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Thread: Lies My Parents Told Me

  1. #121
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    I guess, I am a little bit on Willow from Buffy's side here because I also don't really know with whom to side. The outcome did prove Buffy and Spike to be right but that was just by coincidence. Or better to say it was a writers choice which wasn't based on the facts we know. But neither was Giles assumption that Spike is still triggered and thus a danger.

    The problem is that the whole trigger/prokaryote thing mixes up fiction and reality. It is a bit like that with Faith and Deputy Mayor Allan Finch. In a reality with vampires she was acting in self-defence (although maybe negligently because she didn't take the time to check his pulse). In a reality without vampires (or in a reality denying their existence) she would have gone to prison for manslaughter although his death wasn't her fault. Would it have been fair to send Faith to prison for a crime she did not comitt? No. Was Buffy still right to say they needed to tell someone? Yes. I don't know with whom to side on that.

    A (trauma) trigger exists in reality. It is a stimulus that can cause a flashback to a traumatic experience. In this case the trigger would be the song and the traumatic event would be Anne verbally abusing and sexually assaulting Spike.

    Brainwashing a sleeper to make them act on a ceratin signal (could be a song) is entirely fictional and can (yet) not happen in reality.

    LMPTM uses the trigger-song in two ways. It's the signal code for carrying out a certain action (killing and siring people or biting Andrew) and it's the stimulus for flashbacks to Spike' s traumatic memory of his mother hitting on him. It's not really explained if and how those two are connected to each other. Giles says that the song causes the traumatic memory to surface and that causes Spike to kill. But we don't know where he got this information from and if it is valid at all or if using the song as a signal code would have made Spike kill without the traumitc memories. After all we do not see the memory surface because of the song before the scene in Wood's garage and then it does not turn Spike into a killer machine but makes him realize and overcome the trauma instead.

    Which is, as Willow from Buffy said, an easy solution.

    I am left with a few questions:

    - Does Spike remember his mother assaulting him before the scene in Woods garage happens or is this a memory that is so traumatic he had repressed it?

    - Why does the prokaryote leave Spike's brain? Was it not working? Had it done it's deed? Had Spike rejected it? Consciously? Subconsciously?

    - Was the prokaryote supposed to heal Spike by just bringing back the one problematic memory? If so, why would it have been necessary for Spike to tell anyone about this memory?

    There has been quite a debate about the chains. As far as I understand it Spike was only supposed to be chained for the procedure with the prokaryote because no one knew if he would turn into a Monster during the ritual/psychotherapy. Why would there have been a need to keep him chained after the ritual was finished? Except of course for the fact that he was potentially dangerous all the time. But other characters been a target of The First's manipulations as well. Since they did not know (and we still don't) how the trigger was implanted in Spike's brain we don't even know who else was a sleeper. But since The First was very keen on having Spike killed there was a strong argument he was not a tool for The First Evil anymore.

    flow

    - - - Updated - - -

    I have an additional thought:

    Had Spike been left in chains Robin could easily have dusted him. No need to even involve Giles. Just sneak into the basement, put a stake to his heart and Nikki would have been revenged.

    Of course Buffy doesn’t know this. She doesn’t unchain Spike because she thinks „Oh, Robin could stake him.“ But you could say her intuition was right once again. Or you could say the writers made it right.

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  3. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by vampmogs View Post
    bespangled, I'm not going to respond to you point by point because I've noticed that once again that you have completely ignored my comments about the danger Spike posed by unchaining himself as well the inaction of both Buffy and Spike throughout Season 7 to deal with the trigger. I've made these points several times now and you've noticeably failed to respond to any of them. I suspect this is because these kinds of details don't fit into the simplified narrative you've carved out of the story which, to be honest, only convinces me further that your interpretation only works if you wilfully ignore all the facts.

    But I will repeat them again because they're worth repeating;

    - Buffy and Spike did nothing for weeks (if not months) about the trigger
    - Buffy stated in "LMPTM" that "the trigger wasn't active anymore" and was proven wrong
    - Buffy stated the stone "didn't work" and was proven wrong
    - The Potentials distrust Buffy because she took their safety "for granted" by letting Spike roam free whilst triggered ("So Spike's trigger has been active this entire time?")

    Those are the facts and you've failed to address any of them at all. Until you offer some acknowledgement of these facts or even a rebuttal, there is no point in us continuing this discussion. They're incredibly integral to the story as it were told and why Buffy and Giles were at odds with each other. Ignoring them because they're inconvenient is ignoring half the story.

    However, I will respond to this;



    Please do not put words into my mouth or imply sexism on my part in anyway. It's beneath you and it's a low personal attack. For the last time, I have pointed out to you that Spike asked Buffy to unchain him because you factually and incorrectly stated that Spike only agreed to be unchained because "that's what Buffy wanted." That is wrong.

    Again, Spike clearly states - "Get these sodding things off me! I'm fine!" Spike did not only agree to be unchained because Buffy wanted him to be. Spike angrily told Buffy to unchain him.

    Those facts may once again be inconvenient to you but they indisputably happened. That is the sequence of events as it played out in the episode. I have quoted the episode word-for-word.

    My point never had anything to do with Buffy or her motives or decisions. My point was that Spike wanted to be unchained entirely independent of what Buffy did or did not want. That is all. So can we please stop with the straw man arguments and refer back to the part of your post I was actually responding to.
    I actually did acknowledge tall of your points in the exchange before this one. I said that Buffy and Spike were in denial, and that they believed they had dodged a bullet. That covers the first three. The fourth one is a bit overstated but I will say we saw 3 or 4 potentials who were bothered. I don't see their fear as huge because at most we saw concern and it was over by the end of the episode.

    As for how dangerous Spike truly was, I also covered that. What we see with Wood is completely different that what we have seen when Spike was triggered previously. That doesn't mean he isn't dangerous - that means new variables were introduced in that fight against Wood. The other times Spike was triggered he did not turn into an animal and attack. During this fight he also didn't lose time and was completely cognizant of everything that had gone on during the fight. My point is that the danger we saw after the stone was used to bring back memories, and during a murder attempt in a hostile place is not at all characteristic of the danger we have seen all along.

    MY final point is that Spike did want to get out of the chains but if Buffy had said no, he would have sulked and accepted it. He's only in the chains because Buffy wanted him to do this. As far as Spike is concerned Buffy is the Slayer, and she is the only one everyone should be paying attention to. My complaint regarding the just a girl thing is that is how Giles sees her. After 6 years of her saving everyone's ass, he has decided she can't be trusted to make this decision because - well, she's just a girl who likes a guy too much.

    There's nothing here that I haven't said before but it was probably lost in all the exchanges. Having acknowledged your points I am waiting for you to discuss mine.


    - Why did Giles have no problem with Spike wandering around the house unchipped and unchained in episodes precious to this? What has chained so radically that now he wants Spike dusted?

    - Why did Giles undercut himself by arranging the session in such a way that success in retrieving Spike's memories and detriggering him was almost impossible. Remember, this isn't about Spike's feelings - it's about Giles competence and/or his agenda?

    - Why did Giles choose to lecture Buffy on being a general while he was stalling her - and even after he discovered Spike was alive continue to lecture Buffy on how she needed to make the choices he told her to make? What was he hoping to achieve?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Actually Buffy and Spike found out about the trigger in episode 9, and immediately thereafter Spike was taken by the first. In Potential Spike is staying close to Buffy while they train Potentials. Unchipped free range Spike is unchaperoned for 3 weeks...during which Giles has no complaints.
    Last edited by bespangled; 19-11-19 at 01:12 AM.
    Can we agree that the writers made everyone do and say everything with a thought to getting good ratings and being renewed. This includes everything we love as well as everything we hate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by flow View Post
    It's not really explained if and how those two are connected to each other. Giles says that the song causes the traumatic memory to surface and that causes Spike to kill. But we don't know where he got this information from and if it is valid at all or if using the song as a signal code would have made Spike kill without the traumitc memories. After all we do not see the memory surface because of the song before the scene in Wood's garage and then it does not turn Spike into a killer machine but makes him realize and overcome the trauma instead.
    This is my theory: We know the First has the ability to enter minds and control dreams. As Spike had a suppressed memory, the First had a blindspot inside which it could create elaborate programming without Spike finding out. When Spike hears the song, Spike retreats from consciousness, allowing the implanted programming to take free reign.

    Quote Originally Posted by flow View Post
    - Does Spike remember his mother assaulting him before the scene in Woods garage happens or is this a memory that is so traumatic he had repressed it?
    I am convinced he does not remember that.

    Quote Originally Posted by flow View Post
    - Was the prokaryote supposed to heal Spike by just bringing back the one problematic memory? If so, why would it have been necessary for Spike to tell anyone about this memory?
    That's how psychotherapy works. It is called a talking cure. You try to identify the memory that caused a problem and then the patient has to talk about it. Usually, that is enough.

    People who are traumatised usually doesn't grieve. Grief is a healing process where the mind processes what has happened. Spike didn't grieve his mother or ever try to process what she had said to him after he turned her to a vampire. He just pushed it from his consciousness.

    I am quite disappointed that we don't see Spike grieve his mother after he regained the memory of her death. That could have been a powerful scene. And because he hasn't thought about this moment since it happened, he hasn't grieved yet.

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    I think that Spike got some closure because at the very end of Anne dusting he face transformed into her loving mother face. There was forgiveness there, and reassurance. I'm not sure that he needed more. Grieving is such an individual process. It was clear that Anne was dying, and in that situation a person sometimes does most of their grieving before the death. I grieved the loss of my mother for years before she died as she could no longer hear, or see, or move at the very end. Her death was a release for her., and it was a relief for me. Spike might have done his grieving while watching his mother die of consumption (TB). Besides, he really is not much for self reflections (mirror joke hidden there).

    - - - Updated - - -

    vampmogs - no answer? I am disappointed. I did answer your questions.
    Can we agree that the writers made everyone do and say everything with a thought to getting good ratings and being renewed. This includes everything we love as well as everything we hate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bespangled View Post
    I actually did acknowledge tall of your points in the exchange before this one.
    I don't think a lot of this had been addressed. Especially my points about Buffy being wrong about both the trigger and the stone, but nevertheless;

    I said that Buffy and Spike were in denial, and that they believed they had dodged a bullet. That covers the first three.
    I'm afraid that I'm not understanding your position on this at all. You concede that Buffy is "in denial" and yet you have also stated that you're "not questioning her judgement at all?" How does that work? Surely someone "in denial" is not exercising sound and reasonable judgement? If you're in denial of the situation how can you possibly be dealing with it in an appropriate way? If someone is refusing to even admit that there is a problem then they're not in any position to solve it.

    Furthermore, if you can clearly see that Buffy is "in denial" then don't you think Giles could too? And yet, this doesn't factor into your analysis of him at all. Surely you can concede that at least some of Giles' frustration with Buffy comes from the fact that she is in denial of the situation and is choosing to ignore it?

    The fourth one is a bit overstated but I will say we saw 3 or 4 potentials who were bothered. I don't see their fear as huge because at most we saw concern and it was over by the end of the episode.
    The opinions of The Potentials throughout Season 7 were mostly vocalised by 3 or 4 of them. And whilst I suspect you'll disregard this on account of the fact that Giles said it, later in the episode it's stated that "everyone at your house was quite relieved by the situation" when Spike was asked to go to Robin's house instead. I see little reason to doubt this as it's consistent with the comments earlier in the episode from people angry and on edge about the trigger and what had occurred down in the basement.

    As for how dangerous Spike truly was, I also covered that. What we see with Wood is completely different that what we have seen when Spike was triggered previously. That doesn't mean he isn't dangerous - that means new variables were introduced in that fight against Wood. The other times Spike was triggered he did not turn into an animal and attack. During this fight he also didn't lose time and was completely cognizant of everything that had gone on during the fight.
    The fact that the danger Spike poses is unpredictable and inconsistent just makes it more imperative the trigger was taken seriously and that it made no sense to have Spike unchained. If you can't even anticipate how he'd react whilst triggered then surely all precautions should be taken to ensure everybody's safety? As you said, in "LMPTM" the trigger reduced Spike to a violent animal but in "Sleeper" and "Never Leave Me" it turned him into a Ted Bundy-esque killer who was able to seduce and trick women into being killed or to manipulate Buffy into turning her back on him long enough to break free from his constraints and attack her from behind. All this means is that the trigger is unpredictable and that, whilst triggered, Spike was capable of anything, including luring his victim into a false sense of safety.

    My point is that the danger we saw after the stone was used to bring back memories, and during a murder attempt in a hostile place is not at all characteristic of the danger we have seen all along.
    Which is precisely why pretending the situation pre-stone is the same as post-stone is illogical. The stone has added a new unpredictable danger into the mix. As long as it's effecting Spike's mind, which Giles said it would and it continued to do so throughout the remainder of the episode, there was no assurance that Spike wouldn't be triggered at any given time. Giles did not demand Spike remain chained indefinitely. He wanted him chained until the stone had finished it's process. Buffy unchains him under the incorrect belief that the "stone didn't work" despite it working exactly like it was meant to and as described by Giles. Buffy may be in charge but a wise leader seeks counsel from those in her ranks and by ignoring Giles' knowledge of the stone and how it works, she made a decision based on incorrect assumptions.

    MY final point is that Spike did want to get out of the chains but if Buffy had said no, he would have sulked and accepted it. He's only in the chains because Buffy wanted him to do this. As far as Spike is concerned Buffy is the Slayer, and she is the only one everyone should be paying attention to. My complaint regarding the just a girl thing is that is how Giles sees her. After 6 years of her saving everyone's ass, he has decided she can't be trusted to make this decision because - well, she's just a girl who likes a guy too much.
    There's nobody who likes Buffy more than me. She is my favourite fictional character of ALL TIME and by far my favourite character in the Buffyverse. I ADORE her. I think she's strong, compassionate, wise, funny, charming, a natural leader, brave and selfless. But she's also flawed and imperfect and she makes some really bad choices as a leader in Season 7, which, if you listen to the writer's thoughts on the season, was actually deliberate. We're not meant to justify everything she does and the writing deliberately undermines her in episodes like "LMPTM" or "Dirty Girls" by having her make statements or choices that turn out to be wrong. I think it often does so at the sacrifice of logical or consistent characterisation, which I resent, but it's how it's written nonetheless.

    In Season 7 Buffy shuts herself off as a leader and she chooses to ignore the counsel of those dearest and closest to her. She does so in "Dirty Girls" when everybody - even Spike - warns her against going into Caleb's blatant trap and she stubbornly declares "I'm going in anyway." When patrolling she even remarks that The Bringers appear to "want to be found" as they lure her to the vineyard, which Faith points out "lends credence to the 'it's a trap theory'", and Buffy still persists anyway. That in itself is extremely disconcerting as Buffy's own instincts are telling her that the enemy is trying to manipulate her into going to the vineyard and she ignores this all the same. As a result, she does walk into a trap, people do lose their lives, and people do lose faith in her because of her behaviour leading up to the battle ("With everything that's happened I'm worried about your judgment"). "LMPTM" is no different and it's not an episode that exists in a vacuum. Buffy's behaviour in "LMPTM" is a precursor to her behaviour in "Dirty Girls." Again, the script explicitly has her be wrong about Spike's trigger when she claims "the trigger isn't active anymore" at the beginning of the episode. You even concede she's in denial about that. She's wrong again when she says "the stone didn't work." And just like in "Dirty Girls", Buffy shuts down those around her and refuses to discuss it with them any further.

    Now, you mention Buffy's emotions and Giles' patriarchal and sexist POV about Buffy (and we'll get to Giles in a moment) but it's too simplistic to write this off completely or to characterise any concerns about Buffy's emotion as misogynistic. Buffy's emotions are influencing many of her decisions regarding Spike. Buffy will explicitly admit this in "First Date" during this exchange;

    SPIKE
    I should leave town. Before it's time for me

    BUFFY
    No. You have to stay.

    SPIKE
    You've got another demon-fighter now.


    BUFFY
    That's not why I need you here.
    - *RIGHT THERE*

    SPIKE
    Is that right? Why's that, then?

    BUFFY
    Cos I'm not ready for you to not be here.


    Buffy explicitly denies that she's keeping Spike around for pragmatic, big picture, demon-fighting reasons. She rejects this outright ("that's not why I need you here"). She says she's keeping him around because "she's not ready for [him] to not be here." So, that's the truth. Now, in theory I don't have a problem with that because I don't think it's helpful to the fight to have Spike leave town and I have no problem with Buffy keeping Spike around for emotional reasons as long as she were willing to take the necessary precautions to ensure everybody's safety and work on disarming the trigger. What I do have a problem with is Buffy's refusal to investigate the trigger and Buffy's dishonesty with others when it comes to Spike and his reason for being there.

    In "LMPTM" she flat out rejects Giles' suggestion that she is keeping Spike around for emotional reasons and claims that "all she thinks about is the big picture" yet in "First Date", when in private, she admits it's the complete opposite. What's more, she lectures Wood that "the mission is what matters" when he allows his own emotions to get the better of him, but we know there's a level of hypocrisy in Buffy's words here because she admits to Spike that she's making decisions about him entirely based on her emotion too. I have no problem with Buffy thinking with her heart but I do take issue with her telling Spike one thing and telling her comrades another. Wood's deception may be far greater but that doesn't mean Buffy is free from criticism, either.

    Buffy's emotions are clouding her judgement here. Not because she wants Spike around but because she doesn't want to acknowledge The First's ability to weaponise him. Why else would she be "in denial" about the trigger and the threat it poses? It's obviously a result of her emotions and given her own omission in "First Date" it's not sexist to say that. Giles and especially Wood are also driven by emotion and make disastrous decisions as a result of this so this criticism is hardly levelled solely at Buffy because of her gender.

    And by acknowledging this it does not justify Giles' actions in this episode whatsoever. Whilst I disagree with you that Giles behaves as he does solely because of his paternalistic opinion of Buffy (he's witnessed her denial just as you have and I think the Buffy/Angel/Jenny issues are at play) he absolutely does act paternalistically towards Buffy when he lectures her about what it means to be a general. He undermines her leadership in a completely unacceptable way regardless of how she's behaving or not and as I've previously said, his commentary and abuse of her trust in the cemetery is loathsome. By pointing out that Buffy is making poor decisions as a leader or that Buffy is making misguided decisions based on emotion, it does not in any way justify Giles going behind her back. It's just recognising the nuance in the writing and that both characters are flawed and both characters react to each other's mistakes. I don't even like the writing but I'm willing to give it enough credit that it's not intended to be so black and white. I don't think you're analysis of this episode is willing to go there honestly though, and it flattens the dimension of the story by depicting Giles as a straight up villainous, patriarchal "berk" who unfairly hates Buffy because she's "just a girl" making silly decisions. The truth is more complex than that.

    It's noteworthy that after the fallout of "Empty Places" (which I hate with a fiery passion for a myriad of reasons) and the gang have reconciled, the tone of the relationship between Buffy and Giles is very different. In "Chosen" Buffy approaches the gang about her plan to empower the Potentials and Giles asks Buffy "if she wants his opinion" and she responds "really do" and they share a smile. Now, I don't think this is an adequate resolution to how much they ruin the Buffy/Giles relationship in Season 7 but I do think it's meant to signify that both characters have learnt lessons about how they've behaved throughout the season. Buffy has stopped shutting her friends down and wants Giles' opinion and counsel and Giles has learnt to offer his opinion rather than demand that it be heard and has learnt to respect Buffy's leadership. It was clear to me that the writers believed that both characters had lessons to learn from how they'd acted towards one another this season.

    - Why did Giles have no problem with Spike wandering around the house unchipped and unchained in episodes precious to this? What has chained so radically that now he wants Spike dusted?
    I've covered this several times before. In "LMPTM" Giles specifically tells us that the stone is meant to work by being a catalyst for visions/memories that will ascertain the root cause of the trigger. Giles further states that "the process takes time." Giles is right on both accounts. Even when the stone has been removed, Spike continues to have visions throughout the episode including one more vision in the basement and more visions during his fight with Wood. The very first vision Spike has takes him back to a moment when Anne sings him "Early One Morning" and the memory of this song, as it's his trigger, brainwashed Spike into a violent attack just as it had done in "Sleeper" and "Never Leave Me".

    Now, Giles explicitly states that the process will continue and "take time" and we see Spike have more visions/flashbacks which attests to this. These flashbacks are unpredictable, cannot be controlled, and cannot be anticipated. There's no guarantee whatsoever that Spike won't have another vision that won't trigger Spike into another violent attack (another flashback of Anne singing the song, for instance). Neither Spike or the others have any control over this and cannot foresee what may happen. Giles explicitly states that until the process is complete "Spike is a danger to us all" and wants Spike to remain chained in case he is triggered again. That's the difference between this episode and the episodes prior to this. Prior to this, it was purely up to whether or not The First would trigger Spike but now the stone could trigger Spike into another attack too. It's perfectly reasonable for Giles to want Spike to remain chained until the stone has stopped affecting him. The unpredictability of the stone's effects put everyone around Spike at risk.

    I also disagree that Giles had no issue with Spike wandering the house prior to this episode. If he had no issue with it, he wouldn't have took it upon himself to travel the world and obtain the stone. It was obviously on his mind as was clear from "First Date" and then Giles didn't even appear again until "LMPTM", remember? He was travelling the entire time and wasn't in "Get it Done" or "Storyteller."

    - Why did Giles undercut himself by arranging the session in such a way that success in retrieving Spike's memories and detriggering him was almost impossible. Remember, this isn't about Spike's feelings - it's about Giles competence and/or his agenda?
    I've specifically addressed this exact question at great length already. I've already conceded Giles' emotions got the better of him here and that he wouldn't have factored in creating a safe and comfortable space for Spike because Spike's wellbeing isn't a priority to him. That's a far cry from deliberately wanting to sabotage the stone's success, though. And I've covered several times now how farfetched I consider it to be that Giles would go to great lengths to obtain the stone all the while not wanting it to actually work. If Giles didn't want to cure Spike he'd have just never brought the stone to Sunnydale in the first place. Buffy would have been non the wiser about the stone's existence and Giles could have spent his time arguing for Spike's assassination. Giles didn't do that though, as much as it pains people to admit it.

    I'd still like to flip it around though and ask why you aren't placing the same expectations you have on Giles (and his failure to adequately create a space for Spike to work through his memories) on to Buffy and Spike as well. Do you not feel they have a responsibility to try and disarm the trigger themselves? Forget the stone, why is it ok that they didn't do anything about this for weeks? And why are you far easier on them than you are on Giles? Surely Buffy as leader has a responsibility above everyone to address the trigger issue? And surely Spike has a responsibility to cure himself? Giles did something whilst they did nothing, but you're harder on Giles?

    Why did Giles choose to lecture Buffy on being a general while he was stalling her - and even after he discovered Spike was alive continue to lecture Buffy on how she needed to make the choices he told her to make? What was he hoping to achieve?
    He believed Buffy was acting recklessly and foolishly in regards to the trigger and tried to pass off his betrayal as a lesson he needed to impart. I find it astounding that he'd think that she'd want to talk to him after his betrayal, but it was obvious what his intention was.

    Quote Originally Posted by bespangled View Post
    vampmogs - no answer? I am disappointed. I did answer your questions.
    I'm extremely busy at work and I have also been catching up with friends every night this week. I can't always respond to these posts straight away and especially if my posts are going to be very long.
    Last edited by vampmogs; 21-11-19 at 02:12 PM.
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    Willow from Buffy:
    That's how psychotherapy works. It is called a talking cure. You try to identify the memory that caused a problem and then the patient has to talk about it. Usually, that is enough.
    I think it's inevitable in psychotherapy that the Patient is Ready to talk. That's why a "Come on Spike, talk About your Trauma now" simply wouldn't have worked. i do wonder though if the prokaryote is a device Maybe similar to EMDR. It adressesa the Trauma and starts a proces. Maybe the prokaryote did actually leave Spiek's brain because it had started this process and fulfilled it's Task. it just took some time during which inside Spike's subconscious the Domino tiles kept falling until the traumatic Memory of Anne's sexual assault was laid bare. In that case it could have been just a coincidence that Spike was listening to the song again when he started remebering the final conversation with his mother.

    Willow from Buffy
    :
    People who are traumatised usually doesn't grieve. Grief is a healing process where the mind processes what has happened. Spike didn't grieve his mother or ever try to process what she had said to him after he turned her to a vampire. He just pushed it from his consciousness.

    I am quite disappointed that we don't see Spike grieve his mother after he regained the memory of her death. That could have been a powerful scene. And because he hasn't thought about this moment since it happened, he hasn't grieved yet.
    I am not sure if Spike also repressed how he killed, sired and dusted Anne or if he only repressed her verbal abuse and sexual assault. If so he might as well have grieved her death before.

