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Thread: Lies My Parents Told Me

  1. #121
    Slayer flow's Avatar
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    I guess, I am a little bit on Willow from Buffy's side here because I also don't really know with whom to side. The outcome did prove Buffy and Spike to be right but that was just by coincidence. Or better to say it was a writers choice which wasn't based on the facts we know. But neither was Giles assumption that Spike is still triggered and thus a danger.

    The problem is that the whole trigger/prokaryote thing mixes up fiction and reality. It is a bit like that with Faith and Deputy Mayor Allan Finch. In a reality with vampires she was acting in self-defence (although maybe negligently because she didn't take the time to check his pulse). In a reality without vampires (or in a reality denying their existence) she would have gone to prison for manslaughter although his death wasn't her fault. Would it have been fair to send Faith to prison for a crime she did not comitt? No. Was Buffy still right to say they needed to tell someone? Yes. I don't know with whom to side on that.

    A (trauma) trigger exists in reality. It is a stimulus that can cause a flashback to a traumatic experience. In this case the trigger would be the song and the traumatic event would be Anne verbally abusing and sexually assaulting Spike.

    Brainwashing a sleeper to make them act on a ceratin signal (could be a song) is entirely fictional and can (yet) not happen in reality.

    LMPTM uses the trigger-song in two ways. It's the signal code for carrying out a certain action (killing and siring people or biting Andrew) and it's the stimulus for flashbacks to Spike' s traumatic memory of his mother hitting on him. It's not really explained if and how those two are connected to each other. Giles says that the song causes the traumatic memory to surface and that causes Spike to kill. But we don't know where he got this information from and if it is valid at all or if using the song as a signal code would have made Spike kill without the traumitc memories. After all we do not see the memory surface because of the song before the scene in Wood's garage and then it does not turn Spike into a killer machine but makes him realize and overcome the trauma instead.

    Which is, as Willow from Buffy said, an easy solution.

    I am left with a few questions:

    - Does Spike remember his mother assaulting him before the scene in Woods garage happens or is this a memory that is so traumatic he had repressed it?

    - Why does the prokaryote leave Spike's brain? Was it not working? Had it done it's deed? Had Spike rejected it? Consciously? Subconsciously?

    - Was the prokaryote supposed to heal Spike by just bringing back the one problematic memory? If so, why would it have been necessary for Spike to tell anyone about this memory?

    There has been quite a debate about the chains. As far as I understand it Spike was only supposed to be chained for the procedure with the prokaryote because no one knew if he would turn into a Monster during the ritual/psychotherapy. Why would there have been a need to keep him chained after the ritual was finished? Except of course for the fact that he was potentially dangerous all the time. But other characters been a target of The First's manipulations as well. Since they did not know (and we still don't) how the trigger was implanted in Spike's brain we don't even know who else was a sleeper. But since The First was very keen on having Spike killed there was a strong argument he was not a tool for The First Evil anymore.

    flow

    - - - Updated - - -

    I have an additional thought:

    Had Spike been left in chains Robin could easily have dusted him. No need to even involve Giles. Just sneak into the basement, put a stake to his heart and Nikki would have been revenged.

    Of course Buffy doesn’t know this. She doesn’t unchain Spike because she thinks „Oh, Robin could stake him.“ But you could say her intuition was right once again. Or you could say the writers made it right.

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  3. #122
    Scooby Gang bespangled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vampmogs View Post
    bespangled, I'm not going to respond to you point by point because I've noticed that once again that you have completely ignored my comments about the danger Spike posed by unchaining himself as well the inaction of both Buffy and Spike throughout Season 7 to deal with the trigger. I've made these points several times now and you've noticeably failed to respond to any of them. I suspect this is because these kinds of details don't fit into the simplified narrative you've carved out of the story which, to be honest, only convinces me further that your interpretation only works if you wilfully ignore all the facts.

    But I will repeat them again because they're worth repeating;

    - Buffy and Spike did nothing for weeks (if not months) about the trigger
    - Buffy stated in "LMPTM" that "the trigger wasn't active anymore" and was proven wrong
    - Buffy stated the stone "didn't work" and was proven wrong
    - The Potentials distrust Buffy because she took their safety "for granted" by letting Spike roam free whilst triggered ("So Spike's trigger has been active this entire time?")

    Those are the facts and you've failed to address any of them at all. Until you offer some acknowledgement of these facts or even a rebuttal, there is no point in us continuing this discussion. They're incredibly integral to the story as it were told and why Buffy and Giles were at odds with each other. Ignoring them because they're inconvenient is ignoring half the story.

    However, I will respond to this;



    Please do not put words into my mouth or imply sexism on my part in anyway. It's beneath you and it's a low personal attack. For the last time, I have pointed out to you that Spike asked Buffy to unchain him because you factually and incorrectly stated that Spike only agreed to be unchained because "that's what Buffy wanted." That is wrong.

    Again, Spike clearly states - "Get these sodding things off me! I'm fine!" Spike did not only agree to be unchained because Buffy wanted him to be. Spike angrily told Buffy to unchain him.

    Those facts may once again be inconvenient to you but they indisputably happened. That is the sequence of events as it played out in the episode. I have quoted the episode word-for-word.

    My point never had anything to do with Buffy or her motives or decisions. My point was that Spike wanted to be unchained entirely independent of what Buffy did or did not want. That is all. So can we please stop with the straw man arguments and refer back to the part of your post I was actually responding to.
    I actually did acknowledge tall of your points in the exchange before this one. I said that Buffy and Spike were in denial, and that they believed they had dodged a bullet. That covers the first three. The fourth one is a bit overstated but I will say we saw 3 or 4 potentials who were bothered. I don't see their fear as huge because at most we saw concern and it was over by the end of the episode.

    As for how dangerous Spike truly was, I also covered that. What we see with Wood is completely different that what we have seen when Spike was triggered previously. That doesn't mean he isn't dangerous - that means new variables were introduced in that fight against Wood. The other times Spike was triggered he did not turn into an animal and attack. During this fight he also didn't lose time and was completely cognizant of everything that had gone on during the fight. My point is that the danger we saw after the stone was used to bring back memories, and during a murder attempt in a hostile place is not at all characteristic of the danger we have seen all along.

    MY final point is that Spike did want to get out of the chains but if Buffy had said no, he would have sulked and accepted it. He's only in the chains because Buffy wanted him to do this. As far as Spike is concerned Buffy is the Slayer, and she is the only one everyone should be paying attention to. My complaint regarding the just a girl thing is that is how Giles sees her. After 6 years of her saving everyone's ass, he has decided she can't be trusted to make this decision because - well, she's just a girl who likes a guy too much.

    There's nothing here that I haven't said before but it was probably lost in all the exchanges. Having acknowledged your points I am waiting for you to discuss mine.


    - Why did Giles have no problem with Spike wandering around the house unchipped and unchained in episodes precious to this? What has chained so radically that now he wants Spike dusted?

    - Why did Giles undercut himself by arranging the session in such a way that success in retrieving Spike's memories and detriggering him was almost impossible. Remember, this isn't about Spike's feelings - it's about Giles competence and/or his agenda?

    - Why did Giles choose to lecture Buffy on being a general while he was stalling her - and even after he discovered Spike was alive continue to lecture Buffy on how she needed to make the choices he told her to make? What was he hoping to achieve?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Actually Buffy and Spike found out about the trigger in episode 9, and immediately thereafter Spike was taken by the first. In Potential Spike is staying close to Buffy while they train Potentials. Unchipped free range Spike is unchaperoned for 3 weeks...during which Giles has no complaints.
    Last edited by bespangled; Yesterday at 01:12 AM.
    Can we agree that the writers made everyone do and say everything with a thought to getting good ratings and being renewed. This includes everything we love as well as everything we hate.

  4. #123
    Scooby Gang Willow from Buffy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flow View Post
    It's not really explained if and how those two are connected to each other. Giles says that the song causes the traumatic memory to surface and that causes Spike to kill. But we don't know where he got this information from and if it is valid at all or if using the song as a signal code would have made Spike kill without the traumitc memories. After all we do not see the memory surface because of the song before the scene in Wood's garage and then it does not turn Spike into a killer machine but makes him realize and overcome the trauma instead.
    This is my theory: We know the First has the ability to enter minds and control dreams. As Spike had a suppressed memory, the First had a blindspot inside which it could create elaborate programming without Spike finding out. When Spike hears the song, Spike retreats from consciousness, allowing the implanted programming to take free reign.

    Quote Originally Posted by flow View Post
    - Does Spike remember his mother assaulting him before the scene in Woods garage happens or is this a memory that is so traumatic he had repressed it?
    I am convinced he does not remember that.

    Quote Originally Posted by flow View Post
    - Was the prokaryote supposed to heal Spike by just bringing back the one problematic memory? If so, why would it have been necessary for Spike to tell anyone about this memory?
    That's how psychotherapy works. It is called a talking cure. You try to identify the memory that caused a problem and then the patient has to talk about it. Usually, that is enough.

    People who are traumatised usually doesn't grieve. Grief is a healing process where the mind processes what has happened. Spike didn't grieve his mother or ever try to process what she had said to him after he turned her to a vampire. He just pushed it from his consciousness.

    I am quite disappointed that we don't see Spike grieve his mother after he regained the memory of her death. That could have been a powerful scene. And because he hasn't thought about this moment since it happened, he hasn't grieved yet.

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  6. #124
    Scooby Gang bespangled's Avatar
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    I think that Spike got some closure because at the very end of Anne dusting he face transformed into her loving mother face. There was forgiveness there, and reassurance. I'm not sure that he needed more. Grieving is such an individual process. It was clear that Anne was dying, and in that situation a person sometimes does most of their grieving before the death. I grieved the loss of my mother for years before she died as she could no longer hear, or see, or move at the very end. Her death was a release for her., and it was a relief for me. Spike might have done his grieving while watching his mother die of consumption (TB). Besides, he really is not much for self reflections (mirror joke hidden there).
    Can we agree that the writers made everyone do and say everything with a thought to getting good ratings and being renewed. This includes everything we love as well as everything we hate.

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