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Thread: Defend your favorite characters worst moments

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    Moderator Sosa lola's Avatar
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    Default Defend your favorite characters worst moments

    What's the worst moment of your favorite character, and can you defend that moment?


    My favorite character is Xander, duh, and his worst episodes are three in my book: Dead Man's Party, Revelation and Entropy.


    If I had to choose the worst of the three, I think it's Entropy. At least Xander was an irrational 17-year-old teenager in Dead Man's Party and Revelation and still not mature enough to deal with anger and trauma sensibly.

    Entropy, however, was an episode where Xander was 21 years old, older and more mature than he used to be. Also, he went way, way, way too far, and the whole mess of the episode was technically his fault.

    Now, the defending: Xander was heading down a dark road of depression after dealing with a roller coaster of emotional abuse in Hell's Bells. He had made a decision that he thought would save him and Anya from a definite horrible future. He never said he didn't want Anya. He didnt leave Anya because of her past or anything related to her. It was me I was hating. He left because he believed hed become a monster.


    He still loved Anya and wanted her. He just didn't know how. What he knew for sure was that his life with Anya was much simpler and happier before he asked her to marry him.


    He is aware that he had hurt Anya deeply, and knows he deserves all the severe punishments Anya yelled at him (oblivious to the fact that she was trying to curse him). It's not far-fetched to assume that Anya only slept with Spike to get back at him because she had literally spent the entire episode wishing him all sorts of horrible penalties. He knows that she wants him to suffer, but since she can't, she decided to hit him where it really hurts: sleeping with the guy he hates the most.

    Xander was unaware how much like his father he had become in Entropy: the drinking, the slut-shaming, the beating and almost murdering someone who couldn't fight back.

    I really wish that the end of the episode had Xander's realization of how much he'd turned into his father - the reason why he left Anya at the altar - and for it to haunt him for the rest of the season. He'd turned himself into the man he feared by leaving her at the altar. Perhaps if he'd married her, he would have avoided that.

    I know this came out more like analyzing Xander's state of mind than defending him. I just don't think I can defend him in this episode.
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    Good defence Sosa lola. Personally I think Xander is understandable in Entropy (my favourite ep of that season) and doesn't really need defending. Every character is pretty perfectly their character in Entropy and completely understandable and even the wrong they do is forgivable because it comes from an authentic place.

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    Willow trying to end the world = bad. Dark Willow = awesome.

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    Spike does a lot of things that are awful unsouled but his emotional/moral limitations can be understood to be key factors in these. Why he murders, rapes, cheats, tortures, steals without regard, why he fails to see the cruelty in some of what he says to Buffy in S6. The contexts in varying situations add layers to some of them too, but this fundamentally is a key issue throughout his presoul years and I think is understood to be.

    Once souled I think LMPTM is often seen as one of Spike's worst moments for how he treats Robin and also that he keeps the coat. It's something that I've posted on before and I do think Spike is too callous towards Robin and takes it too far after he regains control. Although I think his anger is understandable and I can see why he doesn't want to open himself up to Robin after he has just tried to kill him, the maliciousness in what he says to Robin is too much. On the other side Robin openly acknowledged Spike wasn't the monster who had killed his mum any longer, but still deliberately took away Spike's control by triggering him. Whilst I can understand how difficult it would feel to let go the pain that he feels towards Spike, particularly when he is brazenly wearing his mum's coat still, he is still choosing to try and murder him for vengeance. I find both of their responses and feelings are understandable, and neither of them come out of the confrontation smelling of roses.

    Regarding the coat, it is really significant I feel that Spike had rejected wearing it at first when souled and clearly wanted to turn away from the connections it held. I think that matters a lot in coming to accept his choice to wear it again. He didn't relish the fight any more souled and the urge for violence is connected to the demon within that is suppressed now by the soul but is still a part of him. His wish to turn away from that, to suppress it in all the ways he can, is understandable. He is struggling with who he was unsouled as well as that part still being within him, and that is what the coat represents to him. But then there was an immediacy of need, a pressure established on him in Get It Done which directly showed Spike's choice to go and get the coat was specifically about giving himself that connection again for purpose. He was being told he wasn't as effective as needed in the fight and the coat was what he used to quickly fix that. So LMPTM then gives what I'm sure is an intentional mirroring in Spike connecting to that side of himself through wearing the coat again, having to overrule who he is souled, and Robin's desire to draw the monster out too in openly admitting he was overruling who Spike is now by using the trigger. Importantly, in continuation to this, there is also then the very deliberate framing of Spike's choice to wear the coat and to continue to keep wearing it despite learning who Robin is, against Buffy's and Nikki's message that it is the mission that matters too. Spike is doing what he needs to do, despite his own wishes to not heighten that connection within him to who he was, by putting his worth to the fight before his wants for himself souled.

    Whilst it is frustrating for sure that he finds this tactic necessary, image is a consistent character theme for Spike and his insecurities are often exposed this way. That he has a need for props to create a persona and allow himself to connect with something he feels fundamentally separate to now (and importantly wants to feel separate from as much as that separation exists because of dealing with the remaining demonic urges and rush connected to the memories too) is a result of a personal weakness, but it is a consistent character trait and it is still about him setting aside other considerations, both his own and Robin's, but for the greater good.

    It is also a very complicated adjustment he is trying to go through at this point. He is only just souled and beginning to learn how to deal with having the memories of what he did, the memory of the rush and still having some of the demonic drives for blood and violence, alongside the revulsion, disgust and pain of it that comes with the emotional/moral depth he feels towards that side within him and which deepens his initial wish for and need to firmly feel the separation. I very much understand why some fans don't like Spike wearing it and continuing to wear it, but I have to agree to disagree because I think the show adequately covers how wearing the coat is a choice that goes against what Spike wants and it explains why he does it anyway. In particular for me, framing it against Nikki's choice to put the mission first really underlines that this is about him choosing to take up the mantle which can now be what the coat represents too. That he's putting himself fully, emotionally and physically, on the line for the mission and this is what he then unequivocally does at the season end.

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    Buffy:

    There are three moments I regard as Buffy`s worst moments. I don`t think she ever does anything else I really hate or despise except for those three moments. We have discussed one of them recently in the homicide thread and I know that a lot of you here don`t regard it as a low point for her at all. I am - of course - talking about her attempt to kill Faith and feed her blood to Angel. What can I say to defend that? Actually just one thing - I believe it was a turning point for her. I believe she realized that she did not fail but was spared. And she never ever did something remotely monstrous as that again.

    The second worst moment for Buffy was beating up Spike in the alley behind the police station. I can`t defend it but I can excuse it. Buffy was at a very low point herself. She had to carry more than she could endure. And once again this incident was - I think - a turning point for her. Although she did continue her sexual relationship with Spike for a little while longer I do believe that she had realized from this moment on how she was using him and how it affected her as a Person in a negative way. The decision to break up with him in AYW goes back to the alley scene in DT, imho.

    The third moment was the same moment Sosa Lola named for Xander and it`s the one moment where I can`t defend her at all. Listening to Xander while he was verbally abusing Anya fr having had sex with Spike and not uttering a single word, was just unbelieveable weak, low and mean. She didn`t have to come clear about her and Spike. There was no need to say "I did the same" (like Spike finally did). But she could and should have said something. At least "Shut up, Xander". To say nothing and listen to him insulting Anya was unbearable. I can`t defend that at all.

    Sosa Lola:
    It's not far-fetched to assume that Anya only slept with Spike to get back at him because she had literally spent the entire episode wishing him all sorts of horrible penalties.
    I agree that Anya was trying to curse him for real, but I don`t think having sex with Spike was about vengeance. They were both seriously drunk when they started to make out and they had gotten drunk together because they were both heartbroken. Anya said very clear, that sex with Spike was nothing but solace and I believe her. She did not know that the Trio had a hidden camera in the Magic Box nor did she know Willow had hacked their computers. There was no way she could know Xander would find out about her and Spike.

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    Quote Originally Posted by flow View Post
    Sosa Lola:

    I agree that Anya was trying to curse him for real, but I don`t think having sex with Spike was about vengeance. They were both seriously drunk when they started to make out and they had gotten drunk together because they were both heartbroken. Anya said very clear, that sex with Spike was nothing but solace and I believe her. She did not know that the Trio had a hidden camera in the Magic Box nor did she know Willow had hacked their computers. There was no way she could know Xander would find out about her and Spike.

    flow
    I know that, flow. I was talking from the POV of Xander. Not mine. A pissed off Xander wasn't in the right mind to be reasonable. He assumed she was doing it to hurt him. And I can understand why he'd assume that. He must have thought: Perhaps Anya didn't know about the camera, but he was sure she'd throw it in his face later for revenge. After all, ever since she came back all she did was wish him hell and wanting him punished.
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    All said regarding writers, producers, actors, directors, viewers, readers, etc. are what I remember, my opinions, etc.




    The WORST moments of the characters aren't actually very defensible.

    For all the main characters still alive after BtVS 8.39 and who knew who was Twilight: keeping that person alive after BtVS 8.39 isn't defensible. Outside of that:




    DRUSILLA KEEBLE


    * She was going to kill Buffy in "Crush" (B 5.14) even though she knew Spike was in love with Buffy. Spike never tried to kill Angel. Spike however did just threaten to kill both Buffy and her.




    WILLIAM PRATT aka WILLIAM THE BLOODY aka SPIKE


    * In "Lovers Walk" (B 3.08), he was going to give Angel leprosy. Spike knew Drusilla broke up with Spike because of Spike's feelings and regard for Buffy, but he decides to place all the blame on Angel and secondarily on Buffy.


    * The attempted rape of Buffy in "Seeing Red" (B 6.19) still makes very little sense. He somehow becomes overcome with lust or whatever for the physically and emotionally hurt Buffy in that Bathroom Scene. Even though he'd been drinking, he clearly wasn't actually drunk. He somehow didn't know he was trying to rape Buffy until after she kicked him into the bathroom wall.

    There's no good CANON defense for the attempted rape.


    * Spike's not returning to Buffy until
    Spoiler:
    BtVS 8.33 and then leaving her again for months at a time.
    Spike knew from "Chosen" (B 7.22) just how much Buffy was in love with Spike. Yet he stayed in Los Angeles. He flirted with Fred. He had sex with Harmony. He probably had sex with others. If the IDW stuff is canon...

    Post-Season 9 cannot be canon, but post-BtVS 9.25 is when Buffy/Spike finally happens again. Which is possibly around 10 years after "Chosen" (B 7.22) and around 7 years or whatever after post-BtVS 8.39 (if Buffy/Spike happened after BtVS 8.39).

    Spike wanted Buffy to 'romantically' love him and only him, but he knew from BtVS S6 and after that she preferred him over Angel. And he 'shared' Drusilla with Angel for probably 18 years.

    In addition, Spike wasn't celibate from "Chosen" (B 7.22) to
    Spoiler:
    BtVS 8.33.



    * If the IDW stuff is canon:
    Spoiler:
    Spike doesn't tell Buffy he knows he'll be alive in the time of flying cars. Buffy's getting older (and looking older) while Spike assumes he'll have Spider and Co. back. And we don't know if Beck has longevity. And Spike can always be with Drusilla again.




    BUFFY ANNE SUMMERS


    * Buffy clearly had Alexander (aka Xander) Lavelle Harris as her 'last resort backup plan'. Her jealousy and sadness over
    Spoiler:
    Xander/Dawn in BtVS S8 is simply because Xander preferred someone over Buffy--even if he only preferred Dawn because he reasoned Buffy wasn't actually into him.



    * Buffy only chose Riley Finn over Spike because of how Spike treated her during the My Will Be Done Spell ("Something Blue" (B 4.09)). Riley wasn't "Rebound Guy". He was "putting off" and/or "avoiding" feelings for Spike.

    Then Buffy in "As You Were" (B 6.15) uses Riley's ending speech to her as an excuse to 'break up' with Spike even though she considered she was still in a relationship with Spike.

    Buffy in "Entropy" (B 6.18) acts as if Spike cheated on her even though she told him to "move on".

    If you consider Spike was sleeping around in BtVS S7 before "Sleeper" (B 7.08) and if you consider Buffy considers Spike tells her he'd been sleeping around... Buffy becomes angered at Spike for sleeping around even though she'd mostly been avoiding him after "Beneath You" (B 7.02).


    * Buffy in BtVS S3 continues to date Scott Hope after "Faith, Hope, and Trick" (B 3.03). Almost nothing suggests Buffy wouldn't continue dating Scott and wouldn't eventually have sex with Scott if Scott hadn't broken up with her. Buffy was clearly still into Angel.




    WILLOW ROSENBERG


    * Trying to
    Spoiler:
    keep the Seed intact
    is indefensible.


    * I more blame Giles for Willow's trying to end the world in "Grave" (B 6.22) than I blame Willow.
    Last edited by MikeB; 26-03-19 at 05:56 PM. Reason: I had put incorrect episode number for "Seeing Red"

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    But why? Aren't those worst moments a part of reason why those characters are so compelling? And defend from whom, exactly? You know what? OK, I'll just play along.

    So Willow kinda raped Tara. She's a TEENAGE LESBIAN RAPIST (remember, Willow's a year younger than Buffy and Xander, she's still a teenager around season 5/6) which is so over the top it just becomes awesome. I can't even get angry about it. Like, how many TEENAGE LESBIAN RAPISTS are there on the television anyway, I mean, outside of hentai? I can just imagine Whedon thinking Oh-kay, I have this groundbreaking, iconic character but how can I give her even more oomph? Oh right, rape, what else? That's why Willow is the g.o.a.t. - you can't top that.

    As to Buffy - Buffy lies A LOT. She lies to the people that really, really love her in situations where it's really, really unnecessary. I get that the show tries to explain it, with the whole superiority/inferiority complex thing but I also think that she lies because it's easier than dealing. And you know what? Buffy's life is incredibly shitty, if she needs to not deal from time to time, that's fine, whatever, I still love her.

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    Uh, no. Willow is not a year younger than Buffy and Xander. She's the same age as them. They were always depicted as in the same class in the high school years, and neither the show nor the comics ever, EVER, said that Willow had ever skipped a year. If anything, Xander's yellow crayon speech to her in Grave makes it clear that they entered kindergarten in the same year. If they were in the same kindergarten class, and graduated high school in the same class, then Willow is approximately the same age as Buffy and Xander. Which means that in seasons 5 and 6, Willow turned 20 and 21, and wasn't still a teenager.

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    The show's official website from back in the day says that Willow was born in 1982. Buffy was born in 1981. That makes Willow a year younger than Buffy, no?
    Last edited by a thing of evil; 27-03-19 at 11:55 AM.

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    Slayer Supporter vampmogs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by a thing of evil View Post
    The show's official website from back in the day says that Willow was born in 1982. Buffy was born in 1981. That makes Willow a year younger than Buffy, no?
    Well, not necessarily. If I was born in Dec 1982 and you were born in January 1983 would that make me a year older than you or just a month older than you? Nevertheless, each to their own, but I wouldn't put much stock in what some WB/UPN intern likely had to write on the show's website if it's not stated within the scripts of the actual show. It's never stated in the TV series that Willow is a year younger than Buffy and Xander.


    If I had to defend Buffy for anything it would be running away in "Becoming" or lying about Angel's return in "Beauty and the Beasts." I find both completely understandable and sympathetic under the circumstances (the former especially) and I would readily defend her against those who criticised her.

    In regards to "Becoming", Buffy had went through some really traumatic events. She'd lost Kendra, got 'kicked out' of home, been expelled from school, was on the run from the police, believed Xander and Willow were both oblivious to how difficult this was for her ("kick his ass"), and then had to kill Angel after his soul was restored. That's all seriously, seriously traumatic sh*t and that's to cap off a year of serious heartbreak and trauma. If Buffy needed to run away to come to terms with everything and deal with that then, IMO, that's understandable and ok. I understand why her friends and parental figures were hurt and worried for her but under the circumstances I find it completely fair that Buffy prioritised her own emotional well-being first. She'd already given up so much in the service of the world that she deserves to be a little selfish. And I'm not remotely swayed by the criticism of her for "abandoning her post" in Sunnydale. Leaving aside the fact that it was apparently perfectly ok for Buffy to vacate Sunnydale in the summer between S1-S2 when she was visiting her father, I'm also not about to hold Buffy accountable for taking time off to deal with her grief/trauma after the events of Season 2 when it was Buffy's duties that caused her so much pain in the first place. I will not chastise Buffy for needing a break from an incredibly unjust calling to emotionally process the fallout from said calling. It's the very least she deserves.

    As for "Beauty and the Beasts", I've always found it incredibly heartbreaking and moving when Buffy breaks down in front of Platt about how she's scared and unsure what to do with Angel. When she says that Willow and Giles "would freak... or they'd do something" that really tugs at my heartstrings every time without fail. It's completely understandable to me that Buffy would feel immense guilt over having to send Angel to hell and that now faced with his return her first instinct is to chain him up and hide him whilst she figures out what she'll need to do. IMO it's not at all unfair for Buffy to believe that Giles or Willow may react badly to the news of Angel's return - and it would be understandable if they did - and that Buffy would fear they'd push her towards killing Angel or even take matters into their own hands before Buffy is ready to make that call for herself. I'm really sympathetic to why Buffy wanted to put the pause on that by hiding Angel whilst she comes to terms with what has happened (which would be extremely shocking) and trying to come to emotionally prepare herself for what needs to happen next. Admittedly, throughout the course of the next couple of episodes Buffy's deceit becomes less sympathetic (especially in "Band Candy") but her initial lying/secrecy in "Beauty and the Beasts" is totally rationale and excusable, IMO. I'd have probably done the exact same thing.
    Last edited by vampmogs; 27-03-19 at 01:04 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by a thing of evil View Post
    The show's official website from back in the day says that Willow was born in 1982. Buffy was born in 1981. That makes Willow a year younger than Buffy, no?

    They got Tara's birthday wrong. According to her tombstone, Tara was born in the 16th of October 1980.
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    Didn't Buffy's birthday change? From the Buffy Wiki for I Robot, You Jane . . .

    In consecutive scenes, Buffy’s birth date is shown on computer screens presumably showing school records. Neither date — 5/6/79 or 10/24/80 — is correct. Buffy was born in 1981 and, as a "Capricorn on the cusp of Aquarius" (cf. "Doomed"), her birthday must be between January 17 and 20 (with Buffy’s birthday episodes accordingly airing in January). However, these false dates might have been the work of Moloch. Joss Whedon eventually decreed that her birthday was January 19.

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    Well, not necessarily. If I was born in Dec 1982 and you were born in January 1983 would that make me a year older than you or just a month older than you?
    Buffy was born in January - she's at least 11 months and ~10 days older than Willow.

    Nevertheless, each to their own, but I wouldn't put much stock in what some WB/UPN intern likely had to write on the show's website if it's not stated within the scripts of the actual show. It's never stated in the TV series that Willow is a year younger than Buffy and Xander.
    Yeah, I guess, but on the other hand a lot of stuff that we accept is never stated in the TV series. For example, Faith's last name is never mentioned in the TV show as well and we still call her Faith Lehane.

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    @vampmogs: I think it’s about defending her for whatever you think to be her worst moment. It’s not about what others criticize her for. If it is easily understandable, it does not sound as if you think she was behaving outright horrible or being at a low point. Are there any moments you really disliked her during the show? Which were they?

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    This is hard because sometimes favourite characters do stuff that's kind of...indefensible. I'm going to try and defend isolated incidents that I personally consider low points for some of my favourite characters - don't know if they're considered "worst" moments by others but they bothered me so here goes:

    Buffy: I can't think of any particularly "low" points for Buffy simply because I can make sense of all her actions when I look at the bigger picture. I don't dislike S7's "general" Buffy or S6's depressed Buffy either and can make sense of her actions, so things that make her seem unpopular or affect interpersonal relationships for a while make sense given her journey as a hero and her personal struggles. I love her bravery and standalone spirit through all the seasons. I think flow did a great job with some of her "low" moments already. So I'm going to defend a somewhat more trivial point in S4.

    "Something Blue" is for the most part played for comic affect, but underlying it is Willow's deep sense of sadness and isolation after Oz's departure. She wears her heart on her sleeve about her continuing heartbreak when she talks to Buffy, and Buffy is supportive and tells her that it will keep getting better each day. Buffy is a great best friend to Willow, evidenced especially in Wild at Heart. But in Something Blue, when a moping Willow walks up to Buffy on her picnic date with Riley, Riley seems sympathetic but Buffy appears ticked off at Willow's interruption and then later judgemental over her drinking. So she's both holding her up to a standard she's expecting as a friend, but also seemingly unsympathetic to Willow's very human struggle (to be fair, Buffy's not the only one in the episode who comes off this way.) But she doesn't seem to have much patience for Willow's mopey-ness and while in part this may be understandable if it's *all* Willow's been doing, it is a somewhat low moment for her as a friend (just as her later lack of enthusiasm for Tara's birthday party in S5's Family is).

    I can only defend it this way: Willow's devastation is taking up a lot of time because it all happened so fast, out of the blue - whereas Buffy's relationship with Angel underwent a series of ups and downs, carrying heavy emotional baggage and the big moments carried a lot of trauma. The way Willow finds out about Oz's cheating, his admission of love, then his sudden departure - something that was his decision - leaves Willow completely unprepared, and that's something Buffy may not have understood or processed as a different kind of heartbreak from what she experienced herself - she can probably identify with heartbreak, but not understand the reason Willow cannot do anything besides drown in the sorrow of it. Buffy can identify with action - whether even the "running away" kind, or keeping sorrow hidden. To air painful feelings by talking about them in the open is not something Buffy is inclined to do personally when she faces trauma herself, mostly out of the fear of making it worse. So I think Willow's need to be listened to, to connect with her friend, is something Buffy doesn't fully grasp the importance of - she might believe that Willow's just dragging things out for herself (and those around her.) It's also before Buffy matures through personal experience in S5 (given Riley's sudden departure) and S6 when she makes an attempt to talk to Willow and connect with her over what she sees as their mutual "addictions", so I cut her some slack for her reaction to Willow here.

    Spike: I'm going to try and defend an isolated moment in S5 (soulless Spike has a long list of terrible acts he's committed, Stoney has already made a brilliant post about that.) I'm defending a relatively more trivial thing, but I still found it a low point for Spike's character personally.

    So, in "Checkpoint", Buffy's having a really bad day. She just got yelled at by a professor for making a point about Rasputin. Glory looms large, she's been warned that the Watchers' Council are expected any day...she's dealing with a lot. She's out fighting a vampire and using it to blow off steam. Spike tries to swoop in and "help" her just when she's working off her anger at the vamp. She doesn't know about his feelings for her and lashes out, telling him she doesn't need his help, she "never" needs him. Spike is devastated at this and childishly retaliates by reaching for every low-down, insulting thing he can hurl at her: she "can't keep a man", she's too aloof or too clingy to hold a guy's interest, her beauty is fading, or maybe she just "doesn't hold their interest" and that's why they all "run off" and leave. Now, this is clearly stuff Spike is making up in the hopes that he'll hit at some inner insecurity of Buffy's (he's reaching for just about everything he can think of at this point.) We know he doesn't believe any of it himself, he even had a conversation with Riley over who was the luckier guy - Riley for being in a relationship with her, despite not feeling loved in return, or Spike who loves her from afar. He knows why Riley left -- it had nothing to do with being "bored" by Buffy. But Spike is actively trying to make Buffy feel insecure about herself so that she'll be vulnerable enough seek him out. As he tells Lydia later, "Sooner or later she'll be cryin' on my shoulder, mark my words."

    So anyway, I consider this an instance of Spike's self-interest/ manipulation when soulless - he's not considering the effect of his manipulation on Buffy's well being or happiness, but solely saying these things to cause her to depend on him so that she'll let him in. It's a somewhat stronger attempt than his earlier playful manipulation of Xander and Willow's insecurities to feel better about himself in S4 (when he mockingly tells Willow and Xander they're still the same "losers" they were in high school, only Buffy's too much of a "softy" to let them know it...or words to that effect.) It's an early precursor to his telling Buffy in S6 that she came back "wrong" despite how that would affect her, so that he can steer her to be with him in "his world". But I can still defend this moment in S5 because, apart from the fact that he's soulless and cannot fully grasp the nature of selfless love, as he does later, he still chooses to do his best to help Buffy when she asks him to protect Dawn and Joyce, and there are many other instances/ actions from him in S5 that do actually count as selfless (such as his protection of Dawn in Intervention without expecting anything for it from Buffy.) And again, part of his manipulation in Checkpoint also stems from a self-protective mechanism. When soulless, it's deliberately hurtful, but it's also a character trait of self-protection that endures and the intention isn't just to inflict hurt as much as to protect himself from getting hurt (in S7's End of Days, he initially downplays the value of their night together in "Touched", not to hurt Buffy but to protect himself from being hurt in case it meant less to her.) So part of it seems to be a self-defence character trait that endures even when souled, only he doesn't use it to inflict hurt the way he did when soulless.

    I have some thoughts/ defences for some of Willow's actions in S6, so will probably add that later.
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    Quote Originally Posted by flow View Post
    @vampmogs: I think its about defending her for whatever you think to be her worst moment. Its not about what others criticize her for. If it is easily understandable, it does not sound as if you think she was behaving outright horrible or being at a low point. Are there any moments you really disliked her during the show? Which were they?
    To be honest, there's very few moments where I disliked Buffy throughout the show but when I do they are very fleeting moments. If I had to pick they'd be;

    1) Buffy's horrible and nasty treatment towards Anya in "Flooded" when Anya is trying to come up with solutions to bring in money ("That's an idea... you would have")
    2) Buffy's "You've sent away the one person who's been watching my back" in "Empty Places" after 7 years of loyalty and sacrifice from her friends - including Xander meanwhile sitting in the hospital one eye short after following her into battle
    3) I agree with Spuffyglitz about Buffy's attitude towards Willow in "Something Blue." It's far from compassionate and a far cry from the emotional support Willow consistently showed Buffy throughout the Angelus saga/Angel leaving her/Parker using her etc.
    4) Buffy's rudeness towards both Willow and Dawn in "Older and Far Away" when they give her, her gifts. Buffy doesn't even pretend to like Willow's back massager (and Willow's disappointment and hurt is clearly visible on her face) and the way Buffy tosses Dawn's jacket aside for the weapon's chest is really poor. She looks really unappreciative in that scene and I'm big on appreciating people's gifts regardless of whether you actually like them or not (it's the thought that counts) so I'm always disappointed in her in this scene.

    I don't feel particularly inclined to defend them because I feel strongly that she's in the wrong throughout all these moments. But, if I had to;

    1) Buffy's treatment of Anya: In the grand scheme of things Buffy is obviously still dealing with the trauma of being resurrected and finding out she's broke is just another nail in the coffin for Buffy's happiness. She wouldn't normally be so nasty towards Anya if she had been better-adjusted and in a better frame of mind.

    2) Buffy telling Giles that Spike "is the only one watching her back": Buffy feels the judgement and of the Potentials for want happened at the vineyard and is having trouble dealing with the fallout. She's also talking to Giles who recently did wrong her pretty substantially ("LMPTM") so this feeling of disloyalty and betrayal would be at the forefront when she's talking with him.

    3) Buffy's attitude towards Willow in "Something Blue": Eh, this one is hard. I guess my main defence would be that when Buffy says "we're all sick of (Willow's mood)" she's currently under a spell and whilst the spell shouldn't have any real impact on how she feels about Willow it does seem to be making her a little loopy (she acts quite ditzy throughout the episode). Furthermore, later in the episode the spell makes her so totally consumed in Spike that she ignores her friend's cries for help when the demons attack. So it's possible that the spell and Buffy's fixation on Spike was numbing her empathy for anyone else.

    4) Buffy's rudeness towards Willow and Dawn: Whilst Buffy does seem unimpressed and sceptical of Willow's present regardless, it's the look that Spike gives her that makes Buffy uncomfortable and quickly move on from Willow's present really abruptly. Since Willow isn't aware of what's going on between Buffy/Spike it comes across as Buffy being more rude and unimpressed than Buffy would've intended to be. And whilst there isn't the same excuse for treatment of Dawn I guess my only real defence would be that Xander and Anya's present was really cool and thoughtful.

    Meh. I imagine my defences are pretty half-assed and unconvincing. It's hard to muster up much of a defence when I have little interest in defending her behaviour here.
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    vampmogs
    Meh. I imagine my defences are pretty half-assed and unconvincing. It's hard to muster up much of a defence when I have little interest in defending her behaviour here.
    Hey, that`s what makes it so challenging! Otherwise it would be too easy to accomplish.

    I like your defend No. 2. I`ve never made the connection between Giles`betrayal and Buffy`s line. I agree that her line is neither understandable nor defendable in regard to Willow and Xander. The only thing that makes it less cruel (although does not excuse it), is that they luckily did not hear it.

    As for No.4 - Buffy seems genuinely surprised and happy about Dawn`s present at first. She is only distracted because Xander and Anya bring in the weapons chest. Maybe they should have waited a sec. And - well - I would find it very hard to look happy if a close friend of mine gave me a back massager as a birthday present

    But I would try.

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    Quote Originally Posted by flow View Post
    vampmogs
    The only thing that makes it less cruel (although does not excuse it), is that they luckily did not hear it.
    Unfortunately, they will learn about it from Giles.

    GILES
    But didn't you just tell me today
    that you don't feel like you can
    trust us? Maybe there's something
    going on that we need to address.

    Now it's Willow and Xander's turn to look hurt.
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    Not nice Giles! You don`t go and tell, didn`t your mommy teach you that?

    flow

    ETA

    I`ve been thinking about this and I am wondering if "I don`t feel as if I can trust you" is really the same as "I don`t feel as if you are watching my back". The latter means to not actively protect someone. The first means to (possibly) go against someone. So, did Giles make Buffy`s words sound worse than they already were? And did he do it on purpose or did he just slip? ? And did that play a role in the mutiny in Empty Places?

    flow
    Last edited by flow; 31-03-19 at 07:44 PM.
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