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Thread: Passion of the Nerd - Buffy and Angel youtube videos

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alce View Post
    Ok. I can see reasoning in that point of view.

    As for me I see it differently. For comparison I'll take Buffy resurrection in season 6. That moment when her dead rotten body was restored back to life. Should we consider her new body less authentic, less genuine and therefore resurrected Buffy being less of Buffy than Buffy before death? I myself think that's not the case. That why I still think that "just a body" is valid point of view in this case. In moment of sex Faith had full ownership of a body. It was her body at that moment. Same as former Faith's body was in full ownership of Buffy at the time of the switch. Her soul, her mind, her body.
    Your argument is that possession is 9 /10ths of the law, and that too is a valid viewpoint.

    But as for the dead body, that is not similar, because Buffy's consciousness was not in this dimension. She happily gave up her life and her body and was happy where she was. No one wanted the body she left behind, except to bury it and respect it. The body-swap is very different imo. Faith stole Buffy's body, which is bad enough, but she also wanted to damage it, bring it as low as possible, do things with it that she thought Buffy would never do, in an act of revenge. Two very different situations. Also, Buffy's mind was still here, and her mind knew she was in the wrong body and she was fighting to get back to her real body

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    Angel season 1 The Ring is up.


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    I've just watched one of his live feeds/discussions which pretty much seem to be an excuse to get raging drunk on air sadly. He seems to do a lot of those these days, which makes me suspect he may have a 'problem'.

    It was a strange little 2 hour wander through various topics, some of which was Once more with Feeling, which was okay (except his drunkenness was getting extremely embarrassing, I mean why do this to yourself so often and in public too?) but he ended it by saying those who thought the last scene when Spike and Buffy kiss was romantic were missing the frigging point, and that all her songs were about depression, and "that this was no different" Has anyone ever heard that view on this particular scene before? Or was I really viewing that kiss via my 'Spike Goggles' yet again?

    He also amazed me by saying he disliked Tara's song as It was pitched too high.

    As per with these late night live feeds he's taken the video down after a couple of hours so It's not visible now.
    Last edited by Silver1; 11-08-18 at 11:14 AM.

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    I caught one of his live feeds and he did seem to be drinking heavily but I was honestly more embarrassed by all the fawning over him from the comment section. I find it really cringeworthy

    In regards to OMWF, he's not wrong to say that Buffy was singing about her depression. After all, she sings "this isn't real but I just want to feel" which is more or less an admission that she's a) using him and b) suffering from depression. It's what she'll repeat ad nauseam throughout the season (Dead Things, As You Were). However, the scene is also has grand romantic music, the epic kiss, and the sweeping curtain call, so just because it's dark and depressing it doesn't also mean it can't be viewed as romantic as well. The two aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. But yeah, I do think that OMWF is overall meant to be subversive with the 'grand musical' and all it's tropes being used to hide the pain all the characters were going through. Most of the lyrics are all very dark hidden behind 'happy' songs.

    I feel the same way about the Willow/Tara song. There's a dark undercurrent to I'm Under Your Spell but I also wouldn't blame people for finding it romantic with the Disney-esque magic, flowing dresses, dancing and sex.

    Personally, I think the guy is a little overrated myself. His reviews aren't bad at all but he doesn't really say anything that hasn't already been said over the past 20 years. I think he just has a knack for editing his videos and I admit that some of his earlier vids made me unexpectedly emotional. But his last few reviews have left me pretty cold.
    Last edited by vampmogs; 11-08-18 at 10:46 AM.
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    I know It's none of my business, but I get the feeling he's going through some rough times emotionally and thats why these 'drunk feeds' are getting more frequent. I mean hell, now does his live editing feeds whilst drinking, which just rings alarm bells for me.

    I still do rate him video wise, but as you've hinted at the quality has dropped off more.

    As to the whole Spike/Buffy thing, yeah, I get It's about depression, but maybe It's just me getting swept up in the moment, but I also thought there was a tiny bit of hope thrown into the mix. But then I'm one of those poor deluded souls who saw the whole 'Smashed' episode house falling as a metaphor for the barriers between the characters coming down, rather then being this signaling the start of a destructive relationship.
    Last edited by Silver1; 11-08-18 at 12:31 PM.

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    He also amazed me by saying he disliked Tara's song as It was pitched too high.
    Me too. I don't like the pitch when Tara sings alone, though I think she and Giles together are great

    - - - Updated - - -

    Personally, I think the guy is a little overrated myself. His reviews aren't bad at all but he doesn't really say anything that hasn't already been said over the past 20 years. I think he just has a knack for editing his videos and I admit that some of his earlier vids made me unexpectedly emotional. But his last few reviews have left me pretty cold.
    I agree, but I think he's given up his job and is just doing the videos/reviewing. Unfortunately that could mean he's chasing a buck now, so is perhaps only saying what he thinks the majority of his viewers want to hear, though I hope I'm very wrong about that.

    As I've mentioned several times, the Still Pretty and Still Dead podcasts are great for bringing in new views and opinions (such as Marcie and bi-erasure & Darla/Angel having sex) and that's one of the reasons I like them. POTN is lyrical and sweet and makes great videos, but he says very little that is new.

    - - - Updated - - -

    As to the whole Spike/Buffy thing, yeah, I get It's about depression, but maybe It's just me getting swept up in the moment, but I also thought there was a tiny bit of hope thrown into the mix. But then I'm one of those poor deluded souls who saw the whole 'Smashed' episode house falling as a metaphor for the barriers between the characters coming down, rather then being this signaling the start of a destructive relationship.
    I think it can mean both. Things don't only have to have one meaning. Things have the meanings you assign to them. I choose to believe the house being destroyed is about the Verse being destroyed, because here is Buffy, the Slayer sleeping with Spike, a soulless creature. The Verse is smashed and everyone's view, beliefs and actions have to be reformed from this moment. Smashed is the Buffyverse's Reformation

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    Silver1
    he ended it by saying those who thought the last scene when Spike and Buffy kiss was romantic were missing the frigging point, and that all her songs were about depression, and "that this was no different"
    Spike goggles here as well (same as for Smashed, which is my favorite Spuffy episode) but I read the absolutely fantastic and brilliant review for Once More with Feeling by American Aurora on the BtVS rewatch season 6 thread a short while ago and she pointed out that Spike and Buffy are both singing to each other in the last scene shortly before the kiss. But they don`t listen to each other. They are both completely missing the other ones point. I have rewatched that particular scene afterwards and sadly had to throw my Spike goggles in the bin.


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    Quote Originally Posted by flow View Post
    Silver1

    Spike goggles here as well (same as for Smashed, which is my favorite Spuffy episode) but I read the absolutely fantastic and brilliant review for Once More with Feeling by American Aurora on the BtVS rewatch season 6 thread a short while ago and she pointed out that Spike and Buffy are both singing to each other in the last scene shortly before the kiss. But they don`t listen to each other. They are both completely missing the other ones point. I have rewatched that particular scene afterwards and sadly had to throw my Spike goggles in the bin.


    flow
    But isn't that the same when Giles and Tara sing to Buffy and Willow? It's not that they are not listening as such (although that's the subtext) it's that they cannot hear? Or are you saying that's the same thing?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Priceless View Post
    I agree, but I think he's given up his job and is just doing the videos/reviewing. Unfortunately that could mean he's chasing a buck now, so is perhaps only saying what he thinks the majority of his viewers want to hear, though I hope I'm very wrong about that.
    I'll always be amazed that people actually donate money to these guys. I also think it's pretty cheeky that they actually set up a donation tab but more power to them I guess. I just can't fathom parting my with money to listen to this guy talk about Buffy when I can read decades worth of fabulous discourse on the show for free.
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    Priceless
    But isn't that the same when Giles and Tara sing to Buffy and Willow? It's not that they are not listening as such (although that's the subtext) it's that they cannot hear? Or are you saying that's the same thing?
    I don`t remember the Giles and Tara bits. Anyway, American Aurora explained it so much better than I can thus I take the liberty to directly quote her here from her OMWF review:

    AmericanAurora:

    What Spike can’t see is that Buffy isn’t really responding to his words at all – but what he represents
    So Buffy’s main interest in Spike isn’t just sexual or romantic or even a diversion from the trials and tribulations of life although those are all important elements of her attraction. In reality, her slow movement towards Spike is a deliberate embrace of death.
    Buffy realizes that she can choose another way to “die” that’s much less painless (or so she thinks) than the last one. Through a relationship with Spike, she can run away from her former life as a living woman – forget about heaven – and just rut and wallow in the dark like a dead thing.
    But Spike is oblivious to Buffy’s true motives – as he moves forward, he believes that she’s finally decided to give into her deepest desires.
    And Buffy starts to sing the last line of her opening number “Going Through the Motions” even as Spike reprises “Rest in Peace” – and it’s clear how Whedon has cleverly connected their numbers. But neither is really listening to the other - the subtle difference in the word "feel" as both sing it simultaneously is telling.
    As the curtain starts to descend on Spike and Buffy, the ending of the drama can be viewed from two very different perspectives because Buffy and Spike both walk together but separately in darkness and light, both crossing each other’s path in a search for meaning. One seeking death and final oblivion, one seeking life and something effulgent
    The two meet at the middle when they come together for a kiss – Buffy reaching for death and Spike reaching for life.
    But of course there is also another perspective as well. The hope thrown into the mix, as Silver1 mentioned it:

    AmericanAurora:

    And the answer is that Once More With Feeling is both tragedy and comedy at once that leads to infinite possibilities. For Buffy, it is a tragedy that ends in the bleak finality of death. But for Spike, it is a comedy that holds out the promise of redemption through the perpetual cycle of life and rebirth.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vampmogs View Post
    I'll always be amazed that people actually donate money to these guys. I also think it's pretty cheeky that they actually set up a donation tab but more power to them I guess. I just can't fathom parting my with money to listen to this guy talk about Buffy when I can read decades worth of fabulous discourse on the show for free.
    Well to be fair I think It's more about wanting him to continue making nice little videos then any kind of unique insight into the show. Didn't somebody on here say he bases his views on another Buffy thesis type book?

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    The two meet at the middle when they come together for a kiss – Buffy reaching for death and Spike reaching for life.
    Hmmm...okay but...in theory (and off the top of my head) this amounts to the same thing. Language is what allows being to emerge from not being - we "live" through language - but language is the death of the real. Seems to me they're both reaching for an imaginary plenitude (the thing Buffy's still looking for in S12). Having said that - it could be what Aurora's saying.

    What I've always intended to ask Aurora is the significance of the reference to Music Man (76 Trombones). IIRC, Marion and Harold sing different songs to the same melody (I could be completely wrong - I usually am ). I'll re-read her piece - she might have mentioned it. I'm putting off reading the Season 6 reviews - they're daunting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vampmogs View Post
    I'll always be amazed that people actually donate money to these guys. I also think it's pretty cheeky that they actually set up a donation tab but more power to them I guess. I just can't fathom parting my with money to listen to this guy talk about Buffy when I can read decades worth of fabulous discourse on the show for free.
    I would rather pay money to POTN and his like, who are at least trying to discuss Buffy with some intelligent thought, rather than those Reactors that are all over youtube. Some are better than others, but all they do is watch the show, they offer nothing in terms of discussion or debate. Although I have to admit, I do watch a couple of them when they're watching episodes I like

    - - - Updated - - -

    Hmmm...okay but...in theory (and off the top of my head) this amounts to the same thing. Language is what allows being to emerge from not being - we "live" through language - but language is the death of the real. Seems to me they're both reaching for an imaginary plenitude (the thing Buffy's still looking for in S12). Having said that - it could be what Aurora's saying.
    And what is 'death' in the Buffyverse, where no-one actually ceases to exist, they just go to another dimension? Spike is the most 'alive' person in the verse, while Buffy has died twice, and didn't cease to exist, only her existence on this plane ceased. Death in the verse doesn't mean the end, it means a different state of being you. I'm not sure I believe Buffy wants 'death' as such, but just wants to be in a different state of being.

    She says she wants to 'feel', and that isn't 'death' in the sense of non-existence, or becoming dust, or lack of self (come on you clever people, how do philosophers talk about death? I just don't have the words) It's about wanting to be different to how one is in that moment. I think Buffy embraces Spike because he offers her an alternative that isn't death, and I think Spike embraces Buffy because she offers him an alternative that isn't life (as in human). They offer the Buffyverse, between them, a middle ground of existence, a different way of being, that is both life/death alive/dead

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    Priceless

    They offer the Buffyverse, between them, a middle ground of existence, a different way of being, that is both life/death alive/dead
    I'd go along with that - on the understanding that no one actually asks me what "that" is! I think it's the thing represented by their entwined hands and - as we saw in Chosen (the flaming hands) - as soon as it is - it consumes itself. It's the End of Days speech continually deferred...or it's a cat.

    SPIKE: (looks at her) Were you there with me?
    BUFFY: (looks straight at him) I was.
    SPIKE: What does that mean?
    BUFFY: I don't know. Does it have to mean something?
    SPIKE: No. (looks away) Not right now.
    BUFFY: Maybe when...
    SPIKE: No. (throws up his hand) Let's just leave it................................................ ....


    (come on you clever people, how do philosophers talk about death? I just don't have the words)


    The Inevitable Philosophy Lightbulb Jokes

    How many philosophers does it take to change a light bulb?
    It depends on how you define ‘change’.

    How many existentialists does it take to change a light bulb?
    Two – one to bemoan the darkness until the other redefines something else as light.

    How many analytic philosophers does it take to change a light bulb?
    None – its a pseudo-problem…light bulbs give off light (hence the name). If the bulb was broken and wasn’t giving off light, it wouldn’t be a ‘light bulb’ now would it? (oh, where has rigour gone?!)

    How many Heraclitians does it take to change a light bulb?
    None – it’s never the same light bulb again anyway

    How many Epicureans does it take to change a light bulb?
    None – they’re too busy taking advantage of the darkness!

    How many Marxists does it take to change a lightbulb?
    None. The lightbulb contains the seeds of its own revolution.

    How many Nietzschians does it take to change a light bulb?
    0.00001

    How many Natural Selectionists does it take to change a lightbulb?
    Well actually, we won’t even try to change the bulb. We will simply stop using the room that has the burned out bulb, and start using only rooms with functioning bulbs. That way, over time, ….

    How many fatalists does it take to change a light bulb?
    None, why fight it?

    How many Humeans does it take to change a light bulb?
    None – since the bulb actually contains a gaseous substance, and thus contains no ‘abstract reasoning concerning quantity or number’ nor any ‘experimental reasoning concerning matters of fact and existence’ it will simply be removed and thrown in the fire…

    How many Kantians does it take to change a light bulb?
    Two to change the phenomenal bulb; and one to explain that we might not have actually changed the bulb-an-sich at all.

    How many theologians does it take to change a light bulb?
    100 – one to change the bulb, and 99 to explain why an infinite God of love would allow darkness to occur in the world at all.

    https://philosophynow.org/issues/25/...ightbulb_Jokes

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    Quote Originally Posted by Priceless View Post
    I would rather pay money to POTN and his like, who are at least trying to discuss Buffy with some intelligent thought, rather than those Reactors that are all over youtube. Some are better than others, but all they do is watch the show, they offer nothing in terms of discussion or debate. Although I have to admit, I do watch a couple of them when they're watching episodes I like
    Oh I agree with you there, but I also can't understand why anyone would ever pay the reactors either. It's just so bizarre to me.

    Watching people react to the shows is oddly addictive. I'm following at least 5 of them at the moment and I honestly couldn't even tell you why. I think it's because it's almost like getting to experience the show for the first time all over again through their fresh eyes. And I always used to get excited introducing friends and family to the series so watching reaction videos is just an extension of that, I guess.

    I'm pleasantly surprised by how many reactors seem to really enjoy the series throughout Season 1. It's easily the most dated season of the show and the series was still finding it's footing, but they all seem to have really enjoyed it still which makes me happy. It also warms my heart that Buffy seems to quickly become their Number 1 show they're reacting to even though some of them react to multiple shows. It just demonstrates how much more gripping Buffy still is than most of the newer shows on TV today.

    ***

    Whilst Buffy may have continued on in some fashion whilst in "Heaven" what she rejects is, for all intents and purposes, life. It's true that Buffy described some form of consciousness whilst in Heaven but it sounds like she was in a permanent stasis where she had no form, no concept of time, no interaction with anything or anyone beyond a sense of "feeling warm and loved", and she was unable to observe anything. It wasn't even comparable to Cordelia's existence as a Higher Being as Cordy was shown to actually observe what was going on below, and at one point manage to influence things, whereas Buffy had no idea what was happening (she didn't know anything that had occurred in the 3 months she was dead - she just described a hazy feeling of "knowing everybody she loved was ok"). And whilst Cordy expressed frustration and boredom from being in a "paradise" where she wasn't able to effect anything, Buffy welcomed being ineffectual, lost to the world, and "finished." Her consciousness may have lingered on but Buffy herself described it as a feeling of being "complete" so she didn't see it as a continuation of her life just in another form.

    I agree with others that Spike is definitely meant to symbolise "death" in Season 6, at least to Buffy. He was her constant flirtation with death and the dark. We saw her turn to Spike instead of her responsibilities on numerous occasions (much like she longed for death again to escape her responsibilities), she turned to him instead of her friends because a "whisper in a dead man's ear [didn't] make it real", and I'm sure that the possibility that Spike could, in theory, even bite her during sex must've at the very least crossed her mind. I agree that she used Spike to feel which suggests that he wasn't a form of suicide for Buffy, but their relationship was overall a form of self-harm (I liken it to "cutting" - it's better to feel something bad then nothing at all) and there's a very thin line between harming oneself and going too far and actually ending it. As Buffy gets better throughout the season she ends up rejecting the relationship because "it's killing [her]" and she no longer desired that feeling anymore.

    However, I will say that I agree that Season 6 Spuffy enabled Buffy to break free from some barriers and learn things about herself. I think that because she used to the relationship as a form of escapism she was able to explore sides of herself (and her sexuality) that she previously hadn't been willing to explore or was aware of before.
    Last edited by vampmogs; 12-08-18 at 04:34 PM.
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    TriBel - fantastic jokes! Thank you for sharing, I honestly laughed out loud

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    Quote Originally Posted by Priceless View Post
    TriBel - fantastic jokes! Thank you for sharing, I honestly laughed out loud
    The Humeans frighten me!

    What idiot throws a light bulb in the fire?!

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    feeling
    In our world, when we die, we do not go on feeling. Of course I'm an atheist, so I would say that, but it's exactly what I mean - death is the end of feeling in our world. In the Buffyverse, the feeling continues. She feels when she's in heaven and it brings her peace. She comes to earth and she doesn't feel. Spike is a 'dead thing' but also 'alive' in that he exists here, and he feels everything deeply. Of course I would say that being a Spike fan, and not everyone would agree. But Spike takes a joy and a pleasure in life that few of the other characters can match.

    I agree with others that Spike is definitely meant to symbolise "death" in Season 6, at least to Buffy. He was her constant flirtation with death and the dark.
    You are probably right, and it's what the writers intended. I understand that there may be a lack of logical thinking when one is mentally ill, and Buffy was suffering from a mental illness, but still I do not see the through line of this thinking. She flirts with death in the guise of someone who is more alive than she is in many ways, and if she wanted to die there are better ways than sleeping with Spike, who she knew was in love with her. As you say, she ends her relationship with him because 'it's killing her' - so she doesn't want to die.

    I would partly agree that 'self harm' is a better way of framing the relationship, but even then I struggle because I don't know enough about self harm to see the similarities. And self-harm isn't death, it's a release of tension and high emotion (I'm guessing here, maybe someone with more knowledge could explain it a bit more?)

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    I watched him editing this online this morning. This is the first of these I had issues with. I think he's being overly picky with this story and a tad humourless. Also he just had to get his little Spike dig in didn't he.

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