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Thread: Positives and Negatives - S7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheese Slices View Post
    Stoney : I feel you. Honestly the whole Angel thing at the end of S7 bugs me to no end, and not just because I'm a spuffy shipper. I can find reasons and justifications for it, but in the end it just makes Buffy look ...bad. Thankfully it's short and not very relevant, and I get they wanted to make the B/A people happy...but still, it's a regression of her character.
    But this is it, I'm not saying that it isn't relevant but that it is with the themes of the season and that I don't have a problem in the way that it works in the season. It's the line in its melodrama and 'one true wuv 4eva' tone that I've issues with just because it bugs me as it sounds way too immature for her age to me (subjective pov I appreciate). But I think Buffy saying this here and then making it clear to Angel later that she doesn't have a fixed idea for her future and also in how she had been exploring her relationship with Spike to get to saying that he is in her heart and wanting to express her feelings for him to him, all shows that experiences affect us but don't have to limit us. Yes Buffy is affected hugely by her romance with Angel, how she felt, the tragedy of it, and how she still feels, but she is progressing with her life and although it stays relevant it isn't as limiting as she once felt it would be in truth. And that is what we see through the contrast in the season. Narratively this contrast works for what the season shows in moving on, being empowered by others and progressing from our experiences (good and bad ones). It works for her to be saying this now and showing a more mature and less defined attitude later. I have no issues with that. I just think it sounds silly to be talking in this ott way and such limiting terms like this still at her age in the first place. To me anyway. Does that make sense? I seem to be managing a total fail here on successfully managing to explain what my negative was alongside trying to say what it wasn't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stoney View Post
    Yeah, I wasn't putting stock in it, honest. I'm obviously lacking clarity in what I'm saying and perhaps this won't help but I'll give it a try. I think it works within the narrative for her to look on something like this and we then see how she in truth considers her future uncertain later. It isn't categorically void, 'written' and limited because of her past. And yes, the past informs and affects, that was one of my points and that it will always have a very specific place in her mind/heart because of the experience she had and its significance. Her raising it now shows this. But as the season is about progression it matters that things can change and as important as past experiences are that they help to make you what you are and inform your present and future. You shouldn't stay stuck in the past. I know she spoke of loving Joyce more than anything too. My point is that her declaring here that she loved him more than she will love anything in this life is determining that nothing in her future can touch something that has passed. You can't determine how you will feel in a day's time let alone the entirety of your life. It isn't that I think that she is literally limited by this statement in truth, by her past relationship or that I don't understand that there is a drama and emotionally fraught element to making the statement as/when she does. It isn't that I think that she can't love differently and doesn't. Again that was something that I'd tried to convey with what I said about other relationships having different emphasis and changing with you. I think there is a point to having her state this in the season and us seeing how it plays against her actions and statements in the remainder of the season. My 'negative' about it is totally that it just sounds really silly to me for someone her age to be making such melodramatic statements.
    I hear what you're saying but I think it's also a case of holding on to something she feels is solid in a world where everything around her is changing so fast. I think the wording "in this life" is important. In effect, "this life" is finished at the end of the season. A new life is about to start. So I don't think it's necessarily binding.

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    Selfless

    Positive: This is an awesome episode, one of the best in season seven! I love Buffy's and Anya's confrontation. The juxtaposition between the fight's brutality and freneticism and the beauty and hope of Anya's song just works and are there any friends of your left you haven't tried to kill? is the most savage-ass line in this entire franchise, even if Anya's wrong. Buffy's not trying to kill her, Buffy knows that a sword to the chest cannot kill a vengeance demon. She saw it Older and Far Away.

    Negative: CGI spider is bad, like, werewolf-levels bad.
    Last edited by a thing of evil; 17-05-18 at 08:27 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TriBel View Post
    I hear what you're saying but I think it's also a case of holding on to something she feels is solid in a world where everything around her is changing so fast. I think the wording "in this life" is important. In effect, "this life" is finished at the end of the season. A new life is about to start. So I don't think it's necessarily binding.
    And that works with what I'm saying anyway, that things have changed in her outlook by the end of the season generally. But I see your point that her whole life changes in a significant 'new chapter' sense at the season end specifically. That it isn't binding and that things can change and progress is where the season takes it, which fits what it seems I was fuddling saying.

    I see the sense of wanting to hold to something that feels constant too earlier on, it's another fair point. What she says still sounds childish though.

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    Last edited by Stoney; 16-05-18 at 09:35 PM.

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    Yes Buffy is affected hugely by her romance with Angel, how she felt, the tragedy of it, and how she still feels, but she is progressing with her life and although it stays relevant it isn't as limiting as she once felt it would be in truth. And that is what we see through the contrast in the season.
    Agree with everything said so far...What you say makes total sense, Stoney, I see what you mean with it being too melodramatic a statement for Buffy esp at this point. I see it a little differently though. To me, this is Buffy announcing farewell to first love -- 'I loved him more than I will ever love anything in this life and I put a sword through his heart because I had to. '

    She's imparting Slayer wisdom here - her use of hyperbole is for a reason. It's not meant to be a declaration of love, but a declaration of why certain things need to be put first, and overcoming weakness. Aside from the fact that the hyperbole is also meant to add drama/ serve as a brief little nod to Bangel, the wording is pretty interesting. I loved him (past tense) more than I will ever love anything (this statement on the future means she knows she won't love anything in quite that same way - and this isn't negative - it's actually positive growth.) She's a lot more even keeled, and more grown up now. She will never be the Buffy of S1, S2, S3 again. She's come a long way from that. She's learnt, precisely from killing Angel, what she puts first. And she approaches relationships/ love differently. That isn't a bad thing. Haven't we all learned valuable lessons from mistakes in first relationships to not repeat, or grow from, which ultimately leaves us better/different?

    I highly doubt she means it in truth, given her incredibly deep love for Dawn, for whom arguably if she said this I might even believe it to be true, because she has actually referred to Dawn as an 'extension of herself', and knows that taking care of Dawn is not only a promise to Joyce but like an extension of herself. I think, anyway.
    Last edited by SpuffyGlitz; 16-05-18 at 10:06 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpuffyGlitz View Post
    I loved him (past tense) more than I will ever love anything (this statement on the future means she knows she won't love anything in quite that same way - and this isn't negative - it's actually positive growth.) She's a lot more even keeled, and more grown up now. She will never be the Buffy of S1, S2, S3 again. She's come a long way from that. She's learnt, precisely from killing Angel, what she puts first. And she approaches relationships/ love differently. That isn't a bad thing. Haven't we all learned valuable lessons from mistakes in first relationships to not repeat, or grow from, which ultimately leaves us better/different?
    Interesting to see it as a declaration of already clearly feeling that increased sense of distance and learning from experience, rather than a residue of some of the same thinking. Same message and how it fits into the season's focus on moving on, progressing and learning from experience as I was saying, but rather than contrasting to where she is seeing things later it's being expressed differently at the earlier stage in the season to when she states it openly to Angel later on instead. I can see that argument.
    Last edited by Stoney; 16-05-18 at 10:44 PM.

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    And hey - the banner's there! Thanks Stoney! @Priceless - Sorry - it wouldn't let me add a credit!
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    Him:

    Positives: "I'd kill for him!" "You'd kill for a chocolate bar!" never fails to make me laugh It's also nice seeing B/X/W hanging out at The Bronze together again and the reappearance of Buffy's cheerleading out from The Witch, even if I want to strangle Dawn every time she cuts it up And the rocket launcher scene is funny albeit, IMO, pretty overrated in fandom.

    It's also really nice that Buffy reaches out to Anya after Selfless and saves her life from the demon assassin. I'll think about this scene a lot when watching Anya be absolutely horrible to Buffy throughout the remainder of the season and when she throws her kindness back in her face. Season 7 is such a conflicting season when it comes to Anya because on the one hand it's the season she has the best arc and growth in, but on the other hand it's also the season I find her to be plain unlikable in at times too. But she's great here ("And Dawn, well Dawn's not good for anything.." )

    Negatives: As I've mentioned elsewhere, the moment Xander flashes back to Bewitched, Bewildered & Bothered is just a further reminder that this is a rehash of an earlier plot and that the original episode was way better. Whilst B,B&B served to bring Xander/Cordy out into the open and formally cement them as a couple as well as provide some nice character growth for Cordelia, I don't really see what the point of this episode is at all? The characters are in the exact same place they were at the beginning of the episode.
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    Him:

    Positives: I like the headcanon of Buffy and Xander agreeing to make peace: Buffy by checking up on Anya and saving her from the demon assassin, and Xander by taking Spike into his apartment and giving him a place to stay.

    Negatives: I'm not sure Xander would say "Daddy like" when he told Warren in Seeing Red "See now, I think it's the daddy thing that's throwing her. 'Cause incest , not that sexy." Tsk, tsk, show, where's the continuity?
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    Him

    Positive - I'm still on the theme of empowering others and forward progression that I love so much about this season and the continuation of Buffy's care/support that I raised in Same Time, Same Place is taken further now as Spike is brought out of the basement fully. Despite the ongoing uncertainty about the change in him and what it can mean, he is being positively helped and it is a very significant choice to actively aid him to find a path and start to recover. It's something that Angel unfortunately didn't have the opportunity for when he was first trying to find sense and balance in what was happening to him, but is undeniably a huge benefit Spike is fortunate to have aid his journey when first souled. Xander's involvement despite his reluctance and Dawn's ongoing uncertainty reflects the turmoil that Spike himself is feeling too and some of how Buffy is feeling as well. But despite those insecurities it is a choice that follows as a definite choice for positive action. So yes, after facing the inability to make a difference in the fourth episode and then seeing the positive choice to change Anya took in the last, it works well in the season's overall theme and is a significant point in Spike's arc progression this season.

    Negative - I appreciate Buffy is working through a complicated mix of feelings and responses to what is happening with Spike and how she feels about him but I think she should have stuck with trying to talk it through with Dawn somewhat more perhaps. Even if it was only in general terms rather than personal ones.

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    Positive: This is the last, pure fun type comedy episode in the TV series and it just works! It's funny! It's full of amusing lines, like, anti-anti-love spell spell...spell, his physical presence has a penis!, I'm the pushy queen of slut town (and so on, just too many to list) and hilarious gags! Also, Dawn's This isn't fair! never fails to make me laugh out loud! Like, I put it into a loop and laugh for a minute or two.

    Negative: Buffy throwing a salty bitch-fit over Dawn's outfit. Buffy, shut up! When you were Dawn's age, you did the same thing, literally in the same place! And without a love spell! Also, you're, like, 21, stop acting like a christian, sexually insecure, middle-aged soccer mom!
    Last edited by a thing of evil; 17-05-18 at 09:54 PM.

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    Day 6 - Him

    Positive: This is like Buffy's greatest hits re-played by Dawn, so many fun call backs to earlier seasons. Dawn is fantastic, the epitome of teen romance.

    Negative:I hate that Dawn literally wants to die to prove her love. (Is it a call back to Buffy's line 'when you kiss me I want to die'?)

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    Conversations With Dead People

    Positive: Holden Webster is an awesome character and I think that Buffy and Webs have some real chemistry! Their session, though sadly not as in-depth as I would like it, still does a fairly good job explaining just what was going on with Buffy in the previous season. It's interesting stuff and one of the season's highlights.

    Negative: Where's Xander? What, he doesn't have anybody to talk to? How about Jessy or Larry? Why isn't Dawn talking to anybody? I mean, the bad boo is the baddest and Dawn's super-brave but still, her segment feels like something from a different episode. Why is Willow talking to Cassy and not Tara or any other actually important dead character like, I don't know, Jenny Calendar? I mean, since Willow has really gotten into magic via Jenny, her notes and stuff. Why not have the First pretend to be Buffy with Willow? Wouldn't Buffy be more interesting than some random tumblr girl? Or Rack, maybe? Or anybody else? Seriously, the character/casting choices in this episode are just bizarre, I don't know what they were thinking.

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    Well we all know why It wasn't Tara don't we?

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    Late to the party :

    Lessons (7x01)

    Positive : I love the back to school atmosphere, Buffy being all peachy and her bonding with Dawn. The Spike scenes obviously break my heart, and the last scene is easily one of the best in the entire series.

    Negative : There is very little I don't enjoy in this episode, except maybe the zombies being slightly cheesy.
    What a challenge, honesty
    What a struggle to learn to speak
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    Day 7 - Conversations with Dead People

    Positive: One of my top ten favourite episodes. Love this so much, but my favourite positive is how real and brave Dawn is. She is absolutely terrified, but so determined to find the truth and speak to her mum, she's incredible. This was the only episode I found actually scary when I first watched it. (Also special mention for Spike here, and I know I'm being shallow, but he is so hot in this episode)

    Negative: Scott Hope seemed like a nice guy, it's hard for me to believe he'd say Buffy was gay when he broke up with her, not the other way around. He just didn't seem the type to badmouth his exes

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    Conversations With Dead People

    Positive - With ties to the themes of learning from experiences, moving forwards, empowering others, we get some open exploration of self this episode within an interesting sense of isolation. I love the structure of the episode and how there is that sense of separation as individual weaknesses/fears that will be moved beyond in the season are raised or exposed. I like that the direct attacks that The First makes to try and prey on people also inherently exposes it. Something that will go against its machinations again.

    Negative - If this is The First at play then why would it have power over electrical appliances and be able to create all those clichéd poltergeist manifestations?? Do we get more examples of this kind of thing that I'm just forgetting?


    Quote Originally Posted by Priceless View Post
    Love this so much, but my favourite positive is how real and brave Dawn is. She is absolutely terrified, but so determined to find the truth and speak to her mum, she's incredible.
    Yes, kudos for Dawn's gutsy behaviour, plus her anchovies song also always makes me smile.

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    Day 7 - Conversations with Dead People

    Positive: I'm gonna go with @Priceless and say the Dawn scenes make the episode. Seriously, they were chilling and gripping and very well acted and shot. Dawn is my favorite S7 character, hands down.

    Negative: No Xander.
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    Beneath You (7x02)

    Positive : Gotta be the Church Scene (tm). I don't think I can say more than what has already been said in various reviews : Beautifully shot, acted and written, an excellent and subtle take on S6 (and prior) events in Spike and Buffy's individual and common journey. Kudos to everyone involved in this iconic scene. The characterization is pretty great overall, esp. Buffy, Spike, Anya and Dawn. Their reactions and behavior all felt organic and natural.

    Negative : Nancy "the exposition receptacle" is ,well, here to be expositioned at. Also, we get some weird Spike in the scene where he skewers Ronny, when he babbles on about the circus or some nonsense - it drags on and doesn't seem to have meaning beyond "crazy Spike saying crazy stuff" (if someone has a good analysis on it I'm in though).
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    Day 8 - Sleeper

    Positive: I love this episode. Especially all the dialogue between Buffy and Spike. She doesn't trust him and is trying to find out the truth, and he doesn't believe himself capable of killing and all he really wants is to be with her. I love how Buffy puts herself at risk to help him and is compassionate enough not to stake him when she understands what he's done. I think this is an act of real love on her part, and Spike shows real remorse and need to pay for what he's done.

    Negative: Robson's terrible acting when falling to the ground, it's just laughable. Oh and that sheet around Spike, if only it had fallen just a little lower

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