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Thread: Random Buffy Related Thoughts

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    Quote Originally Posted by HardlyThere View Post
    This. She and FPJ have been bound at the hip since 1999/2000. She acts the same way with DB after she and her future husband went public. Both she and Michelle were pretty snuggly with Seth at the Paley thing if you wanted to see it that way. There were people speculating about she and Jason Behr during the promo run for that movie.



    The dailies are from S6, the one seasons there are extensive dailies from. There's no reason to think it wasn't common as JM has given anecdotes, namely about the blood-licking scene in Sleeper. For the dressing, fashion changed and the media probably played a lot. They waffled between calling her fat and anorexic from S3 on. Of course if she did show any skin, she was betraying the feminist ideals of Buffy Summers.

    The girl is no prude.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HardlyThere View Post
    They waffled between calling her fat and anorexic from S3 on. Of course if she did show any skin, she was betraying the feminist ideals of Buffy Summers.
    Can I say how much i hate fat shaming? And body shaming in general? Why can't they just let people be? I know it sounds hypocritical and maybe it is... usually i try not to discuss celebrities, but her persona seems to affect the work she's doing, so it's germane... anyway that's my argument and I'm sticking to it.

    One thing I liked about the show, was that there was some variation of body type.

    Seems that Joss had actually wanted a fat friend for Buffy, but it was too soon (and Regan was the wrong actress, b/c she did not come over the footlights at all) Now, we have shows with fatter people who aren't the joke, but back in '97, there weren't many larger actresses who weren't over 50 unless they were being played for laughs or weight WAS the story. Still, they shame people for every aspect of their bodies. Is there any surprise that some of the actors get squirrelly about what they will and won't do on film?

    Buffy's physically gaunt look near the end of the series kinda worked for me, b/c she seemed as if she was playing everything exhausted, and that made sense to me. She was probably too thin for her frame, but she did not look anorexic, just tired. On the whole, she was a woman shaped person, not a hip-less wonder, like some of those so called 'perfect' bodies out there. I liked her look, Dawn's and I liked that Tara wasn't a glamor puss, though i was not fond of her wardrobe for the most part.
    Last edited by DeepBlueJoy; 17-05-18 at 03:59 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeepBlueJoy View Post
    Can I say how much i hate fat shaming? And body shaming in general? Why can't they just let people be? I know it sounds hypocritical and maybe it is... usually i try not to discuss celebrities, but her persona seems to affect the work she's doing, so it's germane... anyway that's my argument and I'm sticking to it.

    One think I liked about the show was that there was some variation of body type.

    Seems that Joss had actually wanted a fat friend for Buffy, but it was too soon (and Regan was the wrong actress, b/c she did not come over the footlights at all) Now, we have shows with fatter people who aren't the joke, but back in '97, there weren't many larger actress who weren't over 50 unless they were being played for laughs or weight WAS the story. Still, they shame people for every aspect of their bodies. Is there any surprise that some of the actors get squirrelly about what they will and won't do on film?

    Buffy's physically gaunt look near the end of the series kinda worked for me, b/c she seemed as if she was playing everything exhausted, and that made sense to me. She was probably too thin for her frame, but she did not look anorexic, just tired. On the whole, she was a woman shaped person, not a hip-less wonder, like some of those so called 'perfect' bodies out there. I liked her look, Dawn's and I liked that Tara wasn't a glamor puss, though i was not fond of her wardrobe for the most part.
    I'm in puzzlement that SMG was ever called fat. Like... WTF???

    I think the 1990s were really bad in terms of body-shaming and especially the way that women were expected to be incredibly thin in order to be considered attractive and not-fat. A super skinny woman, or even better (read: worse), a super skinny woman with fake boobs (because you can't be super skinny and have big boobs unless they're fake, that's not how human bodies work) was the media ideal in that period.

    I've noticed that a lot of lead actresses in 1990s TV shows started off having attractive, slim but healthy and curvy bodies, and then, as the seasons went on, became skinnier and skinnier. For instance, Jane Leeves on Frasier or Jennifer Aniston and Courtney Cox on Friends. I don't see that on TV these days - overweight women, especially in leading roles are still rare, but most actresses seem to have normal weight, and would be called "fat" (and some do, but only by random people online) by the "everyone who isn't super skinny is fat" crowd, but most people consider them attractive.
    Last edited by TimeTravellingBunny; 16-05-18 at 08:12 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by flow View Post
    And here I was thinking, nothing could surprise me anymore after the all-penguin Spuffy fics.....

    flow
    Penguin fics? and further more

    Will someone PLEASE explainy?!!
    Last edited by DeepBlueJoy; 17-05-18 at 04:01 PM.

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    Related to this - I read a comment "elsewhere" that made a point that Buffy wouldn't let Spike see her body in S6. This was compared to her Bangel years when she was happy to flaunt herself to Angel. Of course - it was all constructed to make a criticism of Spuffy. My understanding (from the text) is that since "The Body" (S5), Buffy's had a problem with her own body, with corporeality, with flesh. I don't think it's any coincidence we see Joyce flaunt her live body in the episode before she dies. The corpse is the height of abjection - it reminds us how powerless we are in the face of our biology, in the face of nature. In fact, it reminds us of the knowledge we suppress - that we're not much different from animals. In S6, Buffy hates her body even more - her corporeality is a constant reminder not just of her mother but of her own incorporeality in Heaven. The point I'm making is the state of her body - how it looks, how it's dressed, its posture - is thematically important in 6. Similarly in S7, I've heard it said she has "lifeless" hands and this is an indication of how "tired" she was (and because she hated S6, Marti Noxon blah, blah, blah) . This might be true but traditionally hands represent a person's humanity - if she feels she's losing her humanity, it'll make sense she has "lifeless hands".

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    Quote Originally Posted by TriBel View Post
    Related to this - I read a comment "elsewhere" that made a point that Buffy wouldn't let Spike see her body in S6. This was compared to her Bangel years when she was happy to flaunt herself to Angel. Of course - it was all constructed to make a criticism of Spuffy. My understanding (from the text) is that since "The Body" (S5), Buffy's had a problem with her own body, with corporeality, with flesh. I don't think it's any coincidence we see Joyce flaunt her live body in the episode before she dies. The corpse is the height of abjection - it reminds us how powerless we are in the face of our biology, in the face of nature. In fact, it reminds us of the knowledge we suppress - that we're not much different from animals. In S6, Buffy hates her body even more - her corporeality is a constant reminder not just of her mother but of her own incorporeality in Heaven. The point I'm making is the state of her body - how it looks, how it's dressed, its posture - is thematically important in 6. Similarly in S7, I've heard it said she has "lifeless" hands and this is an indication of how "tired" she was (and because she hated S6, Marti Noxon blah, blah, blah) . This might be true but traditionally hands represent a person's humanity - if she feels she's losing her humanity, it'll make sense she has "lifeless hands".
    When did Buffy "flaunt her body" in front of Angel?
    And of course Buffy did let Spike see her body in season 6, plenty - while they were having sex. Do people really think she was dressed all the time during off-screen sex? The only times she was mostly dressed during sex were the same times he was dressed as well (Smashed, by the dumpster in Doublemeat Palace, balcony scene in Dead Things). It's just that SMG didn't want to be nude on screen. And it's not like she was ever nude on screen in the earlier seasons, either.
    You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TimeTravellingBunny View Post
    I'm in puzzlement that SMG was ever called fat. Like... WTF???

    I think the 1990s were really bad in terms of body-shaming and especially the way that women were expected to be incredibly thin in order to be considered attractive and not-fat. A super skinny woman, or even better (read: worse), a super skinny woman with fake boobs (because you can't be super skinny and have big boobs unless they're fake, that's not how human bodies work) was the media ideal in that period.

    I've noticed that a lot of lead actresses in 1990s TV shows started off having attractive, slim but healthy and curvy bodies, and then, as the seasons went on, became skinnier and skinnier. For instance, Jane Leeves on Frasier or Jennifer Aniston and Courtney Cox on Friends. I don't see that on TV these days - overweight women, especially in leading roles are still rare, but most actresses seem to have normal weight, and would be called "fat" (and some do, but only by random people online) by the "everyone who isn't super skinny is fat" crowd, but most people consider them attractive.
    Absurd isn't it? The 90s were brutal for any lead actress. Gain a pound, you're fat or pregnant. Or you have an eating disorder. Or both. It's part of the reason I get twitchy when fanfic writers have Spike complain about the girl's weight.

    Quote Originally Posted by TriBel View Post
    Related to this - I read a comment "elsewhere" that made a point that Buffy wouldn't let Spike see her body in S6. This was compared to her Bangel years when she was happy to flaunt herself to Angel. Of course - it was all constructed to make a criticism of Spuffy. My understanding (from the text) is that since "The Body" (S5), Buffy's had a problem with her own body, with corporeality, with flesh. I don't think it's any coincidence we see Joyce flaunt her live body in the episode before she dies. The corpse is the height of abjection - it reminds us how powerless we are in the face of our biology, in the face of nature. In fact, it reminds us of the knowledge we suppress - that we're not much different from animals. In S6, Buffy hates her body even more - her corporeality is a constant reminder not just of her mother but of her own incorporeality in Heaven. The point I'm making is the state of her body - how it looks, how it's dressed, its posture - is thematically important in 6. Similarly in S7, I've heard it said she has "lifeless" hands and this is an indication of how "tired" she was (and because she hated S6, Marti Noxon blah, blah, blah) . This might be true but traditionally hands represent a person's humanity - if she feels she's losing her humanity, it'll make sense she has "lifeless hands".
    That's some thin stuff. Buffy and Spike are going at it regularly in not daily in S6. There's only so much hiding you can do. The only time I can think of her hiding herself from him is the morning after in Wrecked when she's freaking. The fact that she's naked and thus needs to hide pretty much debunks that argument. Even in As You Were, they both completely undress. So not so much with the hiding unless you count quickie sex outside the Doublemeat.

    As for the acting in S7, Buffy is exhausted and that's how it's played. Being burnt out and making wild gesticulations don't go hand in hand. One of my favorite script notes from Touched exemplifies this.

    -ANGLE ON BUFFY as her face takes on a look of recognition. And just a faint smile, but the first smile we've seen in a long time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TimeTravellingBunny View Post
    When did Buffy "flaunt her body" in front of Angel?
    And of course Buffy did let Spike see her body in season 6, plenty - while they were having sex. Do people really think she was dressed all the time during off-screen sex? The only times she was mostly dressed during sex were the same times he was dressed as well (Smashed, by the dumpster in Doublemeat Palace, balcony scene in Dead Things). It's just that SMG didn't want to be nude on screen. And it's not like she was ever nude on screen in the earlier seasons, either.
    LOL! I don't know! I think the shot shown was just before Angel turned into Angelus. And because she hid under strategically placed carpets. Please don't ask me to get inside certain people's heads - they're alien to me!

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    Her clothing in the first two seasons seems to be generally more form fitting and/or more revealing than her later choices. More colorful and more fashionable too, at least to my eye. Some of her later choices were downright momish... and not stylish mom, either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeepBlueJoy View Post
    Her clothing in the first two seasons seems to be generally more form fitting and/or more revealing than her later choices. More colorful and more fashionable too, at least to my eye. Some of her later choices were downright momish... and not stylish mom, either.
    It first started in season 3, around the time Faith appeared. Buffy suddenly started dressing like a soccer mom - probably because they were trying to make a stronger contrast between her and "bad girl" Faith.
    You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheese Slices View Post
    It's weird because while I do get a prudish vibe from SMG, she gives an entirely different impression in the dailies/bloopers thingies. She makes some pretty crude jokes (at least for a prudish person), and she swears quite a lot.
    But this is quite different from doing sex scenes with nudity, which many actors do without a problem.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by TimeTravellingBunny View Post
    When did Buffy "flaunt her body" in front of Angel?
    And of course Buffy did let Spike see her body in season 6, plenty - while they were having sex. Do people really think she was dressed all the time during off-screen sex? The only times she was mostly dressed during sex were the same times he was dressed as well (Smashed, by the dumpster in Doublemeat Palace, balcony scene in Dead Things). It's just that SMG didn't want to be nude on screen. And it's not like she was ever nude on screen in the earlier seasons, either.
    When I see shows nowadays and remember the so hot sex scenes.from Buffy... they were NOTHING! If Fred had problem with those...
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeepBlueJoy View Post
    Her clothing in the first two seasons seems to be generally more form fitting and/or more revealing than her later choices. More colorful and more fashionable too, at least to my eye. Some of her later choices were downright momish... and not stylish mom, either.
    But isn't that one of the points made is S7 (Lessons) by the reference to "Mom Hair"? I think much of S6/7 was directly related to the loss of Joyce and Buffy's attempts to recover her. Perhaps by being her?

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    Quote Originally Posted by betta View Post
    But this is quite different from doing sex scenes with nudity, which many actors do without a problem.

    - - - Updated - - -



    When I see shows nowadays and remember the so hot sex scenes.from Buffy... they were NOTHING! If Fred had problem with those...
    Well, that's what the advent of cable and streaming have done for TV. At least on US TV. Some of the UK shows of the time had pretty explicit sex scenes (including same sex ones) that would be unimaginable on US network TV.

    Most of those scenes are still nothing to what you can see in some of the art movies (I suppose those would be the NC 17 rated ones). You watch Intimacy and go... wow... great movie, but the actors were OK with doing these scenes, and so were their significant others?
    You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by betta View Post
    But this is quite different from doing sex scenes with nudity, which many actors do without a problem.
    Yeah, you are correct. I cuss like a sailor and have no problem doing it publicly. My humor is all bawdy.

    I also talk freely about sex and even 'hot' topics like sex abuse... but maybe because of the aforementioned abuse, I tend to dress relatively modestly compared women my age... pretty much ever since puberty.

    (Of course, in my case I also dress in a way that is more or less androgynous) Part of it is modesty from my days in church, and part of it is practicality. If clothes are not practical, comfortable and don't have pockets, I won't wear them.

    Not sure anyone would find me 'soccer mom' in my attire... probably more soccer dad!!

    Quote Originally Posted by betta View Post
    When I see shows nowadays and remember the so hot sex scenes from Buffy... they were NOTHING! If Fred had problem with those...
    Yes, well maybe that's why we don't see Sarah in anything on TV. Though a show like Criminal Minds or L&O, SVU might be happy for her, and I doubt they'd require nudity, and I think she'd do well... But nudity is on the rise and I doubt we're gonna go backward unless the handmaiden's tale became reality... and maybe not even then.

    With all the new sources of non OTA TV, TV aimed at the same general audience is a lot more naked. The fact of more European actors in US TV probably hasn't hurt that trend. There's not just sexual nudity, but casual, incidental nudity. I think it has demystified the human body on the screen. I think porn has desensitized EVERYONE to nudity and sexual mechanics.

    Sadly, nothing seems to be promoting true intimacy, on or off screen. But intimacy requires better writers. A lot of shows seem to be substituting glitz, sex and tech for actual content.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TimeTravellingBunny View Post
    Well, that's what the advent of cable and streaming have done for TV. At least on US TV. Some of the UK shows of the time had pretty explicit sex scenes (including same sex ones) that would be unimaginable on US network TV.

    Most of those scenes are still nothing to what you can see in some of the art movies (I suppose those would be the NC 17 rated ones). You watch Intimacy and go... wow... great movie, but the actors were OK with doing these scenes, and so were their significant others?
    Well, I suppose so. In Brazil neither the actors have never had problem with nudity or sexual scenes (mostly in movies, less on TV) nor their partners as I can tell. And husbands and boyfriends didn't have a problem with their partners posing nude to Playboy, as well (which was something to be proud and gave status for those who did - not anymore; the Brazilian edition ended because it seems you can have all nudity you want on the Internet...) All respected and talented actresses, mind you.

    I really get surprised when (adult) people talk about Spuffy sex as something "degrading", it's hilarious to me, both concerning the characters and actors, since they really didn't do (or show) much...

    And still, in some movies or shows I do go "wow"... like the actor masturbating (without success) in Outlander...
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    It first started in season 3, around the time Faith appeared. Buffy suddenly started dressing like a soccer mom - probably because they were trying to make a stronger contrast between her and "bad girl" Faith.
    I presumed, they wanted to make her look older, to brush over the ickyness of the age difference between her and Angel.

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    There are other factors at play aside from willingness, though. There's the context in which it happens that, I think, tends to be much more insidious in the US than in other cinema and a lot more prevalent in the 90s/00s than today. Joss makes a pass at it in the episode of Angel where Cordy shoots a commercial.

    Take James, for instance. He's a theater actor who was naked on stage and even he had issues with some of the S6 stuff. I'd say it's less about prudishness and more about control and not feeling exploited.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by flow View Post
    I presumed, they wanted to make her look older, to brush over the ickyness of the age difference between her and Angel.

    flow
    They had no issues in S1 or S2.

    It was about making her not!Faith.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeepBlueJoy View Post
    Yeah, you are correct. I cuss like a sailor and have no problem doing it publicly. My humor is all bawdy.

    I also talk freely about sex and even 'hot' topics like sex abuse... but maybe because of the aforementioned abuse, I tend to dress relatively modestly compared women my age... pretty much ever since puberty.

    (Of course, in my case I also dress in a way that is more or less androgynous) Part of it is modesty from my days in church, and part of it is practicality. If clothes are not practical, comfortable and don't have pockets, I won't wear them.

    Not sure anyone would find me 'soccer mom' in my attire... probably more soccer dad!!



    Yes, well maybe that's why we don't see Sarah in anything on TV. Though a show like Criminal Minds or L&O, SVU might be happy for her, and I doubt they'd require nudity, and I think she'd do well... But nudity is on the rise and I doubt we're gonna go backward unless the handmaiden's tale became reality... and maybe not even then.

    With all the new sources of non OTA TV, TV aimed at the same general audience is a lot more naked. The fact of more European actors in US TV probably hasn't hurt that trend. There's not just sexual nudity, but casual, incidental nudity. I think it has demystified the human body on the screen. I think porn has desensitized EVERYONE to nudity and sexual mechanics.

    Sadly, nothing seems to be promoting true intimacy, on or off screen. But intimacy requires better writers. A lot of shows seem to be substituting glitz, sex and tech for actual content.
    Eh, there's plenty of shows on TV where you don't get to see any nudity. Most of the US network shows can't even feature nudity - at most you see shirtless men and women in neglige, and making out and hinting at off screen sex is as far as they go with sex scenes. Not all the cable shows feature nudity or sex, either - I don't think The Walking Dead ever had one, but it always has a lot of really explicit and gruesome violence. US TV and movies are still much more likely to feature explicit violence than sex.

    It's just a certain number of popular cable and streaming shows that feature a significant amount of nudity and/or sex. The sex scenes on Outlander or Jessica Jones are still talked about as a really big deal. A m/m sex scene on American Gods was talked about a lot. There seem to be a lot more of just fanservicey nudity (and predominantly female nudity) on something like Game of Thrones, which became notorious for the "sexposition" scenes and apparently has had an exec whose only job was to get as much female nudity on screen as possible, to cater to "the pervert demographic" (this is an actual quote by the guy, according to Neil Marshal, who directed some episodes). So if she specifically wanted to be on GoT, or some other shows known for featuring a lot of nudity and sex, she'd quite likely to be asked to get her clothes off - though not necessarily, as some actresses have a no-nude clause in their contracts. (I don't think Lena Headey was ever nude on screen, in spite of having had several sex scenes, and even in the one scene where her character is supposed to be naked and it's really important plot point - she had a body double). But there's a ton of shows that don't require any nudity or any sex scenes other than kissing - most procedurals, sitcoms, superhero shows that are on networks, etc.

    Hollywood ageism is far more likely to be an obstacle now that she's turned 40 (which, for Hollywood, means you may have to be put to pasture if you're a woman), especially since she's been mostly absent from TV for a long time, with just a couple of unsuccessful shows, and hasn't had a steady career.
    You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TimeTravellingBunny View Post

    Hollywood ageism is far more likely to be an obstacle now that she's turned 40 (which, for Hollywood, means you may have to be put to pasture if you're a woman), especially since she's been mostly absent from TV for a long time, with just a couple of unsuccessful shows, and hasn't had a steady career.
    Undoubtedly. Also, her husband has slipped and said she more or less retired and stopped looking for work after the show with Williams was cancelled.

    After reading this from creator D.E.K., it's little to wonder why one might be disenchanted with things.

    But Kelley kept watching – and didn’t like what he saw. “Robin Williams was great… but the stories made me want to hold my nose,” he said. “I went to CBS and said to them, ‘This isn’t very good.’ The ratings were… their response was, basically, ‘We don’t care if it’s any good. The way people watch TV now, is they’ve got their computers open, they’re updating their Facebook status. They have their iPads. They’re doing an email. They’re looking up at the television. Robin Williams is funny. It’s very compatible, this show with the way people watch TV now.'”

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    Now that there is the possibility of a dander baby I'm hearing the ship name more often. Is it pronounced Dan der (like dandruff) or dawn der ? I've been hearing dander like dandruff. Poor unfortunate ship name for an innocent little baby. Of course every time I see Bangel I think bangle like the bracelet so maybe it's me?


    I like who I am when Im with him. I like who we are together.

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