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Thread: Memory Wipes

  1. #21
    Slayer MikeB's Avatar
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    * Buffy considers Dawn her 'real' sister and in "The Gift" (B 5.22) threatened the lives of the entire Scooby Gang and Spike if any tried to kill Dawn.

    Buffy told Giles that if Dawn died that Buffy would quit being an active Slayer. Buffy went catatonic when Glory took Dawn.

    Buffy decided to die rather than allow Dawn to die even though Dawn was offering to die.

    Season 9 has
    Spoiler:
    Buffy accepting magic apocalypses by letting Willow create a new Seed so that Dawn could be cured.


    - Joyce's brain tumor is very likely the result of the monks making/forming Dawn.

    - Dawn becomes an important part of the Scooby Gang by BtVS S7.

    - Xander
    Spoiler:
    dates Dawn in BtVS S8 and BtVS S9.



    * Tara obviously was correct to not be okay with Willow's mindwiping her.


    * Willow seemed to want to mindwipe Buffy for Willow's own benefit instead of Buffy's and wanted to do it without Buffy's consent.


    * Connor was suicidal and only existed to birth Jasmine. It wasn't a bad thing to change his memories.


    * "I Will Remember You" (A 1.08) I consider was a test by the Powers That Be for Angel. While it wasn't good for the Buffy/Angel relationship, Angel's decision was good for his 'champion' role.



    flow

    [Buffy] acts on very strict moral grounds and to her the life of one human is not less important, than the life of one hundred humans.
    Buffy uses cost-benefit analysis. The two (now one) loves of her life are vampires who've killed many people and who've caused a lot of death and destruction. Buffy's proven that Willow's life is more important to her than the general populace of Sunnydale. Buffy's proven that Dawn's life is more important to her than the rest of the world. Buffy's proven Spike's life is more important to her than everyone else's combined. Buffy even let Angel live post-BtVS 8.39.

    The answer is clearly, that a memory wipe is never a good thing
    Unless you consider Angel should have been dusted in AtS s1, the 'Buffy memory wipe' was a good thing. Angel's actions ultimately resulted in Wolfram & Hart being much less powerful and influential than it otherwise would be.


    * In addition, Illyria is more useful in the fight against evil than Fred would be.



    Clavus

    * Wesley didn't much change because of the memory wipe. Maybe Wesley/Fred wouldn't have happened had the memory wipe not been done.



    Priceless

    * Angel wanted no one else to have any pre-Connor mindwipe memories of Connor. Cordelia likely only knew of Connor because the mindwipe didn't affect her.

    ____________________________________

    * Buffy's fully in love with Spike. Hers finding out about "I Will Remember You" (A 1.08) would only lessen her regard for Angel.

    ____________________________________

    * Buffy didn't want Willow and Co. to feel bad for Buffy and towards themselves and didn't want them considering resurrecting Buffy was maybe a bad thing.

    Buffy's been confiding in Spike since BtVS S5 (or perhaps since "Becoming Part II" (B 2.22)). Spike wasn't part of the resurrection spell. Buffy knows Spike would prefer Buffy be alive than Buffy be in Heaven.



    Stoney

    * I consider the "I Will Remember You" (A 1.08) thing was a test from the Powers That Be and nothing happened to the real Buffy-it was all in Angel's head. Angel told Doyle (and Cordelia through Doyle) about it because both were concerned Angel would end 'the mission' and Angel Investigations if Angel could be with Buffy.

    Before finding out about Buffy/Parker and then Buffy/Riley, Angel seemed to be under the delusion that Buffy would never be with anyone else after Angel; nevertheless, Angel didn't consider there was a real threat to Buffy/Angel 'endgame' until finding out about Buffy/Spike.

    ____________________________________

    * Buffy's reaction to Angel's decision to reverse the day is the reason I consider the whole thing was a test from the PTB. Buffy always wanted Angel to be human. The only reason-in her understanding-that Angel broke up with her is because they couldn't physically be together. Buffy would never have been okay with Angel's reversing the day.

    As-is, Buffy was already dating Riley before "I Will Remember You" (A 1.08). "Sanctuary" (A 1.19) has Angel lashing out at her for "moving on when he can't".

    Even "Forever" (B 5.17) is interesting because it's implied that Buffy knows Spike went after the Gem of Amarra and Angel destroyed the Gem because of that and that's why Angel had to wait until nighttime to see Buffy. Did Buffy actually want Angel to stay with her? Would the "IWRY" thing help Buffy/Angel? Probably not.

    ____________________________________

    * You like Angel after BtVS S8?



    vampmogs

    * Giles's breaking the pendant was-from his perspective-the only way to end the Wishverse. The demon in "I Will Remember You" (A 1.08) already was killed. Angel didn't 'reverse time' to save the day. He did it because he couldn't stand being a weak mortal. Angel did that knowing that Buffy since finding out Angel was a vampire wanted Angel to be human.


    * What if Spike had "taken back the day or hour or minutes" of the attempted rape? Would that mean that he never attempted to rape Buffy? Would that mean that the AR would/could/should have no effect on the Buffy/Spike relationship? Angel-from his perspective-robbed Buffy of the Buffy/Angel stuff in "I Will Remember You" (A 1.08).

    The wrongness of Angel's decision is compounded by how Angel reacts to Buffy/Riley and Buffy/Spike. Angel could have been with Buffy. He chose not to yet lashes out at Buffy as if Buffy's cheating on Angel.

    ____________________________________

    * Angel would never want to end his memories of "I Will Remember You" (A 1.08) Buffy/Angel. The only "painful" thing for Angel regarding post-"I Will Remember You" is that Buffy/Riley and Buffy/Spike happened.

    I see nothing wrong with [Angel] confiding in Doyle. It wasn't going to hurt Buffy in any way and Doyle was his confidant the same way Willow was for Buffy after she returned from LA and discussed her issues in Something Blue.
    The opening scene of "Something Blue" (B 4.09) with Buffy and Willow was more about Buffy/Spike than about Buffy/Angel. Anyway, Buffy would be emotionally hurt if she ever found out that Angel confided in Doyle regarding the "IWRY" Buffy/Angel stuff.


    * Angel reversed the day for himself, not for Buffy.


    * Angel didn't save Buffy from Caleb. Not only wouldn't Buffy have died, but Spike would have helped Buffy if Angel wasn't there. The 'time guy' could have been easily killed. The Powers That Be would have had Lorne simply get someone to kill the guy. Lorne could simply hire someone to kill the guy. Or otherwise stop him.


    * Angel didn't actually want Buffy to ever "move on" and ever "be with" anyone else. Angel's breakups with Buffy were for his benefit, not hers.


    * Spike's attempted rape of Buffy was poor writing and completely out of character. Yet, it happened and is canon. That Angel didn't help Buffy against Adam, Glory, the Trio, the Turok-han, etc. is canon and it makes sense because of the Jasmine stuff and because Angel's breakups with Buffy were selfish and not done for Buffy's benefit.



    TriBel

    * From what I remember, and in my opinion, Joss Whedon has been barley involved in post-Season 9 (and even post-abortion storyline in BtVS S9). So much of Season 10 is opposed to previously established canon that it cannot be canon. Obviously, Season 11 cannot be canon. The only noteworthy thing regarding Season 10 is
    Spoiler:
    Buffy/Spike is 'endgame'.

  2. #22
    Slayer Priceless's Avatar
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    * Angel wanted no one else to have any pre-Connor mindwipe memories of Connor. Cordelia likely only knew of Connor because the mindwipe didn't affect her.
    I agree Angel didn't want anyne to remember Connor, but the question is was that his decision or a price requested by W&H, because it would make it easier to persuade the crew to join them. Either way, Angel's decision or W&H's, he went along with it, which does not reflect well on him, but does fit with his personality and his history. He'd previously allowed people's memories to be changed, so he obviously saw not moral reason not to do it again.

    * Buffy's fully in love with Spike. Hers finding out about "I Will Remember You" (A 1.08) would only lessen her regard for Angel.
    Very possibly, though she is a compassionate and forgivng person. She's already forgiven Angel for so much, I can't see this being the thing that completely ends her feelings for him. It reminds me of the 'kick his ass' remark by Xander, which was only revealed to be a lie soooo long after the event that it simply did not matter anymore. Buffy is in a good place with Spike, so if I Will Remember You mind wipe was revealed, it might mean absolutely nothing to Bufffy now.

  3. #23
    Scooby Gang betta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Priceless View Post
    Very possibly, though she is a compassionate and forgivng person. She's already forgiven Angel for so much, I can't see this being the thing that completely ends her feelings for him. It reminds me of the 'kick his ass' remark by Xander, which was only revealed to be a lie soooo long after the event that it simply did not matter anymore. Buffy is in a good place with Spike, so if I Will Remember You mind wipe was revealed, it might mean absolutely nothing to Bufffy now.
    For starters, I believe Buffy has no feelings for Angel anymore, so on an emotional level the revelation would mean nothing. But I wonder if it could add something new for her to consider about Angel's response to "I want my life to be with you": "I don't".

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  5. #24
    What? KingofCretins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeB View Post
    Joyce's brain tumor is very likely the result of the monks making/forming Dawn.
    Common speculation, but ultimately popular fanon and nothing more.

    * Willow seemed to want to mindwipe Buffy for Willow's own benefit instead of Buffy's and wanted to do it without Buffy's consent.
    Correct, but worth noting that Willow openly rationalized it as being for Buffy's benefit.

    * "I Will Remember You" (A 1.08) I consider was a test by the Powers That Be for Angel. While it wasn't good for the Buffy/Angel relationship, Angel's decision was good for his 'champion' role.

    ....

    * I consider the "I Will Remember You" (A 1.08) thing was a test from the Powers That Be and nothing happened to the real Buffy-it was all in Angel's head. Angel told Doyle (and Cordelia through Doyle) about it because both were concerned Angel would end 'the mission' and Angel Investigations if Angel could be with Buffy.
    This is more simply counterfactual than even being an example of headcanon. Angel didn't hallucinate the thing, the events transpired and the day reversed. There's no factual basis by which to dispute the face value explanation we are given in the episode. I am inclined to assume that you dislike it because of how Buffy reacted to Angel being human, which was enthusiastically and in all likelihood to the preclusion of her ever seizing the Spike.

    Even "Forever" (B 5.17) is interesting because it's implied that Buffy knows Spike went after the Gem of Amarra and Angel destroyed the Gem because of that and that's why Angel had to wait until nighttime to see Buffy. Did Buffy actually want Angel to stay with her? Would the "IWRY" thing help Buffy/Angel? Probably not.
    I don't think she was being super-earnest with a desire that he come back to Sunnydale when she said "forever" other than in the context of "this is how long I wish I could just be in my pain with you comforting me and not have to face everything that's coming; forever". As for if Buffy found out about Angel's choice in "I Will Remember You"? I tend to think the reason he never told her about it is because she would kick his provincial ass up and down La Cienega if she known he had just decided that for both of them on his own.

    * What if Spike had "taken back the day or hour or minutes" of the attempted rape? Would that mean that he never attempted to rape Buffy? Would that mean that the AR would/could/should have no effect on the Buffy/Spike relationship? Angel-from his perspective-robbed Buffy of the Buffy/Angel stuff in "I Will Remember You" (A 1.08).
    It would be a neat trick, but it still would have happened for him, subjectively. It would only effect their relationship to the degree it effected him, though. Interesting question -- does Spike go off in search of his soul if Buffy never subjectively experiences the AR, and only he does? Does the guilt over that rolled-back event do it, or was he driven more by the social consequences of Buffy experiencing it as well?

    * Angel reversed the day for himself, not for Buffy.
    I'd just insert a picture of a human head and a powder cannon at this point if I had the option; the only factually supportable statement one can make is that Angel didn't reverse the day at all, the annoying glitter twins reversed the day, in total, for everything.

    * From what I remember, and in my opinion, Joss Whedon has been barley involved in post-Season 9 (and even post-abortion storyline in BtVS S9). So much of Season 10 is opposed to previously established canon that it cannot be canon. Obviously, Season 11 cannot be canon. The only noteworthy thing regarding Season 10 is
    Spoiler:
    Buffy/Spike is 'endgame'.
    If you are going to flout all fact and reason and declare 9 and 10 non-canon, at least be internally consistent. You're basically saying "it's mostly not canon except for this bit I like most above all things". Convenient, that.

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  7. #25
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    It would be a neat trick, but it still would have happened for him, subjectively. It would only effect their relationship to the degree it effected him, though. Interesting question -- does Spike go off in search of his soul if Buffy never subjectively experiences the AR, and only he does? Does the guilt over that rolled-back event do it, or was he driven more by the social consequences of Buffy experiencing it as well?
    Buffy's reaction to the AR was so devastating to Spike, that even if he could roll back time, he'd still feel compelled to get a soul. I think he might have considered turning back time to save Buffy from the pain of the attack, but the PTB (or any other power) wouldn't have any reason to offer him that choice. Spike has always advised against magic, warning of unintended consequences, so I don't think he would turn to magic to help reverse this situation.

    I may be giving Spike too much credit here, but he's never shown any inclination to control people's minds or thoughts in the way Angel/Dru/Willow/Giles have (IIRC) so I'm not sure the idea of changing Buffy's memories would even enter his head, especially when he's in such a vulnerable emotional state right after the attack. Throughout the show we've seen that his choice is always to change himself, to be a different person, rather than changing anyone else

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  9. #26
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    He was looking to have the love spell done to Dru in his drunken maudlin state, but yeah, in the end he decided to change himself to what he felt would fit what she would be happier with, which is consistent with his resolution to the AR.

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  11. #27
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    I tend to think the reason he never told her about it is because she would kick his provincial ass up and down La Cienega if she known he had just decided that for both of them on his own.
    Yeah. Absolutely.

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