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Thread: Joss Sci-Fi Drama The Nevers Ordered at HBO.

  1. #21
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    He just needs to do something different. If he just relies on the same character archetypes he always does then it'll just be derivative. People have caught onto the fact that he recycles the same types of characters again in all his shows and doesn't appear to know how to write anybody different. I also hope he really scales back on the Whedon-isms and remembers how to write good dialogue again. In Buffy it never felt forced when the characters spoke in "Buffy Speak" and not every single line was a setup for a joke or a punch line. In his MCU scripts, particularly Age of Ultron and most definitely his pilot of Agents of Shield, the Whedon-isms felt so forced and were incredibly noticeable and distracting. I also hope that he isn't so arrogant that he won't take on board criticisms of his writing because a lot of them are valid. No, I don't agree with the things people got offended over in his Age of Ultron script, but his Wonder Woman script was legitimately really sexist and awful and I agree that his idea of an "empowered woman" is stale and dated at this point. I think he got way too happy with himself, probably fuelled by this "Joss is God" mentality a lot of his fanbase had for years, and it seemed like he is way too dismissive of criticisms against him. I hope some of it's finally got through to him. Not only because I think his POV should have evolved by now but because I think he got incredibly lazy in his plotting and world-building at the expense of writing "what he cared about" and thought he could get away with it because people would just love it no matter what.

    The main negative predictions I've seen people make about the show is that it's just going to be a bunch of "waif-like" white women in bonnets with superpowers and that at least one of them will be incredibly mentally damaged/possibly insane. I think whether or not this is Whedon's last chance really depends on if he can actually surprise people and do the unexpected.
    Last edited by vampmogs; 14-07-18 at 04:26 PM.
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    I think he's mostly used up at this point, I'll be honest. I will probably check out first episode since I already sub HBO, but not out of an astounding degree of damns given.

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    Ten years ago I would've been excited about this but now? Meh. I don't even what happened, it's, like, I don't have the patience/attention span to watch TV shows anymore. I'd rather play video games, noodle on guitar or just browse the internet and listen to music. Can't really explain it, honestly.

    True Detective
    That was the last show I've seen in full. I thought it was absolute trash. It was just so boring and bland and pander-y? People accuse teen-dramas and whatnot of pandering to teenage girls (as if there's something wrong with that) but when the pandered to are American middle-aged dudes it's suddenly high art and golden age of television. It's bullshit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vampmogs View Post
    He just needs to do something different. If he just relies on the same character archetypes he always does then it'll just be derivative. People have caught onto the fact that he recycles the same types of characters again in all his shows and doesn't appear to know how to write anybody different. I also hope he really scales back on the Whedon-isms and remembers how to write good dialogue again. In Buffy it never felt forced when the characters spoke in "Buffy Speak" and not every single line was a setup for a joke or a punch line. In his MCU scripts, particularly Age of Ultron and most definitely his pilot of Agents of Shield, the Whedon-isms felt so forced and were incredibly noticeable and distracting. I also hope that he isn't so arrogant that he won't take on board criticisms of his writing because a lot of them are valid. No, I don't agree with the things people got offended over in his Age of Ultron script, but his Wonder Woman script was legitimately really sexist and awful and I agree that his idea of an "empowered woman" is stale and dated at this point. I think he got way too happy with himself, probably fuelled by this "Joss is God" mentality a lot of his fanbase had for years, and it seemed like he is way too dismissive of criticisms against him. I hope some of it's finally got through to him. Not only because I think his POV should have evolved by now but because I think he got incredibly lazy in his plotting and world-building at the expense of writing "what he cared about" and thought he could get away with it because people would just love it no matter what.

    The main negative predictions I've seen people make about the show is that it's just going to be a bunch of "waif-like" white women in bonnets with superpowers and that at least one of them will be incredibly mentally damaged/possibly insane. I think whether or not this is Whedon's last chance really depends on if he can actually surprise people and do the unexpected.
    So... if we strike the "bonnets" part, just like at least half of current superhero/supernatural/SciFi shows with prominent female roles? (Depending on one's definition of "waif-like", that is. But people tend to use it in a very broad sense to mean any thin woman in Hollywood... and that's the majority of actresses in Hollywood.)
    You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

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    From the sounds of it, there will be lots of roles for women, so I am hoping there will be a lot of different colours, ages, sizes, shapes and sexualities. In fact I'm pretty sure of it in today's climate. I doubt a modern show could be made without a cross section of society represented

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    I'll give Nevers a chance, hell I'll even watch Pippa Smith. I secretly wished Dollhouse had been made on HBO with a different actress as Echo and James Marsters as an older Doll. So I'm excited to see what nonsense Joss will come up with next. If its bad I can just MST the crap out of it.

