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Thread: Season 12 Announced!

  1. #821
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    Quote Originally Posted by betta View Post
    No, not even that. Buffy doesn't want to be powerless (never did, since the show), and she can't deal with "not fighting" either.

    In the beginning of S11, Dawn commented how unsettled Buffy seemed to her, saying she was just restless because things had been quiet. Then the Shenlong happened. After this battle was won, a year has passed, and Buffy herself says she can't even be in a relationship when things are quiet, that she feels she can't do well with normal.

    The only way she could be truly happy (if she doesn't do some therapy to accept the quiet times), is lose her powers - and her memory of one day having been a Slayer.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I saw the opposite; Buffy gets restless, unsettled in times without fighting. In the beginning of S11, it had been just months, in the beginning of S12, a year - quiet times, in a safe and loving relationship, with a new baby in the family to play aunty, and she is feeling gray isn't her thing, thinking she will end up screwing up if she gets a regular job. What she doesn't want is normal, for sure, it scares the hell out of her.
    Point of distinction, are we talking Buffy the character as a whole or the constant revisions Gage makes to characterizations? Buffy as a character from S1 onward, none of it makes sense. For current comics revision, that could be where it goes. Buffy never had an issue being a slayer or fighting demons and in fact, balked at the idea of not being able to do so.

    Even in this context, it's senseless. The very first Scooby pages of S12 are Buffy walking around with the Scythe. Why is she doing that if things are quiet? What happened to regular vamps and demons with ill intent? It's so hard to judge this crap because they constantly fail at consistency and move goalposts.

    Overall, there is no such thing as truly happy. The reason they broke up was mutual and so far there has been nothing to say otherwise despite reading into Jeanty's art 3 sentences after declaring how terrible it is.

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  3. #822
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    Ugh - not a fan of this preview at all. The "clever banter while fighting" between Spike and Angel reminds me of Legolas and Gimli - and not in a good way. Their dialogue in Buffy Season Two and Angel Season Five was far more clever and emotionally charged.

    It's weird - you know what Gage is going for, but he never quite makes it work. Every moment of this (and former comic seasons by Gage) feels like a bone throw to this or that fandom without ever quite getting to the point. It's all grand moments and Easter eggs and sly winks without a cohesive framework or even a good story line. It feels as if Whedon gave him a basic outline and Gage is hitting all the points - but it's empty noise. The dialogue is awkward, the art is rudimentary, the characterization is a pale echo of the original.

    It's really difficult for me to turn from the series - even the worst episodes - and see this as the final ending point. There's nothing original here - just repetitive tropes from episodes long ago. Whether Buffy sacrifices herself (The Gift) or goes back to a reality in which she isn't the Slayer (Normal Again), it's been done before and it's not how I hoped it would end. And after all the struggles of Angel and Spike in their respective character arcs, it would be disappointing if the idea of the shanshu - or at least the idea of redemption - didn't make a final appearance as it did in Not Fade Away.

    But for all I know, Whedon will do something really annoying like pull a Sopranos ending and leave it all open-ended. Or snow globe the whole thing as a dream.
    Last edited by American Aurora; 10-08-18 at 03:46 AM.

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  5. #823
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    Quote Originally Posted by HardlyThere View Post
    Point of distinction, are we talking Buffy the character as a whole or the constant revisions Gage makes to characterizations? Buffy as a character from S1 onward, none of it makes sense. For current comics revision, that could be where it goes. Buffy never had an issue being a slayer or fighting demons and in fact, balked at the idea of not being able to do so.
    I don't see any revision; Buffy has never wanted to be powerless, but she wanted some normalcy in her life. At 29, 30, maybe she wanted something more than just fighting monsters - or thought she wanted it.

    She used to think that normalcy wasn't for her, that she didn't allow anyone to be close to her for being The Slayer, that she had done this to herself (what she said to Spike in Touched). This was sorted out when she realized she had to seize the day, don't allow life pass by her and try a relationship with the manpire she was in love with - while saying how she was terrified, but knew very well how to deal with... scary. When the scary part was over - the world was at peace for the longest time (on the show wasn't just the period of Summer?) and she was in a non-drama relationship for the first time (no unpleasant surprises like when she was with Angel and Riley), Buffy got... unsettled. Restless. Bored.

    Even in this context, it's senseless. The very first Scooby pages of S12 are Buffy walking around with the Scythe. Why is she doing that if things are quiet? What happened to regular vamps and demons with ill intent? It's so hard to judge this crap because they constantly fail at consistency and move goalposts.
    Night patrols may not satisfy Buffy anymore... too mundane, she even declined the police job, because... "it's not for her". And it's sad and worrying if she can't live without chaos and mayhem anymore. Walking around with the Scythe? I guess it was just for the baby's gag.
    Last edited by betta; 10-08-18 at 04:40 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Dutchess View Post
    I like that idea! And I also just can't see Buffy being killed for the third (and final) time. But I think it is still possible that she'll willingly give up her Slayer powers and go into "retirement" from slaying. (Possibly to lead a "normal" life together with her two former vampire lovers who have also turned into regular humans )
    I really don't want to see Buffy have to give up her strength to save the world, and I am not sure Joss would go for that story either. BtVS was about being strong, accepting your strength, sharing it and using it for good. To go back on that, as HardlyThere says, would be the opposite of the message of the tv show.

    Of course Joss could cage it in 'it's your decision to be strong or not and it could be a sign of strength to give up your power for others/to save the world' . . .

    - - - Updated - - -

    There is a basic ambiguity within Buffy the character. She wants it all. She want's to be both the normal girl and to have powers and fight for good. I thought she'd learnt to integrate both sides of her persona is S7, but Season 12 is taking us back to an earlier version of Buffy, or playing all her history at once. I still think this is what is happening here, that the whole of her history is playing out simultaneously. Virtually every line is a repeat of something else, every character is a mix of every other character and that has to mean something. I'm sticking to that theory till the end of issue 4

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    Quote Originally Posted by betta View Post
    I don't see any revision; Buffy has never wanted to be powerless, but she wanted some normalcy in her life. At 29, 30, maybe she wanted something more than just fighting monsters - or thought she wanted it.

    She used to think that normalcy wasn't for her, that she didn't allow anyone to be close to her for being The Slayer, that she had done this to herself (what she said to Spike in Touched). This was sorted out when she realized she had to seize the day, don't allow life pass by her and try a relationship with the manpire she was in love with - while saying how she was terrified, but knew very well how to deal with... scary. When the scary part was over - the world was at peace for the longest time (on the show wasn't just the period of Summer?) and she was in a non-drama relationship for the first time (no unpleasant surprises like when she was with Angel and Riley), Buffy got... unsettled. Restless. Bored.
    You notice how you ignored a few seasons? She had that "sorted out" in S7. It's the segue to the CD speech. Then it was conveniently retconned/forgotten off and on for 3 seasons.

    What you stated in the first sentence is Buffy throughout the whole show. She never had any problems with having powers for fighting demons. This "normalcy" crap is just that. It's conjured up and contrived nonsense right from fanfic. "The reason Spuffy wouldn't work is Buffy wants NORMAL! Stupid girl." No. All the girl ever wanted was to have a life outside of it and yes, some stability outside of it. Not really normal, as superpowered Riley was anything but, but maybe not having to worry about having to have to put down your lover at some point or the world ending because you got some.

    Night patrols may not satisfy Buffy anymore... too mundane, she even declined the police job, because... "it's not for her". And it's sad and worrying if she can't live without chaos and mayhem anymore. Walking around with the Scythe? I guess it was just for the baby's gag.
    Ah, so now she's an adrenaline junkie. That explains it. What about Spike, who's totally on board with this idea that without it, they just don't work? Lemme guess, THAT part of it is just bad writing...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Priceless View Post

    There is a basic ambiguity within Buffy the character. She wants it all. She want's to be both the normal girl and to have powers and fight for good. I thought she'd learnt to integrate both sides of her persona is S7, but Season 12 is taking us back to an earlier version of Buffy, or playing all her history at once. I still think this is what is happening here, that the whole of her history is playing out simultaneously. Virtually every line is a repeat of something else, every character is a mix of every other character and that has to mean something. I'm sticking to that theory till the end of issue 4
    Jesus, she doesn't want it all. She wants to sometimes have a choice in her own life. Is this concept really so hard to get for people? You have a job, right? Maybe you write? OK, you now have to write. 20 hours a day. All your life until you die from it. No vacations, nothing. You cant even leave your town.

    Do you "want it all" if maybe you dream of taking a break from it? Maybe having a choice in it? I would say no.

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    I don't think Buffy figured out how to integrate her human/slayer side in Season 7. In fact, I'd argue that in Season 7 her Slayer responsibilities swallowed her life almost completely (eventually resulting in her losing her job at the high school) and Buffy became more detached from normalcy and more succumbed by her Slayer responsibilities than she had ever been in Seasons 1-6. It was reflective of the season as a whole. The season became very plot-driven and almost entirely consumed with The First/Potentials/Apocalypse and Buffy was very rarely shown living a "normal" life (hanging out at the Bronze, going to school or college, working at the Doublemeat Palace, her romantic relationships etc) as she had been in the previous seasons. In Touched Buffy gives one final exasperated and sad protest to the whole thing ("What if I don't want to be the one?") and that was a mere 3 episodes before the finale.

    It's true that Buffy faced up to some truths ("Being the Slayer made me different but it's my fault I stayed that way") although I'd argue that, as per usual, she was being too hard on herself there, but Buffy was more consumed by her destiny in Season 7 than she'd ever been. What Season 7 does do is give her an 'out' in the end or, if not an 'out', then at least a future full of possibilities ("You're not the one and only Chosen anymore. Just gotta live like a person. How does that feel?") but the season ends on the widening of her hopeful smile. We never actually get to see how she finally finds that balance, or if she ever did.
    Last edited by vampmogs; 11-08-18 at 05:17 AM.
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    Jesus, she doesn't want it all. She wants to sometimes have a choice in her own life. Is this concept really so hard to get for people? You have a job, right? Maybe you write? OK, you now have to write. 20 hours a day. All your life until you die from it. No vacations, nothing. You cant even leave your town.

    Do you "want it all" if maybe you dream of taking a break from it? Maybe having a choice in it? I would say no.
    I would agree, if Buffy had a job, but she doesn't. She was told it was a calling, something she can't get away from. She is stuck with it. If I had a job that got me down so much it nearly destroyed me, I could walk away, Buffy cannot. That's the difference. Slaying isn't a just a job, it's become part of who she is - seen in Prophecy Girl when she tried to walk away. The 'slayer' goes too deep to cut away, it's part of her. She believes she has not choice, which leaves the only choice is to integrate, which I believe she did in S7.

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    HardlyThere I really think the sarcasm can be off-putting and disruptive for a pleasant discussion where people feel comfortable voicing their thoughts, it made me think twice about joining to be honest.

    I think normalcy for Buffy was always about a life without the pressures and duty of being the slayer, rather than not having the powers and strength she does. Whenever she lost those we've seen her dislike it and the last time, in S11, it was clear how very much a part of who she is that she feels they are. But having to put aspects of her life to one side because of her duty and/or accepting the greater possibility of a limited future because of the risk and sacrifice others don't take on the weight of, were often a major feature for Buffy. Once they performed the empowerment spell Buffy theoretically had the option of walking away from it all. Heck, in S9 she even was given the option of specifically using her powers and strengths for a profession and we saw her longingly gaze at the suburban life the robot Buffy was hidden away in. But her choice was to neither use her strengths just for a pay cheque or to fade away into the background. She wanted to be The Slayer and keep that as her day to day focus. I think she took it on then in a different way to how she had before and it felt like a new stage in her life.

