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Thread: Xander/Faith?

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    Default Xander/Faith?

    Iíve never seen them paired up in the fandom, and obviously it ended before it really began in canon, but I think there was some untapped potential in Xander/Faith. They have a lot of similiarities in terms of socioeconomic status, family life, and sexual bravado. Iím not sure that anyoneís endgame-ready in S3, but I do feel like these two couldíve learned at least learned a lot about themselves from one another. Anyone else?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ghoststar View Post
    I’ve never seen them paired up in the fandom, and obviously it ended before it really began in canon, but I think there was some untapped potential in Xander/Faith. They have a lot of similiarities in terms of socioeconomic status, family life, and sexual bravado. I’m not sure that anyone’s endgame-ready in S3, but I do feel like these two could’ve learned at least learned a lot about themselves from one another. Anyone else?
    Nobody will ever convince me that this shouldn't have been the play in the late stages of Season 7 and not Robin. It is creatively superior in just every possible way. I wouldn't have compromised Faith's villain turn at all in S3 for it... although I'd have been down for Xander having been stuck in the middle of it and conflicted, would have made a much, much stronger inversion of Buffy and Xander's S2 friction over Angel than a one-off four years later did.

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    KingofCretins I agree that a S7 arc between Faith and Xander could’ve been good TV, but only if the writers had either a) kept it in mind through the middle seasons—just something like mentioning that Xander sends Faith Christmas cards in prison would’ve helped— or b) had Xander go to L.A. with Willow in S7. Faith and Xander’s possible significance to one another has diminished to basically nothing by the time “Dirty Girls” rolls around. Even the references to X/F that do exist serve to undercut any emotional connection between them— Anya appears to be more concerned than Xander is, and she’s never even met Faith before.

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    I don't feel that they necessarily had to establish that there was any contact between Xander/Faith in the middle seasons in order to pick up where they left off again in Season 7. Faith and Wes had no contact whatsoever ever after "Sanctuary" but Faith's crimes against him were still raw in Season 4. The last time Xander commented on Faith in "This Years Girl" he was still showing a lot of resentment towards her (oddly enough I think he was more hurt by her ridicule of him than the choking) and I wouldn't find it odd if he still held on to that. We're only to assume that he didn't hold resentment against her in Season 7 because we're not shown it, but then, we're not shown Xander's reaction to Faith at all in Season 7 so it's presumptuous either way.

    I'm not sure I needed a romantic Xander/Faith in Season 7. Although, it's interesting to ponder whether it would have been more worthwhile than Faith/Wood. Faith/Wood was always somewhat bizarre to me. Wood had clearly expressed attraction to Buffy throughout Season 7 and then to have him hop over to chasing Faith (especially after the fallout of "LMTPM") just felt a little disingenuous. Was he actually interested in Faith? Or was this his way of getting back at Buffy by latching onto her rival - the "other Slayer" - who Buffy had apparently filled him in about ("Buffy told me about you")? Also, it's slightly icky that Wood seems to have a fixation on chasing Slayers in particular given his Nikki issues ("I must say Miss Summers you're really something. You remind me of- of" "Your mother?" "Yeah"). I always just felt a little bad for Faith because I think Wood's interest in her was shady.

    I'd have honestly just been happy with Xander/Faith if it had remained platonic and we'd have been given some decent follow-up to their relationship at all. Show them being friends. Show Faith apologising or owning up to how she nearly killed him. Heck, if you're committed to Faith being blase to how she "had him first" at least have that play out on screen with the characters actually sharing some dialogue instead of something that apparently happened off-screen between Faith/Anya. Anything.

    I didn't have a burning desire to see Faith paired off romantically in Season 7. I've always felt it was strange they even went there with Wood. It seemed so superfluous and trivial in comparison to the issues they explored with her in "Angel" and I never got why they needed to give her a romantic subplot when her history with the characters (Buffy, Willow, Xander, Giles) was so rich enough already. For instance, we saw Faith/Willow briefly interacting in "Dirty Girls" and Willow didn't appear to hold onto the resentment she once had for Faith in a major way and we can assume that's because Willow's own dark spell in Season 6, but why not explore that? Why not touch on it? In "Dopplegangland" they teased the idea that Willow did "have it in [her]" to be as dark as Faith so why not revisit that now? We're just to assume that Willow had a complete change of heart between "Who Are You" and "Dirty Girls" when she once hated Faith with a fiery passion ("I forgot how much you don't like Faith") when it would have made for some fantastic scenes to actually address it. Did Faith even know about Dark Willow? Who knows.

    It also would have really helped if they'd explored Faith's relationship with Xander and Willow to better gage their feelings about Faith given that they end up kicking Buffy out of her house and following Faith instead. I mean, Faith!? Really!? The last time we saw them discuss their feelings about Faith they were both rooting for Buffy to "kick her ass" and were both overjoyed when they thought Buffy had kicked her ass and sent her to the big house ("I feel a high five coming on!"). Obviously they'd have heard about her turning herself in to prison in "Sanctuary" so I don't expect their hatred of her to be quite as strong but, I mean, these people can hold grudges. I'd at least expect them to share some uneasiness or faint animosity towards her the way Buffy, Giles and Dawn (!!!) did when she first showed up. At least initially. How'd we get from "kick her ass!" to dumping Buffy as a leader and putting Faith in charge!? I'm not saying it's not possible but, damn, you gotta show it. It's a complete 180.

    All that stuff is far more important to me then pairing Faith off with Wood, or Xander, or anyone. I'm not against Xander/Faith on principle but it wouldn't be my priority.
    Last edited by vampmogs; 16-03-19 at 03:56 AM.
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    All said regarding writers, producers, actors, directors, viewers, readers, etc. are what I remember, my opinions, etc.



    * Xander was a one-night stand for Faith in "The Zeppo" (B 3.13) because Faith was horny from slaying. It's clear that Faith didn't mean much to Faith after "The Zeppo".


    * In 'verse and 'production reasons' makes Xander/Faith in BtVS S7 almost beyond silly. Xander wasn't going to be involved in the Faith spin-off and he wasn't going to be involved in AtS S5.

    Spike/Faith simply made far more sense and Robin Wood was mostly 'there' and then BtVS S8 tells
    Spoiler:
    Faith/Robin dated for several months or whatever.


    From Xander's side, Anya was around in BtVS S7. I don't see why Xander would try for Faith instead of reuniting with Anya.

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    It's as though "thread that imputes possibility of romantic entanglement for any woman in the Buffyverse with someone other than Spike" is a conjuring spell

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeB View Post
    All said regarding writers, producers, actors, directors, viewers, readers, etc. are what I remember, my opinions, etc.
    Everybody has always known this. There is no reason anyone would ever assume otherwise. Sorry to nitpick, but this has always mystified me.

    * Xander was a one-night stand for Faith in "The Zeppo" (B 3.13) because Faith was horny from slaying. It's clear that Faith didn't mean much to Faith after "The Zeppo".
    Well, yeah, but you may have missed where the premise was whether or not there would have been up or down value to writing the season a different way? Like, it would no longer be relevant what happened in the season as written, if they had chosen a different course for the narrative? The merits of any such alternate course are the topic of the thread?

    * In 'verse and 'production reasons' makes Xander/Faith in BtVS S7 almost beyond silly. Xander wasn't going to be involved in the Faith spin-off and he wasn't going to be involved in AtS S5.
    I think you have convinced yourself that spin-off was closer to happening than it ever actually was. There's nothing that happens in A4/B7 that actually sets up a spin-off for Faith the way, say, B3 went out of its way to set the premise for "Angel", i.e. giving him a motive about his own purpose to explore later as well as using the plot to make clear he was leaving, and to where. And Spike's involvement in "Angel" or the potential spin-off was obviously a late move or there'd have been no reason to literally kill him off in glorious fashion to conclude "Buffy".

    Since in the context of this thread we're talking about decisions that would have been made months before any such spin-off or "Angel" talk really took shape, it's actually not relevant. Had they written Xander into a relationship with Faith and then spin-off talk started up for which they didn't intend Nick to be involved, they'd have just written them right back out.

    From Xander's side, Anya was around in BtVS S7. I don't see why Xander would try for Faith instead of reuniting with Anya.
    Not for nothing they had spent most of the season reestablishing Xander and Anya as being comfortable around each other at all. Even their "Storyteller" tryst was described by both of them as being proof that they weren't getting back together. Nor is there much context to suggest that they had changed their minds by "Touched" rather than just needing that connection in the face of their presumed likely deaths in battle.

    So the rest is just that same "what if they had made a different writing choice" discussion fodder.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KingofCretins View Post
    It's as though "thread that imputes possibility of romantic entanglement for any woman in the Buffyverse with someone other than Spike" is a conjuring spell



    Everybody has always known this. There is no reason anyone would ever assume otherwise. Sorry to nitpick, but this has always mystified me.



    Well, yeah, but you may have missed where the premise was whether or not there would have been up or down value to writing the season a different way? Like, it would no longer be relevant what happened in the season as written, if they had chosen a different course for the narrative? The merits of any such alternate course are the topic of the thread?



    I think you have convinced yourself that spin-off was closer to happening than it ever actually was. There's nothing that happens in A4/B7 that actually sets up a spin-off for Faith the way, say, B3 went out of its way to set the premise for "Angel", i.e. giving him a motive about his own purpose to explore later as well as using the plot to make clear he was leaving, and to where. And Spike's involvement in "Angel" or the potential spin-off was obviously a late move or there'd have been no reason to literally kill him off in glorious fashion to conclude "Buffy".

    Since in the context of this thread we're talking about decisions that would have been made months before any such spin-off or "Angel" talk really took shape, it's actually not relevant. Had they written Xander into a relationship with Faith and then spin-off talk started up for which they didn't intend Nick to be involved, they'd have just written them right back out.



    Not for nothing they had spent most of the season reestablishing Xander and Anya as being comfortable around each other at all. Even their "Storyteller" tryst was described by both of them as being proof that they weren't getting back together. Nor is there much context to suggest that they had changed their minds by "Touched" rather than just needing that connection in the face of their presumed likely deaths in battle.

    So the rest is just that same "what if they had made a different writing choice" discussion fodder.
    They wouldn't have made that writing choice in season 3, because that would have changed the entire course of the season and Faith's role in it. She was not supposed to be a love interest and have a serious relationship with one of the Scoobies. She was supposed to turn to the dark side and become the villain. And her most important relationship was always going to be with Buffy.
    She was also not written as someone who would be interested in or able to have a serious relationship in season 3.

    And they wouldn't have written a Xander/Faith romance in season 7, because that really wouldn't have made sense out of the blue.
    Wood/Faith also didn't make too much sense, but Xander/Faith would have been even weirder, especially since they had no interaction since the time she sexually assaulted and tried to kill him. Unless you count her stint in Buffy's body, when she couldn't help but make fun of his sexual prowess.

    What should have happened is Xander and Faith having a conversation in season 7 in which Faith apologized to him, the way they finally made her have that talk with Riley in the comics.

    As for the spinoff, they obviously were planning it at the time when they wrote and shot Dirty Girls, since that was the purpose of the Faith/Spike scene.
    Xander certainly wouldn't have been planned as a character in the spinoff, due to Nick's troubles with alcoholism during season 7.
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    Yeah the Faith spinoff was actually the closest we've come to a spinoff since "Angel." It was actually *offered* to Eliza Dushku but she turned it down for "Tru Calling" and the UPN were willing to pick it up, so it would've actually happened. I'm a little fuzzy on the timeline of when this all went down because, as stated in the DVD commentary, the Faith/Spike scene in "Dirty Girls" was set up to test the chemistry between the characters and lay a foundation for them being on a show together, but by "Chosen" it was already announced that Spike was joining "Angel." So Eliza must've turned down the spinoff sometime fairly soon after "Dirty Girls" as Spike (and Wood) were originally planned to be in her spinoff instead.

    It's interesting to ponder how a Faith spinoff would've effected "Angel" going forward. Whedon has previously stated that one of the main reasons Spike moved over to that show was that it was pretty much demanded by The WB as a condition for renewing the series for Season 5. Had Spike been partnered with Faith instead would they still have renewed "Angel?" Possibly not. Or maybe The WB would've just demanded another cast crossover instead (Alyson Hannigan, perhaps).

    It's such a shame Eliza turned down the offer. I totally appreciate that she wanted to try something new and explore a different character but "Tru Calling" was cancelled after 2 seasons and then "Dollhouse" only lasted 2 seasons as well. Given the trouble she had over at CBS, a part of me has always wondered if she has regretted that decision now. There's no guarantee that "Faith the Vampire Slayer" would have lasted as long as "Buffy" or "Angel" did but I'd be willing to bet that with it's built-in audience that it would have lasted longer than 2 seasons, at least.

    That said, I wasn't overly enthused by the premise of the show as laid out by Tim Minear. The idea was that Faith was going to be travelling across America on a motorbike battling demons with Wood and Ghost Spike as her sidekicks. It sounded very "Supernatural" before that show had even come out. I prefer my shows when they're fixated in the one place so the constant travelling from town-to-town didn't appeal to me all that much and the subplot revolving around the cops hunting for her didn't sound all that exciting either. I also never really warmed up to Wood at all despite being more sympathetic towards him in Season 7 than most, I was totally over the Spike/Wood bullsh*t of in Season 7, and Ghost Spike would only last so long before it'd wear thin (as was the case in Season 5 when they eventually had to make him corporeal again). However, I have confidence that they'd iron out the kinks throughout the first season and I've always imagined that the premise of the show wasn't sustainable long term so it'd shift to something else eventually anyway (a lot like "Angel" moved on from it's noir detective roots). Plus I adore Faith and I'd kill for another Buffyverse show.

    It still sounded way, way better than their other ideas. I thought the "Magic School" idea or the Dawn Spinoff both sounded incredibly lame. I have no idea what they were thinking with either of those concepts. The Potentials were one of the most unpopular additions to the series ever so why they felt a spinoff about training them would be well-received is a mystery to me and whilst I actually like Dawn, she was overwhelmingly hated by the majority of the audience. Also, to be honest, I don't think either Michelle Tratchenberg or the character itself could pull off leading a show.

    The "Ripper" series did sound superb, though. We were so, so close to getting that. I still remember Whedon announcing at the 2007 Comic Con that it was happening and he was in the middle of talks with the BBC. It seemed like such a done deal and then it just fizzled out. I don't think we ever really got an explanation for that? Like, he actually *announced* that it was happening and then... nothing. I even remember him stating that there'd been conversations about having SMG and/or DB make guest appearances in the series. I absolutely loved the idea of a Giles miniseries about him solving ghost stories in England. Why not even make it now? Nostalgia is so strong these days and it doesn't matter that ASH has aged as his character was always considered "old" anyway. A limited series wouldn't tie either Whedon or ASH long term and I'd be willing to bet that now with enough time passed and with a greater appreciation for the Buffyverse from the show's cast, they'd easily be able to get one or two old cast members to make guest appearances. If only *sigh*
    Last edited by vampmogs; 17-03-19 at 02:41 AM.
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