Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 66

Thread: Positives And Negatives - Season 5

  1. #41
    Slayer Priceless's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    3,267
    Thanks
    6,539
    Thanked 6,030 Times in 2,906 Posts

    Default

    Soul Purpose

    Positives:Another cracking episode on what it means to be a hero. Lindsay's manipulation of Spike is perfect, offering him just enough to keep him interested. Angel's delusions are fun and consolidate where he is right now. I even liked Eve

    Negatives: Spike and 'Buffy' in Angel's bed, with SMG's voice over just didn't work for me.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Damage

    Positive: Another great episode (S5 is so good!) I know I keep repeating myself, but Angel and Spike have so much chemistry and their dialogue is crisp and clever, especially their final scene. I like the slow reveal that Dana is a Slayer. This is the best of Andrew, and I like his performance here, especially his laying down the law to Angel, as the army of Slayers appear, I love that scene! Spike just wants to take action and so comes face to face with his past. Spike without arms is still a shocking thing to see and there really is a feeling of jeopardy and the chance Spike won't make it out 'alive'.

    Negative: Can't think of anything.

  2. The Following User Says Thank You to Priceless For This Useful Post:

    Stoney (05-12-18)

  3. #42
    Well Spiked Stoney's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Blighty
    Posts
    7,379
    Thanks
    9,172
    Thanked 11,132 Times in 4,546 Posts

    Default

    Damage is a great episode, one of my favourite of the season and the final exchange between Spike and Angel is terrific. But, and please bear in mind I haven't just watched this to be sure and have a detailed pov, I think it is one of the examples of Spike being dumbed down to add contrast between him/Angel. Yes he can be impetuous and hot-headed, especially when he's wanting to draw distinction between himself and Angel, but he is made to be dumb at points in how he is going about this, particularly considering he was want to study and consider slayers before rushing in. Even if I fanwank that some of that is a reaction to going after a slayer again when souled that isn't (that I remember) an aspect brought into the text at all but his attitude of it being just part of the game slayer vs vampire is the shallow view given. I think there is some of that in Spike's self defence/processing of his past, but when combined with what they do in how they present his attitude towards the coat later in the season it is all part of a bigger whole which shows only part of a character and in a really negative light. I can take the negatives he displays, I'm not trying to make him holier than thou just because he's souled now, but he isn't as deep as a puddle as AtS sometimes depicts him (in his attitude towards Buffy and their relationship, his mother, slayers as the main examples), all to serve the protag, give Angel the greater emotional depth and add in some more contrast between the two. I do think Spike plays the truculent younger sibling playing up and testing boundaries when he is around Angel. All of this is a genuine part of his character that I can accept, but if you only knew him from AtS and only saw his portrayal there without adding in the greater layers he shows in BtVS and onwards into the comics, he comes off really poorly, less than he is and some key canon moments/plot points are totally undermined. I still love the episode, but it does expose this issue within it.

  4. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Stoney For This Useful Post:

    Dipstick (05-12-18),Priceless (05-12-18)

  5. #43
    Slayer Priceless's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    3,267
    Thanks
    6,539
    Thanked 6,030 Times in 2,906 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Stoney View Post
    Damage is a great episode, one of my favourite of the season and the final exchange between Spike and Angel is terrific. But, and please bear in mind I haven't just watched this to be sure and have a detailed pov, I think it is one of the examples of Spike being dumbed down to add contrast between him/Angel. Yes he can be impetuous and hot-headed, especially when he's wanting to draw distinction between himself and Angel, but he is made to be dumb at points in how he is going about this, particularly considering he was want to study and consider slayers before rushing in. Even if I fanwank that some of that is a reaction to going after a slayer again when souled that isn't (that I remember) an aspect brought into the text at all but his attitude of it being just part of the game slayer vs vampire is the shallow view given. I think there is some of that in Spike's self defence/processing of his past, but when combined with what they do in how they present his attitude towards the coat later in the season it is all part of a bigger whole which shows only part of a character and in a really negative light. I can take the negatives he displays, I'm not trying to make him holier than thou just because he's souled now, but he isn't as deep as a puddle as AtS sometimes depicts him (in his attitude towards Buffy and their relationship, his mother, slayers as the main examples), all to serve the protag, give Angel the greater emotional depth and add in some more contrast between the two. I do think Spike plays the truculent younger sibling playing up and testing boundaries when he is around Angel. All of this is a genuine part of his character that I can accept, but if you only knew him from AtS and only saw his portrayal there without adding in the greater layers he shows in BtVS and onwards into the comics, he comes off really poorly, less than he is and some key canon moments/plot points are totally undermined. I still love the episode, but it does expose this issue within it.
    I think there is evidence of Spike being dumbed down in an attempt to show the differences between him and Angel, so that's a totally valid point. But I'd rather see it as Spike behaving in a dumber way because that's the effect Angel has on him. Angel goads him, criticises him and belittles him, so Spike acts like a child simply to make Angel angry.

    The Angel/Spike convo that has Angel saying they should wait, while Spike wants to go after Dana reminded me of their earlier conversations in Fool For Love that mirror this exchange, with Spike talks of fists and fangs and chides Angel about only fighting when he knows he can win. These two have had this conversation many times I think, with Angel wanting restraint and Spike wanting to jump in. I don't think it's a dumbing down, it's just the way these two communicate.

    Spike comes across as someone who is learning how to exist now he's got his soul. We saw Angel spend a hundred years hidden away from the world. When Whistler found him he was in an alley eating rats. When we compare the two at the same stage of development, Spike is miles ahead. It could be said that Angel is at his most petty and childish too in this season and that is due to Spike's presence. They just have that effect on each other.

  6. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Priceless For This Useful Post:

    Dipstick (05-12-18),Stoney (05-12-18)

  7. #44
    Well Spiked Stoney's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Blighty
    Posts
    7,379
    Thanks
    9,172
    Thanked 11,132 Times in 4,546 Posts

    Default

    I'm not disagreeing with you that there is some genuine character points at play and I did talk about that too. My huge issue with Spike in AtS 5 is the effect that if this is all people know of him then they are missing out on aspects of his character in this limited portrayal and it is a more negative view overall of him they leave with without knowing the additional layers. Of course they aren't going to go into great varying details of a supporting character, and this is part of the issue I have, what is needed to support the theme and Angel's story is what is used and it disadvantages getting a fully balanced view of him. This doesn't mean what we see aren't genuine and it is interesting to see this side to him. I think S5 is great for exploring his dynamic/history with Angel and understanding that better as well as how he is struggling to find his footing on what being a hero can mean and how he wants to walk that path. In his overall journey this season has great worth and it plays its part in the whole, definitely. But there are some important canon character points which are undermined if you solely view him based on AtS 5. Yes people act differently around others and Spike does have moment of being impulsive and hot headed, immature and jealous as I said. There are very genuine aspects at play here and I'm really not wanting to wish those away as I like all aspects of the character, good and bad. But he is also souled now and so he doesn't see it all as he did when unsouled as we saw in FFL. There is a reason/connection that means he avoids wearing the coat again at first in BtVS 7. So despite there being some genuine aspects/traits/truths in it all, when I see that the AtS portrayals of some very important aspects to understanding him fully are shallowed (as I said, particularly around his relationship with Buffy, the history with his mum, and the coat/slayers) I find it frustrating because he's my favourite character and he simply comes across as a douche/callous git on aspects that he is actually pretty mixed/struggling with. I can understand it all because I have the complete picture, but without that it reduces some key character points in ways that are deeply annoying. I can fanwank that he behaves so disgustingly about the coat being destroyed in TGIQ because he is being defensive around Angel, not wanting to expose his weakness in feeling that he needs that symbol/connection to who he used to be to be able to be useful in the fight. But a great deal of seeing that, understanding that, comes from appreciating how he avoided wearing it at first and then used it again in BtVS. Without that it is nothing but a mere trophy to him which undermines a really significant character point. I've even seen some people who just don't like him using his AtS portrayal to claim it's the 'real' character being exposed, removing all his false feelings when he's not trying to fake layers in front of Buffy. It is just frustrating to me.
    Last edited by Stoney; 05-12-18 at 03:48 PM.

  8. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Stoney For This Useful Post:

    Dipstick (05-12-18),Priceless (06-12-18)

  9. #45
    Slayer Priceless's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    3,267
    Thanks
    6,539
    Thanked 6,030 Times in 2,906 Posts

    Default

    I'm not disagreeing with you that there is some genuine character points at play and I did talk about that too. My huge issue with Spike in AtS 5 is the effect that if this is all people know of him then they are missing out on aspects of his character in this limited portrayal and it is a more negative view overall of him they leave with without knowing the additional layers.
    I don't know anyone who watched AtS but not Buffy, and whatever opinion they had of Spike in BtVS wasn't changed by watching AtS. If a tiny minority of people watched only AtS and came away thinking Spike was a fool, that doesn't bother me. I love him, I loved him on BtVS S4, which I really think they've taken the character back too in many ways, and that isn't a problem for me. I appreciate Spike in all his forms. He's multidimensional and I love all his dimensions.

    There are moments in AtS that we see a Spike I think you'd prefer to see more of, as when he's talking to Fred and revealing his feelings, or the moment at the end of Damage when he and Angel have a revelatory moment. Anyone watching will see those moments and understand that Spike isn't just the fool, or the comic relief, but he has a depth that he keeps hidden because he doesn't want to allow Angel too much of an insight into William. The fight in Destiny is another example of Spike not being a fool, but being powerful and beating Angel to the prize.

  10. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Priceless For This Useful Post:

    Dipstick (06-12-18),Stoney (06-12-18)

  11. #46
    Well Spiked Stoney's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Blighty
    Posts
    7,379
    Thanks
    9,172
    Thanked 11,132 Times in 4,546 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Priceless View Post
    I don't know anyone who watched AtS but not Buffy, and whatever opinion they had of Spike in BtVS wasn't changed by watching AtS. If a tiny minority of people watched only AtS and came away thinking Spike was a fool, that doesn't bother me. I love him, I loved him on BtVS S4, which I really think they've taken the character back too in many ways, and that isn't a problem for me. I appreciate Spike in all his forms. He's multidimensional and I love all his dimensions.

    There are moments in AtS that we see a Spike I think you'd prefer to see more of, as when he's talking to Fred and revealing his feelings, or the moment at the end of Damage when he and Angel have a revelatory moment. Anyone watching will see those moments and understand that Spike isn't just the fool, or the comic relief, but he has a depth that he keeps hidden because he doesn't want to allow Angel too much of an insight into William. The fight in Destiny is another example of Spike not being a fool, but being powerful and beating Angel to the prize.
    I'm really not saying that I want to see more of a specific aspect of Spike. In fact quite the contrary, I'm saying repeatedly that I appreciate what we learn and see of him in AtS and what is explored for him in the season, I think it adds to his development and overall journey very coherently. I think there's great value in understanding the character better through what we see here. My issue is that you have to know the background and wider depth from another show to be able to apply understanding against what is portrayed in AtS because AtS within itself doesn't refute or show the other side on the issues of canon that it is directly undermining. These are important character points and it is presenting a really negative and shallow version of them which isn't contradicted in the text within AtS directly. Instead it is backed up by repeated incidents.

    So his disregard over Dana is duplicated in his whining about his coat being destroyed. Sure we know better, we know that isn't all there is to it because we've seen more and I take your point that most AtS viewers will have seen BtVS, but this is how AtS is portraying him. There was no necessity at all to bring up his mother coming on to him as a joke twice in the season, it served no purpose but to use it as a joke when we know it was a deeply traumatic event for the character. But only from BtVS. They cut out the ILY and flaming hands in the flashbacks to Spike/Buffy and then had Angel undermine the relationship and Spike make crass comments about sleeping with Buffy. We know that Angel knew Buffy felt more for Spike than he is presenting, but again, only from BtVS. The fight in Destiny doesn't just make Spike look powerful it also makes him look crass and petty, which he is as well, which is kind of the point of him saying that taking it from Angel was a genuine part of his motivation, although not the entirety of it. We understand that he doesn't want to refute what Angel is saying about Buffy because he isn't going to expose his feelings like he did with Dru, we see from the flashbacks to when Angel slept with Dru that he has learnt his lesson on that. But yet again what we really know that refutes how he is being presented comes from BtVS, not AtS.

    You're right that Spike is in many ways taken back to a S4 Spike. He and Angel regress each other in negative ways, on both sides, but odd snippets of conversation that show that he isn't just the callous, laddish fool all the time doesn't eradicate pulling down some major character points for humour. Spike changes when he becomes souled and we do see some of that side of him too in AtS 5 for sure, but it is mostly at the first half of the season before he deliberately starts to align more to the team and following Angel's lead. The dumbing down and emphasis on the negative aspects is most frustrating because it comes along with these important canon points being disregarded to fit alongside it and it isn't necessary and that's why they frustrate me so much.

    I honestly don't think that anyone that knows how much I love the character can believe that I don't know that he is multidimensional or would think that I don't appreciate the different facets of his character. It is his complexity that makes him so fascinating. This isn't about not understanding what they were showing of him in AtS, not appreciating how different situations/people bring out different sides to others, it is about finding the writing frustrating when it feels that what this show demonstrated was limited by what served another character best, and most especially that this included contradicting important character points that presented as being done for humour.

    And I don't think it is a tiny minority of people btw. I wasn't in fandom at the time but I'm led to believe there was a great deal of resentment in the cast and fans that Spike was being shoehorned into the season and taking priority away from existing characters. That he was presented as both critical, challenging but also a bickering sibling that regressed around Angel were all good characterisations. But for many it just supported the frustrating attitude/interpretation that a soul made no difference to Spike and he was far less than Angel. Sure I know that this is something that a great swathe were saying at BtVS S7 too, but this season was held as the final word on the character and proof of how he really was in a way that the disrupted canon aspects drive me nutty on. All power to you if it doesn't bother you, it took the edge off the season for me and I can only hope that effect has lessened when I get to rewatching it again. You never know, that I do see the character benefit in the season and having had years of getting to vent/rant about the negative uncessary parts which annoy me, it might have lessened. Perhaps a little anyway.
    Last edited by Stoney; 06-12-18 at 01:47 AM.

  12. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Stoney For This Useful Post:

    Dipstick (06-12-18),Priceless (06-12-18)

  13. #47
    Slayer Priceless's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    3,267
    Thanks
    6,539
    Thanked 6,030 Times in 2,906 Posts

    Default

    I'm really not saying that I want to see more of a specific aspect of Spike. In fact quite the contrary, I'm saying repeatedly that I appreciate what we learn and see of him in AtS and what is explored for him in the season, I think it adds to his development and overall journey very coherently. I think there's great value in understanding the character better through what we see here. My issue is that you have to know the background and wider depth from another show to be able to apply understanding against what is portrayed in AtS because AtS within itself doesn't refute or show the other side on the issues of canon that it is directly undermining. These are important character points and it is presenting a really negative and shallow version of them which isn't contradicted in the text within AtS directly. Instead it is backed up by repeated incidents.
    It would be better if the audience knew more about Spike, agreed, but it doesn't bother me that they might not have watched BtVS, so might be reading Spike's character differently to the way I read him. I don't think the show presents Spike as negative or shallow, or if it does, it's for comic effect and that makes the character even more lovable to me.

    The same could be said about Angel. If you'd never watched Buffy, some of the Angel story/character would be lost. But that doesn't affect how I understand the character on AtS. Same for Wesley and Cordy. If you'd never watched BtVS, you'd still develop feelings and understandings for these characters over time that would probably be similar to ones you'd have had if you had watched BtVS imo. So for me, it makes very little difference.

    So his disregard over Dana is duplicated in his whining about his coat being destroyed. Sure we know better, we know that isn't all there is to it because we've seen more and I take your point that most AtS viewers will have seen BtVS, but this is how AtS is portraying him. There was no necessity at all to bring up his mother coming on to him as a joke twice in the season, it served no purpose but to use it as a joke when we know it was a deeply traumatic event for the character.
    I agree that Spike using his mother's death as a punchline is jarring, but the situation in which we found out about it, and this situation, are different. He's not chained in a basement with Giles and Robin hating on him, being controlled by The First. He's had time to come to terms with his past, to understand that what happened with his mum was due to the demon inside her, and he was trying to show solidarity with Wesley. He was also in the company of another vampire who'd slaughtered his own family and now Wesley who'd 'killed his father', these are men who would now have more understanding of what had happened to Spike, rather than Buffy, Robin, Giles etc. who could/would see him as a monster. I can fanwank a way around it, and it doesn't change my view about Spike.

    I think the fight in Destiny doesn't reflect well on either vamp, and I think that's the point. That they are both petty and childish and that the Shanshu is a ridiculous thing that really neither of them should even be thinking about. I think it's a great episode and a great scene. It is also Angel's show, everything that happens between him and Spike, or even just to Spike, is a reflection of Angel. As Faith is to Buffy, so Spike is to Angel.

  14. The Following User Says Thank You to Priceless For This Useful Post:

    Stoney (06-12-18)

  15. #48
    Well Spiked Stoney's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Blighty
    Posts
    7,379
    Thanks
    9,172
    Thanked 11,132 Times in 4,546 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Priceless View Post
    It would be better if the audience knew more about Spike, agreed, but it doesn't bother me that they might not have watched BtVS, so might be reading Spike's character differently to the way I read him. I don't think the show presents Spike as negative or shallow, or if it does, it's for comic effect and that makes the character even more lovable to me.

    The same could be said about Angel. If you'd never watched Buffy, some of the Angel story/character would be lost. But that doesn't affect how I understand the character on AtS. Same for Wesley and Cordy. If you'd never watched BtVS, you'd still develop feelings and understandings for these characters over time that would probably be similar to ones you'd have had if you had watched BtVS imo. So for me, it makes very little difference.
    But AtS started with Doyle giving a summary of key aspects of Angel's story in regards to Buffy over on BtVS. AtS gave flashbacks to Chosen and deliberately cut out the aspects that emphasised the romance between Buffy and Spike, they were angling the information from the start. And again, it is that they then present a contradictory perspective and support it within their own episodes. That you can fanwank around all of it doesn't change that you need to because the show isn't providing the ties. I'm happy with the ways I have come to reconcile a through line for his behaviour, but I resent that they contradict important points in canon unnecessarily and create the need to. For some it's an opportunity to state that the shows support their less favourable views on him and I just dislike that. It bothers me specifically because of how much I love the character and how much I'm invested in his story and all aspects of it/him.

    I agree that Spike using his mother's death as a punchline is jarring, but the situation in which we found out about it, and this situation, are different. He's not chained in a basement with Giles and Robin hating on him, being controlled by The First. He's had time to come to terms with his past, to understand that what happened with his mum was due to the demon inside her, and he was trying to show solidarity with Wesley. He was also in the company of another vampire who'd slaughtered his own family and now Wesley who'd 'killed his father', these are men who would now have more understanding of what had happened to Spike, rather than Buffy, Robin, Giles etc. who could/would see him as a monster. I can fanwank a way around it, and it doesn't change my view about Spike.
    I don't believe Buffy would have seen him as a monster because of what happened with his mum, and although I take your point that Wes and Angel can relate, their reasons for doing so were very removed from Spike's. It is also not the only time, we see he is going to do a whole poem recital about it with the comedy title 'the wanton folly of me mum'. Anyway, the way that I make sense out of someone who is always incredibly guarded about providing personal information that can be used against him or seen as a sign of weakness is to see Spike reacting to the fact that The First had used the memory of his mum as a way to hide the trigger. Like it is a knee jerk reaction to not containing the memory any longer, not suppressing it because he was made to do awful things that he couldn't control under the trigger because of that tendency. I don't think him being in a different context generally would explain him dropping a huge character trait of how he controls and is concerned about his image over something like this (the guarded aspect of his characterisation that AtS actually does sustain and which plays a major part of the season/character still, and is also what the fanwank hangs on in fact to let the issue of his reaction about the coat and Buffy pass too).

    I think the fight in Destiny doesn't reflect well on either vamp, and I think that's the point. That they are both petty and childish and that the Shanshu is a ridiculous thing that really neither of them should even be thinking about. I think it's a great episode and a great scene. It is also Angel's show, everything that happens between him and Spike, or even just to Spike, is a reflection of Angel. As Faith is to Buffy, so Spike is to Angel.
    Again, I think there are some great bits of character exploration in the season for Spike and having that wider view of him and with fanwanking for coherency. It's an important stage on his journey and Damage and Destiny are two of my favourite episodes in the season. But I also feel frustrated at the leaning that they gave for emphasis/comedy at points. I'll be surprised if on a rewatch I don't still resent that I'm having to fanwank to explain and smooth what they directly contradict/disrupt in aspects that were key moments in previous canon. But I do see value to the season for him, that is just separate to my frustration at the needless disruptions they did. As I said, all power to you that it doesn't bother you.
    Last edited by Stoney; 06-12-18 at 12:26 PM.

  16. The Following User Says Thank You to Stoney For This Useful Post:

    Priceless (06-12-18)

  17. #49
    Slayer Priceless's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    3,267
    Thanks
    6,539
    Thanked 6,030 Times in 2,906 Posts

    Default

    But AtS started with Doyle giving a summary of key aspects of Angel's story in regards to Buffy over on BtVS. AtS gave flashbacks to Chosen and deliberately cut out the aspects that emphasised the romance between Buffy and Spike, they were angling the information from the start. And again, it is that they then present a contradictory perspective and support it within their own episodes. That you can fanwank around all of it doesn't change that you need to because the show isn't providing the ties. I'm happy with the ways I have come to reconcile a through line for his behaviour, but I resent that they contradict important points in canon unnecessarily and create the need to. For some it's an opportunity to state that the shows support their less favourable views on him and I just dislike that. It bothers me specifically because of how much I love the character and how much I'm invested in his story and all aspects of it/him.
    Stoney I do understand that this is annoying for you, but really who cares what other's think of Spike? We love him, and this portrayal just adds another dimension to our love. I don't care if people watch this and think the show is validating a less favourable view of Spike. It's not affected the love most people have for him. Yes, some of the things he says and does seem strange considering his behaviour on Buffy, but that's because he's in a different place now, with different people and therefore would behave differently. To be honest, nothing Spike could say or do would be as bad as the AR, no matter how foolish they write him or how callous. I'd rather people laughed at him than hated him. But I don't think that's the case. We laugh at Angel and Spike equally, or at least I do. I think we shall have to agree to disagree. I may change my mind as I watch more of the season, a lot of which I just don't remember very well.

    - - - Updated - - -

    You're Welcome

    Positive: Wonderful to see Cordelia again. The scene of her and Angel watching Doyle on video just hits the exact right emotional note. I also like how disgusted she is with Angel 'raping' their memories and giving up his son.

    Negative: I hate that Cordy was written off the show. I missed her. And that shirt. I really really really hate that shirt.

  18. #50
    Slayer Supporter vampmogs's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    12,280
    Thanks
    1,680
    Thanked 7,669 Times in 2,307 Posts

    Default

    My main issue with Spike’s characterisation in Season 5 is how wildly inconsistent it is when it comes to Spike’s perception of W&H. In Just Rewards he lectures Angel about being corrupted from inside the belly of the beast, he tries to take the moral high ground in Destiny by claiming Angel traded his cape and tights for a comfy chair at the firm, and in episodes like Soul Purpose he plays the role of Season 1 Angel to act as a contrast to how lost Angel is. And yet, in Just Rewards he also expresses jealousy and resentment over Angel’s pent house apartment and CEO perks, in Cautionary Tale of Numero Cinco he mocks Angel for feeling disconnected because Spike feels Angel should be placated with his new clothes, new cars and Spike’s ex-tumble serving him coffee, in Smile Time it’s revealed he’s taking full advantage of W&H’s fancy cars and gadgets, and in Shells he then officially joins the team.

    So which is it? I could buy a story where Spike slowly becomes just as swallowed by W&H as the rest of Team Angel. But in episodes like Just Rewards he’s completely inconsistent from scene to scene. He’s lecturing Angel for being corrupted whilst also complaining about how Angel “has it too good” and doesn’t deserve all the riches he’s got. He comes across as hypocritical, and frankly, really shallow, as he’s far more fixated on all of W&H’s materialistic perks than Angel ever is. If it’s intentional then the writer’s are undermining their own story when they try and set Spike up as a favourable contrast/mirror to Angel later in the season because it makes it seem that what really bothers Spike isn't that Angel has been corrupted but that Angel gets all the perks Spike wants for himself. It also makes Spike come across as fairly, well, simple, to act as if Angel has nothing to be unhappy about working at W&H because he's now living the high life. But this doesn't really fit with all the moralising they have Spike do in other episodes so I think it’s just a case of inconsistent characterisation.
    Last edited by vampmogs; 06-12-18 at 01:47 PM.
    "You've got ... a world of strength in your heart. I know you do. You just have to find it again. Believe in yourself."

  19. The Following User Says Thank You to vampmogs For This Useful Post:

    Dipstick (06-12-18)

  20. #51
    Well Spiked Stoney's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Blighty
    Posts
    7,379
    Thanks
    9,172
    Thanked 11,132 Times in 4,546 Posts

    Default

    I think this is greatly about Spike's uncertainty about the path he could/should walk as a hero and is quite deliberately played. At this point Spike is really only just souled and it's very early still in carving his path. Angel returned to his vampiric family at first and tried to find a way to exist with them still. Neither get it flawlessly right in how to react and deal with everything that has changed for them and Angel's story shows that it is a struggle that continues to be difficult. Spike does see criticisms in what Angel is doing and voices it more at first when he feels lost and distant to everyone and part of the fixation on the perks is shallow, but that does also reflect Angel's position of power and the idea of being corrupted or rewarded. Spike doubts himself in comparison to Angel a lot and feels jealousy of Angel's path and status especially as he feels so uncertain himself. Just as Angel fears that Spike could be a more worthy hero as he got himself on the path he is on. They both try to belittle each other and pull the other down because of how they feel in comparison underneath. The do come to a position of more mutual respect by the latter part of the season and their dynamic improves a great deal from this time together where they both suffer from bringing out negative sides of each other but also benefit from having someone to share/understand their inner struggles.

    In the end Spike reacts to Fred's death by deciding to live by her memory and work alongside them as that was her choice. It is a very specific and deliberate switch in attitude as I remember it. It's of course a very weak personal decision and doesn't even really reflect how Fred felt because he didn't actually know her that well. But his insecurity about who he can be has him return to following and the safety that offers. As he did with Buffy he does learn/gain from the example that Angel gives him. In some ways its positive and in others it's not. But where he ends up does go against his own pov on a lot of what he stated at first but I don't think that is incomprehensible when he is wanting to find a direction so much. It isn't surprising though that he starts to break away from Angel after S5.

  21. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Stoney For This Useful Post:

    Dipstick (06-12-18),Priceless (06-12-18)

  22. #52
    Slayer Priceless's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    3,267
    Thanks
    6,539
    Thanked 6,030 Times in 2,906 Posts

    Default

    I think it makes sense, in that it's a very human attitude. Spike is jealous of what Angel has especially when he himself doesn't even have a solid body, even though he sees that the way he got it is corrupt. We look at rich people, and wish we had their money, but we don't want to be them or do their job or behave the way they behave, because we can see the issues with it. In many ways it mirrors how Angel himself feels. He joined W&H for the added extras of wiping his friends minds and hiding Connor, he knows himself that it's a bad move, but goes along with it even though it's having a terrible effect on him.

  23. The Following User Says Thank You to Priceless For This Useful Post:

    Stoney (06-12-18)

  24. #53
    Slayer
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    2,459
    Thanks
    3,952
    Thanked 3,240 Times in 1,412 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Priceless View Post
    I agree that Spike using his mother's death as a punchline is jarring, but the situation in which we found out about it, and this situation, are different. He's not chained in a basement with Giles and Robin hating on him, being controlled by The First. He's had time to come to terms with his past, to understand that what happened with his mum was due to the demon inside her, and he was trying to show solidarity with Wesley. He was also in the company of another vampire who'd slaughtered his own family and now Wesley who'd 'killed his father', these are men who would now have more understanding of what had happened to Spike, rather than Buffy, Robin, Giles etc. who could/would see him as a monster. I can fanwank a way around it, and it doesn't change my view about Spike.
    I had no problem with Spike using his mother's death to show solidarity with Wesley in Linage in a moment just between those two. I did have a problem in the next ep Destiny when Spike loudly announced it to the W&H in a bid to grab Wesley's office out from under him while Wes on leave.

    SPIKE: Job well done, eh? At least give me Wesley's office. I mean, since he's gone.
    ANGEL: He's not gone. He's on a leave of absence.
    SPIKE: Yeah, right. Boo-hoo. Thought he killed his bloody father. Try staking your mother when she's coming on to you!
    HARMONY: Well... that explains a lot.

    This makes his "solidarity" with Wes pretty much phony in the ep before. As vampmogs indicated, it's another example where Spike is inconsistent because he's bashing Angel for being corrupted at W&H in the same episode where he pleads for a W&H office. It's stupid- I don't even know what a non-corporeal ghost who doesn't work there needs with a W&H office. I don't even know what restless, fighter Spike would do with an office even if he was corporeal. He wanted it purely as a status show. And it just feels tacky and beneath him that Spike would scream out such an intimate, powerful trauma in his unlife in the crowded W&H lobby in pursuit of an office so that Harmony could immediately snark at him.

    *I* don't get why Spike didn't leave for Buffy once corporealized. Stoney makes a good point about Angel also slipped and went back to his vampiric family after he was ensouled. Angel going back to Darla to murder thieves and low-lifes is worse than Spike joining even a corrupted AI. However still, I *get* why Angel slipped like that. Angel had no other framework on how to behave once souled. The S2 writing was intense and I felt deeply at seeing Angel rejoin his vampire family- disgust, pity, later pride when Angel burst out of Darla's life to rescue the baby. Spike, on the other hand, had Buffy and the Scooby gang as another, better group to return to. His explanation that he didn't want to be anti-climactic by coming back alive to Buffy after he died to save the world is unconvincing and weak to me. It's also devoid of all of the emotional weight of Angel returning to his vampiric family. It just feels like empty excuses for why Spike is on AtS rather than an organic story.

    Soul Purpose

    Positive: The dissonance between how Angel dreams about Gunn/Wes and their role in his life is interesting. Wesley is positioned as Angel's closest friend when he's the first to notice that Angel is sick and goes to be Mystical Doctor but then, Wesley plays the role of Betrayer when he takes advantage of that closeness to suck-punch stake Angel. However in real life at the end of the episode, Wesley is Angel's mystical doctor who diagnoses what the bugs did to him. In Angel's dream, Angel turns Gunn basically into the Senior Partners when Gunn doesn't talk but instead growls like the Big Cat in the White Room. However in the waking world, Gunn is still Angel's lawyer and he still goes on errands for the team to the White Room to communicate with the Senior Partners and Angel doesn't really say "boo" about it.

    I also like Boho!Fred at the end of the ep. I enjoy this little motif of Angel giving makeovers to the people around him in his dreams- Wedding Dress Buffy in The Prom, Old School Wesley in Deep Down, Toga and Better Hair Cordelia in Awakening, now Boho Fred. It calls on Angel's artistic tendencies. Hmm, 1920s Piano Player Lorne could also apply but that's more shaping Lorne to play an outlandish part.

    Negative: Angel's dreams are SOOOOOOO repetitive. There's little there given how it's an entire episode of just his dreams. It's pretty much all, "Poor me, I don't feel like a Champion anymore. I'm jealous of Spike" over and over again. I think an episode of Angel's dreams could have been excellent because he's such a cipher in this season and he's deliberately keeping all of his Connor-feelings to himself even though Connor is purportedly why he's at W&H. However, the ep takes a pass at examining Angel's feelings about Connor and Cordelia.

    To go upthread to what Priceless was saying, Lindsay does an adequate job getting Spike to save damsels. However, that's not particularly impressive. Spike wants to save people in danger. Lindsay just has to tell Spike that people are in danger, and Spike's own personality and ambitions will guide him to save the day. However, Lindsay's plan is stupidly executed in every other respect. Lindsay doesn't just want Spike to save people. He wants the Senior Partners to lose confidence in Angel as the key prophetic figure and instead believe the Shansu was discussing Spike, throw Angel out of W&H and give the office to Spike, and then, for Spike to be so taken with Lindsay that Spike appoints Lindsay as his second-in-command.

    Now, I think Spike is a hard guy to charm, especially if you're a man. However, Lindsay really sucks at endearing himself to Spike. The slime just obviously leaks out of every pore. IMO, Spike took the visions because they were panning out to help people and he took the housing connection but he had a sense that there was something sleazy about this "Doyle." Lindsay and Eve's BIG asset is that Eve works closely with Angel at W&H and she is a liaison for the Senior Partners. Frankly, silly little Eve is far better at ingratiating herself and putting herself in the inside loop than S5 Lindsay because AI has ended up tolerating Eve in many of their strategy conversations. It helps that she's a lil lady and she and Angel smashed at the beginning of this season. However, Lindsay and Eve proceed to jeopardize their one big asset over this stupid plan. First if Lindsay and Eve could somehow bribe Sirk into giving false prophecies, I don't know why they couldn't hire some errand person to watch Angel and put the demon bugs on him. Why risk Angel seeing Eve? Eve trying to gaslight Angel into believing that she wasn't there was completely lame and amateurish. She didn't even bring a "You are getting sleepy" hypnosis pendant. Snerk. Second, I don't see how giving Angel's Insecurity Hallucinations and Spike rescuing Angel does anything to convince the Senior Partners that they were trying to corrupt the wrong vampire for the last four and a half years. They take on tremendous risk just to have Spike rescue Angel. Big whoop. Main cast members rescue each other all the time in the 'verse.
    Last edited by Dipstick; 06-12-18 at 06:35 PM.

  25. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Dipstick For This Useful Post:

    Klaus Kartoffel (06-12-18),Stoney (06-12-18)

  26. #54
    Well Spiked Stoney's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Blighty
    Posts
    7,379
    Thanks
    9,172
    Thanked 11,132 Times in 4,546 Posts

    Default

    At the end of the day it all has to be thrown at the feet of how much he is struggling to see how he can have worth and walk a heroic path. And I do think that it is a totally justifiable aspect to explore, especially after the trauma of his firey death and then being so restrained and reduced after his sacrifice to not be able to affect things again. That Angel is doing what he is in being at W&H definitely doesn't help as Spike is critical of him and also wary of not living up to him in comparison. It is confusing and unsettling for him. It isn't like it is impossible to hang it together into rough sense but, like with the fanwanking needed over the pulls down of canon that occur, the viewer that cares about the coherency in the character's story is having to do a lot of the work to draw it all together around the ups/downs of the season for the character. That they insisted on forcing him into the season basically made them push/pull the character around to fit and it stretches characterisation at points. I do think that Spike's insecurities about Buffy, particularly after being around Angel for some time, could have him wanting to keep away and find more certainty on his path before returning. But going to the extent of sacrificing himself without going back at all stretches plausibility greatly for me.

    But the season isn't without any merit for the character, he does get some development and so does his relationship with Angel as we gain greater insight into their dynamic. I can find worth in the season overall, but I wish some of it had been done differently or not happened and he hadn't been reduced in complexity for comedy to the extent of such things as the terrible repeats on referencing his mum, when so many seasons of BtVS deliberately raised him beyond that. Anyway, I'll stop disrupting the thread.

    --
    I really like your point Dipstick about when we get to see how Angel depicts people in his dreams linking to his artistic side. And I agree Spike is going along with Lindsey because it is on the route he wants to be in looking to help people but Lindsey isn't ingratiating himself well. You raise good issues over the weak elements of the Lindsey/Eve plan.
    Last edited by Stoney; 06-12-18 at 09:12 PM.

  27. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Stoney For This Useful Post:

    Dipstick (06-12-18),Klaus Kartoffel (06-12-18)

  28. #55
    Slayer
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    2,459
    Thanks
    3,952
    Thanked 3,240 Times in 1,412 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Stoney View Post
    At the end of the day it all has to be thrown at the feet of how much he is struggling to see how he can have worth and walk a heroic path. And I do think that it is a totally justifiable aspect to explore, especially after the trauma of his firey death and then being so restrained and reduced after his sacrifice to not be able to affect things again. That Angel is doing what he is in being at W&H definitely doesn't help as Spike is critical of him and also wary of not living up to him in comparison. It is confusing and unsettling for him. It isn't like it is impossible to hang it together into rough sense but, like with the fanwanking needed over the pulls down of canon that occur, the viewer that cares about the coherency in the character's story is having to do a lot of the work to draw it all together around the ups/downs of the season for the character. That they insisted on forcing him into the season basically made them push/pull the character around to fit and it stretches characterisation at points. I do think that Spike's insecurities about Buffy, particularly after being around Angel for some time, could have him wanting to keep away and find more certainty on his path before returning. But going to the extent of sacrificing himself without going back at all stretches plausibility greatly for me.

    But the season isn't without any merit for the character, he does get some development and so does his relationship with Angel as we gain greater insight into their dynamic. I can find worth in the season overall, but I wish some of it had been done differently or not happened and he hadn't been reduced in complexity for comedy to the extent of such things as the terrible repeats on referencing his mum, when so many seasons of BtVS deliberately raised him beyond that. Anyway, I'll stop disrupting the thread.

    --
    I really like your point Dipstick about when we get to see how Angel depicts people in his dreams linking to his artistic side. And I agree Spike is going along with Lindsey because it is on the route he wants to be in looking to help people but Lindsey isn't ingratiating himself well. You raise good issues over the weak elements of the Lindsey/Eve plan.
    To be fair, the artificiality of Spike choosing to work at W&H isn't unique to just him. In the episode elimination thread, I complained about the phoniness of the conversation in You're Welcome when Angel makes pointless noises that He Wants Out! but he never addresses the elephant in the room that he'll need to work at W&H to keep Fake!Connor going. Gunn controls the conversation in a completely phony way where he intimates that the Senior Partners won't let the gang leave. Fred asks with some alarm if THEIR LAWYER Gunn is saying that they're trapped there. Gunn avoids answering her question to make a new argument that it was a good deal to get W&H. Very creepy foreshadowing in that Gunn/Fred exchange but the effect is that AI never has a real conversation about why they're staying at W&H and that's frustrating. But it still makes more sense why Angel's crew has been swallowed up.

    Also with regard to Angel/fashion, he cracks the whole damn case because he remembers what earrings Eve was wearing and assumes that she would have changed the earrings to wear with her change of outfit. It's like a positive and a negative, LOL. I mean, it's hardly a sure thing that Eve would have worn different earrings just because she wore a different outfit. So, that Sherlock display was silly. However, I kind of love that Angel has such DEFINITE feelings about how Eve's earrings don't go with her new outfit that she's a suspect. As Cordelia said, "You have a gay man's taste." I kind of love this side of Angel.

  29. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Dipstick For This Useful Post:

    Klaus Kartoffel (06-12-18),Stoney (06-12-18)

  30. #56
    Slayer Priceless's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    3,267
    Thanks
    6,539
    Thanked 6,030 Times in 2,906 Posts

    Default

    Dipstick I see Spike's reaction as completely organic in that it's a reflection of the whole gangs reactions at being at W&H. They were all bowled over by the added extras. Fred saw her lab and suddenly being here made sense. Gunn was given all that brain power and now he sees the good side of W&H. Angel himself only came there for the added extras of the mind wipe and keeping Connor safe. I think Spike's reactions fits neatly with the others in that they all know W&H are evil, this is the company that's tried to kill them many times over, but they're all taken in by it because of what it offers them personally.

    The only person who rails against W&H is Cordy, and that's because she's been in a coma and hasn't been offered anything substantial. I wonder if Eve offered her a gold credit card, a high end apartment, maybe a shot at a movie role, she'd be taken in too. That's how evil gets you.

  31. #57
    Slayer
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    2,459
    Thanks
    3,952
    Thanked 3,240 Times in 1,412 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Priceless View Post
    Dipstick I see Spike's reaction as completely organic in that it's a reflection of the whole gangs reactions at being at W&H. They were all bowled over by the added extras. Fred saw her lab and suddenly being here made sense. Gunn was given all that brain power and now he sees the good side of W&H. Angel himself only came there for the added extras of the mind wipe and keeping Connor safe. I think Spike's reactions fits neatly with the others in that they all know W&H are evil, this is the company that's tried to kill them many times over, but they're all taken in by it because of what it offers them personally.

    The only person who rails against W&H is Cordy, and that's because she's been in a coma and hasn't been offered anything substantial. I wonder if Eve offered her a gold credit card, a high end apartment, maybe a shot at a movie role, she'd be taken in too. That's how evil gets you.
    I disagree. Spike is inconsistent but I fundamentally don't see him as seduced by material things at W&H. Spike wasn't even given anything personally. It makes no sense to me that Spike doesn't ever get an office, he doesn't ever get an expensive W&H toy, he's still squatting in that crappy apartment that Lindsay connected him to through the end of the season but he's been seduced by the evil organization that he's railing against to Angel. For what, getting to ride their jet twice and not get drunk off the tiny bottles of liquor? I still find Spike inconsistent but I much more buy Stoney's explanation that Spike is still trying to figure out how to be a hero and Angel, his Yoda to some degree, is modeling this kind of heroism. I still don't believe that Spike, believing that this kind of heroism is flawed and that AI is likely to get swallowed by the belly of the beast (Just Rewards) and how a corporation doesn't change but instead changes you (Soul Purpose), would still stay there instead of going back to the Scooby gang. However, the last thing that I'd buy is that Spike was seduced to work at W&H by the grand total of zero material things that he was offered.

    But then, I don't think everyone was equally bowled. Gunn and Angel were given enormous mystical gifts completely changing their person or their son that they could only get from Evil Inc. Consequently, they affirmatively stated in Home that they wanted to take the deal. Fred and Wesley were given fancy stuff as an upgrade from their current stuff but not nearly so big and changing a mystical gift. Fred indicated she didn't like the deal at the end of Home and Wesley didn't make a commitment either way. Angel cut off the discussion by making an executive decision that they're taking the deal, and as a result, Fred and Wesley can only work for AI if they work for W&H. But then, particularly with the mindwipe, Fred and Wesley can't really conceive of fighting evil unless it's under Angel's command. Not the case for Spike.

  32. The Following User Says Thank You to Dipstick For This Useful Post:

    Stoney (07-12-18)

  33. #58
    Well Spiked Stoney's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Blighty
    Posts
    7,379
    Thanks
    9,172
    Thanked 11,132 Times in 4,546 Posts

    Default

    Yes, you really have to believe that Spike is floundering on what he should do and in his insecurities about Buffy for him to stay and not eventually leave to go back to the Scoobies. The draw of what potentially could be between them at the end of Chosen is hard to believe he doesn't respond to unless his own worries over hearing a retraction are deep and Angel's goading would certainly not have helped. Needing to be able to return as positively as he went out, rather than shuffle back when it is surrounded by so many insecurities can work for him. But to the point of actually staying away and dying without returning? That's tough to believe in. I have to take his belief from TGIQ that there would be no point as an additional factor and add in some serious dejection to accept it. As the show and canon comics showed Buffy/the Scoobies really are his priority and where he feels he belongs overall, so that sense of it being where he should be has got to be up in the air from some real internal woes besetting him. Angel is his family too, there's a sense of comfort in sticking around him instead, so falling into following him is understandable if he's really low and lost, but it isn't where the character belongs so it is a big thing for him to walk into death again rather than return. I can see him as dejected to this extent but I don't think it is part of what we are given and really scaffolded on screen well. The poetry recital always felt to me like saying goodbye to the non-fighting part of himself that he was giving up the option of exploring by putting himself on the battle frontline yet again, so there are aspects that add weight to it, but it still feels my explanation rather than theirs. The show's wish to have this glorified final battle aspect over the suicide plan doesn't lead with that tone to it all even though the negative loss of hope threads through for the other characters so is the clear way for it to make more sense for Spike too. It is fanwankable, but it's still troublesome because again the viewer is doing a heck of a lot of the work to make it coherent.
    Last edited by Stoney; 07-12-18 at 12:10 PM.

  34. The Following User Says Thank You to Stoney For This Useful Post:

    Dipstick (07-12-18)

  35. #59
    Slayer Priceless's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    3,267
    Thanks
    6,539
    Thanked 6,030 Times in 2,906 Posts

    Default

    I disagree. Spike is inconsistent but I fundamentally don't see him as seduced by material things at W&H.
    I think 'seduced' is overstating it. I think he's there, he sees what everyone else has. He's stuck without a body, not being able to leave, and he wants to be 'seen', he want them to acknowledge him and validate his situation, work to solve it etc. Asking for an office is his way of saying he's still there, he's important, and of course it's another way to piss off Angel.

    he's still squatting in that crappy apartment that Lindsay connected him to through the end of the season but he's been seduced by the evil organization that he's railing against to Angel
    He has a place. That's what he wanted, and Angel didn't allow him that, wouldn't even give him an office. What else is Spike to do? He has to live somewhere. I can see why he'd go along with Lindsay, when it's Lindsay giving him these things that Angel has denied him.

    It really doesn't seem inconsistent to me. Spike returns as a ghost, relying on his 'enemy' for everything he has. He can't leave W&H so is stuck there with Angel, who constantly tells him he's worthless, a nothing, a side show that Fred shouldn't waste her time on. I totally see Spike's pov in everything he does. He seems incredibly human to me. I know no-one who is surrounded by power, privilege, money, the added extras, that wouldn't want them, while despising where they come from, because it's those added extras that become the validation, rather than your deeds. And that's the issue that Angel is shown to suffer from throughout the season, so it all works for me. Spike is a mirror of Angel, showing him how easy it is to be seduced by those privileges while forgetting you're meant to be about 'helping the helpless'. Spike's arc is a mirror for Angel

  36. The Following User Says Thank You to Priceless For This Useful Post:

    Stoney (07-12-18)

  37. #60
    Well Spiked Stoney's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Blighty
    Posts
    7,379
    Thanks
    9,172
    Thanked 11,132 Times in 4,546 Posts

    Default

    I think it's all at play. It's a very confusing time for him and that is kind of the point. Angel is supposed to be this practiced hero and Spike sees criticisms in what he is doing but yearns to have a mission and direction. Angel might be doing something that Spike can question and see flaws in, but he is still doing something. It's only really Spike's internal doubts that have him swing from just trying to start afresh helping people out and about to joining the team in Fred's memory that exposes really how at sea and uncertain of what he should be doing he is. Buffy's belief in him made it easy to follow her direction but going it alone, believing in himself and feeling sure it's the right thing is a very different scenario. Both vamps are plagued by insecurities and how they feel they fall short of the other as a heavily explored aspect in the season. Spike wants guidance and support in how to carve his path still at this stage, so he's also looking to Angel as more experienced even if he also doubts/questions him and feels it's the wrong place to be. This is why his mistaken belief Fred believed in it too is needed I think for him to switch as he does. Validation has always been a significant part of what motivates him as his self-perception and image plague him. I don't think he is seduced by the pros in themselves but the validation they can represent as Pricey is suggesting and as aspects of the example he is following as he flounders over direction. A sense of deep depression in not feeling surety and not feeling able to return to where he wants to be have to play a part in it all for me, to have him abandon his own perspective. It's just illustrative of the extent of the internal struggle I think. I still find it hard to accept him walking knowingly towards death without going back and swallowing his fear/pride, he doesn't have the suicidal loss of hope the others have without some real fanwanking to have his responses to some aspects become overblown. But if he truly felt he couldn't then sacrificing himself again as the way to find worth/validation is a plausible response.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I have to say as well that as much as Spike is looking for guidance on what path he can walk, what I think Angel really offers him and that he gains from most is the sense of someone else that is still struggling despite all the years he has been doing this. Rather than necessarily how to be a hero in the end it is more that you can continue to find it hard and make mistakes. They are in a specific situation with their histories and struggle with both their distinction from and their ongoing connections to their demons. That they can understand this in each other and the fears that go with it all gives some comfort I think. Perhaps in the longer run with hindsight Spike gains more certainty in his own path by not feeling like Angel's choices were necessarily the best and that he can follow where his gut suggests he should too. It works with how he does steadily break away from Angel, return to going out and trying to help as he does with Connor in AtF and eventually heading back to Buffy/the scoobs.

  38. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Stoney For This Useful Post:

    Dipstick (07-12-18),Priceless (08-12-18)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •