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Thread: Buffy S12 :The Reckoning #4 Issue Discussion Thread(Full Spoilers)

  1. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stoney View Post
    Because I could get sent off on a ridiculous tangent based on someone else's reading and spend the last issue pointlessly gawping at every indistinct blob in the background trying to work out who it is again.
    Fair enough. It's just occurred to me that in searching vainly for a body and hoping it wasn't someone we loved we were all in the same position as Xander looking for Anya in Chosen. I have a conspiracy theory - Gage isn't just writing The Reckoning, he's also writing the bloody reviews! They're planting red herrings - fans are part of an interactive comic

    I'm gonna nurture this theory (I'm bored and procrastinating). Here's the most ridiculous tangent ever Stoney. It's just for you - follow it at your peril.

    The Giles mini begins with this line: "I am that guy, a death merchant, dooming everything I touch." [Original emphasis]. Google "Death Merchant" and the first hit is a Wiki page (note: the mini references the internet via "the Webb Bros" and at the end all the computers are replaced by books):

    "The Death Merchant is the title and lead character of a series of men's action-adventure books written by Joseph Rupert Rosenberger and published by Pinnacle Books from 1971 to 1988. Richard Joseph Camellion, as described in the books, is a master of disguise, the martial arts and wet-work. Cynical and lethal in equal measure, his normal employer was the CIA - at a cost of $100,000 a mission.[1]

    He is described on the back of the books as "Richard Camellion, master of death, destruction, and disguise. He gets the dirty jobs, the impossible missions, the operations that cannot be handled by the FBI, CIA, or any other legal or extra-legal force. He is a man without a face, without a single identifying characteristic...except that he succeeds by being a Merchant of Death!"

    Camellion = Chameleon. Rupert = Giles; Rosenberger? Pfft! I can't do much with "Richard" - except to point out it a) it shortens to "Dick" (tee-hee!) b) it's the mayor's name (who turns up unexpectedly in The Reckoning). I could re-frame "Dick" as the phallus but I lost the moment for serious contemplation by using the words "tee-hee". Giles and Willow are the only two BtVS characters with a "presence" in the mini. OR ARE THEY? Joseph is Joss's real name;
    JW has a reputation as "a death merchant" - I think the "author" is disguising himself as various characters (chameleon-like). With regard to the plot of the mini, does Giles have a "face", isn't this why he's given a mirror? He is - literally involved in "wet-work" - the speech is made as he dives into the ocean.

    Aurora - if you're reading this and can suspend incredulity, I think there's an argument to be made that the mini is structured as an ouroboros (Giles' "chasing demons is chasing one's own tale") inasmuch as it begins in media res, then takes us back to the beginning (we see the tale's moment of conception. If I hadn't used "tee-hee" I'd mention Freud's primal scene but I did so I can't) until we reach the point at which it started. In short, it's a tale with a tail - or a coda. (serious point over). Hence Jeanty's reference to the coda in OMWF. Second serious point - if there is a loop in The Reckoning, then there could also be a coda (perhaps The Reckoning IS a coda).

    Silver - this is the grand-daddy of overthinking! I hope you're duly impressed! Admittedly, I can't take credit for all of it - much of it is caffeine induced. See my avatar? "Danger: Chemical Storage".

    Pricey - they're still on the roof mate. That's the REAL exit.

    Sigh...I'm going to drink less coffee and go back to writing boring emails and strategy reports. I feel a second career emerging - either as a fan-fic writer or a hack producing fake news!

    In all seriousness, I'm hoping the Death Merchant reference is a coincidence. If it isn't, I'm worried and serious paranoia is surfacing. I'm also worried that I could make a serious theoretical argument about it. I do think there's more to the The Reckoning than just plot. I think it's a comment on authorship and a critique of online fandom and communities (such as this). Sadly, I find it interesting - much more interesting than the actual stories.
    Last edited by TriBel; 14-09-18 at 11:04 AM.

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  3. #142
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    Tribel, as usual you've put a great deal of thought into this and I'm praying the story will pay off. I'm staying spoiler free as I can't bear the pain.

    So Gage, as well as JW, has now abandoned ship? They're behaving like a group of politicians that no longer want to associate themselves with a policy they once fiercely advocated but the ramifications of which they can foresee.

    Shall we form a spoiler-free club on the roof of the apartment block in Fog City? Let's open a bar. The margaritas are on me.
    Last edited by debbicles; 14-09-18 at 11:54 AM.
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  5. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by debbicles View Post
    Tribel, as usual you've put a great deal of thought into this and I'm praying the story will pay off. I'm staying spoiler free as I can't bear the pain.

    So Gage has now abandoned ship as well as JW?
    I've no bloody idea! In all honesty, except as an academic exercise, I stopped taking it seriously with the mini. As academic exercises, I've enjoyed A11, Giles and The Reckoning. I'm not stupid but nor am I bright enough to read everything in that it's possible to read in. I'm with Pricey, I'm clinging to 11 as a life raft and refusing to go down with the ship. Wanna get on our door? There's plenty of room. You're Kate Winslet. LOL! plenty of ice for the drinks!
    Last edited by TriBel; 14-09-18 at 12:00 PM.

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    Yay debbicles! Get that cocktail shaker going, lets have little umbrellas and cherries on plastic swords. I'll be happy to sit on the roof, though I'd rather hide in the basement (a much more Spike/Buffy space). Lets wind up the radiogram and get some tunes going. Drown those sorrows before they get to us

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    Quote Originally Posted by debbicles View Post
    Tribel, as usual you've put a great deal of thought into this and I'm praying the story will pay off. I'm staying spoiler free as I can't bear the pain.

    So Gage, as well as JW, has now abandoned ship? They're behaving like a group of politicians that no longer want to associate themselves with a policy they once fiercely advocated but the ramifications of which they can foresee.

    Shall we form a spoiler-free club on the roof of the apartment block in Fog City? Let's open a bar. The margaritas are on me.
    Again, in all seriousness (this time). A11 begins with a scrying mirror - also known as a black mirror. I don't want to make comparisons between Brooker's Black Mirror and BtVS but I do wonder whether they're connected by the utopia/dystopia dyad? I'm sure the ending of the mini is utopic. There's also the idea (which is where I think Brooker's title comes from) that once you turn off technology you see yourself reflected in the screen. I don't think the fact the sorcerer refers to "lost credits" is a coincidence, nor is the reference to other films nor the self-referencing.

    They're behaving like a group of politicians that no longer want to associate themselves with a policy they once fiercely advocated but the ramifications of which they can foresee.
    It could simply be that Whedon was hopeful when BtVS started - he's less so now. I just don't know. The stuff that's coming out from Twitter etc. isn't really saying much - in fact they all seem to be contradicting each other. Maybe that's deliberate and they don't want to "reveal the reveal", maybe they don't care.

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  11. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by TriBel View Post
    I've no bloody idea! In all honesty, except as an academic exercise, I stopped taking it seriously with the mini. As academic exercises, I've enjoyed A11, Giles and The Reckoning. I'm not stupid but nor am I bright enough to read everything in that it's possible to read in. I'm with Pricey, I'm clinging to 11 as a life raft and refusing to go down with the ship. Wanna get on our door? There's plenty of room. You're Kate Winslet. LOL! plenty of ice for the drinks!


    I'm sure I don't know what you could be suggesting!!!!

    Pricey, you're right about that basement. It's official - NEW VENUE for the end of series party:

    House rave in the cellar, everyone!!! Open invitation!



    (Putting on a brave face.)

    One story I read a while ago had the theme that black mirrors showed gargoyles in their true form, as mighty angels.
    Last edited by debbicles; 14-09-18 at 04:34 PM.
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  13. #147
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    I'm not going back to lurking in the shadows for you all, I'm having a bbq on the roof! Plus, I'll shove Winslet off the door into the icey depths if she comes anywhere near me, I'll even take her whistle.

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    Just remember one thing. No matter what happens or who dies - it can all be undone in the future. That's the beauty and the curse of supernatural stories - no one really dies.

    I, myself, am more fearful for Angel than Spike. Just a feeling. But perhaps both vamps will go down together. Or become human.

    I like TriBel's idea of the ouroboros for Season Twelve - the tale chasing the tail chasing the tale.

    I still think the "soul" and "time" will be the two biggies in the final issue. Shake that Eight Ball snow globe, Whedon, and reset the past!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stoney View Post
    I'm not going back to lurking in the shadows for you all, I'm having a bbq on the roof! Plus, I'll shove Winslet off the door into the icey depths if she comes anywhere near me, I'll even take her whistle.
    Whoa there, Stoney, I always had you down as a peace loving sorta gal. Where's this sudden urge come from???:
    : you'll upset Priceless' cocktail doilies and stuff.

    I'm just thinking (if that's not too strong a word for what I do) about TriBel's remark in an earlier post in this thread about how this season is memory in its most reductionist form. But memory is spin, as (I think) SpuffyGlitz said here as well and shows our values. I'm not quite sure where I'm going with this but I'm not going to put too much faith in the villains' perspective being the actual outcome, i.e. Harmony's story. Just a gut feeling, nothing more.
    You know what I am. You've always known. You come to me all the same.

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  19. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by American Aurora View Post
    Just remember one thing. No matter what happens or who dies - it can all be undone in the future. That's the beauty and the curse of supernatural stories - no one really dies.

    I, myself, am more fearful for Angel than Spike. Just a feeling. But perhaps both vamps will go down together. Or become human.

    I like TriBel's idea of the ouroboros for Season Twelve - the tale chasing the tail chasing the tale.

    I still think the "soul" and "time" will be the two biggies in the final issue. Shake that Eight Ball snow globe, Whedon, and reset the past!
    But this reminds me too much to Marvel and DC's constant resurrections. First time it happens, you go along with it, but as it happens again and again it becomes boring and a little annoying. Resetting entire years of ongoing continuity or resurrecting characters like crazy is not my ideal turn of events and I hope they won't go that road. We have had a fair share of resurrections by now, and the more they resurrect characters, the less exciting the Buffyverse becomes. Giles, The Master, The Mayor, Spike, Buffy, Warren... they have played that card more than enough and I can't say I'm happy with it.
    Resetting is something already made in After the Fall series. Once is good, but yet again once more... I don't know, it feels like disappointing. My two cents

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  21. #151
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    The van is just outside the centre. He could rush in at any time. He's already told Buffy how much he loves her, that she's like a daughter to him, and he's sweating profusely watching the action. He may just decide he'd rather sacrifice himself then watch Buffy sacrifice herself. He wanted to face The Master in Prophecy Girl and Buffy had to knock him out. He went to face Angel after Jenny was murdered, so he has a history.
    I'm still bothered by Giles and the van - the van because of the connection to the Trio and the illustrations on the side. Is it this?

    mr-little-with-hammer.jpg

    If so - he has his own blog!

    https://www.westernexterminator.com/...now-mr-little/

    I was first referred to as “Kernel Kleenup” and then “Inspector Holmes” (a distant American cousin of Sherlock) after a 1964 television renaming contest. Fortunately my colleagues at Western Exterminator, especially Bob Strom, decided that Mr. Little or The Little Man best suited my personality and the rest, as they say, is history.
    Isn't "Little Man" what they used to call Jonathan?

    Sigh...I wish The Reckoning had been 12 issues.

    Sandman

    But this reminds me too much to Marvel and DC's constant resurrections. First time it happens, you go along with it, but as it happens again and again it becomes boring and a little annoying. Resetting entire years of ongoing continuity or resurrecting characters like crazy is not my ideal turn of events and I hope they won't go that road.
    Several ways of looking at it:

    a) The writers lack imagination
    b) It's a genre convention
    c) They're deliberately not referring to anything outside of representation - be it BtVS's own stories or other stories.

    I'll laugh if the "history" or "memory" Harth is accessing is 20+ years of BtVS DVDs and comics (which, in effect, it is) that he found in Mel's library!
    Last edited by TriBel; 15-09-18 at 09:01 AM.

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  23. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by TriBel View Post
    I'm still bothered by Giles and the van - the van because of the connection to the Trio and the illustrations on the side. Is it this?

    mr-little-with-hammer.jpg

    If so - he has his own blog!

    https://www.westernexterminator.com/...now-mr-little/

    Isn't "Little Man" what they used to call Jonathan?
    Mystery solved! I think Jeanty had a little fun replacing a rat for a cat - because Gage loves cats! Maybe he's a dog person.
    My Tumblr: Dog is My Copilot


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    It seems a bit strange as a nerdy reference to me. The ilustration on the van definitely looks like Mr. Little's. I don't know if there's a message there. Could it be that Andrew is the Exterminator, since Buffy ask him «Is that suppose to be you?». In that case, I don't think there's a hidden meaning or something. As for Giles... him saying how much he loves Buffy like a daughter, or even handing over Watcher's Council authority to Andrew... all of those are reasons to fear for Giles. But, like I said, they already killed him and then resurrected him. Both Killing him again (even if for good) or sending him through the portal would be quite a deja vu. I don't think Giles will play a dramatic role in the season's finale, beyond what he already said (or Andrew, for that matter). It looks more like an obvious red herring to me. But we'll see.

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  27. #154
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    Buffy, Fray, the Scoobies, and the Slayers are in an epic battle against Harth, and his army of baddies. His attempt to steal the power of the Slayers has brought Buffy and her crew to the turning point that they have been trying desperately to avoid. With all other options spent, it is only Buffy and her sacrifice that can save the world . . .The entire Buffyverse is united here in the culmination of all Buffy seasons! https://www.darkhorse.com/Comics/300...he-Reckoning-4

    It could be that the van and similar call backs are there simply to evoke the presence of key characters (I don't see how they could find space for the "entire Buffyverse".

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    Hey! They've got my avatar

    Just four days to go

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    It could be that the van and similar call backs are there simply to evoke the presence of key characters (I don't see how they could find space for the "entire Buffyverse".
    Do you see the van as a call back to Jonathan? I can't think of anything that references Wesley or Cordy, though I may have missed it. It would surprise me if Jonathan get's a reference and they do not. I'll have to read the first three issues again to see if I've missed references to other characters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Priceless View Post
    Do you see the van as a call back to Jonathan? I can't think of anything that references Wesley or Cordy, though I may have missed it. It would surprise me if Jonathan get's a reference and they do not. I'll have to read the first three issues again to see if I've missed references to other characters.
    I'm sure I've seen that quote previously. I remember thinking Illyria was "channeling" Anya in #1. Maybe it's hyperbole on the part of Dark Horse. The van - as I recall, the first time we see it is Life Serial and we don't see Warren immediately - he's hidden because he's working under the van!

    Betta

    Mystery solved! I think Jeanty had a little fun replacing a rat for a cat - because Gage loves cats! Maybe he's a dog person.
    It's not a rat - it's Menace Mouse: "I am Mr. Little, the man in the top hat with hammer in hand having a heart-to-heart talk with my little friend Menace Mouse".

    Staking a mouse might not go down well with Disney!

    I'm not saying it is this logo - but it's the closest I've got.

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    I'm sure I've seen that quote previously. I remember thinking Illyria was "channeling" Anya in #1. Maybe it's hyperbole on the part of Dark Horse. The van - as I recall, the first time we see it is Life Serial and we don't see Warren immediately - he's hidden because he's working under the van!
    Illyria is channeling Anya, but is she also channeling Cordy, who always said whatever was on her mind? I'll have to go back and re-read

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  36. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Priceless View Post
    Illyria is channeling Anya, but is she also channeling Cordy, who always said whatever was on her mind? I'll have to go back and re-read
    Could be. Can you remember how they used to do that ridiculously quick montage in the opening credits? I'm wondering if it's the comic equivalent of that? Condense and displace - it would work (lol! It's also how dreams work!). Meh...it's probably just DH getting carried away!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Actually - although I've seen the Anya/Illyria comparison made elsewhere, Cordy would make more sense because of the Angel aspect.

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    Editor's Note Comics


    @EdsNoteComics
    44m44 minutes ago
    More
    @Christosgage I just finished Buffy. Very strange to say goodbye to this story. You hit the exact right beat at the end.

    Once it hits stands, I have one big question. But this was a phenomenal run. Thanks for everything.


    I wonder what that one big question is?? But it's good to hear someone thinks 'you hit the exact right beat at the end'

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