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Thread: Random comics related questions (not season 12!)

  1. #201
    Slayer flow's Avatar
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    The end is near and I can say from the bottom of my heart that season 12 is the worst of all DH comic seasons. And that has nothing to do with the Spuffy break up. Actually I am very fine with Spuffy since their nice talk just before the final battle.

    No, it is the art, the references to the tv show that make no sense at all and have,like SpuffyGlitz said, only been squeezed in to milk the cow once more and the huge plot holes.

    Let`s get this straight: The Reckoning has already happened and thanks to Harmony the Scoobies now know the general outcome. All Slayers loose their power, Buffy goes with all the demons to a hell dimension. The only sensible thing to do would be something that does not fit into that story because only by doing something different they can change history as it has already been written.
    Illyira suggests staying behind and waiting for Harth. Although this would not directly change the outcome of The Reckoning, its still a good back up plan.

    They dismiss it.

    They go into battle just like history tells them. Faith offers to be the one who goes to hell with the demons. A brilliant idea. It would change history as we know it.

    But the plan is dismissed.

    By the way - Faith offering to go to hell was one of the best moments of season 12 and it was a great moment for Faith and the next second they completely take it away from her and humiliate her with her line: "Shows why I should leave making plans to other folks". I was nearly sick at that.

    So, the next plan is for Buffy to go to hell with the demons and the power of all the Slayers. Exactly like history happened. What was brilliant about that? How would it have changed history?

    Then Harth hooks something into the Scythe to yank the Scythe out of Buffy`s hands. The something looks nothing like the Scepter of the Sourcerer. I assume it isn`t the Scepter. What is it? Where did Harth get it from? Why did he need the Scepter too? What happened to it?

    In the next panel, Buffy still hold the Scythe. The yanking stick is no longer hooked into it. The next panel after that Harth holds the Scythe. Huh? How did that happen? Art error?

    Then Illyria, whose Old One form is ridiculously not scaring sweeps all the demons into hell but leaves the Mayor - the most dangerous one of them - behind. By the way, another great moment for Faith, when she tries to talk to him that about Harth and that he has been reduced to being Harth`minion.

    The next scenes make no sense to me at all. Men can`t endure the Slayer memories. Harth could only endure them because he was a vampire and had no soul. But wait - he had them from his birth on. Long before he was a vampire. How could he endure them then? Okay, because he had the memories but not the "feelings". But where were the feelings? Melakaobviously did not have them either. Anyway, now Harth gets the feelings in addition to the memories and he really cracks up under the weight, because it is too much for a man to endure them. Only women can do that. We could say that`s a bit - well man-bashing. But I am ready to give it a pass. Still, it makes no sense that Harth cracks under the weight of the feelings because he isn`t a man. He is a vampire without a soul. Why should he care about Slayer feelings?


    flow

    - - - Updated - - -

    One final question:

    Buffy never went to a hell dimension. The Slayers never lost their power. There always has been a continuing line of Slayers through the centuries. Melaka and Erin were never born. No one knows them in the future (except from books). That makes it pretty likely that Harth was never born either. So ... he never went back to change the outcome of The Reckoning. Which means Buffy never went back to the future to check out the library and never met Fray there and never took Fray back with her to the past. Which means Fray can`t go back to the future, because she never went back to the past in the first place and never has been born anyway .... which means season 12 does not happen at all.

    This is something, DanSlayer said in another thread:

    DanSlayer:
    I've posted these before but there's 3 ways to do a time travel story.

    Harth's Method: Whatever Happened, Happened. The timeline is set in stone. Anything you do in the past was already in place for your present. Daniel comes to the island in his late 20's. He time travels to 1974 and spends 3 years there. In 1977 he's physically 30 and killed by his own pregnant mother; realizing she raised him his whole life knowing he'd go to the island where she did/would kill him and there's no way to change that ever. Video explaining, Kid Ben didn't remember Sayid because he was mind-wiped.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_dH4xOFp9w

    Harth knows everything the Scoobies will do and believes they are doomed to fail because the only possible future is his world.

    Willow's Failed Idea: Change Things. You can go back and alter stuff. And only you know what changed. Accidentally ruin your parents meeting each other, have them meet somewhere else. When you go home only you remember the original intended meeting place. A side variant of this is to save someone's life and avoid changing too much by taking them through time with you; so they were missing instead of dead.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrrP9CrL_BQ

    Fray doesn't want Buffy in her world as she knows Buffy wants to change things which Fray believes will mean erasing her and everyone she cares about.

    My Believed Ending: Multiverse. You can go back and change things but the timeline branches off creating a changed world. Your original home is still messed up by whatever you tried to change. Fray's world will still have almost no magic and everything but the main Buffyverse will find a different path somehow and be saved:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfFwKZoLpFU

    Joss loves Fray too much to erase her but giving into a fate is kinda the opposite of much of the Buffyverse's themes not to mention dour and somewhat dull being predictable. So multiverses mean he can keep Fray but also surprise and save the world of the main stories.
    I don`t see, where season 12 fits in with one of those three ways to do a time travel story.

    flow
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  3. #202
    Scooby Gang DanSlayer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flow View Post
    The end is near and I can say from the bottom of my heart that season 12 is the worst of all DH comic seasons. And that has nothing to do with the Spuffy break up. Actually I am very fine with Spuffy since their nice talk just before the final battle.

    No, it is the art, the references to the tv show that make no sense at all and have,like SpuffyGlitz said, only been squeezed in to milk the cow once more and the huge plot holes.

    Let`s get this straight: The Reckoning has already happened and thanks to Harmony the Scoobies now know the general outcome. All Slayers loose their power, Buffy goes with all the demons to a hell dimension. The only sensible thing to do would be something that does not fit into that story because only by doing something different they can change history as it has already been written.
    Illyira suggests staying behind and waiting for Harth. Although this would not directly change the outcome of The Reckoning, its still a good back up plan.

    They dismiss it.

    They go into battle just like history tells them. Faith offers to be the one who goes to hell with the demons. A brilliant idea. It would change history as we know it.

    But the plan is dismissed.

    By the way - Faith offering to go to hell was one of the best moments of season 12 and it was a great moment for Faith and the next second they completely take it away from her and humiliate her with her line: "Shows why I should leave making plans to other folks". I was nearly sick at that.

    So, the next plan is for Buffy to go to hell with the demons and the power of all the Slayers. Exactly like history happened. What was brilliant about that? How would it have changed history?

    Then Harth hooks something into the Scythe to yank the Scythe out of Buffy`s hands. The something looks nothing like the Scepter of the Sourcerer. I assume it isn`t the Scepter. What is it? Where did Harth get it from? Why did he need the Scepter too? What happened to it?

    In the next panel, Buffy still hold the Scythe. The yanking stick is no longer hooked into it. The next panel after that Harth holds the Scythe. Huh? How did that happen? Art error?

    Then Illyria, whose Old One form is ridiculously not scaring sweeps all the demons into hell but leaves the Mayor - the most dangerous one of them - behind. By the way, another great moment for Faith, when she tries to talk to him that about Harth and that he has been reduced to being Harth`minion.

    The next scenes make no sense to me at all. Men can`t endure the Slayer memories. Harth could only endure them because he was a vampire and had no soul. But wait - he had them from his birth on. Long before he was a vampire. How could he endure them then? Okay, because he had the memories but not the "feelings". But where were the feelings? Melakaobviously did not have them either. Anyway, now Harth gets the feelings in addition to the memories and he really cracks up under the weight, because it is too much for a man to endure them. Only women can do that. We could say that`s a bit - well man-bashing. But I am ready to give it a pass. Still, it makes no sense that Harth cracks under the weight of the feelings because he isn`t a man. He is a vampire without a soul. Why should he care about Slayer feelings?


    flow

    - - - Updated - - -

    One final question:

    Buffy never went to a hell dimension. The Slayers never lost their power. There always has been a continuing line of Slayers through the centuries. Melaka and Erin were never born. No one knows them in the future (except from books). That makes it pretty likely that Harth was never born either. So ... he never went back to change the outcome of The Reckoning. Which means Buffy never went back to the future to check out the library and never met Fray there and never took Fray back with her to the past. Which means Fray can`t go back to the future, because she never went back to the past in the first place and never has been born anyway .... which means season 12 does not happen at all.

    This is something, DanSlayer said in another thread:

    DanSlayer:

    I don`t see, where season 12 fits in with one of those three ways to do a time travel story.

    flow
    The thing Harth had was explained as the Shadow Men's Staff that did appear in Season 7 when they made the First Slayer.

    https://buffy.fandom.com/wiki/Shadowmen%27s_staff

    The Scepter thing at the start of the story was Harth's plot device for time travel.

    Giles claims Harth probably would have gone mad eventually had he lived. The power of Slayers plus memories is too much apparently. Having no soul meant he could handle the memories longer then a living male supposedly.

    It really doesn't fit so well. In the end it roughly falls into Change Things as we see a new positive future world that still somehow has Gunther in it whom doesn't know Fray anymore.

    Supposedly the big change was that in Harmony's time, Harth never took the strength of the Slayers so uber-Buffy banished him and all the demons to hell, possibly with Spike and Angel and aided by Willow's whirlwind. Faith and every other Slayer would just be a regular human the rest of their lives; until Fray is called 200 years later. Here, Harth took the power which led to his downfall and Willow never had enough time to recover from the Power Spell to make an effective whirlwind. Illyria became the whirlwind and banished herself, Fred and most of the major demons to hell instead. Again, what happened to Illyria in Harmony's version is also unclear. With Harth dead, Faith and the rest got their powers back which carried on multiple Slayers in the new Happy 23rd century we see at the end.

    The rest, I got nothing.

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  5. #203
    Slayer TriBel's Avatar
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    @flow.

    I found two ways of reading it. One way, reading it as story, lead to the conclusion it was crap. The other way involved 30 plus years of working with textual analysis and the application of 30 years worth of critical, literary and film theory. That allowed me to accommodate the time travel aspect and lead to the conclusion it could be very clever.

    The problem is - I'm not sure which way to go. Whichever way I go, I'm still left with the feeling it was a dishonest ending and fans deserved better.

    which means season 12 does not happen at all.
    Best news I've heard since the Manchester United / PSG scoreline.

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  7. #204
    Scooby Gang GoSpuffy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TriBel View Post
    I'm still left with the feeling it was a dishonest ending and fans deserved
    This. Exactly.


    I like who I am when Im with him. I like who we are together.

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  9. #205
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    Season 12 was awful. About the only thing I liked was Faith and Buffy Becoming close but that was it. The rest was pure trash

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  11. #206
    Well Spiked Stoney's Avatar
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    I had issues with it for sure and felt that they did too much off the page that would have made a great season. The issues/insecurities that fed into Spike and Buffy breaking up. It's a huge shift from where we left them but it is at least somewhat explored through the season. But why Giles chose to be re-aged really isn't and I want to know how and why that occurred. Also I'd like to have seen some of how Dawn and Xander handled the news of the pregnancy, gained insight into whether it was planned etc. These are big shifts in the stories of characters that we've been following for eleven previous seasons, in plot points that have been specifically developed over multiple seasons within that, and they were just too big jumps to have simply happened. It also makes the shifts in the season itself and character moments harder to see the depth or through lines to for the characters as we didn't really get details/insight into what came before and why.

    They obviously did a bunch because they wanted to pull everyone back together (this was the final season for Angel too of course) and I can even understand wanting to lay ambiguity around so that the majority of fans could find potential directions for it that satisfied them without clear contradictions. And whilst the unintentional message that a woman needs independence to be able to make choices for herself that are focused on her individual path/wants is one I find/found really hugely negative and greatly frustrates me, I think the overriding message that the future isn't set and you can change your path for yourself and then question it and change it again is sound. The overall sense of having family and friends that'll see you through shifts or support you through difficulties, celebrate with you and generally be around when you need them the most, having relationships that bring out the best in you, is also solid. It was too disjointed from what had led up to it and it felt like there was a missing season with all those things happening around another story that should have been told, but the intention of leaving things in a place that was surrounded by possibilities and potential paths is one I think is an understandable one to have opted for and is in keeping to the overall messages of the verse so I've found my peace somewhat with it. I'm still yet to reread it though.
    Last edited by Stoney; 23-03-19 at 12:16 AM.

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