    What's more important - what was weighing on him was the belief his mother never loved him. He eventually comes to the conclusion that it was only the demon speaking and that his mother loved him dearly (it's quite debatable if he is right about that cocnlusion though). He regained the certainty to have been loved by his mother. Therefore he did not loose anything but won something of huge importance to him which explains imho why he did not grieve.

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    Quote Originally Posted by flow View Post
    Willow from Buffy:

    I think it's inevitable in psychotherapy that the Patient is Ready to talk. That's why a "Come on Spike, talk About your Trauma now" simply wouldn't have worked. i do wonder though if the prokaryote is a device Maybe similar to EMDR. It adressesa the Trauma and starts a proces. Maybe the prokaryote did actually leave Spiek's brain because it had started this process and fulfilled it's Task. it just took some time during which inside Spike's subconscious the Domino tiles kept falling until the traumatic Memory of Anne's sexual assault was laid bare. In that case it could have been just a coincidence that Spike was listening to the song again when he started remebering the final conversation with his mother.

    Willow from Buffy
    :

    I am not sure if Spike also repressed how he killed, sired and dusted Anne or if he only repressed her verbal abuse and sexual assault. If so he might as well have grieved her death before.

    What's more important - what was weighing on him was the belief his mother never loved him. He eventually comes to the conclusion that it was only the demon speaking and that his mother loved him dearly (it's quite debatable if he is right about that cocnlusion though). He regained the certainty to have been loved by his mother. Therefore he did not loose anything but won something of huge importance to him which explains imho why he did not grieve.

    flow
    Spike was a souless demon so he would not have cared.

    After this he is reading a Poem called the Wanton folly of me Mum to a bar full of people so I'm not sure he is repressing.

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    * Buffy in "The Weight of the World" (B 5.21) admits to Willow that she literally fantasized about 'letting' Dawn be killed by Glory because "it would be over" and "[Buffy] imagined what a relief it would be" to not have Dawn as a 'burden'/the stress of Dawn given Glory was after Dawn.

    Buffy's description of how she 'let' Glory take Dawn in "Spiral" (B 5.21) nicely matches how Spike feels about 'letting' Buffy die in "The Gift" (B 5.22).


    Anyway, Buffy since "School Hard" (B 2.03) has not actively tried to kill Spike. Buffy doesn't even actively try to kill Harmony in the TV Buffyverse. Buffy arguably doesn't dust Drusilla in "Lie to Me" (B 2.07).

    Buffy in BtVS S5 loves Dawn more than Buffy arguably ever loved/s Angel. Buffy abandons Dawn for Spike in BtVS S6 and arguably in BtVS S7.

    Buffy in "Grave" (B 6.22) was willing to kill Willow to save the world. Buffy does relatively nothing against Spike for the Judge and for the demon eggs thing.

    Buffy in BtVS S4 puts Spike's interests over Riley's, albeit Riley had wanted to take Hostile 17 back to the Initiative and Spike in "Doomed" (B 4.11) and after is useful in the fight against evil.

    Buffy didn't allow Xander to kill Spike in "Entropy" (B 6.18) and Buffy NEVER apologizes for Buffy/Spike. Buffy essentially begs forgiveness of Xander and Giles in "Revelations" (B 3.07) regarding Buffy/Angel.


    * We've seen BtVS S7 and the lengths Buffy goes to to keep Spike around. She's less close to Giles than she was pre-BtVS S3. What if Giles had shot Angel and dusted Angel in "Amends" (B 3.10)?


    Frankly, Buffy would almost certainly kill Wood if Wood had successfully dusted Spike. And then she'd either go catatonic or force the Scooby Gang to research how to resurrect Spike and then resurrect Spike. If Giles refused to help in that, she'd kill Giles or he'd already be dead because Buffy would kill him after killing Wood.


    * And, yes, if Angel had killed Spike in BtVS S8, Buffy would have dusted Angel. That
    Spoiler:
    Buffy didn't kill Angel after BtVS 8.39 says a lot about how Buffy felt about Giles.
    And Buffy in BtVS S8 loved Angel more than Buffy in BtVS S7 loved Giles.

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    @vampmogs

    You're repeating everything you said before. I've got another disc completely destroyed, and I am looking forward to my sixth disc surgery so my time online is limited to what my back can stand. This is going nowhere. I thought we could actually communicate but it looks like we can't. Agree to disagree. IMO, Giles caused most of the problems in this episode whether or not he did so deliberately.
    Can we agree that the writers made everyone do and say everything with a thought to getting good ratings and being renewed. This includes everything we love as well as everything we hate.

  15. The Following User Says Thank You to bespangled For This Useful Post:

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    All said regarding writers, producers, actors, directors, viewers, readers, etc. are what I remember, my opinions, etc.




    I'm eventually going to get through all the old threads, but I'm going to go through this one first. Not today though.



    * Dawn wad already becoming a Watcher. Andrew Wells could summon demons and also could be a Watcher. Spike for his physical abilities, knowledge base, and connections is vastly more important to the fight against evil than Rupert Giles and Robin Wood combined. Giles already brought the Potentials Slayer. And Robin already gave the Slayer bag.

    There is around zero rational and reasonable reason to put Giles's and Wood's interests ABOVE Spike's.


    * Giles's primary motivation was to get Buffy to break up with Spike and have Spike leave town. But Willow was trying to help Spike. It's likely her spell on the stone was intended to have Spike's Trigger nullified.

    I consider Spike wouldn't have accepted the stone had Giles performed the spell. And Willow's doing the spell likely was needed for Buffy to trust the spell and stone.


    * It's clear that the fight with Wood was NOT needed for the Trigger to be nullified. Spike was slowly going through the memories. Wood's trying to murder Spike likely though accelerated the Trigger's nullification, but probably only by several hours or a few hours or even less.


    * Giles helped Angel after BtVS S2. Giles helped Willow after BtVS S6. Both tried to destroy the world. Giles's being against Buffy/Spike is personal and perhaps because of the
    Spoiler:
    SuperSlayer and SuperVampire Prophecy.
    But Buffy was never told about that; therefore, she considers Giles's being against Buffy/Spike personal and not reasonable and not rational and not helpful in the fight against evil.


    EDIT: Giles was against Buffy's removing Spike's chip and didn't seem to much care--to perhaps even liked the fact--that the chip was killing Spike.

    Giles favored the plan to stall Uncursed Angel so that Willow could perform the Restoration Spell. Giles's plan against Dark Willow was to give her even more magical power so that Willow's would somehow become good again.

    Giles is quick to agree to Wood's plan to murder Spike.
    Last edited by MikeB; 24-11-19 at 09:18 PM.

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    What’s the superslayer supervampure prophecy? I‘ve never heard of it before.

    flow
    ................................ Banner by buffylover

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    All said regarding writers, producers, actors, directors, viewers, readers, etc. are what I remember, my opinions, etc.




    * The SuperVampire and SuperSlayer Prophecy is something from BtVS S8.


    * Buffy in "The Killer in Me" (B 7.13) is very motivated to have the trigger deactivated. Because she wants to 'be with' Spike. That includes having sex with him.


    * Buffy in "First Date" (B 7.14) and after (and likely before) knows Robin Wood wants to be with her. Buffy knows Xander tried to dust Spike in "Entropy" (B 6.18) merely because Spike had sex with Anya. Buffy knows Angel and Riley beat on each other in "The Yoko Factor" (B 4.20) because they were literally fighting over Buffy.


    * Buffy knows Giles doesn't want Buffy/Spike. She knows Giles in "The Gift" (B 5.22) wanted to kill Dawn.


    * Buffy unchains Spike because Spike is possibly in danger of Robin and Giles. Buffy's having Spike with Robin was odd, but maybe Giles convinced Buffy to have Spike go with Robin. And Buffy considered unchained Spike wasn't in real danger of Robin.

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    All caught up.

    All said regarding writers, producers, actors, directors, viewers, readers, etc. are what I remember, my opinions, etc.





    * Willow Rosenberg possibly would kill Wood and Giles if they were still alive after the conspiracy to murder Spike. Buffy would be catatonic or very depressed and Willow would take charge and kill those 2.


    * What if Jenny Calender tried to kill Cursed Angel? Would Buffy be okay with that? Would any of the Scoobies? And Jenny was a ‘good guy’. She wasn’t working for the First Evil.


    * Watch “Get It Done” (B 7.15). Spike felt he NEEDED his coat to ‘become Spike’ again. Even if Robin Wood hadn’t been working for the First Evil and even if Robin Wood tried to genuinely befriend the Scoobies (and Spike after “Showtime” (B 7.11) is essentially Number 2 to Buffy’s Number 1), there’s no good reason for Spike to give his coat to Robin. Buffy kept the coat. Buffy essentially gives Spike the coat when Spike is in the SHS basement. Robin just tried to murder Spike. What good reason is there for Spike to reward Robin for trying to kill him?


    * Spike’s saying possibly mean things to Robin isn’t comparable to Robin’s trying to murder Spike.


    * I feel much worse for Jenny Calender’s family than I do for Robin Wood.

    Robin Wood hired Buffy to be around her and eventually date her.

    He sees there’s ‘something going on’ between Buffy/Spike.

    He learns from the First Evil that Spike killed Nikki Wood.

    Wood then uses the Slayer bag as a ‘way in’ to Buffy’s organization and to get close to Spike. Wood’s arguably a spy for a hostile power and already deserves death.

    Spike’s helping in “Storyteller” (B 7.16) and Wood takes the first opportunity to try to murder him.

    It’s war in BtVS S7. I don’t have sympathy for Wood. Giles himself probably would have killed Wood if Giles knew Wood was working for the First Evil.


    * Giles didn’t want Buffy/Spike, but he wouldn’t have killed Spike to prevent it. Giles doesn’t even threaten Spike in “I Was Made to Love You” (B 5.15).

    Giles’s agreeing to Wood’s plan is treason. Giles deserved death. I consider Giles should consider himself lucky that Buffy had befriended Andrew Wells—someone who had worked for the First Evil but was useful to Buffy.


    * Buffy’s in a relatively bad position in that only Willow, Andrew, and herself seem to fully like Spike and fully support Spike and Buffy/Spike. Giles and especially Wood are openly hostile to Spike and Buffy/Spike. The others have gone upstairs and they are possibly feeling endangered by a still-triggered Spike.

    Buffy cannot look after Spike forever and keeping him chained risked the First Evil getting Spike again and risks Wood and/or Giles trying to murder Spike.

    If anything, Buffy’s mistake is letting Spike go to Wood’s place. Buffy could have stayed around Spike until Willow got back.


    * Spike’s taking Nikki Wood’s coat and keeping it I’m not sure if it’s much different than a solider killing an enemy and then taking the enemy’s supplies and weapons.

    The coat is part of Spike’s ‘armor’. It’s part of his ‘Spike costume’. The moment Robin Wood tries to kill Spike, Robin Wood is the enemy. Spike’s under no obligation not to kill Robin after that. Spike shouldn’t give the coat to Robin unless it’d benefit Spike.


    * Robin Wood wants to date Buffy Anne Summers. And Robin’s trying to kill Spike is partly to mostly because Robin wants to literally rid of the competition.


    * I consider the only reason Spike didn’t kill Robin Wood is because Spike thought Buffy wouldn’t want Spike to kill Robin. That Buffy still possibly wanted to date Robin.


    * Buffy wouldn’t have allowed Robin Wood to dust Spike arguably at any time after “School Hard” (B 2.03).


    * This thread seems focused on the Spike-Robin fight; so, I’m not going to discuss Buffy/Spike outside of it.


    * Should Buffy have been around Riley Finn more and not cared for her dying mother? Should Buffy in BtVS S5 or BtVS S6 simply drop Dawn off with Hank Summers so that Buffy could more ‘live her life’?

    What about the people who quit their jobs to care for and/or be around their dying parents?


    * Buffy herself quit her Slayer duties post-Lothos to “Welcome to the Hellmouth” (B 1.01). And then from “Becoming Part II” (B 2.22) to “Anne” (B 3.01). And in BtVS S6 she largely spends her time with Spike to the point it’s implied in “Lessons” (B 7.01) that many died in Sunnydale because Buffy was with Spike so much instead of slaying.


    * Buffy doesn’t dust Angel after “Angel” (B 1.07). She doesn’t dust Angel after BtVS S2. Buffy in BtVS S3 and after decides that only sex with her can result in Angel’s curse being lifted. Buffy in BtVS S4 sends the Gem of Amarra to Angel by way of Oz very likely knowing Spike will follow and try to get the Gem of Amarra back.

