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Thread: 21st birthday of Buffy TVS

  1. #41
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    There are other creatures around than vampires. There are humanoid demons. There are humans. There are werewolves. Characters like Drogyn, the Immortal, or whatever an imagination can think up. Vampire/Slayer ships can be boring as well. It all depends how you tell it.
    You are right, and they could certainly examine that. I just think that The Vampire Slayer has to end up with A Vampire, if they were to end up with anyone. Or a Slayer. I'm not a Faith fan, but I could definitely see Buffy and Satsu together . . . although there is a problem with rank and the fact that Buffy could perhaps be seen as her boss.

    Are you suggesting it isn't? I know who you might be thinking of, there are certainly people that disavow post-S3 and AtS as a whole, and I could not call that viewpoint respected.
    I have my own hang-ups and head canon about the show, so I'm not putting anyone down by saying that there are definitely very vocal fans who believe anything past Season 4 is simply not canon. They believe Buffy, from S5 is not the original Buffy, and the Buffyverse has ended and the Dawnverse is a totally different verse. There are even some people who prefer AtS to BtVS

    If you mean a revival... Again, nah. I think someone not Joss might have more stories to tell but while I think he's overrated in many areas, his 90's era self is undoubtedly part of what made the show the show along with everyone else.

    If you're asking how I'd like to see the verse expanded? I'd like an animated or comic series set during the shows years. Buffy, Dawn and Xander stories between 6 and 7, maybe Giles and Willow had an adventure. Stuff like that. There is plenty of story space left in the show and quite a few unanswered questions to be played on with the right talent.
    I think BtVS is the best thing Whedon ever did and nothing compares this this level of intelligence or creativity. I think the team of writers he gathered around him have a lot to do with that.

    I would also like the comics to continue and agree that there are so many stories still to tell. I'm hopeful that will happen
    Never much cared for picket fences, anyway. Bloody dangerous.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silver1 View Post
    Hang on, Spike was part of the main cast since season 4. Also appeared in 2. Angel apart from brief appearances didn't carry on after season 3.
    Sure, Spike (IMO) is much more essential to the (BtVS) story than Angel, whose role ended long time ago; and what keeps him "active" is the fandom.

    Quote Originally Posted by HardlyThere View Post
    And we hold them in the highest regard, right? No, they're pretty much mocked outside of their own little circle.
    Glad to know, because I, for one, think they are really a joke, people who seem not to understand how a work of fiction... works.

    Quote Originally Posted by HardlyThere View Post
    There are other creatures around than vampires. There are humanoid demons. There are humans. There are werewolves. Characters like Drogyn, the Immortal, or whatever an imagination can think up. Vampire/Slayer ships can be boring as well. It all depends how you tell it.
    They could combine Angel and Spike and make a very politically correct vampire fit for these days... I think it would depend on which network would pick it up, and Disney and all...
    Last edited by betta; 15-03-18 at 06:59 PM.
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    If you're going to reboot, why tell the same story
    Not same story but same premise. If It's meant to be Buffy then many associate that kind of set up with the series. And any remake will have those elements of quite frankly or I think It will die on It's arse.

    Angel and Spike were big parts of the show by the end of the show wether some like it or not.

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    f you're going to reboot, why tell the same story? You could use any old character to do the same as a rebooted Buffy would not be Buffy from 97-03. That's not a reboot you are describing, that's a remake. Who wants that? If you're going to do a revival, again, why tell the same story? You introduce other, new characters to show how those characters interact.

    You don't need Faith, either, btw. Buffy (or Willow or Xander or any character) shows us who she is. Not the others.
    Why have Buffy at all? Cleveland has a hellmouth, and more urban environment. I would happily watch a TNG show where there's another slayer - possibly two, with an older slayer as mentor. Honestly, if Dushku is available I wouldn't mind her as a watcher. Create a team that works for a different place and a different time. Keep the philosophy but bring it to a new time and place because much as I love the characters, the show is about more than them. I don't want to see Buffy as a rehashing of the original.

    This is not about Buffy at all. Can we just admit that? It's about fans of INSERT CHARACTER thinking their fav is the main character. The reason you don't omg need Riley is he's not a fan favorite, thus his impact on Buffy, just as big as Spike or Angel, is dismissed. It doesn't have a thing to do with her; it's about who gets her. They want her stuck in that box Spike spoke of.

    And we hold them in the highest regard, right? No, they're pretty much mocked outside of their own little circle.
    Wow - what a despicable attitude toward other fans. The irony is that people who think this way tend to have their own dog in the race. I remember when this was the attitude toward Spock in ST, which was why TNG avoided vulcans at first.

    Vampires are a well developed force in the B-verse. I'd like to see more of them. I'd also like to explore the demonic force which powers the slayer line, and what has been learned about since the First was defeated. Buffy fandom exists and goes on because of the philosophical underpinnings as much as anything else.

    Thank you. Fandom and its factions get caught in feedback loops. The general population is what makes up the vast, vast majority of the audience, not the 3 or 4 percent that post on boards and have blogs.

    Turn out a decent product and people will come, just like they did when Buffy was rebooted the first time and when Angel left and Angel the show in general.

    The problem is, on that level, I don't think Joss has any more stories to tell for these characters. And there is nothing wrong with that. That's when you know to stop.
    It was a reboot when Angel left? I thought that was just graduation and growing up. I can't imagine Buffy, Willow and Xander as high school students forever. Yes, some fans see breaks where the show enters a new universe, usually after seasons 3 & 5, and that 's really about personal preferences. But the show was never actually rebooted unless you define a reboot as occurring every time any show loses a character.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bespangled View Post
    Why have Buffy at all? Cleveland has a hellmouth, and more urban environment. I would happily watch a TNG show where there's another slayer - possibly two, with an older slayer as mentor. Honestly, if Dushku is available I wouldn't mind her as a watcher. Create a team that works for a different place and a different time. Keep the philosophy but bring it to a new time and place because much as I love the characters, the show is about more than them. I don't want to see Buffy as a rehashing of the original.
    But that's what people claim to want. New Buffy that's the same as Old Buffy.

    Wow - what a despicable attitude toward other fans. The irony is that people who think this way tend to have their own dog in the race. I remember when this was the attitude toward Spock in ST, which was why TNG avoided vulcans at first.

    Vampires are a well developed force in the B-verse. I'd like to see more of them. I'd also like to explore the demonic force which powers the slayer line, and what has been learned about since the First was defeated. Buffy fandom exists and goes on because of the philosophical underpinnings as much as anything else.
    Vampires, yes. Friendly vampires? No, you don't need them; they were never intended. It's not a disgusting attitude, it's the simple truth. If there was a Buffy revival/reboot without Spike, y'all wouldn't watch. If it went on with Spike and not Angel, certain others would not watch. It has nothing to do with Buffy, the character or show.

    It was a reboot when Angel left? I thought that was just graduation and growing up. I can't imagine Buffy, Willow and Xander as high school students forever. Yes, some fans see breaks where the show enters a new universe, usually after seasons 3 & 5, and that 's really about personal preferences. But the show was never actually rebooted unless you define a reboot as occurring every time any show loses a character.
    Yes, it was about growing up. That was the point. Buffy's life continued post-Angel and without Angel. Buffy's life could and would continue without Sunnydale or Spike. Going back to the original statement, you don't need either to continue to tell her story any more than you need her to continue theirs. If you're referring to me saying Buffy was rebooted, I was referring to the movie->TV show.


    Quote Originally Posted by priceless View Post
    I have my own hang-ups and head canon about the show, so I'm not putting anyone down by saying that there are definitely very vocal fans who believe anything past Season 4 is simply not canon. They believe Buffy, from S5 is not the original Buffy, and the Buffyverse has ended and the Dawnverse is a totally different verse. There are even some people who prefer AtS to BtVS
    Of course they do. There are people that think the Earth is flat. A respected opinion, this does not make.

  10. #46
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    I agree with HardlyThere that Angel and Spike aren't essential to a revival. The show continued fine without Angel and the show had it's most successfully rated season (S3) when Spike appeared in just 1 episode. One of the most beloved episodes of the show (The Body) didn't feature either one of them and neither appeared in significant roles for other major episodes such as Restless. I'd also point out, for what it's worth, that S8 didn't feature either of them for the vast majority of it's run (as far as we knew, anyway) and it was the highest selling season of the comics by a wide margin. I really enjoy both characters and I won't downplay the wonderful contributions both brought to the show but the fact of the matter is that the show can and has been successful without either of them. It wouldn't automatically fail if they didn't appear.

    Personally, I would like for them both to appear because I'd love to see all the characters again. I'd be willing to suspend my belief at their very obvious ageing, even if it'd be kind of depressing, because at the end of the day I'd still love to see them. But you could still tell a very good story without either character. To be honest, whenever I think of a revival, I think that the most worthwhile story to tell would be what Buffy's life is is like as a 40 year old woman and the new 'demons' she'd face well into adulthood as opposed to what she went through as a teenager. It's a very obvious storyline and I think it'd be really interesting and worth telling. When I think of Angel and Spike I don't think there's such an obvious storyline. The only real interest, I guess, is what kind of role they play in middle aged Buffy's life but as their own characters I don't see such an obvious story as I do with Buffy or the Scoobies.

    If they weren't to appear there'd be a lot of upset and bitter hardcore fans but there'd be also be a reemergence of a lot of casual fans/new fans coming out of the woodwork who would be very excited about the revival. At the end of the day people have to remember that what's left of the hardcore fanbase probably have very different viewpoints of the show than general fans.
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    Vampires, yes. Friendly vampires? No, you don't need them; they were never intended. It's not a disgusting attitude, it's the simple truth. If there was a Buffy revival/reboot without Spike, y'all wouldn't watch. If it went on with Spike and not Angel, certain others would not watch. It has nothing to do with Buffy, the character or show.
    I don't think this is true at all. Philosophically the only way Buffy works is if she can see Vampires and demons that are not all monsters, they they do have a capacity for emotion and feeling. Otherwise the Watchers Council and their dogma win. The whole point of Buffy as feminist show is for the Watchers Council, and their ilk, not to win. Or the show has no meaning and might as well be Charmed or Supernatural, which is what this reboot will become
    Never much cared for picket fences, anyway. Bloody dangerous.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Priceless View Post
    I don't think this is true at all. Philosophically the only way Buffy works is if she can see Vampires and demons that are not all monsters, they they do have a capacity for emotion and feeling. Otherwise the Watchers Council and their dogma win. The whole point of Buffy as feminist show is for the Watchers Council, and their ilk, not to win. Or the show has no meaning and might as well be Charmed or Supernatural, which is what this reboot will become
    Since when has the Watcher's Council's views on demons been an integral part of the show? Aside from the brief "it's not Council policy to cure vampires" we've barely even heard their opinion on creatures like Angel and Spike?

    There's a lot of conflict between Buffy and the Council but Buffy's vampire boyfriends have almost never been related to it. Almost all the conflict revolved around how they viewed and treated her, not demons.
    Last edited by vampmogs; 16-03-18 at 10:36 AM.
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    vampmogs
    To be honest, whenever I think of a revival, I think that the most worthwhile story to tell would be what Buffy's life is is like as a 40 year old woman and the new 'demons' she'd face well into adulthood as opposed to what she went through as a teenager. It's a very obvious storyline and I think it'd be really interesting and worth telling.
    If we are talking about a reboot and not a remake, that would probably be the only way, to tell the story. Ignore the comics and drop Angel and Spike as characters, because the actors have simply aged. You could of course have one of them or even both as humans, but I can`t imagine, that would make an interesting story. At least not for a whole season.

    I don`t know, if they would want to have NB on the set, because of his personal issues. AH has just started a new show, but if that does not work, she might join. Faith and Dawn might be an interesting addition too.

    As Sunnydale is gone, we need a different Setting. We all know, Cleveland has a hellmouth. But to be quiet honest - a 40 year old Buffy, living on the hellmouth in Cleveland with her little (now in her late thirties) sister and Faith, both having slayed demons and vampires for decades now and Giles occassionaly calling from Bath, where he lives since he retired - that sounds really really depressing to me. It would be, as if Buffy has never grown, never developed as a Person. She would be stuck in an endless circle, like she was in Life Serial.

    I`d rather have a spin off,like bespangled suggested, with Faith as a watcher, Buffy making a couple of cameo appearances and just a whole new crew of slayers, demons, humans and vampires.

    Or do a reboot, likeHardly There said, as an animated series with the old characters still in High School in Sunnydale.

    But that is not, what they have in mind, if the talk about a reboot, is it ?

    I just hope, that Joss doesn`t want to or can`t come up with stories for a forty year old Buffy.........Or that SMG will never come back as Buffy.

    flow
    Last edited by flow; 16-03-18 at 09:40 AM.
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    I think some are underestimating how popular the vamp characters were and still are, and I think anyone who attempts a remake will realise that.

    Also as much as I adore the original cast I can't see them using the original actors as age has taken It's toll with most of them, and sadly today It's all about 'youth'....that is unless they manage to write a convincing reason why for example, the vamp characters have aged so much.

    Oh god, and It goes without saying ignore the damn comics. That would just confuse the general audience imo as well as show how damn bad the writing can be.
    Last edited by Silver1; 16-03-18 at 10:25 AM.

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    But that's what people claim to want. New Buffy that's the same as Old Buffy.
    I think there are a lot of different things in this thread that people claim to want.

    Vampires, yes. Friendly vampires? No, you don't need them; they were never intended. It's not a disgusting attitude, it's the simple truth. If there was a Buffy revival/reboot without Spike, y'all wouldn't watch. If it went on with Spike and not Angel, certain others would not watch. It has nothing to do with Buffy, the character or show.
    It may be what was intended before the series, but it isn't what was shown. The universe has developed far past Whedon's original ideas. Wanting to see specific characters has everything to do with the show - the characters and events are the show. There are fans of both vampires - just as there are fans of Willow, Xander, and Giles who would like to see them again. How Buffy interacted with them is her story - the story of a slayer with family and friends, the story of a woman who created champions. Taking one character and putting them in a new show is called a spinoff - like Angel the Series. It isn't a reboot or a revival. That said, even Angel had several characters from BTVS.

    The despicable attitude is how you characterize fans who disagree with you. This is not about Buffy at all. Can we just admit that? It's about fans of INSERT CHARACTER thinking their fav is the main character. It doesn't have a thing to do with her; it's about who gets her. Loving the same show isn't enough? Everyone has to love it just like you do?

    Yes, it was about growing up. That was the point. Buffy's life continued post-Angel and without Angel. Buffy's life could and would continue without Sunnydale or Spike. Going back to the original statement, you don't need either to continue to tell her story any more than you need her to continue theirs. If you're referring to me saying Buffy was rebooted, I was referring to the movie->TV show.
    I see - so you picture something as similar as the movie was to the show. Basically the reboot would be taking SMG and giving her back the name of Buffy - then giving her a completely different life. I don't see that attracting a lot of new fans. SMG is over 40 so the younger crowd won't have an automatic draw. The story, as we both said, is about growing up. Buffy is an adult now, and I can't see an iteration of the B-verse that examines growing old. I'd still prefer an updated show - different characters somewhere in the B-verse.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vampmogs View Post
    Since when has the Watcher's Council's views on demons been an integral part of the show? Aside from the brief "it's not Council party to cure vampires" we've barely even heard their opinion on creatures like Angel and Spike?

    There's a lot of conflict between Buffy and the Council but Buffy's vampire boyfriends have almost never been related to it. Almost all the conflict revolved around how they viewed and treated her, not demons.
    All I can say is that we are watching from a different place and seeing different things, and that's fine. For me, The Watchers Council are the ones who tell Buffy she is chosen, they are the ones who mould her and inform her of her duties, they are an integral part of who Buffy is and how she views demons. She would have no clue at all that she was The Chosen One, without the Watchers Council and their manipulations.

    The WC are insidious, they inform every part of Buffy's personality and 'calling' and therefore they inform every part of relations with others, including her vamp boyfriends. It's the WC that tell her to lie to her mother and not to tell her who she really is, it's the WC who tell her all demons are evil, it's the WC who tell her she's the chosen one, who tell her she has to fight. Buffy internalises their teachings and takes them as her own.

    Later, in the comics, when every slayer has been called, we see that some slayers don't follow their calling and choose not to join the fight. Buffy never has that choice because she's owned by the Watcher Council from the age of 15. I feel that the WC are essential in making Buffy who she is, and that's partly what makes it a feminist show because she slowly has to disentangle them and their teachings from her life.
    Never much cared for picket fences, anyway. Bloody dangerous.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Priceless View Post
    All I can say is that we are watching from a different place and seeing different things, and that's fine. For me, The Watchers Council are the ones who tell Buffy she is chosen, they are the ones who mould her and inform her of her duties, they are an integral part of who Buffy is and how she views demons. She would have no clue at all that she was The Chosen One, without the Watchers Council and their manipulations.

    The WC are insidious, they inform every part of Buffy's personality and 'calling' and therefore they inform every part of relations with others, including her vamp boyfriends. It's the WC that tell her to lie to her mother and not to tell her who she really is, it's the WC who tell her all demons are evil, it's the WC who tell her she's the chosen one, who tell her she has to fight. Buffy internalises their teachings and takes them as her own.

    Later, in the comics, when every slayer has been called, we see that some slayers don't follow their calling and choose not to join the fight. Buffy never has that choice because she's owned by the Watcher Council from the age of 15. I feel that the WC are essential in making Buffy who she is, and that's partly what makes it a feminist show because she slowly has to disentangle them and their teachings from her life.
    I mean, I don't disagree that a large part of the feminist message of the show is Buffy breaking free from the constraints of the Council and forging her own path. However, where I do disagree is your insistence that the inclusion of Buffy's vamp boyfriends make or break the philosophy of the show. Not only is it IMO wrong to give them so much credit but I think it's also a stretch because whenever I think of the Council and their mistreatment of Buffy, their viewpoints on demons would probably be the last thing I think about. As I said, we haven't seen nearly enough to suggest one way or another their feelings about Angel and Spike because the writers never explored it. Apart from their rigid stance on helping vampires in Graduation Day I we have absolutely nothing in canon to suggest they even have much an opinion on ensouled vampires or that that they share, say, the Initiative's black & white and ignorant view of the demon world. Not to mention that besides some very specific circumstances like with Angel or Spike Buffy very much shares the Council's belief that she should be slaying vampires and demons and that this is the right thing to do. The fact that she can distinguish between good and bad demons is great but there's really nothing to suggest that the Council would disapprove of this. Giles and Wesley were both Watchers and seemed more than willing to work with good demons (Giles even set the demon Shaman up with his wife as stated in Enemies).

    It just strikes me as a reach, that's all. There's really little textual support one way or another to determine what exactly the Council's views on demons are other than the fact that the bad ones should be killed -- which is the whole premise of the show. There's actually far more text to support The Initiative's black & white views on the world (and they represent the hyper masculine as stated in the commentary for Restless) than there is the Council. And whilst I certainly think that the Council did represent the patriarchy and it was an empowering moment when Buffy stood up to them, I just don't credit it as being important to the show as you do when I consider that the 'Council' wasn't even referred to or created until BtVS S3 and then only ever appeared again in 3 episodes after that. Buffy quit the Council in S3 and then defied them for one last time in S5 and then... kinda moved on. It was a personal victory for her but I don't get the strong link between the Council and her vamp boyfriends or certainly that the show loses it's meaning without Angel and Spike around. Buffy can and has carried the show fine without them and I certainly don't think the feminist philosophy of the show is dependant on two male characters.

    I mean, it's also worth pointing out that whilst Buffy's nurturing and belief in Angel and Spike and have certainly been positives messages and themes in the show, it's also true that the writers have at times used both Angel and Spike as obstacles Buffy must overcome to empower herself. Whether that be kicking Angel in the balls in Innocence or dumping Spike in As You Were and both literally and symbolically stepping back into the light.
    Last edited by vampmogs; 16-03-18 at 01:53 PM.
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    I don't understand one thing: why should it be called Buffy at all?

    Buffy as a character was shaped by everything that happened to her and all the people in her life. If you want to reboot the show and not continue or remake it, so you're changing the story and other characters - you're also changing the main character's arc.

    If it's just about an empowered young woman/Slayer, it could be another Slayer, not Buffy. If you really want a Slayer with basic traits like Buffy speak, humor and wit, sassy attitude, unabashed 'girlishness' combined with the physical fighting, courage and responsibility as well as a desire for normal life, friends and family and relationships - again, it can be another female character. There are in fact, plenty of fictional female characters nowadays who share some of this character traits, or were inspired by Buffy (and there are also characters that inspired Buffy, like Kitty Pryde). Why not make it about "_____ (insert name) Vampire Slayer"?

    You would then also have the freedom to change the characters' ethnicity, nationality and other traits You don't have to have a white blonde Californian/American girl Buffy.

    But as to the idea of a 40 year old Slayer - err, why not? That, would, in fact, be really interesting. And why exactly would a Slayer doing her calling at 40 be "depressing"? Do people stop doing their job when they reach 40?

    Actually, I'd love to see a 60 year old Slayer even more, that would be even more interesting.
    You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

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  27. #55
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    I thought 'Passion of the Nerd's' brief take on his youtube channel yesterday rings home for me re- any kind of remake/re-boot.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HXv9PoKnJk

    Skip to the 23.14 min mark on the video.

    Just as an aside I found this (then) live feed really interesting. Lots of nice observations on the show as a whole.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Oh and @sosa lola there's a bit about the whole Xander hate bit at the 1.53 min mark.
    Last edited by Silver1; 17-03-18 at 12:24 PM.

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