    Part of her wanting to give a relationship with Spike a chance in S10-11 was about how she has come to view her life and what fits into it on a daily basis for her. This was of course greatly affected by Spike's shifted wish to belong and integrate more than he has before, putting himself into her life on a different footing. Resulting in Buffy describing it to Andrew along the lines of seeing what was always there or some such. Of course the practical ways that the human/vampire divide could put up barriers was nodded to again. So it wasn't a surprise when we saw her questioning how her life was progressing at the start of S11 with Dawn in comparison to the others. The attack and resulting Government actions became a sudden and engulfing focus though. I've only read the issues once so could be forgetting something for sure, but it seems to me it could work that her apparent return to that sense of drifting at the start of S12 was because the drama of S11 had papered over that discontent. That this now relates to why she is feeling the issue of having nothing to fight is a problem she says is more about herself than the relationship not working, as it seems had been the conclusion before. She's back to thinking they were fine, or at least that it wasn't 'them', and it's about her. And we're told that its raw for Spike too, so it isn't feeling like something he is happy about even if it was accepted tbh. And now the next life threat has come up and distracted them again.

    So really the focus has swung back to whether Buffy has a future and if she does, what would she want to do with it? Sure there are repeats that come up in her concerns and sometimes things that are seemingly settled you find out aren't when they bother you again or you realise you've misinterpreted what was the underlying issue before. I think all of that is just relatable and how life goes. You live, you change, sometimes you move backwards, you reassess, you move forwards. My biggest concern for S12 is that it has become more about where Joss wants it to end up (looking to tie up Fray and possibly position it to work with the new slayer project on the horizon) in a really short run, than it is about steadily exploring/working through a coherent path from where they had got to to where he wants it to be. So those jumps we've been given feel too big and a gulf that hasn't been bridged yet. But I'm reserving judgment until the end of the season, when hindsight can be my greatest friend.
    Last edited by Stoney; 11-08-18 at 05:56 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stoney View Post
    So it wasn't a surprise when we saw her questioning how her life was progressing at the start of S11 with Dawn in comparison to the others. The attack and resulting Government actions became a sudden and engulfing focus though. I've only read the issues once so could be forgetting something for sure, but it seems to me it could work that her apparent return to that sense of drifting at the start of S12 was because the drama of S11 had papered over that discontent. That this now relates to why she is feeling the issue of having nothing to fight is a problem she says is more about herself than the relationship not working, as it seems had been the conclusion before. She's back to thinking they were fine, or at least that it wasn't 'them', and it's about her. And we're told that its raw for Spike too, so it isn't feeling like something he is happy about even if it was accepted tbh. And now the next life threat has come up and distracted them again.
    The bolded parts are mine - we've taken the repetition of the dialogue as something else other than show Buffy's unsettleness, but it may be just it.

    We don't know what happened after that hopeful smile Buffy had in her face after the Sunnydale battle; 18 months passed till we saw her again, in S8. Maybe she felt miserable most of the time (before chaos ensued) and hid her feelings from her friends. In the beginning of S11, Dawn noticed that her sister wasn't OK. In the beginning of S12, it was Willow who talked to Buffy. So, having activated all the Potentials in S7 didn't mean anything to Buffy personally, in the sense she would, from then on, have choices: to keep fighting or retire.

    Buffy said in S11 she didn't feel that to be a Slayer was a burden anymore; the problem now, we can infer, is that not being a Slayer and not having something to fight for is the "burden".

    - - - Updated - - -

    Buffy isn't the one who takes the back seat and feels OK with a quiet life. She's a workaholic.

    Spoiler:
    Last edited by betta; 11-08-18 at 09:11 PM.
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