    Buffy’s maybe not being fully reasonable or rational regarding Spike is not unique.

    Buffy in BtVS S4 is willing to go up against the Initiative to save Riley.


    * Buffy’s been the leader since “Welcome to the Hellmouth” (B 1.01). Giles in BtVS S7 essentially tells Buffy to act as if the Scooby Gang and the Potentials Slayer are a formal army with her as THE General.

    A problem with Buffy’s leadership is she’s always been too accommodating and lenient. Willow gave orders and expected them to be followed. She didn’t try to get ‘consensus’.

    Buffy’s leadership style even after “Get It Done” (B 7.15) allowed Giles and Wood to consider they could betray her by killing Spike. And it’s obvious they assumed Buffy would still consider Giles her father figure and that Buffy would consider Wood her new love interest after they ‘got Spike out of the way’.


    * It’s near canon that Joyce Summers and then Buffy Anne Summers reminds Spike of Anne Pratt (his human mother).


    * Unless Buffy was going to stay with Spike until Willow got back and then have Willow do a protection spell on Spike so that Spike’s not in danger from Giles and Wood, there’s no good reason to NOT unchain Spike.


    * What does Jenny Calender have to do with Buffy/Spike? Spike never tried to kill a love interest of Giles’s. Giles doesn’t even have a love interest in BtVS S7.

    And Spike wasn’t cursed with a soul with a perfect happiness clause.


    * Spike’s ‘Spike coat’ is essentially his vision of a ‘power suit’.

    In Angel S5, Spike no longer needs the coat because it’s actually no longer as significant. He’s sparred with Full-Powered Illyria and possibly hurt her.


    * Anne Pratt may not have considered William Pratt’s poetry was good. Anne did want William to find a suitable wife and marry and have children.

    Did Anne actually think that only Anne was ‘good enough’ for William? That William ultimately wanted to have sex with his mother? That seems doubtful. She knew William’s poetry was about William’s muse and that muse was Cecily Underwood, not Anne.


    * Buffy’s being reasonable is allowing Wood and Giles to live simply because she considered both wouldn’t try to kill Spike again. If Spike had died, Buffy’s being reasonable is killing Giles and Wood if only to show the rest of the group that she will not accept betrayals and she will not accept traitors.

    Remember “Family” (B 5.06)? Tara almost got the group killed. But she reserved her spell. Tara’s important to Willow and that’s enough for Buffy and the Scoobies to forgive Tara. Spike was allowing him to be chained. He allowed the stone in his head. He went to Wood’s place. He had gotten his soul.


    * Spike in BtVS S6 became Buffy’s lover, best friend, confidant, adviser, mentor, etc. He essentially filled the roles the entire Scooby Gang and her current love interest used to fill.

    Spike in BtVS S7 after “Showtime” (B 7.11) is all those things again.

    Unlike Angel and unlike Riley, Spike could actually ‘take Buffy away’ from Giles.


    * This thread has been frustrating to read. It seems some posters have forgotten some basics about the Buffyverse. When Buffy isn’t in charge, WILLOW is in charge. Giles cannot be in charge in BtVS S7. There is no real fight between Buffy and Giles regarding who would be in charge.

    The scales are so one-sided toward Buffy that the group decides to put Faith in charge simply because it’s the closest thing to reasonable regarding why Buffy wouldn’t remain in charge.

    And Faith is no mistrusting of her actual hold on power (after losing in a fight to Spike) that she sidelines Buffy’s core group.


    * Who can replace a father figure? A husband.

    Drusilla doesn’t need Angel anymore after Spike kills Xin Rong (the Chinese Slayer) in 1900 A.D. It seems the first time Dru sees Angel after 1900 A.D. is in 1998 A.D. after Spike has already expressed interest in Buffy and Dru is still dying.

    Buffy isn’t a schoolgirl in BtVS S7. Buffy isn’t having a college boyfriend in BtVS S7. Buffy has a real job; she owns her house and her vehicle; she is financially stable. And she’s in love with Spike.

    And Spike’s having a soul means Buffy and Spike can be literal soulmates.


    * There’s a thread for the discussion of the chip removal: http://www.buffyforums.net/forums/sh...n-t-a-big-deal


    * Spike is a “ticking time bomb” to whom? Buffy can beat him. Willow is much more powerful. Spike didn’t even manage to kill Andrew Wells when Buffy was nearby.

    Spike’s real threat is he wanted to be with Buffy forever and the First Evil seemed to want Spike to sire Buffy. But Giles doesn’t know the First Evil part.


    * Buffy was too accommodating of Principal Robin Wood. There was no good reason for Wood to be there in the basement. She doesn’t even tell Wood to leave after Spike expressed displeasure and annoyance that Wood is there. Both Buffy and Spike know that Wood wants to be with Buffy.

    What makes any poster actually consider Spike could successfully get both Wood and Giles to leave so that Spike could talk to Buffy alone? And if Wood and Giles aren’t there, SPIKE DOESN’T NEED TO BE CHAINED. Triggered Spike—from what Buffy and the rest of the non-Giles Scoobies know—isn’t a threat to Buffy.


    * Remember “Never Leave Me” (B 7.09). What good is chaining Spike when the Bringers can simply get him again. And post-“First Date” (B 7.14), there is both the Giles and the Wood problems.





    Priceless

    * “Lies My Parents Told Me” (B 7.17) is considered one of the best episodes in the Buffyverse. It’s only “controversial” because it makes Giles forever unlikable and unpopular. Giles before BtVS S7 was one of the most popular Buffyverse characters. But his regard for Buffy/Spike and especially his participation in the conspiracy to murder Spike made him unpopular.


    * From my experience, even most Buffy/Spike haters disapprove of Giles’s actions in “LMPTM” (B 7.17).


    * I don’t know how Nikki Wood would feel about Robin Wood’s wanting to avenge her death. She might approve. What she wouldn’t approve of his Robin Wood’s working for the First Evil’s aims. She wouldn’t approve Robin’s betraying the current Slayer.


    * Within BtVS S7 Buffy and Co., Robin’s position is arguably below Andrew Wells’s. Buffy wouldn’t allow even her top Potential Slayer Kennedy to try to kill Spike.

    Angel killed Jenny Calender. Angel tortured Giles. Buffy wouldn’t allow Giles or Jenny’s family to kill Angel.

    ___________________________________________

    * Giles helped Angel in “Amends” (B 3.10) and relatively fully supports Buffy/Angel afterward. Giles even somehow seemingly supports Buffy/Angel in
    Spoiler:
    Angel & Faith S9


    Giles didn’t try to kill Angel in BtVS S3. Jenny Calender likely has around nothing to do with why Giles sides with Wood in “LMPTM” (B 7.17).

    ___________________________________________

    * Arguably the Joyce-Buffy relationship was healthy. And Spike/Dru were essentially on a 98-100-year honeymoon.


    * Buffy at times has put certain love ones (Angel, Spike, Willow, Dawn, etc.) ‘above’ “the mission”. Spike however isn’t discussing Buffy with Robin Wood. He’s discussing Nikki Wood with Robin Wood.


    * Spike very clearly physically hurts Robin Wood in “LMPTM” (B 7.17).

    ___________________________________________

    * It’s canon that Drusilla loves Spike more than she loves Angel.


    * Buffy in BtVS S7 knows Spike is triggered and connected to the First Evil. She doesn’t even ask Spike what he knows of the First Evil’s plans. Buffy puts Spike’s interests over everyone else’s combined. Spike is the center of Buffy’s world. Even in Season 8
    Spoiler:
    she knows Spike’s either dust or hasn’t contacted her and he’s more important to her than Angel is.




    Stoney

    * Spike didn’t kill Robin Wood. How is Spike possibly “too callous towards Robin”?


    * Spike left the coat at Buffy’s house because he planned to return to Sunnydale and hers keeping the coat would be a great sign that she still wanted to be with him.

    Buffy sometime during those 3 weeks Spike was in the basement returned the coat to him.

    Spike didn’t wear the coat because being ‘William’ is what he thought Buffy wanted and it who Spike is.


    * “Spike” is a persona. It’s not who is actually is. He’s actually “William” and/or “William the Bloody”.

    The coat is part of Spike’s “costume”.


    * Spike in “Damage” (A 5.11) momentarily feels bad for the all the non-AR damage he caused. Spike would likely kill any member of Kendra Young’s family who tried to kill Drusilla Keeble.

    Spike doesn’t much care at all that Robin Wood is Nikki Wood’s son. What’s important to Spike is that Robin is trying to date Buffy, that Buffy is allowing her quasi quasi quasi relationship with Robin Wood to continue, and that that relationship allowed Robin to think Robin could dust Spike without any retribution from Buffy.

    If anything, Spike probably considers it a mistake that he allowed Robin to interact with him in “Get It Done” (B 7.15) as he did.


    * Buffy tells Spike in “Get It Done” (B 7.15) that she wants “Spike” not “William”. “What I want is the Spike that’s dangerous. The Spike that tried to kill me when we met.” “I’m nowhere near him.”

    The problem for Spike is that Buffy’s in love with “Spike” not “William” and that Spike is actually William.

    Spike’s ‘love arc’ in Angel S6 and in Season 9 is he decides he’d rather to be with Buffy than be with Drusilla or someone like Morgan.


    * I reason the SuperSlayer and SuperVampire Prophecy is the reason Giles is so against Buffy/Spike. It’s the only thing that makes much of any sense.

    Giles was closer to and friendlier with chipped Spike than Giles was with Cursed Angel. Yet Giles supported Buffy/Angel even though Buffy couldn’t ‘get Angel happy’. Compared to BtVS S1-S3, Buffy seems relatively happy in BtVS S7. And Buffy and Spike clearly love each other. And Willow and Xander support Buffy/Spike. So, why else would Giles not support Buffy/Spike?


    * Who was going to care for his mother if William decided to go into Parliament or be more involved in business? William didn’t even seem to like conflict if it could be avoided.



    vampmogs

    * It seems you miss the point that ROBIN WOOD considered Nikki Wood didn’t love him “enough to quit [being the Slayer]”. That’s what Spike is saying to Robin.


    * Spike greatly liked Joyce Summers. It seems she reminded him of his mother Anne Pratt. Joyce is not only a ‘working mother’, she’s a single mom.


    * Anne Pratt did greatly love William Pratt. Spike senses Robin considers Nikki didn’t love Robin more than Nikki loved her job as the Slayer.


    * Spike knows Slayers to the point that he didn’t need to see the Shadow Puppets. Buffy was unique and he tailored his lessons to her in “Fool For Love” (B 5.07).


    * Buffy isn’t Nikki Wood. Nikki didn’t seem to have friends. And Nikki didn’t seem to love Robin as much as possibly Buffy loved Hank Summers. Nikki had Robin with her at night when Nikki was seemingly patrolling.


    * Nikki Wood isn’t Buffy Anne Summers. They aren’t comparable. Buffy herself died 2-3 times before “Chosen” (B 7.22). And she would have died in BtVS S7 if she weren’t important to Spike and if she didn’t have the level of healing powers/regenerative powers she did.


    * Why are you comparing Souled Spike with pre-Cursed Angel?

    Would you be okay with Jenny Calender simply killing Cursed Angel? Would Cursed Angel have been worse than Jenny if he said mean things to her after she tried to murder him?


    * The Slayer Bag much more belonged to all the subsequent Slayers than the coat belonged to Robin. The Slayer Bag had practical value. The coat had only sentimental value to Robin Wood. It had practical value to Spike.


    * Buffy knows how Spike got the coat, she kept the coat, she gave it back to Spike, and she’s perfectly fine with his wearing it.

    Maybe you find Buffy “grotesque”?


    * It’s called cost-benefit analysis. Do you know why the United States has a Space Program and why it has the best Space Program?

    Spike killed Nikki Wood. Robin Wood tried to murder Spike. There’s a difference. Spike and Nikki were ‘enemy combatants’. Robin Wood is a traitor and was working for the First Evil.


    * What is gross is that Robin Wood tried to murder Spike and then after his failed attempt tried to get Buffy to want Spike dust. And then “Empty Places” (B 7.19) happens. Robin and Giles are “gross”.

    Robin is a minor player. With Faith there, Robin’s an almost nonfactor.

    ___________________________________________

    * When is it implied Nikki Wood had a job outside of Slaying? Spike in BtVS S6 seems fine with the idea of Buffy’s having a job. He simply knew hers working fast food would ‘kill her’.

    Spike in BtVS S7 has no complaints about Buffy’s being the school guidance counselor or whatever she is.


    * It seems you don’t know much about the Victorian Era. Anne Pratt had to rely on the beneficence of her son William Pratt. Outside of dowries, almost all money went to the firstborn son. Sometimes if the family was wealthy enough (usually through the money the mother brought to the marriage), money would also go to the second-born son. It is a BIG DEAL that William would have his mother as essentially a dowager after he got married.


    * Spike knew Faith enough. Re-watch “Dirty Girls” (B 7.18) and “Touched” (B 7.20).

    Spike says he knows Slayers. He doesn’t say he knows every personal detail of every Slayer’s life story. He knows how they were created. He knows how they view the mission. Etc.

    He knows Slayers in the way Watchers know various kinds of demons. And he knows the Slayer generally better than Watchers do.


    * If William weren’t as close to his mother as he was, he wouldn’t have been willing to spend the resources he does on her.

    In addition, arguably most of the major relationships (romantic and friendship) in the Buffyverse could be considered “extremely unhealthy and co-dependant”.


    * William had a better relationship with his mother than Liam had with Liam’s family. And William was doing much better in the world than Liam was. William was 25 years old. William simply needed to ‘have issue’. And he had decades to accomplish that.


    * What indicates Nikki was as loving with Robin as Buffy was with Dawn. And Buffy’s being loving with Dawn doesn’t much extend outside of BtVS S5.


    * Maybe re-watch “Checkpoint” (B 5.12), “Conversations With Dead People” (B 7.07), and Get It Done” (B 7.15).

    Spike is correct about Slayers and correct about Buffy. Buffy in “Grave” (B 6.22) was willing to kill Willow.

    If anything, Spike’s simply either underestimating Buffy’s love and devotion to him or he simply doesn’t want his fight with Robin to be about Buffy/Spike vs. Buffy/Robin (given there really is no Buffy/Robin).


    * Wood and Giles deluded themselves into greatly underestimating Buffy’s love and devotion to Spike and greatly overestimating Buffy’s love and devotion to them ESPECIALLY in relation to her love and devotion to Spike. That both Wood and Giles even after seeing Buffy’s reaction to their failed attempt to murder Spike still tried to convince Buffy that Spike should be murdered is very telling.


    * Wood sees Buffy is in some kind of relationship with Spike. Buffy doesn’t go on any dates with Wood after “First Date” (B 7.14). She doesn’t once kiss Wood. Wood knows Spike is an integral part of Buffy’s army. Wood knows the Scoobies are friendly with Spike. Wood knows that ONLY Giles is openly antagonistic toward Spike.

    There is around zero reason for Wood to consider that Spike is ‘still bad’ and ‘still evil’. Or at least any more so than much of the rest of the Scooby Gang.

    ___________________________________________

    * William initially considered Drusilla was either a pickpocket or a prostitute. Cecily Underwood rejected essentially William’s marriage proposal to her the same day his mother greatly approved of a William/Cecily match.

    William wanted to cure his dying mother. What exactly is wrong with that?

    Is William’s siring his mother somehow worse than Angel’s slaughtering Liam’s entire family?


    * William’s longest relationship is with his vampire mother. In BtVS S2 and BtVS S5, he treats Joyce as a mother figure. And in BtVS S5 he treats Dawn as a daughter figure.

    In Spike's eyes, considering he had such an intense and all-consuming relationship with his mother, a mother who has to go out and work and has priorities other than just her child probably doesn't sound that appealing at all.
    It seems you don’t understand that BUFFY is Spike’s mother figure in BtVS S7.


    * https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/sexist William and Spike simply considered himself superior to almost all beings. As a vampire he respected: Drusilla, Angel, Buffy, Willow, Fred, maybe Illyria, and?

    Angel’s the only male Spike had a genuine friendship with and the only male whom Spike actually respects.


    * You miss the point that ROBIN thinks maybe Nikki didn’t truly love Robin. I don’t know why you think Spike should have somehow tried to make Robin feel good about Nikki’s feelings for Robin. They aren’t friends. They aren’t in a therapy session together. Robin just tried to murder Spike and Robin was trying to get with Buffy.


    * Outside of maybe the actual fights with Slayers, what we see in the “Fool For Love” (B 5.07) flashbacks is what Spike tells Buffy.


    * You also seem to miss that Spike in “Fool For Love” (B 5.07) and in “Intervention” (B 5.18) is correct about Buffy. Joyce dies. Because of needing to care for Dawn, Buffy isn’t as close with the Scoobies. When Glory takes Dawn, Buffy goes catatonic. And the idea of Dawn dying results in Buffy’s killing herself.


    * What Spike meant by: “A Slayer with family and friends. That as hell wasn’t in the brochure” is that the Slayer would have family and friends help her in the slaying. Nikki didn’t have that. She had a son that she at least once had tag along with her at night.


    * Maybe read Tales of the Slayers . And then watch “First Date” (B 7.14) again. A Slayer having a child is very rare; so rare that Buffy didn’t even know it was possible.

    ___________________________________________

    * William’s mother was living with him. His mother was dying, and William was trying to care for her.

    William’s relationship with his mother informs why Spike/Dru lasted so long and probably why Spike didn’t kill Buffy in “Fool For Love” (B 5.07).


    * Someone of William’s class and wealth could get married and have children at whatever age they wanted. William wasn’t royalty and he wasn’t even a peer; so, he wasn’t married in his teens or whatever. He’s only 25 years old. William could ‘have issue’ in his 50s and he’d be able to have several kids before he dies.


    * Alexander the Great and Gaius Julius Caesar Augustus both had close relationships with their mothers.


    * William Pratt is particular. He wants the ‘best of his world’. For human William Pratt that was Cecily Underwood. William wasn’t interested in marrying some random somebody.

    ___________________________________________

    * Nikki Wood was slaying in New York City. Nikki wasn’t the guardian of the Hellmouth. I don’t recall Nikki killing any noteworthy demons or vampires. I don’t recall Nikki saving the world. Nikki and Buffy aren’t comparable.


    * Buffy herself wanted to quit slaying when Kendra and then Faith showed up. Buffy simply couldn’t because Kendra wasn’t a suitable Slayer and then Kendra’s killed by Drusilla. And then Faith is irresponsible and then turns evil and then goes to prison.

    Even regarding Season 8, Faith in “Touched” (B 7.20) almost gets her entire group killed. Faith simply isn’t as smart and isn’t as good a Slayer and isn’t as good a leader as Buffy.

    Buffy in BtVS S6 knows Willow, Spike, the Buffybot, Tara, Giles, and Xander were failing as the guardians of the Hellmouth. Yet Buffy in “Grave” (B 6.22) tells Giles she doesn’t know why she’s back and that someone would have taken over.

    In BtVS S7, Buffy is the only being that both Willow and Spike would accept as their leader and is the only being that Willow and Spike would ‘step up’ for.


    * The problem is Spike is the most popular character in the Buffyverse, Buffy/Spike is the most popular ‘ship in the Buffyverse, almost no one wanted Buffy/Wood, and Spike was needed for the Buffyverse to continue.

    The Spike vs. Wood storyline wasn’t at all interesting. Not even Riley Finn tried to kill Spike without Buffy’s permission.

    And “Crush” (B 5.14) showed that Buffy couldn’t even risk trying to kill either Drusilla or Harmony because of how Spike might react to that. And Buffy wasn’t even prepared to be with Spike at that point.

    None of the non-Giles Scoobies are going to side with Robin over Spike. The Scoobies supported Spike over Riley Finn in BtVS S4 and Spike wasn’t Souled then and was only a quasi-Scooby and only was a quasi-Scooby because Spike didn’t want further attachment to the Scoobies.

    Spike, Anya, Willow, Giles, and Andrew all are murderers. And so are Angel and Faith. Why would or should Robin being Nikki Wood’s son give Robin any good excuse to try to kill Spike?

    ___________________________________________

    * Tales of the Slayers and Tales of the Vampires are canon. Fray is canon. BtVS S8 remains canon. Joss Whedon was involved in the
    Spoiler:
    abortion storyline of BtVS S9.


    The Tales books and Fray are considered part of the ‘TV Buffyverse’. Not considering them canon is irrelevant to the actual debate and discussion of the Buffyverse.

    ___________________________________________

    * Buffy wasn’t catatonic after “Becoming Part II” (B 2.22). She cried for minutes and then prepared to leave town.

    Buffy had Spike and Buffy/Spike in BtVS S6.

    Buffy after “Prophecy Girl” (B 1.12) knows she can be brought back to life.

    None of the above is comparable to “The Gift” (B 5.22).

    Buffy in “The Gift” told her Scooby Gang and Spike that she’d kill anyone who tried to kill Dawn. Spike is Buffy’s only suitable love interest and she essentially tells him that she expects him to fight to the death to save Dawn. Buffy herself commits suicide rather than allow Dawn to die.

    Back on topic, Buffy in BtVS S7 loves Spike more than Buffy loves Dawn in “The Gift” (B 5.22).

    Buffy in “Touched” (B 7.20) only gets back in the fight because of Spike’s love for her and his belief in her.


    * Buffy knew Giles would kill Ben. Buffy in BtVS S4 would have killed Initiative people to save Oz. Buffy in BtVS S5 kills Knights of Byzantium to protect Dawn from them.


    * “Lies My Parents Told Me” (B 7.17) exists because Sarah Michelle Gellar had just announced in Entertainment Weekly that she was quitting BtVS. Spike was needed for any continuing of the Buffyverse. It’s largely done for the flashbacks and to show Buffy’s love and devotion to Spike.


    * So, you don’t take Spike’s words for granted, but you take Angel’s? You either don’t understand Spike’s words to Robin Wood or you are doing a Straw Man Argument. Spike’s words to Robin are because that’s what Robin thinks. Robin wanted Nikki to quit slaying. Robin doesn’t like that Nikki put her Slayer duties above Robin. Robin does think Nikki may not have loved him; otherwise, Spike’s words wouldn’t have hurt Robin.

    ___________________________________________

    * See “The Killer in Me” (B 7.13). Buffy is concerned about the trigger. Her regard for Giles’s concern regarding the trigger is because Giles is so hostile to Buffy/Spike.

    Buffy didn’t tell the Scoobies about Angel’s being back in BtVS S3 because of how she considered they’d react.

    Buffy systematically gets the Scoobies to be okay with and supportive of Buffy/Spike in BtVS S7. She’s not going to tolerate Giles’s and Wood’s being against Spike and against Buffy/Spike.


    * “Why does everyone in this house think I’m still in love with Spike?!” (“First Date” (B 7.14))

    You know what else Buffy didn’t do? Bother to try to find a way to rid of Angel’s perfect happiness clause. Or have the Scoobies and Angel find a way for Angel to have a soul without the curse.

    And have you forgotten Angel ? Angel isn’t affected by the curse by merely being affected by ‘happy pills’. Angel in Angel S2 actually either didn’t care if his curse was lifted or he actively tried to lift the curse—by having sex with Darla.

    Then there’s [i] Angel [i] S4. And then there’s both Season 8 and Season 9.


    * Spike was in the basement for 3 weeks. The First Evil was messing with him. Spike is simply mentally stronger than Angel.


    * Buffy does become more Faith-like because of her interactions with Faith. Buffy never became Faith.


    * Re-watch “Empty Places” (B 7.19) and Touched” (B 7.20). Giles is jealous that Buffy doesn’t need him anymore and that Buffy is closer to Spike than she is to Giles.

    And then there’s Season 8.


    * Giles knows Angel couldn’t have sex with Buffy. Buffy/Spike and Buffy/Angel aren’t comparable. And clearly Giles doesn’t consider them comparable given how supportive of Buffy/Angel Giles is and how antagonistic toward Buffy/Spike Giles is.

    ___________________________________________

    * When was Giles Buffy’s advisor in BtVS S7? Arguably, Andrew was more Buffy’s Watcher than Giles was.

    ___________________________________________

    Giles didn't approve of Angel, though [….] Giles not approving of Buffy/Angel romantically and disliking Angel
    Re-watch BVS S1-S3 and “Pangs” (B 4.08).


    * Angel counselled Buffy in BtVS S1-S3 and acted as a somewhat Watcher with the information giving and sparring sessions, etc.

    Angel however didn’t have ‘rank’ within the Scooby Gang. Angel was a never a threat to Giles’s position in Buffy’s life given Xander could boss Angel around.

    Riley was actually more of a threat to Giles’s position in Buffy’s life than Angel was, and Giles felt that. Buffy even has Professor Walsh replacing Giles as “wise mentor figure”.

    Buffy essentially largely abandons the Scoobies in favor of the Initiative.

    ___________________________________________

    * After Dawn’s speech to him in “Beneath You” (B 7.02), Spike didn’t seem to care much about Dawn until late in Season 9.

    It’s near-canon that in BtVS S7 the 3 people Spike most cared about are Spike, Buffy, and Drusilla—in that order.


    * The memory of Spike/Dru didn’t put Spike into a violent rage. The Song does.


    * Spike’s possibly smirking at Giles and Giles actions in “LMPTM” (B 7.17) aren’t comparable.


    * There is no arguing for Spike’s assassination. Spike’s still being triggered means Buffy would have had the Scoobies researching how to de-trigger Spike.

    I wonder why you don’t think it curious that Giles didn’t tell Buffy he was looking for a way to de-trigger Spike.


    * Giles’s bringing the stone and Spike’s trusting Buffy and Willow is what results in Spike’s being de-triggered. Wood’s and Giles’s conspiracy to murder Spike simply almost got Spike murdered. As-you-say, Spike was continuing to remember. He would have been de-triggered without Wood and Giles’s ‘help’.

    ___________________________________________

    * The Scythe could kill Caleb. The First Evil couldn’t know Buffy would have Willow use the Scythe to activate all the Potentials Slayer.

    Buffy gets visions. What if Buffy got a vision of the Scythe and then went with Willow and either Faith or Spike to get the Scythe. As-is, the only reason Buffy gets the Scythe is because Buffy/Spike become stronger. And the First Evil seems to want Buffy/Spike.


    * It largely seems only Giles, Wood, Kennedy, and Rona pre-“Empty Places” (B 7.19) were against Buffy’s leadership and her dealings with Spike.

    ___________________________________________

    * I wonder if you consider Spike’s actions in “Lies My Parents Told Me” (B 7.17) worse than Robin Wood’s working for the First Evil.


    * I also wonder whether you consider Angel should have been dusted after “Eternity” (A 1.17), especially given Angel never researches a way to rid of the perfect happiness clause and never tries to get a soul without being cursed.

    ___________________________________________

    * Giles and Wood are underlings at-best. Spike is Number 2 to Buffy’s Number 1.


    * Buffy’s taking the Potentials Slayer to the vineyard isn’t as “stupid” as the Fang Gang that faced the Beast.


    * What happens after “Dirty Girls” (B 7.18)? Buffy proves more powerful than all the non-Willow Buffy and Co. members combined.


    * Do you actually dismiss or ignore that Angel took the Judge out to play and that the Scooby Gang consider that Angel is responsible for the Acathla thing?

    ___________________________________________

    The opinions of The Potentials throughout Season 7 were mostly vocalised by 3 or 4 of them.
    Wrong. Kennedy from “Bring on the Night” (B 7.10) on clearly wants to be in charge of the group. Rona is somehow against Buffy for some reason.

    It’s very likely purposefully done that we don’t see a Potential like Amanda or Vi express anti-Spike and anti-Buffy/Spike sentiment.


    * Yes, it makes perfect logical sense to not take a conspirator’s words for granted.


    * Not even Dawn said anything anti-Spike or anti-Buffy/Spike after Spike threw his cot at her head. Debating as if Kennedy, Rona, and Giles “speak for the group” is beyond asinine.


    * EVERYONE of the Scoobies knew Buffy loves Spike and that’s mainly why she wants Spike around. It wasn’t a secret.


    * Buffy’s keeping Spike around because she loves him is not comparable to Robin Wood’s trying to murder Spike.


    * It’s not until sometime in BtVS S8 that Buffy-Giles have somewhat reconciled and then after learning Giles betrays her again (and again given the inheritance thing), Buffy never reconciles with Giles.

    I'm extremely busy at work and I have also been catching up with friends every night this week. I can't always respond to these posts straight away and especially if my posts are going to be very long.
    Yeah, posts can take a long time to write. No one should complain about response times.



    Silver1

    * I’m not sure Spike would think Robin Wood ‘had the moral high ground’ in “LMPTM” (B 7.17). What is canon is Wood didn’t have the moral high ground. Robin was working for the First Evil. Spike was helping Buffy and the Scoobies. In “Get It Done” (B 7.15), he even momentarily becomes boss of the Scoobies when he gives orders to Willow, thus further solidifying his status as Number 2 in Buffy and Co.



    Alce

    * Giles has been Buffy’s subordinate since “Welcome to the Hellmouth” (B 1.01). He’s one of the Slayerettes.


    * How was Spike dangerous for Buffy in BtVS S7. Willow and he are the only reason Buffy could be brought back in “Get It Done” (B 7.15).


    * Spike and Ben aren’t comparable. Ben never saved the world.


    * Spike and Anya aren’t comparable given Buffy didn’t try to kill Spike in BtVS S7.

    ___________________________________________

    * If Spike’s “Touched” (B 7.20) speech was “useful to Buffy”, then his presence around Buffy was useful to her before then. It’s implied that Buffy is awake for most of the 10 days that Spike was held captive by the First Evil.

    ___________________________________________

    * How do you explain Giles’s leaving Buffy after “First Date” (B 7.14) and not returning until “Lies My Parents Told Me” (B 7.17). And Giles not telling Buffy he was looking for a way to de-trigger Spike?


    * Buffy in “LMPTM” (B 7.17) was still too accommodating of Giles and Wood. After Spike expressed displeasure at Wood’s being there, Wood should have been forced out of the basement. After Giles’s badgering of Spike, Buffy should have told Giles to STFU and talked to Spike alone. Spike opened up to her in “Never Leave Me” (B 7.09). Buffy could wait for Willow to return and continue Spike’s de-triggering.

    How long was the timeline of “The Dark Age” (B 2.08)? Giles in “LMPTM” wants Spike to talk about very personal stuff to 2 people who don’t want him with Buffy and who at least 1 of those probably wants him dust.

    ___________________________________________

    * The Spike/Giles/Wood “story” in “LMPTM” is all about Buffy. Giles doesn’t want Buffy/Spike. Wood wants to be with Buffy. Spike’s trigger is about his desire for Buffy to become immortal so that he can be with Buffy forever. And that Spike ultimately wants to be with both Buffy and Drusilla. And Spike doesn’t kill Wood because of Buffy.

    ___________________________________________

    * Buffy is the leader, not Giles. Giles committed treason by working with Wood to murder Spike.

    ___________________________________________

    Willow is different from Spike that she would never agree to be near her friends if she thought that she could be danger for them.
    Re-watch BtVS S7.



    Andrew S.

    * Buffy ‘coddled’ Angel and Riley Finn as well. They were ultimately useful to her mission. Buffy went catatonic when Glory took Dawn. Buffy’s no use to anyone if Buffy’s an emotional wreck. She wanted Spike around and needed Spike around.

    Buffy in “New Moon Rising” (B 4.19) was going to storm the Initiative to rescue Oz. Willow was with Tara. Oz was no longer a Scooby.


    * Buffy defended Spike to Riley. Spike in BtVS S5 is soon Buffy’s go-to to protect Joyce and Dawn when Buffy isn’t around.


    * Spike could have likely beaten all the non-Willow and non-Buffy members of BtVS S7 Buffy and Co. even if they all fought him at once.


    * Spike is much more important to Buffy than Robin Wood is and Spike is much more powerful and important in the fight against evil than Robin is. Robin is almost a nonfactor and it wouldn’t be a huge loss to the world if Robin died.


    * Angel isn’t comparable to Spike and Buffy doesn’t consider Angel comparable to Spike. Buffy mocks the idea that Angel can beat her in a fight. It isn’t until sometime in BtVS S7 that Buffy is no longer naturally scared of Spike.


    * Buffy-Giles is resolved in BtVS S8.



    flow

    * Spike wasn’t interested in making Nikki Wood “brassed off”. He simply wanted to kill her in a fight. It seems he could have easily gotten kid Robin Wood and then super-speed away or even killed Robin in front of Nikki.

    Spike in “School Hard” (B 2.03) doesn’t try to kill Joyce. It seems he could have easily continued fighting or even killed Joyce before killing Buffy.

    - Side note: It’s telling that in “The Harsh Light of Day” (B 4.03) and “In the Dark” (B 4.03) that Spike seems more interested in furthering Buffy/Spike and lessening/hurting Buffy/Angel than Spike is actually interested in the Gem of Amarra.


    * Spike killed Xin Rong in the only fight he had with her. He beat Nikki Wood in their first fight and killed her in their second fight. I’m not sure Spike would consider either his equal.

    Spike likes Drusilla and Buffy so much partly because both can ‘beat him down’.

    ___________________________________________

    * Uncursed Angel didn’t think Buffy was “worth a second go”. Uncursed Angel wanted to mentally torture Buffy and then kill her. Around zero indicates Uncursed Angel wanted to sire Buffy. Albeit, Uncursed Angel simply did what Drusilla wanted and Dru wanted Buffy dead.


    * Robin Wood’s trying to kill Spike puts distance between Spike and Buffy to the point that Spike would have had sex with Faith had Buffy not shown up in Spike’s bedroom when Buffy did. Essentially, Robin unintentionally helped Buffy/Spike by firing Buffy.


    * Giles does change. He remained Buffy’s Watcher in BtVS S4 when she simply expressed to him that she wanted him to continue being her Watcher. He stayed in Sunnydale in BtVS S5 because Buffy wanted him to be her Watcher and train her more.

    What changes in BtVS S6 is Buffy wants him to be an actual father figure to Buffy and Dawn. Giles is needed as Buffy’s family and not so much for her Slaying. He leaves town.

    Giles in BtVS S7 comes back when he wants to be the Watcher again. And seemingly he wants to be the leader. But Buffy now has Dawn and Andrew Wells as Watchers. Buffy doesn’t need Giles for guidance, and she doesn’t even seem much interested in him as a father figure anymore. She got through BtVS S6 and she’s doing financially okay in BtVS S7. And Dawn is doing well.

    ___________________________________________

    * It should be assumed that the Summers house was magically protected after “Never Leave Me” (B 7.09).



    bespangled

    * Angel’s killing his family doesn’t mean that was standard and it certainly doesn’t mean that’s what William had to do.

    Drusilla’s confused and hurt that William would sire his mother because it means William already wanted to ‘cheat’ on Dru.


    * William Pratt was relatively happy. William the Bloody aka Spike was relatively happy pre falling in love with Buffy.

    William wanted his mother, Drusilla, and Buffy to love all of him. I don’t see how that’s unhealthy.

    Outside of her love for Angel, Spike loved all of Drusilla. It isn’t until
    Spoiler:
    BtVS S9: Spike : “A Dark Place” that Spike accepts all of Buffy and decides he’d rather be with a non-perfect Buffy than be with anyone else.


    ___________________________________________

    * It is canon that Angel would ultimately choose Buffy over Connor. See: “Awakening” (A 4.10) and BtVS S8 and Angel & Faith S9.

    ___________________________________________

    * Buffy is a bigger hero than Nikki Wood.


    * Spike has the examples of Anne Pratt and Joyce Summers for mothers. Both are very loving and very doting to their children.

    ___________________________________________

    * Activating the Potentials Slayer was considered necessary to defeat the First Evil. And Buffy and Co. considered the action would forever make the world safer. Buffy couldn’t know
    Spoiler:
    Angel would do what he did in Season 8.



    * Buffy uses cost-benefit analysis. And she’s coldly calculating.

    ___________________________________________

    * Buffy’s getting ‘deposed’ in “Empty Places” (B 7.19) isn’t largely Giles’s doing. It’s Kennedy’s, Xander’s, and Dawn’s.

    I reason Buffy wouldn’t have been deposed had Spike been in the room simply because Giles and Wood wouldn’t have dared spoken up and the assembled group would visually realize they’d lose both Buffy and Spike in favor of an unproven leader. Kennedy’s desire to be in charge wouldn’t trump that.

    ___________________________________________

    * William was about to turn his mother into a vampire. She’d immediately become ‘healthy’ and strong. William didn’t want his mother weak and dying.

    ___________________________________________

    * Giles never is ‘in charge’ in BtVS S7.


    * Regarding “First Date” (B 7.14), Giles doesn’t “let” Spike go find Buffy. Spike isn’t going to listen to Giles. Aside from Buffy herself, Spike only listens to Willow.

    ___________________________________________

    * Spike can easily catch crossbow arrows.



    debbicles

    * Giles is the first in BtVS S4 of the Scoobies to want Spike to be a Scooby. And he’s the most supportive of Spike’s relative Scooby status in BtVS S4 and BtVS S5.

    Giles only becomes against Spike in BtVS S5 because Giles learns Spike wants Buffy/Spike.

    Giles is perfectly fine with Spike in BtVS S6. And Spike is gone when Giles returns at the end of BtVS S6.

    Giles only becomes very against Spike and Buffy/Spike in BtVS S7 because of what Buffy’s removing Spike’s chip symbolizes to Giles.


    * Spike after “First Date” (B 7.14) doesn’t see Wood as a rival for Buffy’s heart.


    * Spike in “Fool For Love” (B 5.07) doesn’t tell Buffy the names of the Slayers he killed. He tells her he killed an African American Slayer in New York City in 1977 A.D.

    Robin Wood tells Buffy he grew up in Beverly Hills, California.

    Buffy doesn’t even know how exactly old Robin is, how exactly old the Black Slayer was, etc.

    Buffy probably does suspect the possibility that Spike killed Robin’s mother.

    But Buffy doesn’t seem to think it possible Wood would beat Spike in a fight or that Wood would try to kill Spike in an unfair fight. Buffy has Spike, Wood, and she patrolling together.



    TriBel

    * Spike’s speech to her in “Touched” (B 7.20) is his version of Xander’s speech to her in “The Freshman” (B 4.01) and Riley’s in “As You Were” (B 6.15).

    Buffy’s so affected and moved because Spike tells her he loves her—something he possibly hadn’t said since “Seeing Red” (B 6.19)—and he tells her he loves BUFFY. He essentially tells her the person she is is why she was Chosen to be The Slayer and the person she is is why she’s The One (as protector of the world and for Spike).



    KingofCretins

    * Buffy and Xander aren’t comparable. Xander couldn’t kill Buffy in “When She Was Bad” (B 2.01).



    HardlyThere

    * Spike told Buffy he’d kill Robin Wood if Spike considered Robin Wood was still a possible threat to him.

    Buffy told Robin she’d let Spike kill him.

    Do you actually think Buffy would allow Robin to be a risk to Spike’s life?


    * Killing Andrew Wells to save the world? Buffy and Willow would do that. The only special people in the Buffyverse are Buffy and those Buffy loves. Buffy doesn’t love Andrew; therefore, Andrew is expendable.

    Giles isn’t even a factor in “Normal Again” (B 6.17).


    * Buffy not apologetic about getting results in “Get It Done” (B 7.15). Willow and Spike ‘stepped up’.

    ___________________________________________

    Giles was usually the big decider on things like in OMWF or The Gift.
    It’s arguable whether Giles was the “Big Decider” in “Once More With Feeling” (B 6.07), because actually Spike is the “Big Decider”. Spike’s telling Buffy, “Fine. I hope you burn. You and the Little Bit.” results in Buffy’s deciding to be Sweet’s Bride. Then Spike decides Spike should save Buffy and does.

    And it’s certainly highly unlikely that Willow would simply risk Buffy’s dying.


    It’s canon that Buffy is the “Big Decider” in “The Gift” (B 5.22). Buffy’s almost always the “Big Decider” in BtVS.



    Willow from Buffy

    * Robin Wood was working for the First Evil and both Robin and Giles are traitors. Why would or should there be any ambiguity that they were wrong to try to murder Spike?

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    * “Lies My Parents Told Me” (B 7.17) is considered one of the best episodes in the Buffyverse. It’s only “controversial” because it makes Giles forever unlikable and unpopular. Giles before BtVS S7 was one of the most popular Buffyverse characters. But his regard for Buffy/Spike and especially his participation in the conspiracy to murder Spike made him unpopular.


    * From my experience, even most Buffy/Spike haters disapprove of Giles’s actions in “LMPTM” (B 7.17).


    * I don’t know how Nikki Wood would feel about Robin Wood’s wanting to avenge her death. She might approve. What she wouldn’t approve of his Robin Wood’s working for the First Evil’s aims. She wouldn’t approve Robin’s betraying the current Slayer.


    * Within BtVS S7 Buffy and Co., Robin’s position is arguably below Andrew Wells’s. Buffy wouldn’t allow even her top Potential Slayer Kennedy to try to kill Spike.

    Angel killed Jenny Calender. Angel tortured Giles. Buffy wouldn’t allow Giles or Jenny’s family to kill Angel.

    ___________________________________________

    * Giles helped Angel in “Amends” (B 3.10) and relatively fully supports Buffy/Angel afterward. Giles even somehow seemingly supports Buffy/Angel in
    Spoiler:


    Giles didn’t try to kill Angel in BtVS S3. Jenny Calender likely has around nothing to do with why Giles sides with Wood in “LMPTM” (B 7.17).

    ___________________________________________

    * Arguably the Joyce-Buffy relationship was healthy. And Spike/Dru were essentially on a 98-100-year honeymoon.


    * Buffy at times has put certain love ones (Angel, Spike, Willow, Dawn, etc.) ‘above’ “the mission”. Spike however isn’t discussing Buffy with Robin Wood. He’s discussing Nikki Wood with Robin Wood.


    * Spike very clearly physically hurts Robin Wood in “LMPTM” (B 7.17).

    ___________________________________________

    * It’s canon that Drusilla loves Spike more than she loves Angel.


    * Buffy in BtVS S7 knows Spike is triggered and connected to the First Evil. She doesn’t even ask Spike what he knows of the First Evil’s plans. Buffy puts Spike’s interests over everyone else’s combined. Spike is the center of Buffy’s world. Even in Season 8
    i love this episode, it's one of my favourites. But others find it controversial because Spike murdered Robin's mother, took her coat as a trophy and did not give it back or apologise for killing Nikki, and that's what's controversial. Giles's actions are controversial, but much less so I think. I agree that what Giles did was wrong, and I hope he comes to think the same considering how the story turned out.

    Robin is more valuable than Andrew because Robin can fight and is a better fighter, and that is all Buffy is concerned with by this point in the season. I think Buffy did have feelings for Spike, but he is not the centre of her world, although he is very important to her. If it came to a choice between saving Spike or defeating the First, she'd sacrifice Spike. She rescued him because she could, because she'd defeated the only Turok Han she believed to be in existence. If she had to face 100 of those to get Spike back, I don't think she would, because it would mean sacrificing herself and perhaps some of the potentials.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeB View Post
    Stoney

    * Spike didn’t kill Robin Wood. How is Spike possibly “too callous towards Robin”?
    To make Robin question how much his mum loved him is unnecessarily cruel. I understand where Spike is coming from, why he is so callous when Robin has tried to murder him, but that doesn't make what he does in retaliation suddenly stop being a cruel choice on his part, even if I can understand why he behaved like that.

    * Spike left the coat at Buffy’s house because he planned to return to Sunnydale and hers keeping the coat would be a great sign that she still wanted to be with him.

    Buffy sometime during those 3 weeks Spike was in the basement returned the coat to him.

    Spike didn’t wear the coat because being ‘William’ is what he thought Buffy wanted and it who Spike is.
    It is pure supposition that Spike left the coat because he wanted to use Buffy's actions with it in his absence as a sign as to whether Buffy still wanted to be with him. I think personally that considering the distracted and confused state of mind he is in when he gets to the crypt and speaks to Clem that it is more likely that he fled the house and just forgot the coat in his response to what happened in the bathroom. I agree that there is a good chance that Buffy took it to Spike but Spike's retrieval of the coat in Get it Done, to connect him to who he had been after he had felt separated and didn't relish in the violence anymore I see as strongly suggesting that not wearing the coat was greatly about Spike himself not wanting the reminder and connection until he found that reason for returning to it again.

    * “Spike” is a persona. It’s not who is actually is. He’s actually “William” and/or “William the Bloody”.

    The coat is part of Spike’s “costume”.
    The persona that Spike created for himself is greatly about who he wants to be and who he became when he was sired. There is a lot of costume and creation to it, but that doesn't mean it isn't an outward expression of himself as well. It isn't just an act.

    * Spike in “Damage” (A 5.11) momentarily feels bad for the all the non-AR damage he caused. Spike would likely kill any member of Kendra Young’s family who tried to kill Drusilla Keeble.
    As I've no idea what comment I made which prompted yours it is hard for me to see what the connection is here in what you're saying to me, why you're saying it. Spike clearly is distressed at multiple points through S7 about other aspects of his past and the things that he has done. He doesn't only 'momentarily' feel bad about other things than the AR. But he does tend to try to not dwell on the past and the things that have occurred, possibly to look to not just feel distress about things that he can't affect but focus on what he can do instead. When he considers his past again in Damage he acknowledges this tendency to not dwell on the past.

    I don't think that souled Spike would kill people who tried to kill Dru. I've no idea what this comment is related to either.

    * Buffy tells Spike in “Get It Done” (B 7.15) that she wants “Spike” not “William”. “What I want is the Spike that’s dangerous. The Spike that tried to kill me when we met.” “I’m nowhere near him.”

    The problem for Spike is that Buffy’s in love with “Spike” not “William” and that Spike is actually William.

    Spike’s ‘love arc’ in Angel S6 and in Season 9 is he decides he’d rather to be with Buffy than be with Drusilla or someone like Morgan.
    There is nothing personal about Buffy saying that she wants the Spike that's dangerous, they are talking about the good that he can do in the fight and that's why she needs him to be able to connect to the fighter that he was again. Buffy doesn't reject the 'William' side of Spike at all. Arguably because she considers that she can forgive him and move into a different dynamic with him once he's souled, the more 'William' he has become has made their relationship shift possible.

    I don't understand why you're directing comments to me about Giles' opinion of Buffy and Spike, in the sense of what I've said that has prompted your comments to be to me. The SuperSlayer/Vamp prophecy could be a big part of why Giles is concerned. That there are limitations for a relationship with a vampire could also bother him and perhaps also that the demon's desire for blood and violence are still something that Spike, like Angel, has to battle with too.

    I've no idea what you are talking about in relation to William's care of his mum and why the comment is to me regarding that again. Really it is impossible to follow your responses if what prompted them is not attributed.

    Generally I think that, as tends to be the case, we're just demonstrating again that we see the characters and their relationships incredibly differently and I prefer to just agree to disagree than try to wade back through the thread and decipher why you're saying what you are in response, I assume, to something I've said at some point previously.
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    I do not agree with most of what Mike B. says:

    We have very different views of Spike, of the Buffy-Spike
    relationship, of all that flows from both—

    However, I do concur with him on one point:

    Harsh as they were, Spike's words to Robin at the
    end about Nikki, about her love for him, they were not
    unduly cruel: Spike was speaking truth then, a
    truth Robin needed to hear if he were ever to find
    a way to live with Nikki's death, his loss of her, ever
    to move beyond that last moment with her in the
    park—

    I have avoided this thread because, despite the making of
    some excellent points—yes, vampmogs, why, after
    her initial fervor in Never Leave Me, did Buffy forget
    all about the trigger? (among a few other things...)—the
    conversation became so circular...

    But one matter was never raised:

    Yes, of course, Spike absolutely had to be deactivated—the
    trauma of siring and murdering his mother—events he never
    fully experienced and thus never remembered, given the
    workings of trauma—a trauma that left him vulnerable to
    The First's manipulations—of course it had to be resolved,
    and Giles was the only one who made any effort to do so...

    (I won't go further into the matter of the unchaining, as that
    has been discussed fully... )

    What has remained unthought: that opening scene, the one in
    the park, when Spike is about to bite Nikki and child-Robin
    kicks the trash can, distracting him, saving his mother. Having
    done that, he can barely wait for Spike to leave before,

    Child!Robin: Mamma—!

    Nikki: You did real good, baby-boy! You stayed down, just like I told you—

    Child!Robin (plaintively): Can we go home now?

    Nikki: Nu-uh. It's not safe there anymore. Howabout if I leave you over at
    Crowley's house? And you can play with those spooky doo-dads that you like?

    Child!Robin (more plaintively): No—I want to stay with you...

    Nikki (turning away, in the direction of Spike: I know you do... But remember,
    Robin-honey, what we talked about: always gotta work the mission—

    (Child!Robin looks to the ground with dull resignation)

    Nikki: Look at me. You know I love you—but I got a job to do. The mission
    is what matters. Right—?

    (Robin nods, slowly, forcing a vague smile to his lips.Nikki rewards him with
    a broad smile and clutches his arms.)

    Nikki: That's my boy. Come on.

    (They get up, begin to walk away, but Child!Robin runs back for Nikki's stake.

    Nikki (turning back): Robin—?!

    Cut to an alley in Sunnydale, to adult Robin, who is battling a vampire, turns his
    head as if he hers her calling—
    This is, we may assume, the last night Robin spent with his mother: Nikki dropped
    him off at Crowley's, and soon after that, Spike found her on the subway...

    While I would not term her death, his loss, traumatic in the strictly clinical sense, it
    clearly scarred him, shaped him, continues to shape him, shapes him in a way that
    opens him, as well, to the manipulations of The First:

    After what has been a largely one-way firght in Robin's favor, Spike has a final
    re-memory, one of his discovery of his vampire-mother and his murder of her—after
    it has passed, he begins to fight back. Fight back—and speak:

    Spike: I'm sorry—

    Robin: You think "sorry's" gonna make everything right—?!

    Spike: I wasn't talking to you—

    (More blows between them)

    Spike: I don't give a piss about your mom: she was a Slayer; I was a vampire—

    (Spike hits Robin again)

    Spike: That's the way the game is played—

    Robin (furiously): Game—!?

    (More blows, with Spike beginning to get the better of the fight... )

    Spike: She knew what she was signing up for...

    Robin (more furiously): Well I didn't sign up for it—

    Spike: Well that's the rub, now isn't it: you didn't sign up
    for it, and somehow it's my fault—

    (Through these next lines, Robin attempts to strike Spike, but
    Spike just deflects his blows... )

    Robin: You took my childhood—you took her away. She was all
    I had—she was my world.

    Spike: And you weren't hers—doesn't that piss you off?

    Robin: Shut up.You didn't know her.

    (More blows.)

    Spike: I know Slayers. No matter how many people they've got
    around them, they fight alone. The life of the Chosen One. The
    rest of us be damned. Your mother was no different.

    Robin (in bad shape, groaning): No... She loved me...

    Spike: But not enough to quit, though, was it? For you—to walk away...
    Let me tell you a story...
    Here, Spike is not gloating, comparing his loving mother to Robin's
    deficient one, nor is he being cruel:

    He is revealing something essential about Robin's drive for vengeance and,
    even more, something about his mother—and about Robin himself...

    Robin went, he told Buffy, through "this vengeance-stage," trying to find
    Spike—sought him in the hopes of closing the wound of Nikki's loss, a
    loss that he blamed on Spike...

    And, on the most obvious, causal level, Spike was, of course, the responsible
    party. He did murder Nikki. Murdered her with extreme pleasure.

    But on another level, a level quite evident in Child!Robin's face—his deep
    desire for recognition, which Nikki does not give him; for home and normalcy,
    which she also denies him; for a world with her, which she, as much as Spike,
    takes from him by not quitting, not walking away. By insisting, always, that
    "the Mission is what matters"—meaning that it mattered far more than he did.
    She knew what a Slayer's life-death was, so by adhering to it, by putting the Mission
    before her son, she assured that she would abandon him.

    Robin blames Nikki for abandoning him—"You didn't raise me at all!" he tells
    Nikki!TheFirst angrily—and in blaming her, he blames himself, certain that the
    fault lay with him, that somehow he was simply not enough somethingish, enough
    to displace the Mission and be her world as she was his.

    And in speaking to Robin as he does, Spike actually gives Robin a gift: he
    tells Robin very plainly that the problem lay not with him in the least—Nikki
    was a Slayer, and for Slayers, well, "the rest of us be damned." Nothing Robin
    could have been would have been enough: the Mission would always have
    mattered more—

    And here, in telling Robin about his mother, Spike is not rubbing the contrast
    in his defeated opponent's face: he is making a logical contrast. His mother was
    a normal woman, one without a Mission, one able to love him "with all her heart
    and soul"—until, out of his own love, he turned her into something else, something
    beyond, and the demon he unloosed within her devoured that love. Their mothers
    were not comparable, nor where their loves. On the other had, the violence Spike
    felt toward his vampire-mother, while not exactly comparable to that which Robin
    may feel towards Nikki for her abandonment of him, it in some sense gives Robin
    licence to feel the long-bound hostility he has harbored. This is not to say that Robin
    did not, at the same time, deeply love his mother—Freud writes of how ambivalence
    towards those whom we love moves within us with a fundamentally shaping force.
    It means, rather, that now—or, rather, in some future time, after the apocalypse, when
    he has some room to think—he can also admit to his hate, let go, at least a bit, of his
    feeling of wrongness, of not being enough to be her world, and and thus find a
    different, less pained way of moving through the world...



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    That's a fascinating aspect to consider SoS. I can see how Spike's words could release some of the sense of fault Robin might feel, justify and redirect his anger. Yet I do think there is an aspect of lashing out that is behind Spike's intention with what he says, even if it has a positive result it isn't his reason for speaking and there is a cruelty in the desire to say what he does. The demon talking as it were. His words also denies consideration to the sense of duty that a slayer feels which can be born, as we see in Buffy, out of a deep love. In fighting and putting her life on the line Nikki is also fighting for her son too. So whilst I can see how Spike's perspective could move Robin forward in dealing with his mother's death a denial of her love as 'not enough to quit' is still somewhat problematic for me.

    - - - Updated - - -

    EDIT: There is an appealing contrasting pattern in Spike being able to move forward from the trauma of his own mother's death by looking beyond, even turning from and denying, the potential seed of truth behind the words thrown at him. Focussing on the truth of the loving relationship they had. Against Robin successfully moving on himself by focussing on the pain he felt, getting a sense of legitimacy to that hurt, the sense of not being enough, even though this includes somewhat reducing the sacrifice and love for him which may have driven his mother's choices. (EDIT - again! - the latter has a more damaging effect to the memory of the relationship with the lost loved one potentially of course, at least at first)

    Right, now I really am going to bed. I love it though when new perspectives and suggestions have my mind turning it over again and reexamining the different facets so it is hard to put it down. Such an incredible show and such great food for thought as always SoS, thank you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stoney View Post
    That's a fascinating aspect to consider SoS. I can see how Spike's words could release some of the sense of fault Robin might feel, justify and redirect his anger. Yet I do think there is an aspect of lashing out that is behind Spike's intention with what he says, even if it has a positive result it isn't his reason for speaking and there is a cruelty in the desire to say what he does. The demon talking as it were. His words also denies consideration to the sense of duty that a slayer feels which can be born, as we see in Buffy, out of a deep love. In fighting and putting her life on the line Nikki is also fighting for her son too. So whilst I can see how Spike's perspective could move Robin forward in dealing with his mother's death a denial of her love as 'not enough to quit' is still somewhat problematic for me.

    - - - Updated - - -

    EDIT: There is an appealing contrasting pattern in Spike being able to move forward from the trauma of his own mother's death by looking beyond, even turning from and denying, the potential seed of truth behind the words thrown at him. Focussing on the truth of the loving relationship they had. Against Robin successfully moving on himself by focussing on the pain he felt, getting a sense of legitimacy to that hurt, the sense of not being enough, even though this includes somewhat reducing the sacrifice and love for him which may have driven his mother's choices. (EDIT - again! - the latter has a more damaging effect to the memory of the relationship with the lost loved one potentially of course, at least at first)

    Right, now I really am going to bed. I love it though when new perspectives and suggestions have my mind turning it over again and reexamining the different facets so it is hard to put it down. Such an incredible show and such great food for thought as always SoS, thank you.
    He's not moving on from any trauma as there is none. He talks about it all the time on Angel "I don't know if you but I killed my mum, then she tried to shag me so i had to" Spike mimes staking.
    Its played for pure comedy right there

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    I think we've talked about this before. Spike's repression of the memory and avoidance of it allows for the trigger to be hidden. How he behaves in AtS post BtVS S7 is greatly different for many reasons that I think we can consider against his struggle with his soul still, dealing with returning in an incorporeal state, fearing his worth and where his path will lead him, and still dealing with all that has passed. None of this removes that he was traumatised from the incident in the first place and having to recall once souled that he killed his mum. Having been used by the enemy due to the memory of what happened with his mum being repressed so that the trigger could be attached to it I can reason that his brash, blunt referencing to it is a way of dealing with it having been used against him and in trying to deal with the memory by not shying from it. Just because someone acts in a flippant way doesn't mean they feel flippant about something. The show gives such layers to the characters that we don't just read things only from what is on the surface in the moment. The histories of the characters are always relevant. Even if he is behaving differently and regresses in some ways around Angel it doesn't change all that has passed and its meaning to him, it is just how he is reacting and dealing with things now. But I agree that they play it for comedy in AtS and I've said before that it irritates me when they do it over important plot points from Buffy. But I can find reasons why he'd behave like that which have a logical throughline and so don't destroy what came before or how he moves on from there to what follows either for me. So I've made some peace with it, even if I still don't like it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by StateOfSiege97 View Post

    And, on the most obvious, causal level, Spike was, of course, the responsible
    party. He did murder Nikki. Murdered her with extreme pleasure.

    But on another level, a level quite evident in Child!Robin's face—his deep
    desire for recognition, which Nikki does not give him; for home and normalcy,
    which she also denies him; for a world with her, which she, as much as Spike,
    takes from him by not quitting, not walking away. By insisting, always, that
    "the Mission is what matters"—meaning that it mattered far more than he did.
    She knew what a Slayer's life-death was, so by adhering to it, by putting the Mission
    before her son, she assured that she would abandon him.

    Robin blames Nikki for abandoning him—"You didn't raise me at all!" he tells
    Nikki!TheFirst angrily—and in blaming her, he blames himself, certain that the
    fault lay with him, that somehow he was simply not enough somethingish, enough
    to displace the Mission and be her world as she was his.

    And in speaking to Robin as he does, Spike actually gives Robin a gift: he
    tells Robin very plainly that the problem lay not with him in the least—Nikki
    was a Slayer, and for Slayers, well, "the rest of us be damned." Nothing Robin
    could have been would have been enough: the Mission would always have
    mattered more—
    NIKKI (looks back over her shoulder, then back at Robin) Yeah, I know you do, baby. But remember, Robin, honey what we talked about. Always got to work the mission. (Robin looks down) Look at me. (Robin looks at Nikki) You know I love you, but I got a job to do. The mission is what matters...right? (Robin nods) That's my boy. Come on.

    I've brought this up before though not as eloquently as you have here, and been shot down every time - told that I am showing disrespect for every single mother, and every parent with a dangerous job. That's a deflection. His pain is rooted in her words. Any young child who hears the words "The Mission is what matters" is hearing "You are not what matters." This isn't the same as I'll see you tonight or I'll be back as soon as I can. This is "We have talked about it and the Mission is what matters. Those repeated words may be well intentioned but in his immature understanding they had to be devastating.

    ROBIN (not moving, choking a bit) No, she loved me.

    SPIKE But not enough to quit, though, was it? Not enough to walk away... for you.


    And this is Spike with the weaponized truth bomb. I don't know if he's aware but there is truth there. Canonically Nikki did leave slaying for a period of time, but she was drawn back to it. She actually was torn between slaying and Robin, and she did choose slaying. While we can all list the reasons why she had to go back to slaying, the fact is the mission is what mattered and she didn't love Robin enough to to walk away from it. Sometimes A parent is drawn toward a dangerous job that simply has to be done but there is an actual physical and mental cost to their children that shouldn't be ignored. There is fear - sometimes terror. There are too many nights spent awake listening to sirens, too many things you can't talk to friends about because they can't understand and you want to be normal, and there is an overwhelming feeling of abandonment. It isn't an indictment of working mothers nor is it misogynistic to bring this up in discussion. This is simply a reality

    Quote Originally Posted by BtVS fan View Post
    He's not moving on from any trauma as there is none. He talks about it all the time on Angel "I don't know if you but I killed my mum, then she tried to shag me so i had to" Spike mimes staking.
    Its played for pure comedy right there
    Having come from trauma I can stay that it is in no way uncommon to feel free to talk about what was once buried. Given Spike's absolute lack of boundaries and his need to one-up, I can see him throwing that out, and immediately trying to clear it up with Harmony. I can also see him trying top use it to comfort Wesley.
    Can we agree that the writers made everyone do and say everything with a thought to getting good ratings and being renewed. This includes everything we love as well as everything we hate.

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