 at some point that whoever did the commentary... Greenwalt?

    Banner by LRae12

  27. #37
    Slayer
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    1,324
    Thanks
    67
    Thanked 1,455 Times in 720 Posts

    Default

    By Greenwalt, who left in S3. The commentaries weren't recorded until S4+ while filming was taking place. That's why none of the mains were able to do them. I buy that B/X was a possibility for them in S2, but it seems to have went away during the Angelus arc. You can see them possibly toying with it in Phases, but by the time IOHEFY rolls around it seems to have been kicked out. Just one of many things. I'm fairly sure X/W was also on the table. They were also possibly tinkering with making him gay.

    S3 was clearly going to be all about Angel from the time they decided to bring him back. S4 was all about Riley and introducing Anya after deciding Willow would be the gay one. It doesn't wash they had any real plans for it when they were planning all this other stuff to contradict it. I have little doubt it was pitched and discussed along with a billion other plotlines that were never used, but I don't buy they had any real plans for it in the sense that it was pinned up on the white board and breaking stories around it.

  28. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to HardlyThere For This Useful Post:

    Silver1 (03-04-19),TimeTravellingBunny (04-04-19)

  29. #38
    Slayer
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Posts
    1,539
    Thanks
    3,947
    Thanked 2,235 Times in 1,041 Posts

    Default

    I watched Season 7, whatever else might have already been going on in his life, he could have pulled off the material and I've never heard of any issues his castmates were having with him during production.
    Well as I've said before on this forum years back I attended a Buffy con where NB said about season 7 sometimes he was so drunk he could't even remember how he got home each night let alone anything else, so I doubt that went unnoticed by the production. So I doubt they would have entrusted anything crucial plot wise to his character at this point sadly.

    I also suspect thats why we saw so much material handed over to Tom Links character during this time.
    Last edited by Silver1; 03-04-19 at 10:01 PM.

  30. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Silver1 For This Useful Post:

    bespangled (03-04-19),SpuffyGlitz (03-04-19),TimeTravellingBunny (04-04-19)

  31. #39
    Scooby Gang bespangled's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    Tucson, AZ
    Posts
    722
    Thanks
    1,593
    Thanked 1,929 Times in 739 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by KingofCretins View Post
    It's really hard to know where Joss' obvious growing disinterest in the character of Xander and Nick's own personal problems intersect in terms of actual writing decisions. I watched Season 7, whatever else might have already been going on in his life, he could have pulled off the material and I've never heard of any issues his castmates were having with him during production. Just wasn't in the cards.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silver1 View Post
    Well as I've said before on this forum years back I attended a Buffy con where NB said about season 7 sometimes he was so drunk he could't even remember how he got home each night let alone anything else, so I doubt that went unnoticed by the production. So I doubt they would have entrusted anything crucial plot wise to his character at this point sadly.

    I also suspect thats why we saw so much material handed over to Tom Links character during this time.
    From what NB said he was a beer drinker who used to go through a half case to a case each day while hanging around set. You can actually watch his beer bloat get worse as his role gets smaller while the season goes on. I wasn't even watching the show but for some reason it stayed with me that when they announced that this would be the last season NB also announced he was immediately going into rehab. I'm pretty sure the public announcement was more about his career because by then he had a reputation for being an unpleasant drunk.

    I've wondered if this was part of why Joss got rid of Glen Quinn so quickly once it became clear that Quinn was gonna be a huge problem due to his drug issues. I mean other than kill off Xander, there was not much anyone could do except cut his role back and bring in new people to help carry the weight. That worked for Buffy, but I can see not wanting to start out that way with Angel.

    That's such a brutal life in the public eye. I can see why self medicating would be so hard to resist.
    Bottom line is, even if you see them coming, you're not ready for the big moments...The big moments are gonna come, you can't help that. It's what you do afterwards that counts. That's when you find out who you are.

  32. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to bespangled For This Useful Post:

    flow (04-04-19),Silver1 (03-04-19),TimeTravellingBunny (04-04-19)

  33. #40
    Bronze Party-Goer
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Posts
    152
    Thanks
    172
    Thanked 202 Times in 92 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bespangled View Post
    From what NB said he was a beer drinker who used to go through a half case to a case each day while hanging around set. You can actually watch his beer bloat get worse as his role gets smaller while the season goes on. I wasn't even watching the show but for some reason it stayed with me that when they announced that this would be the last season NB also announced he was immediately going into rehab. I'm pretty sure the public announcement was more about his career because by then he had a reputation for being an unpleasant drunk.

    I've wondered if this was part of why Joss got rid of Glen Quinn so quickly once it became clear that Quinn was gonna be a huge problem due to his drug issues. I mean other than kill off Xander, there was not much anyone could do except cut his role back and bring in new people to help carry the weight. That worked for Buffy, but I can see not wanting to start out that way with Angel.

    That's such a brutal life in the public eye. I can see why self medicating would be so hard to resist.

    I think Greenwalt has said that when they killed Doyle off they planned to bring him back when he got cleaned up but he never did.

    Wasn't GQ also friends with David Boreanaz too. The worry of getting your star/title character into that stuff when you've only just started a brand new spin off with him would be huge for Joss and Greenwalt.

    With Xander in S5/S6 Nick Brendon is looks in great shape then in S7 you do start to notice the difference.

    And regards weight S1 Sarah (where she looked incredible) goes right down in S2 then more so in S3. For a feminist show the skinny girl trope was not great.
    Seeing old interviews where she said she was hurt by Joss calling Cruel Intentions porny, I wonder if that's where they first started to fall out.
    Now I don't know if this true, this is just speculation but didn't her contract come up in S3, was that the reason Eliza's Faith was brought in case she didnt re-sign ?
    Last edited by BtVS fan; 04-04-19 at 07:43 AM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •