Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 21 to 32 of 32

Thread: Gen Fic Discussion: VAMPYRE! by IL_MIO_CAPITANO (27/9/2018)

  1. #21
    Moderator Sosa lola's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    The basement
    Posts
    3,209
    Thanks
    2,024
    Thanked 2,905 Times in 1,145 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Priceless View Post
    Not so sure about Giles 'suppressing a giggle' - it's hard to imagine Rupert suppressing a giggle when he's moaning about an injury, he usually took those things very seriously and didn't seem to fit with his overall feelings of tiredness.
    Didn't Giles giggle after Buffy told him about the bad they all had done in Grave? A giggle reads as mischievous to me, while a chuckle is more smug and sarcastic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Priceless View Post
    but he's a grown man and the fact she felt the need to comfort him felt a bit off. It's his job!
    But Buffy's relationship with Giles has evolved to more than a job. They're friends. He's their older friend. Comforting him when he's upset is part of the deal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Priceless View Post
    Loved the twist when the lady in the camel coat entered the hotel room, did not expect her to be part of a set up at all. I also like that the scheme isn't fully explained till the last chapter, or we see how Spike felt pain when hurting Giles. I think that really keeps the audience guessing and was quite intriguing.
    Those were my favorite parts of the fic. Nice twist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Priceless View Post
    I do wonder why Giles never thought to dust himself.
    Same reason he didn't off himself when he became a demon. There are other ways to fix the problem. Also survival instinct.

    Quote Originally Posted by flow View Post
    I also found it a little bit OOC for Buffy to try to stake him right away.
    As Giles said in the fic. She let him get away. If she really wanted him killed, he'd have been dead. That part was written from Giles' POV, and in his shock, he clearly couldn't think straight. He saw the stake and rushed outside. I'm very sure that if we were to read Buffy's POV in the scene, we'd see her hesitate.
    Made by Trickyboxes
    Halfrek gives Spike the curse that will change his entire life. Teenage Dirtbag

  2. #22
    Slayer Priceless's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    4,283
    Thanks
    9,059
    Thanked 8,007 Times in 3,842 Posts

    Default

    Didn't Giles giggle after Buffy told him about the bad they all had done in Grave? A giggle reads as mischievous to me, while a chuckle is more smug and sarcastic.
    He did, but I felt this was a different situation, with the characters in different places. The giggle in Grave was to release tension, to make Buffy feel better and that her situation wasn't so serious and could be solved. This situation was simply about Giles being injured. But i agree, Giles has been known to giggle.

    But Buffy's relationship with Giles has evolved to more than a job. They're friends. He's their older friend. Comforting him when he's upset is part of the deal.
    Buffy comforts him seriously in Passion, but I can't think of another time she comforts him without being snarky about it. If this is set in S4, I don't think they'd gotten to that 'friends' stage yet, as when she comments on him being too old for a sex life. Here the comfort just didn't ring true for me.

    Same reason he didn't off himself when he became a demon. There are other ways to fix the problem. Also survival instinct.
    That's an odd way to look at it, when he's a Watcher and his whole purpose is to make his Slayer a killing machine that asks no questions and believes all demons are evil and should be killed. But when he becomes a demon, he sees a different side. I think A New Man was a big step on the education of Giles, and perhaps after than he began to see demons as more two dimensional.

  3. #23
    Moderator Sosa lola's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    The basement
    Posts
    3,209
    Thanks
    2,024
    Thanked 2,905 Times in 1,145 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Priceless View Post
    Buffy comforts him seriously in Passion, but I can't think of another time she comforts him without being snarky about it. If this is set in S4, I don't think they'd gotten to that 'friends' stage yet, as when she comments on him being too old for a sex life. Here the comfort just didn't ring true for me.
    The fic is clearly set in S5. Buffy and Giles are deep into a family relationship by now. Their friendship grew tight by the middle of S1, and grew stronger in S2. Buffy comforts Giles plenty on times on the show because they are friends. Off top of my head, in The Dark Age after Jenny dumps him. Giles shouldn't be the only person who is there emotionally for Buffy, she also should put an effort into this friendship, and she does.

    They're not your typical Slayer and Watcher. Giles is as inadequate of a watcher (in the council's eyes) as Buffy is as a Slayer. A watcher should not have paternal feelings for his Slayer, and Giles clearly does.


    Quote Originally Posted by Priceless View Post
    That's an odd way to look at it, when he's a Watcher and his whole purpose is to make his Slayer a killing machine that asks no questions and believes all demons are evil and should be killed.
    Except that's not Giles. That's a typical watcher, and as I have said before, Giles is not just like any other watcher. It's why he was fired from his job. If Giles believes that all demons are evil, Angel would have been killed right away, he would certainly not think it was poetic that Angel has feelings for Buffy.
    Made by Trickyboxes
    Halfrek gives Spike the curse that will change his entire life. Teenage Dirtbag

  4. #24
    Well Spiked Stoney's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Blighty
    Posts
    8,057
    Thanks
    10,970
    Thanked 12,987 Times in 5,400 Posts

    Default

    I don't think Giles was giggling in Grave, but I'll reassess when I watch it again in the rewatch. I would have just said he's laughing. Giggling to me is a musically, high, light silly laugh. I'd never describe it as mischievous. A chuckle can just be a warm easy display of mirth. I'd only expect a grownup to giggle if they were being silly or were tipsy. Interesting to hear different takes on even little touches in these things.

    Nice to have another fic we've all enjoyed (so far).

  5. The Following User Says Thank You to Stoney For This Useful Post:

    Priceless (30-09-18)

  6. #25
    Scooby Gang Double Dutchess's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    466
    Thanks
    1,045
    Thanked 1,324 Times in 532 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sosa lola View Post
    There were a few typos, and I'm aching to tell the author about them so they could fix them, but I don't know if they're still in fandom. Still, the typos don't take away from the amazing writing.
    I'm quite certain they're still writing Giles stories -- there are two of them in this year's Summer of Giles.

    https://summer-of-giles.dreamwidth.org/741477.html

    The whole thing feels like an actual episode from S5 and that's what I love about a well written Gen fic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stoney View Post
    This is why I think you have to place it as early S5, before OOMM, but definitely before Family. It was also why it feels so strongly like A New Man, he was very 'S4' as you say.
    Oops, I overlooked that the story was set in S5. Spike did feel more like S4 Spike to me, but early S5 isn't too much of a stretch.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sosa lola View Post
    Chapter 3:
    I'm not sure Giles at the age of fourteen was the kind of badboy who would intimidate bouncers. Isn't 14 a bit too young? I figured he started the badboy persona at 16 or 17, but I guess nothing in canon suggest otherwise.
    That struck me as a bit young for intimidating bouncers too, soon-to-be-Ripper or not. I had a few other very minor nitpicks, but nothing that truly detracted from the story.

  7. The Following User Says Thank You to Double Dutchess For This Useful Post:

    Stoney (30-09-18)

  8. #26
    Slayer Priceless's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    4,283
    Thanks
    9,059
    Thanked 8,007 Times in 3,842 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sosa lola View Post
    The fic is clearly set in S5. Buffy and Giles are deep into a family relationship by now. Their friendship grew tight by the middle of S1, and grew stronger in S2. Buffy comforts Giles plenty on times on the show because they are friends. Off top of my head, in The Dark Age after Jenny dumps him. Giles shouldn't be the only person who is there emotionally for Buffy, she also should put an effort into this friendship, and she does.

    They're not your typical Slayer and Watcher. Giles is as inadequate of a watcher (in the council's eyes) as Buffy is as a Slayer. A watcher should not have paternal feelings for his Slayer, and Giles clearly does.




    Except that's not Giles. That's a typical watcher, and as I have said before, Giles is not just like any other watcher. It's why he was fired from his job. If Giles believes that all demons are evil, Angel would have been killed right away, he would certainly not think it was poetic that Angel has feelings for Buffy.
    I never see Giles and Buffy as friends. For me Giles always has that element of Watcher about him, and that difference in status doesn't easily translate into friendship. I don't think we can say what's 'typical' when it comes to the watcher/slayer relationship, as they've existed so long and we see so few of them. Kendra and her watcher seem to have a teacher/student relationship, and Wesley was also a disappointment to the Watchers Council. Faith's watcher was murdered and although some of the potentials had watchers, I don't think we learn much about their relationships. The leadership of the WC during Buffy's time were deeply patriarchal, and one assumes that's how they've always been. All I can say is that I don't read them as 'friends'.

    Angel is allowed to exist because he has a soul. Perhaps the demons Giles is turned into has a soul too? But otherwise Giles is very much in the 'kill first ask questions later' camp. I agree that as the show goes on, it does become a grey-er area, but Giles is never pro-demon, or even pro-Angel. It could be argued that not helping Angel when he rang about Fred is Giles reasserting his black and white views. Spike had a soul and was happy to have Robin kill him, because Giles believed Spike exerted too much influence over his slayer.

  9. #27
    Library Researcher Rebcake's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Location
    San Francisco, for now
    Posts
    234
    Thanks
    355
    Thanked 729 Times in 256 Posts

    Default

    I'm going to come out in favor of Giles giggling. Giles, like ASH, is a giggler, especially when tipsy. Knocked unconscious is a little like being tipsy, right?

    The typos also bothered me, but they seemed less of a problem as the story progressed.

    Y'all have pointed out the many, many good bits already, so I'm not sure I have much to add. I enjoy a fic that feels like the show, and this did that, echoing themes we've seen in actual episodes, and just being a fun romp, quickly resolved. Any knock to Quentin Travers is welcome! The Watchers Council, and especially Travers are always good villains, in my books.
    Weird love is better than no love — Buffy Summers

  10. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Rebcake For This Useful Post:

    GoSpuffy (02-10-18),Sosa lola (02-10-18),Stoney (02-10-18)

  11. #28
    Moderator Sosa lola's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    The basement
    Posts
    3,209
    Thanks
    2,024
    Thanked 2,905 Times in 1,145 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Priceless View Post
    I never see Giles and Buffy as friends.
    I guess that's where we differ. I see Buffy and Giles as close friends, with a touch of father/daughter relationship, especially in seasons 2 to 6.

    Quote Originally Posted by Priceless View Post
    But otherwise Giles is very much in the 'kill first ask questions later' camp.
    I disagree. Even when Giles learned about Angel being a vampire, he didn't demand Buffy to kill him. Xander was the one eager to have Buffy kill Angel, and when Xander looked at Giles for support, Giles clearly hesitated because Buffy had feelings for Angel, even though Giles knew that when it comes to vampires it is Buffy's duty to kill them.

    And the next scene, you see Giles with the Scoobies researching Angel. So he does not have a "kill first, ask questions later" attitude, even in the beginning of the series when he used to be stuffy and not that experienced.

    Quote Originally Posted by Priceless View Post
    but Giles is never pro-demon, or even pro-Angel. It could be argued that not helping Angel when he rang about Fred is Giles reasserting his black and white views.
    Again I disagree. Giles, after being tortured by Angel and had his girlfriend murdered by him, still found it in his heart to help him in Amends. He still agreed to have the ring of Amara be sent to him. He still kept his secret arrival from Buffy in Pangs upon Angel's request. There were no ill-feelings between Giles and Angel after Amends.

    The clear POV of AtS S5 is very anti-Scoobies. I won't use not helping Fred as an example against Giles when I don't know his side of the story. If we should take S8 as canon, then Giles was right. Willow was not within reach. She had disappeared for a whole year between S7 and S8 - during AtS S5 - so, Giles was not lying.


    Quote Originally Posted by Priceless View Post
    Spike had a soul and was happy to have Robin kill him, because Giles believed Spike exerted too much influence over his slayer.
    Did you forget the trigger? Giles' main objection all along was the trigger and his concerns were very valid. Though I disagree with his decision to help Wood get rid of Spike.

    I guess where we disagree on the matter is that I never saw the Scoobies' as black and white thinkers. They were friends with a werewolf, they were fine with Angel until he lost his soul and started terrorizing them, they were against the Initiative's way of thinking and helped free all the demons when they took down the Initiative in S4, Clem gets invited to Buffy's party and no one blinks an eyelid, Anya's demon friends get invited to the wedding and all the Scoobies - including Xander the supposedly demon-hater - treat them with nothing but kindness.
    Made by Trickyboxes
    Halfrek gives Spike the curse that will change his entire life. Teenage Dirtbag

  12. #29
    Slayer Priceless's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    4,283
    Thanks
    9,059
    Thanked 8,007 Times in 3,842 Posts

    Default

    I disagree. Even when Giles learned about Angel being a vampire, he didn't demand Buffy to kill him. Xander was the one eager to have Buffy kill Angel, and when Xander looked at Giles for support, Giles clearly hesitated because Buffy had feelings for Angel, even though Giles knew that when it comes to vampires it is Buffy's duty to kill them.

    And the next scene, you see Giles with the Scoobies researching Angel. So he does not have a "kill first, ask questions later" attitude, even in the beginning of the series when he used to be stuffy and not that experienced.
    I think the only reason Giles accepted Angel was because Angel had a soul.

    Again I disagree. Giles, after being tortured by Angel and had his girlfriend murdered by him, still found it in his heart to help him in Amends. He still agreed to have the ring of Amara be sent to him. He still kept his secret arrival from Buffy in Pangs upon Angel's request. There were no ill-feelings between Giles and Angel after Amends.

    The clear POV of AtS S5 is very anti-Scoobies. I won't use not helping Fred as an example against Giles when I don't know his side of the story. If we should take S8 as canon, then Giles was right. Willow was not within reach. She had disappeared for a whole year between S7 and S8 - during AtS S5 - so, Giles was not lying.
    Giles did help Angel in S3 and later, but I think because Angel had a soul. I can't see any other reason for Giles to help Angel other than because Giles differentiates between a souled and unsouled Angel.

    Did you forget the trigger? Giles' main objection all along was the trigger and his concerns were very valid. Though I disagree with his decision to help Wood get rid of Spike.
    I agree his concerns are valid, but he intentionally usurps Buffy's leadership, believing himself to be in the right and refusing to accept Buffy's reading of the situation.

    I guess where we disagree on the matter is that I never saw the Scoobies' as black and white thinkers. They were friends with a werewolf, they were fine with Angel until he lost his soul and started terrorizing them, they were against the Initiative's way of thinking and helped free all the demons when they took down the Initiative in S4, Clem gets invited to Buffy's party and no one blinks an eyelid, Anya's demon friends get invited to the wedding and all the Scoobies - including Xander the supposedly demon-hater - treat them with nothing but kindness.
    I don't think it's black and white, but I think the Watchers Council teach that it is, and it takes a while for Giles to break out of that. Oz had a soul, as far as I know Giles never met Clem, Anya has a soul even as a vengeance demon I think (?) I think the problem is that Giles went off the rails as a young man, and scared himself, so once back in the Watcher's Council fold, he embraced their teachings. It's only slowly, throughout the seven seasons, that he (and by extention the scoobies) slowly move into the grey areas. AtS of course does it much quicker, with one of Angel's sidekicks being a half-demon.

  13. #30
    Moderator Sosa lola's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    The basement
    Posts
    3,209
    Thanks
    2,024
    Thanked 2,905 Times in 1,145 Posts

    Default

    Sorry, Priceless, I completely missed your reply *beats self* Things are crazy at work lately. I will be back to complete the discussion soon.
    Made by Trickyboxes
    Halfrek gives Spike the curse that will change his entire life. Teenage Dirtbag

  14. #31
    Moderator Sosa lola's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    The basement
    Posts
    3,209
    Thanks
    2,024
    Thanked 2,905 Times in 1,145 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Priceless View Post
    I think the only reason Giles accepted Angel was because Angel had a soul.
    The reason Giles accepted Angel in S1 was because Angel was a good person who saved their lives and helped them out. The soul is the factor that helps Angel become a good person, but I don't think a soul would have been necessary to make Giles or another character accept Angel if Angel was a good person without it in the first place.



    Quote Originally Posted by Priceless View Post
    Giles differentiates between a souled and unsouled Angel.
    I agree. After S2. But it's not just Giles. All the characters do, including Angel himself.



    Quote Originally Posted by Priceless View Post
    I agree his concerns are valid, but he intentionally usurps Buffy's leadership, believing himself to be in the right and refusing to accept Buffy's reading of the situation.
    I agree.



    Quote Originally Posted by Priceless View Post
    I don't think it's black and white, but I think the Watchers Council teach that it is, and it takes a while for Giles to break out of that. Oz had a soul, as far as I know Giles never met Clem, Anya has a soul even as a vengeance demon I think (?) I think the problem is that Giles went off the rails as a young man, and scared himself, so once back in the Watcher's Council fold, he embraced their teachings. It's only slowly, throughout the seven seasons, that he (and by extention the scoobies) slowly move into the grey areas. AtS of course does it much quicker, with one of Angel's sidekicks being a half-demon.
    I don't think a soul is a very big deal to the characters as it is to the fans, except when it's about the vampire characters. We don't see the same argument about the soul in regards to demon characters like Anya and Clem. It's just an urgent matter when it's Angel or Spike. The soul didn't even enter the watchers' files until Angel showed up in S1 and told Buffy about it. It was an exciting new discovery that a soul can make a vampire a good person. I guess because of Angel's experience, the soul was mostly associated to him and other vampires, but not demons.
    Made by Trickyboxes
    Halfrek gives Spike the curse that will change his entire life. Teenage Dirtbag

  15. #32
    Slayer Priceless's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    4,283
    Thanks
    9,059
    Thanked 8,007 Times in 3,842 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sosa lola View Post
    Sorry, Priceless, I completely missed your reply *beats self* Things are crazy at work lately. I will be back to complete the discussion soon.
    Now worries, can't even remember what we were saying

  16. The Following User Says Thank You to Priceless For This Useful Post:

    Sosa lola (10-10-18)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •