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Thread: The Great Season 8 Re-read

  1. #101
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    I can feel the absolute shock Buffy must have felt when Twilight ripped off that mask. She must have thought she'd lost her mind, that this wasn't really happening. Twilight's reasoning for any of just doesn't make sense, he really has lost his mind. But is certainly does fit with Angel's personality, the grand gesture, the need to solve the worlds problems and be the hero.
    And thus my loathing for season 8 reached new heights at this point. Seriously even I don't think that Angel could be THAT stupid, but the moment that he started taking onboard what a talking Dog said I knew the game was up.

    But causing the deaths of all these girls? Harassing Buffy all this time? Dear god, I think both Angel and Whedon had lost the plot at that point.

    Dreadful, dreadful idea.
    Last edited by Silver1; 02-02-18 at 02:23 PM.

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  3. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silver1 View Post
    And thus my loathing for season 8 reached new heights at this point. Seriously even I don't think that Angel could be THAT stupid, but the moment that he started taking onboard what a talking Dog said I knew the game was up.

    But causing the deaths of all these girls? Harassing Buffy all this time? Dear god, I think both Angel and Whedon had lost the plot at that point.

    Dreadful, dreadful idea.
    I have every sympathy with you Silver1, it is incredible that Angel would fall for such a story. I wonder if the battle in LA left him so emotionally scared that he was open to being taken over by Twilight? I have to try and convince myself that there was a believable reason for all this. I can understand why it might have sounded like a good idea, but all that death, all those dead girls, surely would have given Angel some pause.

  4. #103
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    I don't think anyone should have to convince themselves about anything when it comes to season 8. Why should we have to put the work in to make sense out of bad writing?

    The whole 'season' stunk as far as I'm concerned.

  5. #104
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    The reveal of Angel was not in and of itself a problem. It was everything that happened immediately afterward -- from the abject moral bankruptcy of Buffy willingly sleeping with him after what all he'd done and/or the product's literary and thematic bankruptcy of suggesting that she did not have full agency. The book and its creators started trying to have it both ways immediately, and if anything only got the worst of both by doing so.

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  7. #105
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    Twilight - Chapter 3

    I dislike this story and the bangel sex, but it is very well done. I like how the sex is interspersed with Giles explaining why the sex it fated and that Buffy is taking an evolutionary leap, and the scoobies watching how the world is changing. It's just difficult to get over the ridiculousness of shagging a world into existence. It makes me so grateful that in later seasons Joss downsized the story and took us back to earth.

    The drawings are beautiful and it makes me wish we had a spuffy sex scene of such significance in the comics.

    Twilight - The Final Chapter

    Giles is trying to explain that Twilight exerts power over its subjects, trying to excuse Angel. Although it does seem like Angel didn't really understand what they were doing or what it would achieve. He seems so desperate for them to be together and happy.

    Warren really does care for Andrew. I really hate the soldier calling Buffy 'cooze'

    The panels of Angel grasping Buffy's hand, and Buffy's hopeful face, are beautiful. But did Angel really believe Buffy would give up her friends and family to be with him in this new world? And in the end it was totally pointless. This whole seasonal arc meant nothing. I can understand why, reading this issue to issue, I'd just lose heart and give up on the verse completely.

    Spike makes one hell of an entrance and it is so good to see him

    - - - Updated - - -

    Goddesses & Monsters

    It's good to see Willow doing her own thing. It's a nice introduction to Aluwyn, who also appears to be lonely like Buffy. Willow seems to be looking for balance between her power and her knowledge, the opposite of Twilight.

    I'm glad Joss bought Tara back, because Willow needed to show she'd moved forward and wasn't clinging to the memory of Tara and wanted her to be at peace.

    I didn't like that Willow was flirting with Aluwyn. Willow cannot seem to help but sabotage her relationships, one way or another.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Last Gleaming - Part 1

    Is Twilight trying to drive Angel mad, maybe that's how he was so easily persuaded to go along with it. Angel was already depressed about the state of the world, so maybe it was easy for Twilight to brainwash him because he was already looking for something/someone to cling to. We don't see him asking any questions at all, which seems strange from a usually suspicious Angel.

    Buffy declares undying love for Angel, then tells him to leave. She tells him he gave her perfection. She calls him 'baby'. I don't understand why Buffy isn't staking him or asking him to stay. Either would be better than what actually happens. Why does Angel give up on her so quickly? He should stay and fight for her, and for his reputation, but he seems happy to just go away and she seems happy for him to go. It just all feels wrong.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Last Gleaming - Part 2

    Glad to see Buffy had a shower to wash off the smell of Angel before she starts flirting with Spike. Loving all her fantasies, but happy they didn't go there, not so soon after Twilight.

    So we've never heard of the Seed of Wonder before, and it's been in the Hellmouth since the beginning of time. I do like the idea of the end of magic though, I think that's a really interesting way to move the story forward.

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  9. #106
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    I also don't like Willow's 'I thought hey'd never figure that out'. When did Willow become so intuitive?
    I think that dating a literal trickster leveled up Willow's intuition stat dramatically.

    I didn't like that Willow was flirting with Aluwyn.
    I love it! By the way, remember "Nightmares"?




    Character development!

    But did Angel really believe Buffy would give up her friends and family to be with him in this new world?
    That's the craziest thing about this entire story - for all his obsession Angel really doesn't know Buffy. He has no idea who she is.
    Last edited by a thing of evil; 03-02-18 at 09:03 PM.

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  11. #107
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    Lol, yes shy little schoolgirl Willow was long gone But she had a girlfriend back at home, and she doesn't ever spare Kennedy a thought, and Kennedy deserves some loyalty.

    I agree, Angel doesn't know who Buffy is now because he hasn't been in her life for the last five years. He knew her as a teenager and here she is a grown woman. But even then I think he should have known her loyalty would be to her sister and friends. Maybe he thought she'd spent the last five years dreaming of them getting back together. Damn that cookie dough speech!

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    I didn't like twighlight for that very reason a thing of evil. To me it is a one hundred percent given that Buffy would never choose birthing a new universe and walking away from her friends and family and all of humanity.


    I like who I am when Im with him. I like who we are together.

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  14. #109
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    But she had a girlfriend back at home, and she doesn't ever spare Kennedy a thought, and Kennedy deserves some loyalty.
    Willow does what Willow wants to do. She wants to have sex with a sexy snake (who's also immortal, as in can't actually die, like, say, Tara and Kennedy, let's not forget about that) and...that's it, really. I admire it, there's honesty in that. Buffy wants to sleep with Spike but she feels awful about it because it's wrong or whatever. Willow doesn't think like that. She just does what she wants. You want what you want when you want it, and if you don't get it people suffer. And the rules apply to everyone but you, Rack tells Willow in "Wonderland". And that's true, to an extend. Willow even agrees with him, admitting that she was weak and selfish. However, in my opinion, it's that willingness to break the rules that made Willow the fiercest witch around. Because that's what being a witch is about, I think. Breaking the rules, making the impossible possible.

    At the end of the day, Willow's a super-complex character. I like that she cheats on Kennedy because that's just more interesting. To me the biggest problem with Willow and Aluwyn is that season 8, despite being a bloated 1000+ pages long monstrosity, doesn't spend much (any?) page space showing us why Willow actually likes Aluwyn because apparently Riley's one-shot, Faith's garbage one-off issues, Fray's trash and Andrew's bullshit were more important than the relationship of one of the main characters. Thankfully, "Wonderland" rectifies that issue.

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    Last Gleaming - Part 3

    The image of Xander carrying an unconscious Dawn is beautiful.

    So the new world is Twilight, but Twilight is also Angel, and the two Twilights are fighting each other. Is this meant to show Angel's inner turmoil?

    Spikes snark is on point, speaking of Angel 'oh hh'll be around later to take credit for everything, don't you fret'

    You know things aren't going well when you have to join forces with The Master.

    Then Twilight Angel reappears. I thought he'd realised how stupid this all was and wanted to make amends, so has he just fallen back under Twilights spell or is he rational and make the choice to be Twilight?

    Last Gleaming - Part 4

    Twilight attacks Buffy and tries to dust Spike. Willow fights a toothed vagina. Giles breaks Faith's heart by taking the scythe for Buffy.

    Twilight snaps Giles' neck. It's so reminiscent of Jenny's death. It seems like Buffy is going to kill Twilight, but instead she destroys the seed of wonder. The world changes again.

    Willow is devastated, bordering on madness. Buffy is in pieces on the floor next to Giles' body. The scythe is broken. We see a small panel of Twilight wandering slowly away. They won the battle but only by losing everything.

    Last Gleaming - Part 5

    We've left the devastation behind and now we're back to real life and 4 months have passed. It makes me really angry that Buffy is being blamed for all of this. She has to take some responsibility, but to have everyone blame her is just ridiculous. Also ridiculous is Willow losing all her confidence because she's no longer magic and thinking Kennedy won't want her anymore, but all the time thinking of Aluwyn. This is just a mess.

    Thank God Dawn has more sense in her little finger then the whole lot of them. She's there to love and comfort Buffy, and it's lovely to see after all they've been through. Buffy crying at the reading of Giles' will is so moving and looks so much like SMG when she cried.

    the Spuffy on the fire escape is just the sweetest. Along with the back steps at Revello, the fire escape becomes another Spuffy place. They do like steps and stairs, which I guess is a metaphor for their relationship never being equal, one is always up and other always down.

    Dawn pretending to have sex with Xander to force Buffy out of their apartment is hilarious. I loved seeing Buffy beat those slayers down and then getting back to just slaying vampires.

    Commitment Through Distance, Virtue Through Sin

    I'm not a big fan of Riley and Sam, but I did enjoy this. It was very slight, but I liked the insight both into the Finns marriage and into Twilight and Whistler, because it's only now at the very end of the season that we see it's been Whistler all along, planting these ideas into Angels mind. We don't know if he's telling the truth or even working for TPB, but it's a nice set up for the next season and gives us more information about this one.

    Final Thoughts

    Negatives: I still dislike the idea of Twilight and how it was dealt with, though I think it does work with Angel's character. Waiting so long for Spike to appear was a mistake even though there are references to him throughout. Dawn being under a spell for so long was just silly and felt like the writers didn't know what to do with her. I hated Buffy being so desperate that she slept with Satsu, tried to seduce Xander even though he was in love with her sister and finally slept with Twilight. Every single one of those was a bad decision and it pained me to see Buffy so lost. They should have kept Ethan Rayne alive, he's too good a character to lose. Hated Tibet, the submarine, the goddesses, the hugeness of it all, Buffy is a contained verse, all that was too much. Andrew should never be allowed to lead anybody, that's just asking for trouble.

    The best of S8 was seeing Buffy leading an army. Loved her relationship with Xander, they were truly best friends this season. Faith and Giles were a great partnership, and I liked that he left everything to her in his will. I love Dawn and Xander as a couple, they work well. I loved Spike's return (though I wish it were sooner) I enjoyed Satsu, Renee and the other slayers we got to know as characters even if we never learnt their names. I enjoy Harmony doing anything. Loved the Japanese setting, loved Dracula and loved Xander and Dracula together. It was great to see Oz and know he was happy and had a family.

    My favourite arcs were No Future for You and The Long Way Home and my least favourite was Retreat; they fought so hard for their powers and gave them us so easily, but then in the next issue they wanted them back again, it was all done far too quickly. Even Twilight made more sense than Retreat.

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  17. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Priceless View Post
    Last Gleaming - Part 3 You know things aren't going well when you have to join forces with The Master.
    The first BB, Buffy killed him, she destroyed his bones... what a waste to use The Master as the Seed's Protector!

    Twilight snaps Giles' neck. It's so reminiscent of Jenny's death.
    That's interesting because Angel, at this point, was possessed by Twilight...

    It makes me really angry that Buffy is being blamed for all of this. She has to take some responsibility, but to have everyone blame her is just ridiculous.
    After Buffy being drugged by the Glow... it infuriates me, too.

    The best of S8 was seeing Buffy leading an army. Loved her relationship with Xander, they were truly best friends this season. Faith and Giles were a great partnership, and I liked that he left everything to her in his will.
    I wasn't OK with that part; Giles showed again how he can be spiteful; Faith deserved her part, but also Buffy should have gotten something (we could see how hurt she got) - she was broke, she even didn't have a house to live anymore. Wasn't Giles her "father figure"? And what did he leave to her? The Vampyr book; it was like saying "you were my Slayer, and nothing more".

    I loved Spike's return (though I wish it were sooner)

    my least favourite was Retreat; they fought so hard for their powers and gave them us so easily, but then in the next issue they wanted them back again, it was all done far too quickly. Even Twilight made more sense than Retreat.
    Totally agree with you on this; they had done big magic by transporting the submarine, and then decided to give up their magic to avoid being found. And then, they were found! And immediately wanted their powers back... And if they weren't found, what would happen? They would live "hidden" for the rest of their lives? Living (the infamous) "normal"?

    And talking about Spike "arriving sooner". Some people like to accuse him of wanting to have a "big entrance", so he didn't look for Buffy immediately after figuring out that Twilight was Angel on purpose. Remember, Angel used Amy's magic and a sophisticated equipment (the one whose technician noticed "spikes" of magic – a guy Angel ordered to be killed, by the way) to locate Buffy's castle in Scotland, and later the Slayer Army in Tibet (the location in Tibet took some time for Angel's minions to pinpoint). So, how could Spike have located Buffy and Co.? Despite having a bugship, he didn't have the resource for it. So only after Twilight happened, it became easy to find Buffy, following the source of the chaos.

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  19. #112
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    When I think of "Last Gleaming", I don't relitigate the story design of Twilight, etc, gotta take the story on its own terms. Therein, the thing that must bitterly disappointed me was that they had this sidetrack running with Xander through the penultimate issues, and the general challenging him on having to make a choice and the danger to those he loved most (the recently concussed Dawn) and the mortal world. It all played very, very much as though he was going to be critical to the climax here. Which made sense given his greater prominence in the season and a lot of the long-running themes of the character, the mortal observer of great power, a sort of bridge between the mundane and supernatural world by his proximity to both. I felt 100% sure he would be, and he should have been, the one to break ranks and break the Seed. Or, for that matter, to be murdered in the attempt and for Buffy to fulfill his decision as she did Giles. But instead he just goes down there and... stands aside and watches Giles and/or Buffy sorta steal his moment. Just really took something out of the arc for me that that build-up fizzled and went nowhere. Failing that, I would have absolutely written him to just kill Angel himself and let the fall out from that decision pick a scab at every old argument and propel us into Season 9.

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  21. #113
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    I don't want to sound like Mike or anything but I'm still not entirely OK with Angel surviving season 8. You're the big bad, (or his Caleb or...whatever) you die. And not only doesn't Buffy kill Angel, she actually ends up protecting him, like, minutes after Giles' death. It's depressing.

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  23. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by a thing of evil View Post
    I don't want to sound like Mike or anything but I'm still not entirely OK with Angel surviving season 8. You're the big bad, (or his Caleb or...whatever) you die. And not only doesn't Buffy kill Angel, she actually ends up protecting him, like, minutes after Giles' death. It's depressing.
    Yeah, I don't usually agree with him, but his only fault here is continually relitigating it every time Angel comes up. But he should have died. I got on record early that there was no plausible, believable coming back from Twilight, and that was all while still thinking through some kind of Hermione-level trickeration that it might be Xander. Since Buffy was too devastated just then, and Xander had literally no narrative purpose in being down there at that point despite early indications, he should have killed him then.

    My thought is that perhaps on hindsight that Xander should have done something drastic (break the Seed, or failing that killing Angel) that they tried to buy it back with a kinda less plausible "betrayal" angle the following season. The most evocative betrayal would have been to take that general's cue and betray Willow and Buffy by breaking the Seed to end the threat, choosing against the magical world. Failing that, the more personal betrayal of Buffy of killing Angel in anger and ripping open a lot of wounds from televised seasons. But these are the kind of ideas that can only really occur to you if you view all three of those characters as having equal significance.

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  25. #115
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    I'm struggling to continue seeing Angel as a champion after twighlight. In fairness it's probably because I only read Buffy not Angel. I don't think the Buffy title ever really explained why Angel did it and why we should forgive him. I understand why Willow went all dark Willow in S6 and I forgive her but I don't feel the same about twighlight


    I like who I am when Im with him. I like who we are together.

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  27. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by a thing of evil View Post
    I don't want to sound like Mike or anything but I'm still not entirely OK with Angel surviving season 8. You're the big bad, (or his Caleb or...whatever) you die.
    Quote Originally Posted by KingofCretins View Post
    But he should have died. I got on record early that there was no plausible, believable coming back from Twilight, and that was all while still thinking through some kind of Hermione-level trickeration that it might be Xander.
    Quote Originally Posted by GoSpuffy View Post
    I'm struggling to continue seeing Angel as a champion after twighlight. In fairness it's probably because I only read Buffy not Angel. I don't think the Buffy title ever really explained why Angel did it and why we should forgive him. I understand why Willow went all dark Willow in S6 and I forgive her but I don't feel the same about twighlight
    After rereading S8 last year and that time focusing on Twilight's crimes Angel has really lost a lot of his Champion status to me, too; and it's not like he was OCC, no, his behavior fit the character very well. I love Angel & Faith S9 and Christos Gage, but the whitewashing of Angel... (which had its peak on BtVS S10), is something unpleasant to swallow nowadays.

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    That's interesting because Angel, at this point, was possessed by Twilight...
    I'm not sure if Twilight ever possessed Angel. I am sure Angel was still in there, perhaps even the biggest part of the thing that killed Giles. The problem is that Twilight is many things; an idea, a universe, a mystical creature . . . I don't think even Joss knew what Twilight was.

    I wasn't OK with that part; Giles showed again how he can be spiteful; Faith deserved her part, but also Buffy should have gotten something (we could see how hurt she got) - she was broke, she even didn't have a house to live anymore. Wasn't Giles her "father figure"? And what did he leave to her? The Vampyr book; it was like saying "you were my Slayer, and nothing more".
    I see what you mean but I want to believe that Giles knew Faith needed the money more. Buffy may be struggling at the moment, but Giles didn't know he was going to die so he probably made the new will believing Buffy would have a good job and a life by the time he died.

    Totally agree with you on this; they had done big magic by transporting the submarine, and then decided to give up their magic to avoid being found. And then, they were found! And immediately wanted their powers back... And if they weren't found, what would happen? They would live "hidden" for the rest of their lives? Living (the infamous) "normal"?
    Yeah, what was the long term plan? I can't imagine all those girls would be happy to stay in Tibet forever, but once they went out into the world there's every chance they wouldn't be able to keep up with the meditation and physical labour that was somehow keeping their powers at bay. I am glad they go their powers back, but the way it was done was so quick it just seemed silly.

    Do people think Spike was waiting to make a big entrance? Spike loves Buffy, he wouldn't just hang back when she was in so much danger. He can't help himself from helping her, even when he really doesn't want to, so to suggest he was waiting deliberately is just silly. It wouldn't make him look more heroic, it would make him look like a self-serving jerk

    - - - Updated - - -

    Totally agree with you on this; they had done big magic by transporting the submarine, and then decided to give up their magic to avoid being found. And then, they were found! And immediately wanted their powers back... And if they weren't found, what would happen? They would live "hidden" for the rest of their lives? Living (the infamous) "normal"?
    I haven't read S9 in a while, but isn't Xander shown beating Angel to within an inch of his life when they were in the Hellmouth? From what I remember, and I'm sure someone will tell me if I'm remembering wrongly, Xander just snaps and goes mad, and this is the beginning of his anger issues being explored, and finally drives him to see a psychiatrist. If I am remembering it correctly, I don't know why that wasn't shown in S8, but maybe Joss always planned to show it in S9 or perhaps he just thought of it when he was thinking about S9

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    Quote Originally Posted by a thing of evil View Post
    I don't want to sound like Mike or anything but I'm still not entirely OK with Angel surviving season 8. You're the big bad, (or his Caleb or...whatever) you die. And not only doesn't Buffy kill Angel, she actually ends up protecting him, like, minutes after Giles' death. It's depressing.
    I couldn't believe Buffy let him go after finding out what Twilight's plan was. Twilight caused the death of so many slayers, and Buffy seems to let him off scott free. Where was her anger and disgust at what he'd tried to do? None of it rang true. But saying that, I can understand why she didn't dust Angel. She loves him. She's killed him once and that destroyed her. It's just her lack of anger towards him all the way through that seemed odd

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  31. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Priceless View Post
    I see what you mean but I want to believe that Giles knew Faith needed the money more. Buffy may be struggling at the moment, but Giles didn't know he was going to die so he probably made the new will believing Buffy would have a good job and a life by the time he died.
    I could agree with you if Giles wasn't so wealthy (and how that happened, by the way?); a condo in London, a freaking farm (we saw it in S6, didn't we? Tony Head's real home), with freaking horses, and money: plenty to split between Faith and Buffy. People with properties and risk lives do wills, and what, he started bonding with Faith not long before his death, one year?

    And Buffy having a good job? No way. And it's not just about the money (because let's not pretend that money isn't important), but also about a person having some consideration for another, and in the case of Giles/Buffy... her tears showed how much she was hurt by being left aside.

    And I wonder, why was it written like that? Giles leaving all his assets to Faith, Willow saying "the Slayer who needed her the most was Faith" (which bothered Buffy a little, if I remember well)? At the expense of Buffy's pain?


    Yeah, what was the long term plan? I can't imagine all those girls would be happy to stay in Tibet forever, but once they went out into the world there's every chance they wouldn't be able to keep up with the meditation and physical labour that was somehow keeping their powers at bay. I am glad they go their powers back, but the way it was done was so quick it just seemed silly.
    Yeah - the quickness of it that made the whole thing absurdly silly. If the plan had hidden them for months, giving time to work out how to defeat Twilight and included they taking back their powers after for the big battle...

    Do people think Spike was waiting to make a big entrance?
    Well, a hater or two, you know...

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    I could agree with you if Giles wasn't so wealthy (and how that happened, by the way?); a condo in London, a freaking farm (we saw it in S6, didn't we? Tony Head's real home), with freaking horses, and money: plenty to split between Faith and Buffy. People with properties and risk lives do wills, and what, he started bonding with Faith not long before his death, one year?

    And Buffy having a good job? No way. And it's not just about the money (because let's not pretend that money isn't important), but also about a person having some consideration for another, and in the case of Giles/Buffy... her tears showed how much she was hurt by being left aside.

    And I wonder, why was it written like that? Giles leaving all his assets to Faith, Willow saying "the Slayer who needed her the most was Faith" (which bothered Buffy a little, if I remember well)? At the expense of Buffy's pain?
    I think it does come down to Giles thinking Faith needed the money and houses far more than Buffy. It probably felt to Giles that Faith had nothing and no-one, she was alone in the world with no-one to rely on. Buffy had friends and family, and was smarter than Faith. Willow also felt the same way, that Faith needed her and Buffy would be okay without her. Everyone saw Buffy as strong and resilient, the one who could survive no matter what.

    Giles left Buffy the most important thing he had, the Vampyr book. He knew it's importance and he wanted Buffy to have it. Giles probably hoped Buffy would understand that he was giving her the most important thing he had and the money and houses meant nothing compared to that book.

    I wonder if Giles altered his will during S7 when he and Buffy were not getting along. Faith was in the house, so maybe that gave him the idea to leave everything to her. Perhaps there was some pettiness in his decision, but I don't think it was meant to be malicious

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