Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 71

Thread: Making it up as they went along - What was/wasn't planned

  1. #1
    Slayer Supporter vampmogs's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    12,567
    Thanks
    1,925
    Thanked 8,702 Times in 2,638 Posts

    Default Making it up as they went along - What was/wasn't planned

    Hey

    A recent discussion in the Buffy Podcast Thread brought up how the writers would often make the story up as they went and would sometimes still be writing the script on set of shooting an episode. There's some pretty famous storylines throughout the series that were planned years in advance (Dawn's arrival was first conceived in Season 3, Willow's turn to darkness was first conceived in "Becoming", Joss knew Angel was going to evil in Season 1, Joss had already began planning Buffy's Season 6 arc towards the latter half of Season 5 etc) but a lot of other storylines weren't pre-planned at all.

    I thought it would be interesting if we could collate all the examples of the writer's "making it up as they went"? I know of a few but I'm sure that between all of us there's many more?

    My first examples;

    1) In the DVD commentary for "Lessons" Whedon states that they came up with the name "Robin" because Robin could be both a girl/boy's name and they hadn't yet decided on what the gender of the character would be until D.B Woodside was cast. He goes on to state that whilst shooting "Lessons" D.B Woodside approached Joss and asked if he was going to be good or evil and Joss had not yet made up his mind or even planned out a storyline for the character yet. At that point they weren't sure what they were going to do with him and the Nikki Wood/Slayer's son storyline was conceived later on.

    Does anyone know of any other examples?
    Last edited by vampmogs; 31-03-19 at 06:29 AM.
    - "The earth is doomed" -


  2. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to vampmogs For This Useful Post:

    flow (31-03-19),MikeB (11-04-19),Silver1 (31-03-19),SpuffyGlitz (01-04-19)

  3. #2
    Slayer TriBel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Manchester, UK.
    Posts
    1,574
    Thanks
    4,312
    Thanked 4,458 Times in 1,906 Posts

    Default

    In the DVD commentary for "Lessons" Whedon states that they came up with the name "Robin" because Robin could be both a girl/boy's name and they hadn't yet decided on what the gender of the character would be until D.B Woodside was cast.
    This doesn't necessarily undermine the above but elsewhere, he claims Wood was named after the film scholar, Robin Wood, one of the leading theorists of Hitchcock and horror film. Seen from this perspective, the ambiguity between good/evil makes sense. Can't remember where I read the original claim but he talks about meeting the real Robin Wood in David Lavery's Joss Whedon: A Creative Portrait.

    Elsewhere:

    “…outlining and structure is a pain, it's pain and bricklaying. And to me is completely essential…On Buffy, nobody ever went to script without an outline, so nobody ever came back with a script where we had to rewrite the story. The structure is god to me…once you have the structure the fun is getting the meat of the scenes and finding the voices and actually writing it.” https://www.wired.com/2012/05/joss-whedon/

    Elsewhere: "Structure is hard. Structure is always hard, and the most important thing…Structure is work. It's math, it's graphs… During the talk, Whedon explained his mental process for keeping plot points and characters in order while writing. "I will do color charts that look like I'm doing a PowerPoint presentation where just ... 'This is where it's scary. This is where it's funny. This is where we know this ... and everything's got to find its flow and intersect," he said. https://www.businessinsider.com/joss...16-4?r=US&IR=T

  4. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to TriBel For This Useful Post:

    flow (31-03-19),ghoststar (21-04-19),MikeB (11-04-19),Priceless (31-03-19)

  5. #3
    Bronze Party-Goer
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Posts
    158
    Thanks
    181
    Thanked 211 Times in 97 Posts

    Default

    Spike is an obvious one. JL was meant to be brought back for Lovers Walk, it was only because of how Spike reacted on his own to other characters which convinced Joss to make him a regular. If JL had been available I doubt Spike would've had that opportunity and he wouldn't have been made a regular.

  6. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to BtVS fan For This Useful Post:

    flow (31-03-19),Priceless (31-03-19),TimeTravellingBunny (01-04-19)

  7. #4
    Slayer Supporter vampmogs's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    12,567
    Thanks
    1,925
    Thanked 8,702 Times in 2,638 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TriBel View Post
    This doesn't necessarily undermine the above but elsewhere, he claims Wood was named after the film scholar, Robin Wood, one of the leading theorists of Hitchcock and horror film. Seen from this perspective, the ambiguity between good/evil makes sense. Can't remember where I read the original claim but he talks about meeting the real Robin Wood in David Lavery's Joss Whedon: A Creative Portrait.
    Yeah if you could find where he states this that would be great. As you say, the two don't rule each other out (he could have picked the name because of both the film scholar and because it's genderless) but it's odd he wouldn't mention this at all in the DVD commentary. It's not that I'm doubting he said it, I'd just be genuinely interested to read it.

    Quote Originally Posted by BtVS fan View Post
    Spike is an obvious one. JL was meant to be brought back for Lovers Walk, it was only because of how Spike reacted on his own to other characters which convinced Joss to make him a regular. If JL had been available I doubt Spike would've had that opportunity and he wouldn't have been made a regular.
    Yep. Not to mention that Spike was originally meant to be killed off in "What's My Line II" and then again in "Innocence" (Angelus was going to stake him and hook up officially with Dru) but he was kept around due to the audience's response. Another similar case is Faith who was originally only supposed to appear for a 6 episode arc before committing suicide in her hotel room during "Bad Girls." Instead of getting the famous scene of Faith telling Buffy "No *you* don't get it. I don't care" we were instead meant to get a scene of Buffy finding Faith's body hung from the ceiling fan. It was only because the audience responded so well to Faith that her arc got extended.
    - "The earth is doomed" -


  8. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to vampmogs For This Useful Post:

    SpuffyGlitz (01-04-19),TimeTravellingBunny (01-04-19)

  9. #5
    Slayer TriBel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Manchester, UK.
    Posts
    1,574
    Thanks
    4,312
    Thanked 4,458 Times in 1,906 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BtVS fan View Post
    Spike is an obvious one. JL was meant to be brought back for Lovers Walk, it was only because of how Spike reacted on his own to other characters which convinced Joss to make him a regular. If JL had been available I doubt Spike would've had that opportunity and he wouldn't have been made a regular.
    Again, the following, which I think is taken from The Write Environment, (2008), belies JM's claims that he alone was responsible for Spike staying on the show and the character evolving:

    Interviewer: So when did you realize that Spike was more than just a villain?

    Joss Whedon: Pretty much when James Marsters auditioned for it. Spike was, you know... Spike was somebody that I loved conceptually, and then James just brought and then kept on bringing. So it was a pretty gradual process, but it was always happening...from the very beginning the idea was, well, he's not just a cardboard. He's gonna have levels to play. How many I didn't at the time realize, but in a way, he really didn't change that much.

  10. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to TriBel For This Useful Post:

    flow (31-03-19),Priceless (31-03-19),Silver1 (31-03-19),TimeTravellingBunny (01-04-19)

  11. #6
    Slayer flow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    1,483
    Thanks
    3,583
    Thanked 3,553 Times in 1,459 Posts

    Default

    vampmogs
    we were instead meant to get a scene of Buffy finding Faith's body hung from the ceiling fan.
    Obviously they re-used that idea, because we get Buffy finding Chloe`s body hung from the ceiling fan in season 7.

    I can only think of two very obvious and more a less well known examples. Firstly, they wanted to kill Xander in season 7 and changed that at last minute to an eye loss. I am not sure if they did that, because they feared there would be an outrage among fans if they killed Xander.

    The other example is Cassie being impersonated by The First Evil. They came up with Cassie because Amber Benson did not want to come back for an evil version of Tara.

    flow
    flow
    http://www.buffyforums.net/forums/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=34707&dateline=152518  8054
    Banner by Zenseem

    Will you just hold me ?

  12. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to flow For This Useful Post:

    Priceless (31-03-19),TimeTravellingBunny (01-04-19)

  13. #7
    What? KingofCretins's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Big Honkin' Castle
    Posts
    13,708
    Thanks
    234
    Thanked 3,893 Times in 1,837 Posts

    Default

    It's a nice reminder that Joss, for all his vision, really benefits when there's someone there to say 'no' to him sometimes.

    I sometimes wish we had gotten Amber for CwDP, she would have been devastating. She already did some evil Tara of a sort for "Chaos Bleeds" so she'd have had something to draw on.

    Banner by LRae12

  14. #8
    Bronze Party-Goer
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Posts
    158
    Thanks
    181
    Thanked 211 Times in 97 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by KingofCretins View Post
    It's a nice reminder that Joss, for all his vision, really benefits when there's someone there to say 'no' to him sometimes.

    I sometimes wish we had gotten Amber for CwDP, she would have been devastating. She already did some evil Tara of a sort for "Chaos Bleeds" so she'd have had something to draw on.
    I don't think Joss is perfect by any stretch of the imagination. His big problem is to raise an issue then cop out or simply ignore the implication of that issue. He focuses more on the moment than what comes next

  15. The Following User Says Thank You to BtVS fan For This Useful Post:

    TimeTravellingBunny (01-04-19)

  16. #9
    Slayer TriBel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Manchester, UK.
    Posts
    1,574
    Thanks
    4,312
    Thanked 4,458 Times in 1,906 Posts

    Default

    Yeah if you could find where he states this that would be great. As you say, the two don't rule each other out (he could have picked the name because of both the film scholar and because it's genderless) but it's odd he wouldn't mention this at all in the DVD commentary. It's not that I'm doubting he said it, I'd just be genuinely interested to read it.
    I wish I could find it. - just to prove to myself I'm not making it up! As it is, a couple of years ago I happened to mention "Robin Wood" to a colleague at work (he's not a Buffy fan). He pointed to a copy of the real RW's book on Hitchcock (which was on my shelf ) and made the comparison. I laughed at him - then found the quote and had to apologize. That's why it's stuck with me.

    TBH, Hitchcock makes complete sense (I think SpuffyGlitz compiled a list of scenes in BtVS that alluded to Hitchcock's films). Hitchcock's obsession with mother/son relationships, the phallic/castrating mother, Nikki/Spike and his mother / Wood's reference to "mom hair". IMO, it makes far more sense for it to be a Hitchcock reference than not.

    Even this (it's Whedon's description of the killing of the potential in Lesson's prologue) seems to me to be a homage to the shower scene in Psycho

    "Her eyes. The knife. It leaves frame, and comes back bloody. Again. Again. We see nothing, but we hear it all".

    flow:
    Firstly, they wanted to kill Xander in season 7 and changed that at last minute to an eye loss.
    Aren't there hints throughout the series that this will happen (some may be fortuitous)? As it stands, from the opening scene, S7 is about the ocular. Xander himself is aligned with seeing, sight and vision throughout (taking his googles off, mending windows, reference to him being the seer). That he's blinded by the patriarch in classic Oedipal fashion makes far more sense than his death would.

  17. The Following User Says Thank You to TriBel For This Useful Post:

    SpuffyGlitz (01-04-19)

  18. #10
    Well Spiked Stoney's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Blighty
    Posts
    7,943
    Thanks
    10,720
    Thanked 12,778 Times in 5,274 Posts

    Default

    Well there's this between Buffy and Xander in Dead Man's Party, but it is probably just that it became great foreshadowing rather than was planned as such...

    Buffy sees that it's Xander, and stays her attack. Xander is taken completely by surprise and just stares back at her.

    Buffy: (lowers the stake) Didn't anyone ever warn you about playing with pointy sticks? (shakes it at him) It's all fun and games until somebody loses an eye.

    Xander: You shouldn't sneak up on people like that!

    In terms of the topic of the thread I'm zero help. I've no idea apart from the well known shifts they did and I'm always left with the feeling that there is still always a degree of set up and planning for options in the structure across a character arc/season and the main decisions on directions are pretty well outlined before any writing on an ep starts and across the season before too. I'm not sure about anything that drastically changed whilst shooting or at a really late stage that was a significant turn of events/plans. The downside of coming to the show later and not watching any of the commentaries and rarely reading any writer interviews etc.

  19. The Following User Says Thank You to Stoney For This Useful Post:

    flow (01-04-19)

  20. #11
    Scooby Gang
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    530
    Thanks
    777
    Thanked 345 Times in 159 Posts

    Default

    Uh, no, I think you're seeing a pattern that doesn't actually exist. It's on the DVD commentary for "Dirty Girls" between Goddard and NB that Whedon's original plan for this episode was Caleb killing Xander, and the First Evil then taking Xander's form for essentially the remaining five episodes in order to both drive the pain home for Buffy and also (according to Whedon later on) to take advantage of NB's capacity to play scary evil (as seen in "The Pack" and "The Wish.) According to Goddard, the other writers had to convince Joss that killing Xander this late in the season, after such a long period of loyalty to Buffy or something, would come off as pettily punishing Xander or something (Sosa, you have a better memory for Xander-related stuff than I do, could you clarify this?)

    I have my own suspicions about behind the scenes reasons why Joss might have wanted to kill off Xander this late in the season (and so close to the end of the show), but the above is pretty much what has been said by those who were there since about five minutes after the episode first aired. None of this "there were clues throughout the season" attempt to make Joss look far more intellectual than he ever actually was.

  21. #12
    Well Spiked Stoney's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Blighty
    Posts
    7,943
    Thanks
    10,720
    Thanked 12,778 Times in 5,274 Posts

    Default

    I didn't say it was planned way back than, I'm not seeing a pattern that doesn't exist at all. I was responding to TriBel pondering if there were hints something might happen to Xander in the series and flagging it as possibly one of the things she was thinking of, but the context was that there may have been things that were actually fortuitous (still doesn't stop them being cool for how it did turn out). I think the comment in Dead Man's Party is just a bit of foreshadowing only because that was where it happened to go, rather than because it was planned. That is what I meant by it becoming seen as foreshadowing rather than being deliberately so.

    I know there were tensions with NB in the later seasons because of his unreliability/addiction problems, but I'm glad they managed to work around them and the character was kept. I find that Xander's comic developments are one of my absolute favourite things about S8-12 and S8 really gave me reason to see him very differently when I rewatched after reading those comics. He's probably the character I've changed my views on the most since my first watch and have greatly increased in my appreciation of.

  22. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Stoney For This Useful Post:

    flow (01-04-19),TriBel (01-04-19),vampmogs (01-04-19)

  23. #13
    Slayer Supporter vampmogs's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    12,567
    Thanks
    1,925
    Thanked 8,702 Times in 2,638 Posts

    Default

    I've never been under the impression that they toyed with killing Xander off because of NB's addiction issues. If anything, killing him off was likely to give him as an actor even more responsibility and screen time as Joss intended to use him as the face of The First for the remaining episodes. It would have been a weird situation where NB would've probably got better material as an actor if they'd killed off his character than if they hadn't
    Last edited by vampmogs; 01-04-19 at 01:08 AM.
    - "The earth is doomed" -


  24. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to vampmogs For This Useful Post:

    flow (01-04-19),SpuffyGlitz (01-04-19),Stoney (01-04-19)

  25. #14
    Scooby Gang bespangled's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    Tucson, AZ
    Posts
    725
    Thanks
    1,597
    Thanked 1,934 Times in 741 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by vampmogs View Post
    I've never been under the impression that they toyed with killing Xander off because of NB's addiction issues. If anything, killing him off was likely to give him as an actor even more responsibility and screen time as Joss intended to use him as the face of The First for the remaining episodes. It would have been a weird situation where NB would've probably got better material as an actor if they'd killed off his character than if they hadn't
    I was thinking the same thing - that the addiction issues may have actually saved Xander.

    I would have loved it if they killed him and then used him as the First. No Caleb - what a relief. And losing Xander would be the ultimate gut punch. That would have done so much to give the final season coherence and emotional resonance. The fact that Xander is part of the core three would have finally removed the plot armor of every character. They needed Willow, Buffy, Spike, and the maguffins. Killing Giles wouldn't have the same punch....damn

    My only bit to add is I did watch Joss talk about how much fun Spike was in that he had an idea of every journey each character would make - starting and ending point - from the beginning. So, for them, it was a matter of creating the path that would lead them to these places. Once Spike became a regular he had no idea what to do with him, and that was actually comparatively exciting.

    I imagine he had the same feelings for Faith once he decided not to kill her off. Her arc on Angel was brilliant, IMO.

    We could discuss the issue of CC's pregnancy and how that changed season 4 of Angel...
    Bottom line is, even if you see them coming, you're not ready for the big moments...The big moments are gonna come, you can't help that. It's what you do afterwards that counts. That's when you find out who you are.

  26. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to bespangled For This Useful Post:

    flow (01-04-19),SpuffyGlitz (01-04-19),Stoney (01-04-19),vampmogs (01-04-19)

  27. #15
    Slayer TimeTravellingBunny's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    5,760
    Thanks
    5,515
    Thanked 4,678 Times in 2,206 Posts

    Default

    I've only got the three everyone knows about: The Anointed One was supposed to last longer as a villain, but the kid kept growing up (funny how no one thought that was going to be a problem?), so they killed him off; Oz left much earlier than planned and his season 4 arc was crammed into a few episodes because Seth wanted to leave; and Maggie Walsh was supposed to be the Big Bad of season 4, but Lindsey Crouse wanted out, so they wrote her off and made Adam the Big Bad.

    Something I don't know but I wonder: what was the original plan for Angel? Joss said that he decided David could carry his own show after having seen his performance in I Only Have Eyes For You. What did he intend to do with Angel originally, before he gave him a spinoff? Was he supposed to die in the season 2 finale, or would he be kept on indefinitely, or written off at some other point?
    You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

  28. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to TimeTravellingBunny For This Useful Post:

    bespangled (01-04-19),flow (01-04-19),Stoney (01-04-19),vampmogs (01-04-19)

  29. #16
    Slayer Supporter vampmogs's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    12,567
    Thanks
    1,925
    Thanked 8,702 Times in 2,638 Posts

    Default

    bespangled, unfortunately I don't think that killing Xander off would've meant no Caleb. I think the original idea was that Caleb would kill Xander as oppose to just injure him so Caleb would've still had to have been introduced. However, with Xander as The First it's likely that he'd have taken centre stage in those remaining 4 episodes and that Caleb's screen time would've been reduced.

    I honestly don't know how I feel about killing off Xander. I agree that it was would have packed a real emotional punch (I'd have been absolutely devastated) and that it'd probably finally get The First to live up to it's potential but I also can't imagine Xander not being in the finale. I'm very torn on the idea. It's undeniable that it had a lot of story potential for the other characters but I'm also not entirely confident the writing would've lived up to it. There were a lot of missed opportunities around that time.

    TimeTravellingBunny, no idea about Angel. Originally Angel wasn't even meant to appear after the pilot but after the response of the women working in the Whedon's office, he decided he needed to keep Angel/DB around. I know that from late Season 1 Whedon had already planned for Angel to turn evil in Season 2 but little has been said about what they'd have done with him in Season 3 had the spinoff not happened. I think it was known from the very beginning that Buffy would sacrifice Angel at the end of the season so I guess it was a question as to whether not he'd stay permanently dead. Given that Bangel/Angel was immensely popular during this time and that Whedon kept both Spike and Faith around as a result of the audience loving them, I'm inclined to think Angel would've been brought back regardless.

    A few others that I can remember;

    - Spuffy wasn't supposed to last as long as it did in Season 6. It was meant to be a 1-2 episode affair
    - Darla was meant to stick around until the end of "Angel" Season 2. Julie Benz became unavailable which is why we got the Pylea arc.
    - Doyle was not meant to die in Season 1 despite what Whedon said at the time. Tim Minear has since admitted that Doyle was killed off because Glenn Quinn's substance abuse problems were having too much of a negative impact on his work and that Whedon tried to hide this for Glenn's sake.
    - Kate was not meant to leave AtS and was originally supposed to be in Justine's role with Holtz in Season 3. Elisabeth Rohm got a permanent gig with "Law & Order" so she left the show.
    - Cordy was still meant to come back evil in Season 4 but she wasn't meant to be possessed by Jasmine. The original plan was for her to come back to earth corrupted by her power/time as a Higher Being. There were meant to be a lot of action sequences between Angel VS Cordy and the idea was that Angel would have to kill Cordy to save the world as a sort of role reversal to "Becoming"
    - The Circle of the Blackthorn was a last minute idea after the network announced that AtS had been cancelled
    - Spike may not have been in "Angel" Season 6 if JM got his way. JM said that whilst filming the episode "Underneath" he was about to go into Whedon's office and demand to be let out of his contract because he was constantly feuding with producer Kelly Manners and couldn't stand to work with him anymore. JM said that just before he was going to go to Joss it was announced that the series was ending anyway
    - Oz had been planned to join the cast of "Angel" permanently in Season 6 or as a reoccurring character. He was meant to be a mentor to Nina.

    "Angel" had a LOT of backstage dramas/unexpected issues which messed with the show. Way, way more than "Buffy" did. I think that it contributed largely to, IMO, how disjointed and messy the show often felt.
    - "The earth is doomed" -


  30. #17
    Slayer TimeTravellingBunny's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    5,760
    Thanks
    5,515
    Thanked 4,678 Times in 2,206 Posts

    Default

    vampmogs, are you sure about that about Angel noz sticking around after the pilot? That sounds really unlikely. What would have been the point of introducing a mysterious love interest just to kill him off immediately ? And the reaction of the women including the casting director was the reason why DB was cast, according to the interviews with her I've read. He had almost no experience and his audition was bad, but she convinced Joss that he had "it", and after the other women had a similar reaction, Joss agreed to cast him. So, I would say they were obviously looking for someone who would be at least a recurring guest star love interest for all of season 1 - and someone who definitely had to be a heartthrob and appeal to the audience. If it was just one or two episodes, I doubt that Joss would have cared that much.
    You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

  31. The Following User Says Thank You to TimeTravellingBunny For This Useful Post:

    Priceless (01-04-19)

  32. #18
    Slayer Supporter vampmogs's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    12,567
    Thanks
    1,925
    Thanked 8,702 Times in 2,638 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TimeTravellingBunny View Post
    vampmogs, are you sure about that about Angel noz sticking around after the pilot? That sounds really unlikely. What would have been the point of introducing a mysterious love interest just to kill him off immediately?
    Yep positive. I've seen it mentioned several times. He was also originally not meant to be a vampire and his grand entrance was going to be swooping in on a motorbike. I honestly have no idea how early into the production of the show they changed their minds on this because it never made a great deal of sense to me either. I'd assume it was in-between shooting the pilot presentation for The WB (as Angel doesn't even make an appearance) and shooting "Welcome to the Hellmouth." But it has definitely been said on more than one occasion. I'll see if I can find some quotes.

    I'd assume by "Welcome to the Hellmouth"/"The Harvest" they knew he'd be sticking around past those two episodes but pre-production that was the original plan. That said, I do think it's telling that DB was in just a guest star role for the entirety of Season 1 and wasn't added to the main credits until Season 2. I think they felt their way as they went with him and it wasn't a guarantee he was meant to stick around as a character.
    - "The earth is doomed" -


  33. The Following User Says Thank You to vampmogs For This Useful Post:

    SpuffyGlitz (01-04-19)

  34. #19
    Bronze Party-Goer
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Posts
    158
    Thanks
    181
    Thanked 211 Times in 97 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by vampmogs View Post
    bespangled, unfortunately I don't think that killing Xander off would've meant no Caleb. I think the original idea was that Caleb would kill Xander as oppose to just injure him so Caleb would've still had to have been introduced. However, with Xander as The First it's likely that he'd have taken centre stage in those remaining 4 episodes and that Caleb's screen time would've been reduced.

    I honestly don't know how I feel about killing off Xander. I agree that it was would have packed a real emotional punch (I'd have been absolutely devastated) and that it'd probably finally get The First to live up to it's potential but I also can't imagine Xander not being in the finale. I'm very torn on the idea. It's undeniable that it had a lot of story potential for the other characters but I'm also not entirely confident the writing would've lived up to it. There were a lot of missed opportunities around that time.

    TimeTravellingBunny, no idea about Angel. Originally Angel wasn't even meant to appear after the pilot but after the response of the women working in the Whedon's office, he decided he needed to keep Angel/DB around. I know that from late Season 1 Whedon had already planned for Angel to turn evil in Season 2 but little has been said about what they'd have done with him in Season 3 had the spinoff not happened. I think it was known from the very beginning that Buffy would sacrifice Angel at the end of the season so I guess it was a question as to whether not he'd stay permanently dead. Given that Bangel/Angel was immensely popular during this time and that Whedon kept both Spike and Faith around as a result of the audience loving them, I'm inclined to think Angel would've been brought back regardless.

    A few others that I can remember;

    - Spuffy wasn't supposed to last as long as it did in Season 6. It was meant to be a 1-2 episode affair
    - Darla was meant to stick around until the end of "Angel" Season 2. Julie Benz became unavailable which is why we got the Pylea arc.
    - Doyle was not meant to die in Season 1 despite what Whedon said at the time. Tim Minear has since admitted that Doyle was killed off because Glenn Quinn's substance abuse problems were having too much of a negative impact on his work and that Whedon tried to hide this for Glenn's sake.
    - Kate was not meant to leave AtS and was originally supposed to be in Justine's role with Holtz in Season 3. Elisabeth Rohm got a permanent gig with "Law & Order" so she left the show.
    - Cordy was still meant to come back evil in Season 4 but she wasn't meant to be possessed by Jasmine. The original plan was for her to come back to earth corrupted by her power/time as a Higher Being. There were meant to be a lot of action sequences between Angel VS Cordy and the idea was that Angel would have to kill Cordy to save the world as a sort of role reversal to "Becoming"
    - The Circle of the Blackthorn was a last minute idea after the network announced that AtS had been cancelled
    - Spike may not have been in "Angel" Season 6 if JM got his way. JM said that whilst filming the episode "Underneath" he was about to go into Whedon's office and demand to be let out of his contract because he was constantly feuding with producer Kelly Manners and couldn't stand to work with him anymore. JM said that just before he was going to go to Joss it was announced that the series was ending anyway
    - Oz had been planned to join the cast of "Angel" permanently in Season 6 or as a reoccurring character. He was meant to be a mentor to Nina.

    "Angel" had a LOT of backstage dramas/unexpected issues which messed with the show. Way, way more than "Buffy" did. I think that it contributed largely to, IMO, how disjointed and messy the show often felt.

    The James Marsters leaving is new. I remember a convention way back he did with Charisma and he mocked a producer "don't give a hoot just shoot shoot shoot".
    Charisma said thats Kelly and JM says quickly "don't say his name".
    What I don't know though is what the feud was actually about ?

    I also heard talk of Andrew becoming a permanent cast member in Angel S6. I'm kind if glad he wasn't.

    Dawn was supposed to be a younger character but MT got the part. But she was 14 so they changed her age. It's why in the early episodes she's like a 11 yr old rather than a 14 yr old.

    Also Jenny Calendar was killed off due to the actress wanting out of the show due to her religious beliefs.
    Last edited by BtVS fan; 01-04-19 at 06:58 AM.

  35. #20
    Slayer Supporter vampmogs's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    12,567
    Thanks
    1,925
    Thanked 8,702 Times in 2,638 Posts

    Default

    It sounded like it was just a clash of personalities. JM said he didn't like Kelly's attitude on set and I'm pretty sure Kelly had a reputation for being a hard taskmaster. Kelly had been with the series for years so everyone else seemed pretty used to it but it was obviously different to what JM had experienced on "Buffy."

    From what I recall, Jenny wasn't killed off because of Robia LaMorte's religious beliefs. The way I heard it she became a born again christian sometime between Season 2-3 and was very unhappy to be playing The First in "Amends" which she thought was the show's equivalent of the devil. After that she refused to make any future appearances.

    Speaking of Jenny's death though, I did hear that originally Whedon intended to have Angelus kill Oz instead. Or that at the very least he was seriously tossing up between them.

    Quote Originally Posted by BtVS fan View Post
    Dawn was supposed to be a younger character but MT got the part. But she was 14 so they changed her age. It's why in the early episodes she's like a 11 yr old rather than a 14 yr old.
    Yep. She was also originally going to have powers as well. They toyed with the idea of her having telekinetic powers or having the power to speak to the dead.
    Last edited by vampmogs; 01-04-19 at 07:04 AM.
    - "The earth is doomed" -


  36. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to vampmogs For This Useful Post:

    BtVS fan (01-04-19),SpuffyGlitz (01-04-19)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •