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Thread: Random Buffy Related Thoughts

  1. #821
    Bronze Party-Goer Rebcake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sosa lola View Post
    Why did Willow need Tara, Xander and Anya to raise Buffy from the dead? It seems like she did all the work. The only thing she didn't do was find the urn of Osiris, but during the resurrection itself, the others' roles were passive, they were just there to hold the candles.
    Rituals have more power with more participants, in theory. The cardinal points of the circle should be marked out, and having that done by candle-wielding practioners doesn't seem like a bad idea. Here's a link that discusses magic circles: http://www.witchcraftandwitches.com/...al_circle.html

    The writers could put in any "magic rules" they like, of course, but they borrow heavily from standard practice witchcraft. ;-)
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    Library Researcher SpuffyGlitz's Avatar
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    I recently watched Cruel Intentions and am once again amazed at SMG's acting prowess. If there was ever a soulless, vampire version of Buffy, it would be Kathryn Merteuil. And it gives me a kick to know there's a Black Black Heart video devoted to her, just as there's a similar one for Spike:

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  5. #823
    Scooby Gang TriBel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sosa lola View Post
    Why did Willow need Tara, Xander and Anya to raise Buffy from the dead? It seems like she did all the work. The only thing she didn't do was find the urn of Osiris, but during the resurrection itself, the others' roles were passive, they were just there to hold the candles.
    As Rebcake says,
    Rituals have more power with more participants, in theory.
    This applies to all "rituals" - be it, the social ritual of spending Christmas with the family, formalised rituals such as attending church or other places of worship or informal "rituals" such as shopping with friends in the Mall on Saturdays.

    Rituals bind communities and strengthen the bonds between groups. One of the ideological functions of a national broadcaster is to enable shared access to ceremonies (such as Coronations/Royal Weddings/Inaugurations etc.) creating the illusion of sameness across time and space. It's one of the ways "Imagined Communities" such as "nation" are created and sustained.

    I wonder who the the others were "holding a candle to" - Osiris - or Willow?

    On a different note: I've just watched Crush. During the conversation between Willow and Buffy in the Summer's living room, is there a figure of a knight on the mantelpiece?

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  7. #824
    Slayer Priceless's Avatar
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    Whedonesque just tweeted about this if anyone is interested, the first two volumes of the Tales of the Slayer series are being re-released as one book. These include short stories by the likes of Greg Rucka, Nancy Holder, Jane Espenson, Yvonne Navarro, Laura J. Burns and Melinda Metz. This'll be out in December. It's on Amazon for $9.99

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    Scooby Gang TriBel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Priceless View Post
    Whedonesque just tweeted about this if anyone is interested, the first two volumes of the Tales of the Slayer series are being re-released as one book. These include short stories by the likes of Greg Rucka, Nancy Holder, Jane Espenson, Yvonne Navarro, Laura J. Burns and Melinda Metz. This'll be out in December. It's on Amazon for $9.99
    I've got the Library Edition of Tales of the Slayers/Tales of the Vampires so I'm presuming they're included in that? I'll check when I get home. I actually preferred Vampires. I love the Spike/Dru in Prague.

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    Scooby Gang flow's Avatar
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    In Something Blue Spike is looking for the entrance to the Initiative (the one he presumably escaped through, though I don`t know, why he is so keen on going back after he just made it out) and he is looking on the ground. In New Moon Rising he shows the Scoobies a back door - similar to a door into a crypt - that leads into the Initiative (and isn`t locked at all) and in The Killer In Me he opens a lid in the ground to jump into the abandoned Initiave caves with Buffy.

    Are there more than one secret entrances to the Initiative? Why does Spike know them all? Does anyone have an explanation?

    flow
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    Slayer Supporter vampmogs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flow View Post
    In Something Blue Spike is looking for the entrance to the Initiative (the one he presumably escaped through, though I don`t know, why he is so keen on going back after he just made it out) and he is looking on the ground. In New Moon Rising he shows the Scoobies a back door - similar to a door into a crypt - that leads into the Initiative (and isn`t locked at all) and in The Killer In Me he opens a lid in the ground to jump into the abandoned Initiave caves with Buffy.

    Are there more than one secret entrances to the Initiative? Why does Spike know them all? Does anyone have an explanation?

    flow
    Well, I personally wouldn't look for much consistency between The Killer In Me and Season 4 as that episode has a few continuity errors. For example, Spike claims to remember the scientist's experimenting on him and that they would drug him every time the chip would kick in, however, in Season 4 he had absolutely no idea that he'd been experimented on and was completely surprised when he woke up in his cell and again when the chip fired when attacking Willow. At no point in Season 4 does Spike ever claim to have gotten his memories back. It's also stated at the end of Season 4 that they were filling the Initiative in with concrete and yet in The Killer In Me they're able to walk around in it.

    However, in all fairness, it's more than likely that there'd be several entrances to the Initiative base. We know for certain that this is true as not only do we see the entrance from the forest in Season 4 but we know you can also access the base from the elevator in the fraternity house as well. It's reasonable that Spike may know them all as Adam seems to have filled him in about the whereabouts/entrances to the Initiative when they were working together.
    "You've got ... a world of strength in your heart. I know you do. You just have to find it again. Believe in yourself."

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    Scooby Gang flow's Avatar
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    Oh thank you, you are fantastic! I had rewatched both scenes, when they went into the Initiative and it had totally escaped my notice, that Spike talks about being drugged in the Initiative whenever the chip had fired and caused him pain.

    That makes no sense at all, because the chip only started to work after Spike had escaped from the Initiative. He punched two lab guys and each of them several times during his escape. After that he pushed another vampire into a group of soldiers to keep them from running after him. Had his chip already been activated then, he should have gotten a major headache. So, we can assume, that trying to bite Willow was the first time the chip fired in connection with attacking a human. But maybe they had used the chip differently while he was still at the Initiative. Maybe they had activated it with a remote control whenever they wanted to. And he thought it worked like a taser and didn`t know that he had an implant in his head until Willow.

    Or maybe the writers just majorly srewed up and left plot holes big enough for a lorry to drive through :-)


    flow
    Last edited by flow; 16-09-18 at 09:32 PM.
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    I don't have too much issue rolling with Spike remembering different aspects of what happened to him in The Initiative a great deal of time afterwards. It was brain surgery after all, I can accept that it took a long time to recover and flashes of memory whilst he was drugged and operated on (and potentially the chip tested) coming back to him. Yes it's inconsistent, but it doesn't cause huge problems for me. I agree flow you have to just assume they remotely tripped the chip on fully after Spike escaped.

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    vampmogs
    It's also stated at the end of Season 4 that they were filling the Initiative in with concrete and yet in The Killer In Me they're able to walk around in it.
    That was probably due to corruption. Someone was paid for filling in the concrete and pocketed the money without doing the job properly. Or at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stoney View Post
    I agree flow you have to just assume they remotely tripped the chip on fully after Spike escaped.
    This is probably the best fanwank of the situation but Whedon was apparently really angry with Spike's escape scene in The Initiative. In one of the 20th Anniversary interviews (I believe with Doug Petrie?) Petrie explained that the stunt guys had completely messed up and weren't ever meant to show Spike hitting anyone. Whedon was supposedly livid when he saw the footage of the scene and they did their best to try and use whatever footage they had to make it work as they didn't have the time to reshoot it. Still, Spike clearly flips one of the scientists to the ground by his tie which should have caused the chip to fire. It gives me some comfort as I was always really perplexed by the inconsistencies in that scene but it's a shame we have to fanwank it.

    Quote Originally Posted by flow View Post
    vampmogs

    That was probably due to corruption. Someone was paid for filling in the concrete and pocketed the money without doing the job properly. Or at all.
    I'd more just go with the opinion that for whatever reason they changed their mind. I can't really believe that nobody in the government would be overseeing the closure of a top secret facility or notice that it hadn't been filled in with concrete as instructed.
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  22. #832
    Scooby Gang American Aurora's Avatar
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    Hey, Guys

    I'm embarrassed to say that I sat around far too long thinking a lot about the issues surrounding the chip and the Initiative when I did rewatch reviews of The Initiative, Pangs and The Yoko Factor.

    So here's my two cents:

    vampmogs:

    Well, I personally wouldn't look for much consistency between The Killer In Me and Season 4 as that episode has a few continuity errors. For example, Spike claims to remember the scientist's experimenting on him and that they would drug him every time the chip would kick in, however, in Season 4 he had absolutely no idea that he'd been experimented on and was completely surprised when he woke up in his cell and again when the chip fired when attacking Willow. At no point in Season 4 does Spike ever claim to have gotten his memories back. It's also stated at the end of Season 4 that they were filling the Initiative in with concrete and yet in The Killer In Me they're able to walk around in it.
    Yeah, the continuity with the Initiative is really a mess. I always figured like Stoney that Spike regained certain memories when his soul was returned to him - but I also fanwanked (weakly, mind you) that Spike experienced experimentation between the time when he woke up and when he escaped. During that time he did experience pain in his skull when taunted - and then the cycle of pain and drugs continued for a few days because they were testing it over and over - for at least a few days.

    Spike only put two-and-two together that it was actually something in his head causing the pain when the chip fired with Willow outside of the Initiative. Since he could hit the scientists on the way out, he probably initially believed that it was something within the purview of the testing site that caused him pain rather than something imbedded in him.

    The chip not working in Spike's escape is a real faux pas - and I noted that others suggested that either the chip wasn’t turned on until after his escape or that the chip required ample time to boot up – but this doesn’t explain why Spike remembers being experimented on.

    I fanwanked that there was some kind of electro-magnetic field within the Initiative itself that rendered the chip active or inactive and when the scientists came to pick him up each time, they had already deactivated it because they were planning to do mad scientist experiments to test it. They weren't worried about Spike's chip being ineffective because they thought he had been drugged - and he unknowingly took advantage of this small window of opportunity to escape.

    And -

    I know it's ridiculously over-the-top, but I actually worked out the timeline for Spike in the Initiative in my review of the episode.

    Spike’s natural hair color is already growing out as he awakens in his cell. Assuming that the last time Spike dyed his hair was right before he was captured by the Initiative, one can speculate that he hasn’t had a dye job for at least three weeks. If we assume that Fear, Itself took place on Sunday, October 31st, then Beer Bad might have happened directly afterward on November 1st and 2nd. Since the barkeeper said the effects of the tainted beer would only last a day, let’s assume that Buffy is cured by the time she allows herself to be chased by a vampire across campus, then Spike was captured by the Initiative on November 3rd or 4th. So we can safely say that Spike has been unconscious for a while – perhaps a week and a half – at the Initiative.

    Going backwards from the end of Pangs, which takes place on November 25th, The Initiative most likely takes place on either November 18th or 19th, 1999. So Spike could only have been held by the Initiative for two weeks total – and likely conscious for only a few days before his escape. If we count backwards to his capture, Spike has probably gone for three weeks without feeding by the time he approaches Buffy and the Scoobies in Pangs.


    flow:

    In Something Blue Spike is looking for the entrance to the Initiative (the one he presumably escaped through, though I don`t know, why he is so keen on going back after he just made it out) and he is looking on the ground. In New Moon Rising he shows the Scoobies a back door - similar to a door into a crypt - that leads into the Initiative (and isn`t locked at all) and in The Killer In Me he opens a lid in the ground to jump into the abandoned Initiave caves with Buffy. Are there more than one secret entrances to the Initiative? Why does Spike know them all? Does anyone have an explanation?
    I agree with vampmogs - I think that by that point, Adam has given Spike all the possible secret entrances and exits in order to convince the Scoobies that he's on the up-and-up and able to help them. Sneaky.
    Last edited by American Aurora; 17-09-18 at 05:48 AM.

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