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Thread: Stuff on Buffy that doesn't hold up now

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by a thing of evil View Post
    Xander. Just Xander, OK?
    I wouldn't say Xander as a whole is dated. I mean, is a guy who tells his scared geeky friend, "Don't worry. Buffy is a superhero" really dated? We're talking about a guy who follows the lead of a woman from the very first episode. A guy who called that woman his hero and role model. A guy who elected another woman to be the leader after the death of the previous female leader.

    Yes, Xander says gross comments, especially during the high school years, but so do the other characters. Buffy believing Xander must be sexually experienced is also bad. Cordelia calling Xander a woman because he's a wuss is also bad. Buffy and Willow giggling because Xander was not "man enough" to standing up to a bully is also bad.

    I'd say gender expectations in some scenes are dated, but I wouldn't call a whole character dated, especially a male character whose storyline is about breaking out of the gender norms and accepting his role as the supportive sidekick with the power of saving the world with love - a role that used to be reserved for women.
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  3. #22
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    Saying "Xander, just Xander, Ok?" is nothing but virtue-signaling, an intellectually cheap and lazy way of trying to assert how "woke" a thing of evil is. Wouldn't want to run the risk of actually examining the character and acknowledge anything that doesn't support the conclusion that he/she came to first, would we?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skippcomet View Post
    Saying "Xander, just Xander, Ok?" is nothing but virtue-signaling, an intellectually cheap and lazy way of trying to assert how "woke" a thing of evil is. Wouldn't want to run the risk of actually examining the character and acknowledge anything that doesn't support the conclusion that he/she came to first, would we?
    You're right but so are half the posts in this thread.

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    How many characters like Xander are there on modern TV? How many characters are known for their Xander-like brand of humor? If Xander (as a trope, character type etc) is not dated then where are all the other Xanders? Can you name at least one made in the last 5 years, Sosa?

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    Quote Originally Posted by a thing of evil View Post
    How many characters like Xander are there on modern TV? How many characters are known for their Xander-like brand of humor? If Xander (as a trope, character type etc) is not dated then where are all the other Xanders? Can you name at least one made in the last 5 years, Sosa?

    Actually, you seemed to say that Xander was outdated because he's a horndog who makes inappropriate comments about sex and inappropriate remarks to women but we're expected to find him lovable and funny even because of that. There are still a bunch of those characters in the last few years. Barney Stinson (HIMYM), Jason Mendoza (The Good Place), Tyrion and Bronn (Game of Thrones), basically every guy on Silicon Valley, Tom Haverford (Parks and Rec), Larry David (Curb Your Enthusiasm), Phil (Modern Family), Troy/Jeff (Community). Sure, there are some differences. Game of Thrones is set in medieval times so characters like Tyrion come out ahead by not raping women, even if he makes sexist remarks. I'm pretty sure we're supposed to find Barney or Larry or the Silicon Valley guys lovable but they're lovable more in "edginess" and certainly not heroic. Troy, Phil, and Jason are so silly that they're somewhat devoid of Xander's edge and ability to get angry. However, just writing the list makes me think that there's always going to be a guy inappropriately hitting on women or making horndog jokes/sexist remarks bad enough to elicit a glare from the ladies around them but not bad enough to get kicked out of the social group or be considered actually bad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dipstick View Post
    Actually, you seemed to say that Xander was outdated because he's a horndog who makes inappropriate comments about sex and inappropriate remarks to women but we're expected to find him lovable and funny even because of that. There are still a bunch of those characters in the last few years. Barney Stinson (HIMYM), Jason Mendoza (The Good Place), Tyrion and Bronn (Game of Thrones), basically every guy on Silicon Valley, Tom Haverford (Parks and Rec), Larry David (Curb Your Enthusiasm), Phil (Modern Family), Troy/Jeff (Community). Sure, there are some differences. Game of Thrones is set in medieval times so characters like Tyrion come out ahead by not raping women, even if he makes sexist remarks. I'm pretty sure we're supposed to find Barney or Larry or the Silicon Valley guys lovable but they're lovable more in "edginess" and certainly not heroic. Troy, Phil, and Jason are so silly that they're somewhat devoid of Xander's edge and ability to get angry. However, just writing the list makes me think that there's always going to be a guy inappropriately hitting on women or making horndog jokes/sexist remarks bad enough to elicit a glare from the ladies around them but not bad enough to get kicked out of the social group or be considered actually bad.
    Now this makes me angry and sad... Whyyyyyyy!!!!

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    Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the same folks who complain about Xander being a "Nice Guy", etc., usually end up hating on the lead character, Ted, for much the same reasons as they tend to lump Xander, Ross from "Friends," etc., together? And it was Neil Patrick Harris as Barney who was regarded as the break-out "fan favorite" despite being the horn-dog who was constantly hitting on women, etc.?

    Honestly, it's always seemed to me that no matter how much various groups of people will claim to hate this or that behavior (and consequently, also the character doing that behavior and sometimes even the actor playing the character), those same people will literally overlook and forgive a character ANYTHING as long as that character is played by an actor they find "hot," "sexy," or "charismatic," especially if there's another actor they find to be less "hot," etc., that they feel is safer to heap hate upon.

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    Actually, you seemed to say that Xander was outdated because he's a horndog who makes inappropriate comments about sex and inappropriate remarks to women but we're expected to find him lovable and funny even because of that.
    What? I never said that. And it's not one particular thing that makes Xander dated, it's the entire 90s AF package.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skippcomet View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the same folks who complain about Xander being a "Nice Guy", etc., usually end up hating on the lead character, Ted, for much the same reasons as they tend to lump Xander, Ross from "Friends," etc., together? And it was Neil Patrick Harris as Barney who was regarded as the break-out "fan favorite" despite being the horn-dog who was constantly hitting on women, etc.?

    Honestly, it's always seemed to me that no matter how much various groups of people will claim to hate this or that behavior (and consequently, also the character doing that behavior and sometimes even the actor playing the character), those same people will literally overlook and forgive a character ANYTHING as long as that character is played by an actor they find "hot," "sexy," or "charismatic," especially if there's another actor they find to be less "hot," etc., that they feel is safer to heap hate upon.
    It's always been that way, though. The dude who played the antagonist on You saw a whole surge in popularity despite being pretty much the epitome of every bad thing current groups rant about.

    The idea that people are over Xander-type characters just seems like something born out of echo chamber than much else.

    At the end of the day, though, it's fiction. It's a whole other discussion, but I think this sort of things rubs up that people seem to judge things based on social politic rather than entertainment. Which is funny because the same people doing it laughed at the religious nutters badmouthing the show because it promoted paganism and witchcraft.

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    I'm perfectly willing to admit that I might be biased because he's one of my favorites and I relate to him a good deal, but I don't think Xander is dated at all. He's an insecure teenage boy who says a lot of dumb shit (as teenage boys -- and teenagers in general - do), but over time, he mostly grows out of it as he matures and finds his place in the world. Xander is the realest character this show ever produced. There were plenty of guys like him in the '90s and there are plenty like him now. It seems that the reason that some fans hate him so much is because he reminds them of guys they know in real-life. His character is pretty timeless.

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