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Thread: Buffy S12 :The Reckoning #4 Issue Discussion Thread(Full Spoilers)

  1. #341
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silver1 View Post
    Oh god, I can see in the years to come you're going to end up, very, very disappointed then. Imo there is no 'deeper meaning' to any of this, and there never was.
    I'm with you - if I can't find some reason that has any reflection on the real world then why did I spend all this money and all this time invested with the series and the comic books? I have always found that I could connected the Buffyverse in a very strong way to real life. Were there times when it was hell of a lot more powerful then this ending story? Of course - but even with this last four issues ending story there are elements that still force me to think about the characters as they would play out in a real world scenario.

    Was this a great ending story and finale to all the seasons - not for me, but still there are elements that I connect with. While Joss Whedon and Christos Gage chose to take Buffy back to her "I need time alone to figure out my life" if it was to service all the fans who have a preference for a love relationship the question of Buffy dealing with a life partner that has real limitations and impact on the human/woman side of her life exist. It's why, I liked the panel where she described her phases in life - these phases were real in the Buffy life as they would be real in the lives of people who have to deal with severe changes and tragedy in their lives. There are millions of people who had to struggle with addictions of all types and their life partners either made the choice to struggle with them or not to. Sometimes they triumphed and sometimes they lost - this is what Buffy & Spike had to deal with and together they won and made new lives for themselves.

    While it may come across as "easy plot device" the question is still a real one for Buffy and for millions of women - how would children impact their lives? do they want children or can they take care of a child? Buffy went through that trauma , even if the Robo Buffy pregnancy detracted from that story. The Robo Buffy can be judged as "lame" but the story and questions were still relevant just as seeing Dawn with baby Joyce would have had to impact on Buffy in this time.

    Well anyway - I definitely want to see meaning in this season ending - even if it's as simple as fighting to change the world and the future of humanity by defeating Harth and transforming the Frayverse future.
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  3. #342
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    Hmmm.

    Will post my thoughts on the last issue later (they're not good) but I just had to respond to this:

    Christos Gage

    @Christosgage Replying to @TessaMcG2 @joss

    No offense meant to Spuffy fans, I love the relationship, but I thought it was time for Buffy to be both single and in a good place because it's important to show she's capable of that & it's a good thing. Doesn't mean she won't be with someone later but she doesn't NEED to be.
    "In a good place" is a crap phrase to begin with - it generally means whatever the author's own personal bias is - and why is it important to show she's capable of being alone? Saying that the point of an arc is that a women doesn't NEED to be with someone is just as sexist as saying that she does. Do we EVER talk about male characters that way? "Oh, I just wanted to show that Superman didn't need Lois Lane - he's in a good place now!" Do you hear how condescending that is?

    This is just sexist blather-crap generally mouthed by mediocre male writers falsely appealing to "feminist" concerns to justify their lame-ass, sexist choices.

    Just be honest and say that Disney or Whedon ordered you to keep the love triangle open-ended and stop with the horses**t faux feminist excuses that a female superpowered lead should end up alone and in some dead-end job.

    Buffy should've ended with HER saving the f**king world, not Illyria - and not some depressing capitulation to federal/state/city authority by having the slayer women become cops. Screw that!

    Slayers are not normal women and they should embrace their power, not confine it. Buffy and Faith should be heading their own security agency, flying around the world like Andrew, fighting international terrorists and stopping bad guys. Now they're stuck in some lousy SFPD Supernatural Division - NOT good enough unless Batman and Superman hang up their capes and join the Fire Departments of Gotham City and Metropolis.

    Spuffy or no Spuffy, this ending was ridiculous and border-line offensive.
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  5. #343
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    Hardly There:
    Being a cop isn't fun. They'll both have to follow silly protocols of people that know less than they do. Without degrees, they'll be limited, especially only starting out at near middle age. This is the same girl who apparently had the skills to assemble a friggin' army. Jeez, just put her and Faith on the Watcher payroll.

    Joss is quite literally living a fanboy dream. To say "growing up" is complacency... well haha. I mean, did we not cheer on Willow in S9, fighting against these very things? So for ends, we have the epic tower jump in S5, the open road in S7... And Buffy and Faith staring at a badge that might as well be a DMP pin. Yeah, what a great, happy ending.
    Giles having been magically re-aged although it wasn`t possible to do that in season 11 and it wasn`t even necessary in season 12? Okay, I`ll take it. Grandfather-paradox cancelled without so much as an explanation? Yeah, I give you that. No one even died? After Joss Whedon has been called evil for twenty years, because he killed off beloved characters, I can understand his desire to try something different.

    But Buffy and Faith becoming cops? Really? Are you kidding me? I refuse to believe that this happened. Buffy and Faith who both never took orders? Never followed rules? Buffy proudly said once "I was never one to toe the line." And she said even more proudly on another occasion (being offered a job as a private cop with a much higher income than the SFPD will ever pay her) "I am The Slayer."

    Now she says "I am a cop?"

    This is ridiculous. It`s so ridiculous that I don`t have words for it.

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  7. #344
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    About the whole police thing. I kinda get where Whedon's coming from. Superhero genre has an ugly fascist undertone to it. Superheroes are all power and violence but without a shred of democratic legitimacy or oversight. So yeah, Buffy joining the police solves that problem, it integrates her into to the society and so on. Except, this the US we're talking about here. Now, pardon me yanks, I might be talking crap 'cause I've never been to the US (other side of the world, different culture, mentality - you catch my drift) but from my perspective, the act of joining the police in America doesn't make Buffy less fascist, it makes her more fascist than she's ever been because the police in the US is kinda crazy (insane brutality, militarization, BLM stuff etc)

    Then you have the previous seasons. In season 8 Buffy's at war with the US government. In season 9 being paid for slaying (Kennedy, deepscan etc) is an issue for her. In season 10 she goes all marital spat on Willow because Willow decided to work for the government. In season 11 the US government is basically her antagonist and slayers working for the law enforcement are portrayed as villains. And after all of this, plus all the stuff from the TV series, she suddenly decides to join the force? No. No, this is bullshit.

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  9. #345
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    Her joining the police is just such lazy writing. It’s like “oh, this is our last issue ever, so let’s give her a real job. Police officer will do.” Yes, it’s a callback to season 3, but it’s a lazy one. “She’s a police officer now -and so is Faith” just came out of nowhere. Why not just randomly make her a doctor instead?

    We don’t need to know what Buffy’s career is. It’s not like season 12 was building up towards her career or anything. The book would have been just as strong if her career was never touched on at all. It just feels so tacked on and unnecessary. And it’s not like the adventures of Buffy as a cop will ever get explored. Boom Studios is going back to her high school years, and in the super, super unlikely event that they *ever* explore the story post season 12 and keep the Dark Horse stuff intact, I guarantee that her being a cop with be the first thing they undo or retcon.

    Besides, she’s a former terrorist who has been on the wrong side of the law, mixed up in all the wrong shit on a number of occasions. It’s a miracle she can get a job serving coffee. Faith is an escaped convict.

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  11. #346
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    I haven't read the final issue yet, but based on what I've been reading here, I can't say I'm surprised by how it has ended. Buffy ends up choosing a "normal" life? Check. Door left open for future Spuffy, Bangel, or possibly even both? Check. Illyria conveniently out of the way? Check. No clever Scoobie plan behind it all, after all? Check. It all sounds pretty disappointing. But I hope there will still be some things to like in the issue when I get to read it (tomorrow).

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    Quote Originally Posted by American Aurora View Post
    Hmmm.

    Will post my thoughts on the last issue later (they're not good) but I just had to respond to this:



    "In a good place" is a crap phrase to begin with - it generally means whatever the author's own personal bias is - and why is it important to show she's capable of being alone? Saying that the point of an arc is that a women doesn't NEED to be with someone is just as sexist as saying that she does. Do we EVER talk about male characters that way? "Oh, I just wanted to show that Superman didn't need Lois Lane - he's in a good place now!" Do you hear how condescending that is?

    This is just sexist blather-crap generally mouthed by mediocre male writers falsely appealing to "feminist" concerns to justify their lame-ass, sexist choices.

    Just be honest and say that Disney or Whedon ordered you to keep the love triangle open-ended and stop with the horses**t faux feminist excuses that a female superpowered lead should end up alone and in some dead-end job.

    Buffy should've ended with HER saving the f**king world, not Illyria - and not some depressing capitulation to federal/state/city authority by having the slayer women become cops. Screw that!

    Slayers are not normal women and they should embrace their power, not confine it. Buffy and Faith should be heading their own security agency, flying around the world like Andrew, fighting international terrorists and stopping bad guys. Now they're stuck in some lousy SFPD Supernatural Division - NOT good enough unless Batman and Superman hang up their capes and join the Fire Departments of Gotham City and Metropolis.

    Spuffy or no Spuffy, this ending was ridiculous and border-line offensive.
    Have to say - that I'm so glad you are feeling this level of passion - I actually deleted my rant on how Buffy has been used by the Male Element and how she has been used so often as a Sex Victim and Sexual symbol. And Buffy and Faith ending up as trying to be Cops - with no offense intended to the profession and all the men and women who are Good Cops 'cause there are a hell of a lot of Bad Cops as well - WTF can't Buffy and the Slayers be respected as the great Heroic Super Warriors that they actually represent. Reminds me of the idea of Fear and Bias against strong women throughout history.

    The Angel series could not have Illyria in all her Powers - Nope, she had to be Cut Down To Size so that Angel could continue to be the Head Honcho in the series - and how about this series and our Champion Angel casually dismissing her to that hell dimension to battle all alone or for whenever he feels like it's time to go searching for her. Angel Red Flagged that the Illyria was there to be used as he demanded of her so her ending was exactly what I excepted but what does it say about Angel as the Heroic Champion and Male. And it's problematic for Buffy to just go along with what Angel decided regarding her potential rescue. Illyria was just finally treated as little more than a easy out plot device - this is the same character that accepted her potential death to stay with Severin so the he could complete the Energy Bomb in season nine.

    As for the comment from CG regarding Buffy being in a Good Place - why can't she be in a good place as a Life Partner with Spike? Did this series really need Buffy to return to single status what makes Single Buffy better and more mature than Life Partner Buffy? I know one thing after having lived all my years - my husband/life partner are much better and stronger together I am not diminished by being in a loving and supportive relationship.

    The Buffy no partner - true or not ordered - it sure as hell comes off as let's keep all the fans satisfied - it sucks as way to tell the ending of the Buffyverse comic book seasons same as it sucked as a plot element to end the series.

    My final conclusion - is that The Twilight Times gave us the most honest reveal on how Buffy was used as Sexual Symbol and how way down deep in the place people hide things that they are not comfortable with - Buffy was used by men and symbolic of their power needs. Every time I think of how Buffy was used in The Twilight Times it makes me really angry and disappointed.

    Great comments AA -

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    Faith being a cop stretches credibility for obvious reasons. Buffy...maybe not as much as some think. Whedon shows tend to distrust corporations, "the system" what have you. The current show his brother is running is about such an organization and every season something always stops Coulson from rebuilding it. The "real" SHIELD, the ATCU, LMDs destroy their credibility; they've gotten derailed like 5 times now. But they still have a few geniuses a master spy, plus high tech gear. So they're underdogs but not truly on the fringe for the most part. Now, fighting against the status quo is hardly only a Whedon thing, but Whedon seems particularly fixated on that.

    Over on Fox, The Gifted protagonists spent most of Season 1 fighting against that world's version of SHIELD. They have more powers but really sell the desperation bit. They lose one building it's a major loss. They spend most of their time hiding or running. Even when they complete a mission they usually lose in some other way. Most of their missions are a desperate reaction to humans going after the mutants.

    Buffy in the show was sort of middle ground. Just a girl with a few friends, two vamps and a librarian. Though for the most part the humans blind eye and seasonal rise and fall of the Big Bads gave her a break at times; she even got recognized at the end of high school. She consistently had Joyce's home. She struggled and resented being a massive group leader in Season 7. Season 8 dialed that up with a literal castle and troops. She later lost it. It also exposed vamps and the like to the public so The System had change. The military and government reacted badly. On a more grounded level, S9 had Buffy make a cop friend and mentioned Kate got her job back in the other title. In Season 10, the very same military needed Buffy's help and she reluctantly agreed. She gave them a seat at the Magic Council table. S11 the government was our Big Bad. She stopped it; but it was just a faction, Riley and Sam will make them place nice.

    Buffy tried to be a major leader, General, in S7-S8. It didn't work and caused some of her biggest mistakes. As much of a rule breaker she's been to the Watchers, the Slayer Line, some form of The System has to be in place. She's no anarchist but doesn't want to be as big as she was in S8. So she stays on the community level as a different type of cop. Some authority and trusted by those like Dowling but she's still able to have a regular life outside of being a Slayer cop.
    Last edited by DanSlayer; Today at 01:56 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DanSlayer View Post
    Faith being a cop stretches credibility for obvious reasons. Buffy...maybe not as much as some think. Whedon shows tend to distrust corporations, "the system" what have you. The current show his brother is running is about such an organization and every season something always stops Coulson from rebuilding it The "real" SHIELD, the ATCU, LMDs destroy their credibility; they've gotten derailed like 5 times now. But they still have a few geniuses a master spy, plus high tech gear. So they're underdogs but not truly on the fringe for the most part. Now, fighting against the status quo is hardly only a Whedon thing, but Whedon seems particularly fixated on that.

    Over on Fox, The Gifted protagonists spent most of Season 1 fighting against that world's version of SHIELD. They have more powers but really sell the desperation bit. They lose one building it's a major loss. They spend most of their time hiding or running. Even when they complete a mission they usually lose in some other way. Most of their missions are a desperate reaction to humans going after the mutants.

    Buffy in the show was sort of middle ground. Just a girl with a few friends, two vamps and a librarian. Though for the most part the humans blind eye and seasonal rise and fall of the Big Bads gave her a break at times; she even got recognized at the end of high school. She consistently had Joyce's home. She struggled and resented being a massive group leader in Season 7. Season 8 dialed that up with a literal castle and troops. She later lost it. It also exposed vamps and the like to the public so The System had change. The military and government reacted badly. On a more grounded level, S9 had Buffy make a cop friend and mentioned Kate got her job back in the other title. In Season 10, the very same military needed Buffy's help and she reluctantly agreed. She gave them a seat at the Magic Council table. S11 the government was our Big Bad. She stopped it; but it was just a faction, Riley and Sam will make them place nice.

    Buffy tried to be a major leader, General, in S7-S8. It didn't work and caused some of her biggest mistakes. As much of a rule breaker she's been to the Watchers, the Slayer Line, some form of The System has to be in place. She's no anarchist but doesn't want to be as big as she was in S8. So she stays on the community level as a different type of cop. Some authority and trusted by those like Dowling but she's still able to have a regular life outside of being a Slayer cop.
    Why do people act like she can't have a regular life and the supernatural one and hasn't done so for 7 years of TV show? She could have a regular life as a librarian, a doctor, a florist or anything at all. She went to school and college and had her slaying life. Held jobs and still helped people. The only time it caused major disruption is when The Trio was specifically targeting her, but that could happen as a policewoman as well.

    That's a pretty dumbed-down version of the S7 and S8 dynamic.

    She could literally be anything in the world and still slay. Being a cop doesn't legitimize her or free anything up, quite the opposite. All she needs is a paycheck and with the re-established watcher council, she and Faith could provide input on a new and better one, setting it up as it should be instead of what it was. No, instead the choose the one profession that makes the LEAST sense because that is what DH does apparently.

    And don't get me started on that good place and alone garbage. She's been there before in S7 which I'm really beginning to think Joss doesn't consider canon anymore outside of the slayer spell.

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    Could she be a florist or something? Sure. But they went with cop. And she always had difficulty with balancing her Slayer role and things like paying the property tax.

    Watchers are still in a weak position and were never officially recognized by the world at large as mentioned in Checkpoint. I'm sure Andrew would lean on them for advice but interm they need to do something for themselves. Maybe this new supernatural policing policy is one step in gradually changing the world to Fray's utopian land.

    I'm not saying it is the best choice but I can see some reasons why they did so.

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    Other than first responder I always imagined Buffy's active Slaying retirement gig to be as a self-defense instructor.

    Or a DJ. Just cuz.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DanSlayer View Post
    Could she be a florist or something? Sure. But they went with cop. And she always had difficulty with balancing her Slayer role and things like paying the property tax.
    Yes, the one thing she is canonically against and the closest they could get to redoing the Initiative storyline without redoing it.

    If she was worried about tax, she'd leave SF. And she apparently had no issues once she got a paying job, so no, not "always".

    Watchers are still in a weak position and were never officially recognized by the world at large as mentioned in Checkpoint. I'm sure Andrew would lean on them for advice but interm they need to do something for themselves. Maybe this new supernatural policing policy is one step in gradually changing the world to Fray's utopian land.

    I'm not saying it is the best choice but I can see some reasons why they did so.
    Watchers ARE in a weak position...kinda the point. For all the talk about MEN OF POWER instead of rebuilding the Council with women in power, they slap the girls into SFPD and still let men run the show. Protected by Riley and Sam? The same people who, along with the entire US military, were easily shuttled off by unknown groups in S12?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by KingofCretins View Post
    Other than first responder I always imagined Buffy's active Slaying retirement gig to be as a self-defense instructor.

    Or a DJ. Just cuz.
    Self-Defense Instructor, that I could buy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HardlyThere View Post
    Yes, the one thing she is canonically against and the closest they could get to redoing the Initiative storyline without redoing it.

    If she was worried about tax, she'd leave SF. And she apparently had no issues once she got a paying job, so no, not "always".



    Watchers ARE in a weak position...kinda the point. For all the talk about MEN OF POWER instead of rebuilding the Council with women in power, they slap the girls into SFPD and still let men run the show. Protected by Riley and Sam? The same people who, along with the entire US military, were easily shuttled off by unknown groups in S12?

    - - - Updated - - -



    Self-Defense Instructor, that I could buy.
    Tax is just an example. She felt a push and pull between wanting to help and save people but at other times wishing it wasn't all on her/didn't want to be a Slayer at all at certain points. She's still a Slayer at the end of of both Season 7 and Season 12 but it's not all on her anymore.

    Yes, but Giles want them rebuilt and nobody disagrees with him. The only other really studious type that could carry on after Giles is Willow; busy enough with her own projects. Buffy and Faith don't have the patience for all the tediousness of bureaucracy, bookkeeping and such. Andrew seems to enjoy it. Just because Andrew got named as the successor doesn't mean Buffy and Faith cannot have input/influence on the new Watchers.

    They have enough protection to apparently erase all traces of Faith's record. And the point is going forward Riley and Sam will have a role in the government so not all politicians and soldiers will be forever antagonistic to Buffy/Slayers/Magic etc. Willow created a centre to start change for women/witches. Riley and Sam might be able to do the same on the governmental side.
    Last edited by DanSlayer; Today at 04:16 AM.

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