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Thread: The Passion Of The Nerd - Team Cookie Dough

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    Call this sacrilege, but as time has gone on, and my opinion of certain things in the show has changed, including Whedon's writing. I don't think she fully loved Spike at the end. She was just trying to be kind to a dying man. So when when Spike said "No you don't but thanks for saying It" He was saying the truth, however heart breaking that may be. For me that makes his sacrifice even more noble as he went to his death knowing that and yet he still acted, doing It because It was the right thing to do and not just for the love of one women.

    If he had lived, I think she would have gone on to form a relationship with him, but at that point, no. I don't think she felt truly anything for anyone on. Life had taken too much of a toll those past few years and she just need to recamp and recharge.
    Last edited by Silver1; 12-04-18 at 02:13 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silver1 View Post
    Call this sacrilege, but as time has gone on, and my opinion of certain things in the show has changed, including Whedon's writing. I don't think she fully loved Spike at the end. I think when Spike said "No you don't but thanks for saying It" He was saying the truth as however heart breaking that may be.

    If he had lived, I think she would have, but at that point, no. I don't think she felt truly anything for anyone on. Life had taken too much of a toll those past few years and she just need to recamp and recharge.
    You're not alone in thinking Buffy didn't love Spike. Spike himself doesn't even believe it I watch S7 and I cannot believe she doesn't love him just by the way she looks at him, works with him, has his chip removed, supports him, rescues him from The First. Everything she does is for Spike, she pushes away her watcher, her friends and the potentials, but she brings him closer and closer.

    It's all about interpretation and all views are valid, I choose to believe it was love but I understand others see different things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Priceless View Post
    I admit I have an axe to grind, I'm a massive Spuffy fan. To me Buffy loved Spike in S6 and could finally admit it in S7. I can't help but feel POTN is not wanting to alienate his public. As I say, wait till S7, he'll be a Spuffy fan by the end of the show, bugger the cookie dough
    POTN has seen the show many times. Why do you think his opinion would change this time around? He seems to have firmly established his opinions on the series overall.
    Last edited by vampmogs; 12-04-18 at 02:21 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Priceless View Post
    You're not alone in thinking Buffy didn't love Spike. Spike himself doesn't even believe it I watch S7 and I cannot believe she doesn't love him just by the way she looks at him, works with him, has his chip removed, supports him, rescues him from The First. Everything she does is for Spike, she pushes away her watcher, her friends and the potentials, but she brings him closer and closer.

    It's all about interpretation and all views are valid, I choose to believe it was love but I understand others see different things.


    Yeah, I wanted it to be real too, but sadly imo It wasn't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vampmogs View Post
    POTN has seen the show many times. Why do you think his opinion would change this time around? He seems to have firmly established his opinions on the series overall.
    I'm sure we've all loved Buffy for a long time, but lots of our opinions have changed over time. I'm sure POTN has mentioned that his views and opinions change with each watch. I guess it's just my Spuffy love, I cannot imagine anyone watching S7 an not seeing something special in the Buffy/Spike relationship, and when POTN talked about toxic, I assumed he meant S6

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    I think Buffy meant what she said in Chosen but I also don't think she had any plans to settle into a committed relationship with Spike. For one thing, despite their closeness in S7, she didn't feel she owed him any kind of faithfulness as even up until the end she kissed Angel upon seeing him. I also think that her "I do sometimes think that far ahead" and "It'll be years, if ever" to Angel, whilst not in any way a promise to him, is not the kind of thing you speculate about with another guy or even allude to with another guy, if you're planning on entering a committed relationship with someone else. And then of course there's the cookie dough speech where she explicitly states she needs to grow before she's ready for someone to enjoy warm, delicious cookie Buffy.

    But I also admit that knowing what went on behind the scenes does effect how I view their relationship in the text. Knowing that Whedon seriously considered Buffy/Xander for S7 and approached both actors about it suggests that, even after S6, it was never a forgone conclusion that that Buffy/Spike were meant to end up together or even that the ship would continue to be explored past S6. And knowing that Whedon was uncomfortable showing them being intimate after the AR meant that there was always going to be limitations in how far they were willing to go with the ship again which would've been impractical if the series had continued past S7. I can't help but let these things shape how I interpret Buffy/Spike in the text and what exactly their relationship was. I think it was definitely romantic but I think it was largely a result of circumstance with the war with The First making them have to be so close together. After the war and with no reason that forced them to literally live under the same roof, and with Buffy wanting to spend time discovering herself, I think they'd have slowly drifted apart.

    Quote Originally Posted by Priceless View Post
    I'm sure we've all loved Buffy for a long time, but lots of our opinions have changed over time. I'm sure POTN has mentioned that his views and opinions change with each watch. I guess it's just my Spuffy love, I cannot imagine anyone watching S7 an not seeing something special in the Buffy/Spike relationship, and when POTN talked about toxic, I assumed he meant S6
    Well I'm your proof I guess that you can watch S7 and not turn into a Spuffy shipper. For the most part I appreciate their storyline in S7 (I do have a few issues with it though) but it hasn't turned me into a Spuffy shipper. I think POTN is probably similar in the sense that, as he says, he appreciates the interesting things all of Buffy's relationships bring to the show and admires them on that level, but he's not about to start swooning over them. I've come to enjoy all of Buffy's main relationships but I don't ship them.
    Last edited by vampmogs; 12-04-18 at 02:39 PM.
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    I thought it was SMG that went to Joss with the Xander/Buffy storyline and Joss said no, it didn't work with what they were going for in the season, and it does change things if it was Joss' idea. Wonder why he didn't go for it?

    Of course I am positive that Buffy and Spike would have been a couple if the show continued. 'Spike' was Buffy's last word and I do think that meant something

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    I think, that this applies to Spike as well. He needed and wanted time to discover himself and to find his own path. To find out, what he wanted to do with his time on earth. You could say, he was cookie dough as well and it was a good thing, they drifted apart after season 7. Although it wasn`t a slow drifting apart but rather a very explosive one :-)

    But to me it makes their relationship in the comics so much more plausible.

    I have always heard, that it were SMG and NB, who talked to JW about a Buffy/Xander relationship in season 7 and that it was JW, who rejected the idea. This is the first time, someone mentions, it was the other way round. Do you know more about it ? Why didn`t JW pursue the idea further?

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    But I also admit that knowing what went on behind the scenes does effect how I view their relationship in the text. Knowing that Whedon seriously considered Buffy/Xander for S7 and approached both actors about it suggests that, even after S6,
    Now I gotta ask here where did that rumour come from, because to this day I've not managed to track down the source apart from Brendon, who's often not the most reliable of sources.

    And yeah, after 'Seeing Red' you just know If the show had gone on beyond 7 there was no coming back from that one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by flow View Post
    I think, that this applies to Spike as well. He needed and wanted time to discover himself and to find his own path. To find out, what he wanted to do with his time on earth. You could say, he was cookie dough as well and it was a good thing, they drifted apart after season 7. Although it wasn`t a slow drifting apart but rather a very explosive one :-)

    But to me it makes their relationship in the comics so much more plausible.

    I have always heard, that it were SMG and NB, who talked to JW about a Buffy/Xander relationship in season 7 and that it was JW, who rejected the idea. This is the first time, someone mentions, it was the other way round. Do you know more about it ? Why didn`t JW pursue the idea further?

    flow
    Good point about Spike needing to find himself, separate from Buffy. He kinda did that in LA with Angel at Wolfram & Hart. I watched a couple of Season 5 eps this morning and I forgot how much I enjoy Spike and Angel together, though without Buffy, Spike seems more immature.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Priceless View Post
    I thought it was SMG that went to Joss with the Xander/Buffy storyline and Joss said no, it didn't work with what they were going for in the season, and it does change things if it was Joss' idea. Wonder why he didn't go for it?
    I'm not sure why he didn't go for it but it surprised me when I heard it. I had assumed that it was a forgone conclusion that they'd continue to explore Buffy/Spike in S7 the same way it was a forgone conclusion that they'd continue to explore Buffy/Angel in S3. Knowing that they considered going in another direction really impacts how I view the trajectory of their storyline.

    Of course I am positive that Buffy and Spike would have been a couple if the show continued. 'Spike' was Buffy's last word and I do think that meant something
    Personally, I sure hope not. The idea that Buffy's last word on the show was her boyfriend's name and that was supposed to mean something, IMO, greatly undermines a great deal of what they were trying to achieve for 7 years. I choose not to read too much into it. Ultimately I think it was her growing smile at the end that was meant to be important which Whedon talks about in the DVD commentary (and he doesn't mention her final word at all for what it's worth).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Priceless View Post
    I thought it was SMG that went to Joss with the Xander/Buffy storyline and Joss said no, it didn't work with what they were going for in the season, and it does change things if it was Joss' idea. Wonder why he didn't go for it?

    Of course I am positive that Buffy and Spike would have been a couple if the show continued. 'Spike' was Buffy's last word and I do think that meant something
    There are numerous stories. It started out as Sarah and Nic went to Joss to *ask* if he was doing that because it was believed that was his plan. That's the trope, after all. Joss said no. This has been changed over the years to various incarnations of Joss deciding to placate fans and SMG kicking his door down and demanding it. According to Jane, she hinted it was planned in S6 for Spuffy in S7. This seems to have the most support given other comments because the rationale for why they could do the AR was Luke and Laura, who were romantically involved after a rape. There's no reason to juxtapose those two if they weren't going ahead with a B/S storyline.

    I have no doubt they talked about B/X in S7. Memory serves they talked about Willow and Xander in S7, too. There aren't too many storylines that aren't pitched and kicked around before something is settled. At a fan M&G before S7, someone joked about Buffy/Willow to which he responded he'd never put the core 4 together because it would ruin the dynamic.

    What the actual truth in all of it is? Who knows. The writers probably dont' even remember at this point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by flow View Post
    I have always heard, that it were SMG and NB, who talked to JW about a Buffy/Xander relationship in season 7 and that it was JW, who rejected the idea. This is the first time, someone mentions, it was the other way round. Do you know more about it ? Why didn`t JW pursue the idea further?

    flow
    I had always heard it as them approaching him as well but it was in one of the 20th Anniversary interviews where it was brought up again and it was said that it was Joss who considered it. I can't remember the exact interview or who said it (I think it was NB) but I'll see if I can dig it up. It took me by surprise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Silver1 View Post
    And yeah, after 'Seeing Red' you just know If the show had gone on beyond 7 there was no coming back from that one.
    Pretty much this. They spent the entirety of S7 being coy about their relationship because, as per Whedon's own words, they didn't want to send the wrong message by having them be intimate on screen again or even enter a committed relationship (he said he didn't want it to be like Luke & Laura getting married after the rape). Knowing that's how they felt, I really don't see how they could have continued with the relationship much longer when they clearly felt conflicted about it and such restrictions were being placed on the writing. They could get away with it in S7 but it wouldn't have been able to continue on like that for much longer had the show continued.

    I also wonder if that’s why they toyed with the idea of Buffy/Xander in S7 instead. The extreme backlash to the AR was probably more than they had anticipated and probably gave them cold feet about wanting to continue with the storyline.

    Quote Originally Posted by HardlyThere View Post
    This seems to have the most support given other comments because the rationale for why they could do the AR was Luke and Laura, who were romantically involved after a rape. There's no reason to juxtapose those two if they weren't going ahead with a B/S storyline.
    Luke and Laura wasn't used as the rationale for why they could continue the relationship. It was actually used by Whedon as an example of what they *didn't* want to do. From the DVD Commentary;

    "Not – and I've said this before, but I'll say it again – not in a Luke and Laura "he rapes her and they get married" way. Not in an "all is forgiven" way. Just in the way of he's still a human being who did a wrong thing and we still count him as a human being. I think that's a very important message, that their relationship should be complicated, and yet come to a place of trust. Without saying "Okay, now they're going to become lovers again", because I think that would be wrong. I think that's the wrong message. It's a very fine line."
    Last edited by vampmogs; 12-04-18 at 03:02 PM.
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    Gotta admit here I don't believe the Xander/Buffy stuff was ever a serious contender. It doesn't seem like the kind of thing Whedon would go for. I always put that rumour down as Brendon trying to big up his characters role in the grand scheme of things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silver1 View Post
    Now I gotta ask here where did that rumour come from, because to this day I've not managed to track down the source apart from Brendon, who's often not the most reliable of sources.
    Truth. In terms of reliability, Nicky is not high especially as time has passed.

    I really doubt they ever considered B/X outside of a writers room "what if" scenario. The same with Buffy/Wood, which was apparently also on the table according to DB Woodside before Sarah talked them out of killing him early.

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    Well I was told years back by someone in the know so to speak, that the studio had wanted to fire Brendon years earlier then a lot of us suspected. I can't remember at what season, (maybe season 4?) Which completely shocked me.

    Apparently it was only the intervention of Whedon and (I think) SMG that got them to reconsider. So the poor sod was always playing on borrowed time sadly.

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    Really? I've never heard that before. Was that due to his problems? I thought that they didn't begin to start becoming an issue until later into the series? He's very lucky he kept his job in S7 considering that he continuously turned up to set drunk.

    I've only ever heard that about Charisma. Apparently the studio was very unhappy with her in AtS S3 because she kept forgetting her lines and holding production up and there were other things such as cutting her hair without telling them etc. Apparently Joss and David Greenwalt had to convince them not to fire her which is why there were speculation that she wasn't even going to return in S4 (you can find some of the old articles from the S3-S4 summer break speculating if she was going to be asked back still archived on Whedonesque).
    Last edited by vampmogs; 12-04-18 at 03:29 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vampmogs View Post
    I had always heard it as them approaching him as well but it was in one of the 20th Anniversary interviews where it was brought up again and it was said that it was Joss who considered it. I can't remember the exact interview or who said it (I think it was NB) but I'll see if I can dig it up. It took me by surprise.



    Pretty much this. They spent the entirety of S7 being coy about their relationship because, as per Whedon's own words, they didn't want to send the wrong message by having them be intimate on screen again or even enter a committed relationship (he said he didn't want it to be like Luke & Laura getting married after the rape). Knowing that's how they felt, I really don't see how they could have continued with the relationship much longer when they clearly felt conflicted about it and such restrictions were being placed on the writing. They could get away with it in S7 but it wouldn't have been able to continue on like that for much longer had the show continued.

    I also wonder if thatís why they toyed with the idea of Buffy/Xander in S7 instead. The extreme backlash to the AR was probably more than they had anticipated and probably gave them cold feet about wanting to continue with the storyline.



    Luke and Laura wasn't used as the rationale for why they could continue the relationship. It was actually used by Whedon as an example of what they *didn't* want to do. From the DVD Commentary;

    "Not Ė and I've said this before, but I'll say it again Ė not in a Luke and Laura "he rapes her and they get married" way. Not in an "all is forgiven" way. Just in the way of he's still a human being who did a wrong thing and we still count him as a human being. I think that's a very important message, that their relationship should be complicated, and yet come to a place of trust. Without saying "Okay, now they're going to become lovers again", because I think that would be wrong. I think that's the wrong message. It's a very fine line."
    That's from the commentary. When the whole thing came up in S6, Jane was very, very against it. The reasoning why they could go through with it, which she was ambivalent about, was Luke and Laura.

    There was a big stink about this contradiction when that commentary came out.

    Jane: I love Spike. I was very worried about the attempted rape... because that's not something you play around with. That's not something... it's very hard to come back from. And you know, you can say Luke and Laura came back from it, but that was a different time. I think we have to be very careful that we are not saying anything about humans.
    -Succubus Club May 2002.

    That's an aside, though. The very fact that in May they were juxtaposing Buffy and Spike to that couple after is evidence that was their plan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vampmogs View Post
    Really? I've never heard that before. Was that due to his problems? I thought that they didn't begin to start becoming an issue until later into the series? He's very lucky he kept his job in S7 considering that he continuously turned up to set drunk.

    I've only ever heard that about Charisma. Apparently the studio was very unhappy with her in AtS S3 because she kept forgetting her lines and holding production up and there were other things such as cutting her hair without telling them etc. Apparently Joss and David Greenwalt had to convince them not to fire her which is why there were speculation that she wasn't even going to return in S4 (you can find some of the old articles from the S3-S4 summer break speculating if she was going to be asked back still archived on Whedonesque).
    Which is why I don't really believe they considered B/X very hard even outside of narrative choice.

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    Really? I've never heard that before. Was that due to his problems? I thought that they didn't begin to start becoming an issue until later into the series? He's very lucky he kept his job in S7 considering that he continuously turned up to set drunk.

    I've only ever heard that about Charisma. Apparently the studio was very unhappy with her in AtS S3 because she kept forgetting her lines and holding production up and there were other things such as cutting her hair without telling them etc. Apparently Joss and David Greenwalt had to convince them not to fire her which is why there were speculation that she wasn't even going to return in S4 (you can find some of the old articles from the S3-S4 summer break speculating if she was going to be asked back still archived on Whedonesque).
    His drinking was becoming a problem even back then apparently. I have a feeing that it was the moment he got a taste of fame and a larger income.

    I hadn't heard that they'd had a problem with Charisma, apart from the infamous pregnancy thing.

    Oh dear...
    Last edited by Silver1; 12-04-18 at 03:42 PM.

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    Well, I don't think Joss or the writers are going to have a limited capacity for Spuffy because of the Seeing Red episode. I don't think it impacts or limits Spike-Buffy for the entirety of their relationship or its long term persistence - Joss himself has said (I quote): "In terms of a long term relationship? Spike's kinda your guy...He actually went and got a soul because of her! Iím a Buffy/Spike shipper. I always felt like he was a more evolved person, but thatís like saying Julietís going to be so happy with Benvolio and everyone will love it. Buffy/Angel is for the ages; Buffy/Spike is maybe for me."

    PS: I'm not surprised at the unreliability of NB starting as early as S4, because sometimes even in the acting he did seem kind overly tense or strained. Sometimes it worked in the character's favour, and sometimes it didn't.
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