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    I never watched anything of Joss after Angel. Which, to be frank, I haven't even particularly enjoyed. Are his other works worth of watching?

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    Quote Originally Posted by TriBel View Post
    So...The Wire wasn't decent to good? Similarly, The Sopranos?
    Which premiered first, those shows or SFU's finale?

    There once was a time when HBO always delivered good content. You had Sopranos, The Wire (early seasons), SFU, Spawn, Lifestories, comedy specials and on and on. Rarely were there misses. Now, for every The Night Of, there's a Newsroom or Hung or Ballers or Vinyl. Only from HBO would something like Newsroom or GoT get nominations much less win. Their mantra now is throw a ton of money at production and hope people are too swept away by the set pieces to notice the gaps. It works, so I guess I shouldn't fault them too hard.

    HBO still kicks out good stuff from time to time but they are not what they used to be back when they had to work for recognition. Just like Joss. There are sparks of his old self in his recent work. The Superman video at the beginning of Justice League is the best part of the movie, bad CGI aside. Same with the hammer scene in Ultron. He's still capable in brief flashes of his old self. But for both those scenes, there's the rest of those movies which were stale and sucky.

    This concept just sounds like BTVS S8 set in the 1800s. I actually like the original concept of Twist, some young woman turning to a Victorian Batman to ward off badness. That was intriguing and possibly different. From this new synopsis, it sounds like standard Joss. A band of superpowered girls on the run from bad guys, probably because they have powers and are thus dangerous. Only in corsets.

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    I'll check this out.The only Joss Whedon thing I couldn't get into was Firefly/Serenity.

    Buffy,Angel,Dollhouse,Agent Of Shield(I know his brother and sister-in-law run that but he did co-create it),even Dr. Horrible I all enjoyed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alce View Post
    I never watched anything of Joss after Angel. Which, to be frank, I haven't even particularly enjoyed. Are his other works worth of watching?
    Might wanna check out Firefly!

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    http://www.ign.com/articles/2018/07/...comic-con-2018THE NEVERS / 21 JUL 2018


    JOSS WHEDON EXPLAINS TITLE OF HIS HBO SERIES, THE NEVERS - COMIC-CON 2018
    Share. It's not a superhero team name.

    BY JOSHUA YEHL IGN talked to Joss Whedon at Comic-Con 2018 about his upcoming HBO Series, The Nevers. The show is set in the Victorian era and features a group of superpowered women. But what does the title mean? Is it name of a superhero group a la The Avengers? Not exactly. Turns out it’s a reference to how these super-powered women are viewed by society.

    “They, themselves are not called that in the show,” Whedon explained. “It’s a phrase that’s meant to evoke a sort of reaction to their oddity, to what is considered unnatural. The idea that you should never be like this, you should never have existed. Something is not the way it should be, and you don’t have the right to have whatever weird power or ability or that you have. And that idea, that some people are not of the natural order, is fascinating to me. I don't agree with it. But to me, it’s one of those things where you take something negative, and you wear it as a badge of honor, basically. Certain things could never happen - they’re happening. And the people they’re happening to are taking their place in the world.”

    Two years ago at Comic-Con 2015, Whedon announced he was doing a comic at Dark Horse Comics called Twist starring a Victorian era, female Batman-type character. The comic never materialized, but given how similar it sounded to The Nevers, we asked Whedon about if there was a connection and if the comic inspired the show.

    “I’m honestly not sure what’s happening with the comic, because everything got very funky around that time. [Dark Horse] were always like, take your time, and then my time became insane. But what happened was, yeah, there were a lot of stories that I was dancing around, and enough of them were Victorian. I just love that era, I love that stuff, it’s fascinating to me. Particularly, the end of the century, when the world was just about to shift radically. Those are always fascinating things to me. And so I realized at some point that I didn’t wanna tell a story about a person, that I wanted to tell a story that was… this is gonna sound like I’m puffing me up, but Dickensian. That was like, where I can talk about society as a whole through a bunch of people’s interactions and through their adventures. And I just realized, oh, God, I’m gonna do it again! It’s like, I’m doing another superhero team, it’s another goddamn superhero team. There is something wrong with me, why do I do this to myself? These are really hard. But, yeah, that was an inspiration for me to go, all right, there’s something bigger here. So I don’t know what’ll happen with [the comic]. If they cancel each other out, I don’t know yet,” Whedon said.

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    https://www.polygon.com/tv/2018/7/24...nevers-details

    Joss Whedon’s brand new show — other than the reported Buffy reboot — is The Nevers, a new HBO series about “a gang of Victorian women who find themselves with unusual abilities, relentless enemies, and a mission that might change the world.”

    Polygon got a chance to sit down with Whedon during San Diego Comic-Con 2018, where he was promoting his upcoming Dr. Horrible one-shot for Dark Horse, and asked him to open up a bit more about the mysterious Nevers. With the Victorian setting, was the title maybe a reference to Peter Pan?

    “I can easily shoot that down,” the writer/director answered. “I dislike Peter Pan enormously as a myth and as a story. I am not a Peter Pan man,” he joked.

    “It’s more meant to evoke the sort of attitude of ... these women have certain afflictions or abilities or skills. Something is changing, something more than just the end of the century, and it feels odd and it feels terrifying to some.”

    Whedon says that the main characters are never called “the Nevers” within the story, it’s simply the name of the show. “To me it spoke very plainly to the idea of we are upsetting your idea of what is and what is allowed.”

    Fantastical characters but not in a fantastical world, or a world that was not fantastical yet, it seemed to us. He agreed.

    “It’s gotten a little strange in the last few years,” he added. “Sometime around 1895 it started getting a little warped. And now there seems to be a gathering and a purpose and a very strong reaction about that.”

    The Nevers is an upcoming series from HBO, and does not currently have a release date.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Priceless View Post
    https://www.polygon.com/tv/2018/7/24...nevers-details

    Joss Whedon’s brand new show — other than the reported Buffy reboot — is The Nevers, a new HBO series about “a gang of Victorian women who find themselves with unusual abilities, relentless enemies, and a mission that might change the world.”

    Polygon got a chance to sit down with Whedon during San Diego Comic-Con 2018, where he was promoting his upcoming Dr. Horrible one-shot for Dark Horse, and asked him to open up a bit more about the mysterious Nevers. With the Victorian setting, was the title maybe a reference to Peter Pan?

    “I can easily shoot that down,” the writer/director answered. “I dislike Peter Pan enormously as a myth and as a story. I am not a Peter Pan man,” he joked.

    “It’s more meant to evoke the sort of attitude of ... these women have certain afflictions or abilities or skills. Something is changing, something more than just the end of the century, and it feels odd and it feels terrifying to some.”

    Whedon says that the main characters are never called “the Nevers” within the story, it’s simply the name of the show. “To me it spoke very plainly to the idea of we are upsetting your idea of what is and what is allowed.”

    Fantastical characters but not in a fantastical world, or a world that was not fantastical yet, it seemed to us. He agreed.

    “It’s gotten a little strange in the last few years,” he added. “Sometime around 1895 it started getting a little warped. And now there seems to be a gathering and a purpose and a very strong reaction about that.”

    The Nevers is an upcoming series from HBO, and does not currently have a release date.
    So...Fin de Siecle? "The "spirit" of fin de siècle often refers to the cultural hallmarks that were recognized as prominent in the 1880s and 1890s, including ennui, cynicism, pessimism, and "...a widespread belief that civilization leads to decadence." Sound like Whedon? Suffragists? SteamPunk?

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    Quote Originally Posted by TriBel View Post
    So...Fin de Siecle? "The "spirit" of fin de siècle often refers to the cultural hallmarks that were recognized as prominent in the 1880s and 1890s, including ennui, cynicism, pessimism, and "...a widespread belief that civilization leads to decadence." Sound like Whedon? Suffragists? SteamPunk?
    I've never been under the impression that Joss has much of a grasp on history. If he did, he'd know that things got interesting, by any definition, well before 1895. There were people writing books about how dangerous all this steam power and city livin' was in the 1840s. The fin de siècle just made it more fashionable for the respectable classes to admit to living for the moment.

    Personally, I'd be more interested in a show set in the earlier period. Maybe because the technology makes the fin de siècle/Belle Époque feel somewhat familiar, maybe because people like the aesthetic, there's already a surfeit of navel-gazing, BIG-THEME characters from that period. (See: Penny Dreadful.) It'd be fresher to show the shift in attitudes of the early 19th century, or people rebelling against those attitudes during their greatest entrenchment in the 1840s-60s. Regardless, I don't envy any historical consultants working on a Joss Whedon show.

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    https://www.screendaily.com/news/des...133747.article

    Long article, but contains a tiny bit about The Nevers

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    Is it his last chance? No. Is he losing the public's affection with every project he releases? Yes. I think Joss' credentials as a feminist creator are almost over. People don't buy into it anymore after Black Widow's treatment and his own personal treatment towards his wife. So taking on ANOTHER 'Feminist' project after that is either brave or stupid. I hope it works out for him. I still very much believe in his ability to tell a good story despite Networks (FOX) not giving it a chance.
    My underachieving self has yet to earn banner privileges.

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    All said regarding writers, producers, actors, directors, viewers, readers, etc. are what I remember, my opinions, etc.




    Quote Originally Posted by Josh View Post
    Is it his last chance? No. Is he losing the public's affection with every project he releases? Yes. I think Joss' credentials as a feminist creator are almost over. People don't buy into it anymore after Black Widow's treatment and his own personal treatment towards his wife. So taking on ANOTHER 'Feminist' project after that is either brave or stupid. I hope it works out for him. I still very much believe in his ability to tell a good story despite Networks (FOX) not giving it a chance.
    I've always considered FOX gets too much hate regarding how Joss Whedon fans regard FOX's treatment of Firefly and Dollhouse . Joss got a $20MM production deal from 20th Century Fox and that I remember became Firefly . Firefly was low rated and Joss focused on it to the detriment of BtVS S7.

    Dollhouse was low rated and it got a second season to please the viewers and Joss Whedon.


    The hate toward Joss Whedon after The Avengers 2 and after Justice League is telling and troubling. Kevin Feige and/or Marvel generally are responsible for the badness of The Avengers 2 . The Black Widow stuff is beyond ridiculous given Joss Whedon 'made her a character' in the first place. In Iron Man 2 , she's literally introduced as an underwear model and how she looks in underwear is why Tony Stark is interested in her. And she's barely important in IM 2 . Scarlett Johansson has probably made over $80-100MM that she wouldn't have if Joss hadn't 'made her a character' in The Avengers .

    Justice League was already a mess before Joss was hired.

    Joss cheated on his wife. That makes him not a feminist?

    Buffy is still the go-to for 'strong female character'. BtVS is still in popular culture. BtVS is Joss Whedon's legacy, as well as The Avengers .

    Few have had as much impact on popular culture as Joss Whedon has.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Josh View Post
    Is it his last chance? No. Is he losing the public's affection with every project he releases? Yes. I think Joss' credentials as a feminist creator are almost over. People don't buy into it anymore after Black Widow's treatment and his own personal treatment towards his wife. So taking on ANOTHER 'Feminist' project after that is either brave or stupid. I hope it works out for him. I still very much believe in his ability to tell a good story despite Networks (FOX) not giving it a chance.
    I have said it before. The #metoo movement has rightfully brought down some of the Hollywood elite men. Now is the time to speak out. When a single woman comes forward and says she feels used, abused, or was in any way coerced I will join the protest against Joss.

    The fact that Kai decided to go online and publicize his infidelity years after their separation and divorce - despite the fact that their two young children would have to deal with the consequences = strikes me as child abuse. The fact that she categorizes some of the relations ships as emotional affairs (close friendships) is highly questionable. Frankly, right about now I support Joss for not retaliating.

    Yes, feminism has changed in the last 20 years, and Joss probably has not changed with it. But I am not ready to decry him based on the dubious complaints f his angry ex.
    Bottom line is, even if you see them coming, you're not ready for the big moments...The big moments are gonna come, you can't help that. It's what you do afterwards that counts. That's when you find out who you are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Josh View Post
    Is it his last chance? No. Is he losing the public's affection with every project he releases? Yes. I think Joss' credentials as a feminist creator are almost over. People don't buy into it anymore after Black Widow's treatment and his own personal treatment towards his wife. So taking on ANOTHER 'Feminist' project after that is either brave or stupid. I hope it works out for him. I still very much believe in his ability to tell a good story despite Networks (FOX) not giving it a chance.
    Joss's cred in that area was in the gutter long before Black Widow or Kai's letter. It didn't stop him from getting the biggest franchise since Star Wars or Justice League or getting this pushed straight to order, probably at the impetus of AT&T. He's a brand and that's all they care about now, hence the constant reboots, remakes and revivals.

    I don't think too many buy Joss as a feminist anymore, so if that's their selling point for it, they're in for trouble.

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