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Thread: Best season for each character

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    Default Best season for each character

    Thread title is pretty self-explanatory.

    Angel
    Season 2. I loved the heavy focus on Angel/Darla, and his 'beige arc' (where that nickname come from, anyway?) provided some of the series' best episodes and fueled its best season.

    Cordy
    Season 1, hands down. She didn't get that much to do during Season 2, and I've never seen a TV show completely ruin a character the way this show ruined Cordy in Seasons 3-4.

    Wesley
    Season 4. Wesley was the best thing about Angel for me. I don't understand Hollywood or the acting game at all, because I'm genuinely stumped as to why Alexis Denisof didn't go on to have a better career after this show. At least with Sarah Michelle Gellar, it was due to bad choices and her being more interested in her personal life, but I haven't a clue with Denisof.

    Gunn
    Season 2. Technically, I think his Season 5 arc was the best. The writers never seemed to know what to do with Gunn in Seasons 3-4, and his decision to stop leading his own crew to become one of Angel's sidekicks in Season 2 was never justified. But he was so fun here, and I loved the Cordy/Wes/Gunn trio.

    Fred
    Season 4, mainly due to "The Magic Bullet", which Amy Acker owned. To be honest, I preferred Illyria though. You have no idea how pissed I was when Illyria showed up and I saw the depth of Amy Acker's acting talent. Made me realize how much the writers wasted Fred and Acker's acting talent by sticking her into lame love triangles for three years.

    Lorne
    Season 2. I remember being extremely intrigued and entertained by his character when watching this season for the first time, and I loved the Caritas set. I think David Greenwalt was one of the weaker writers on the series, but no one was better at writing Lorne than he was. When Greenwalt left, Lorne should have too, because he was really wasted in Seasons 4-5.

    Lilah
    Season 4. Consistently hilarious and her relationship with Wes, in addition to being one of the best ships ever, revealed a lot of depth to her character.

    Darla
    Season 2. I said before that Season 2 was my favorite, and she was the reason why.

    Harmony
    She was only on the show for one season, but I included her to say that I enjoyed her on Angel more than I did on Buffy.

    Drusilla
    Same as Harmony. Dru showing up to sire Darla was one of the best plot twists ever. "The Trial" / "Reunion" was like "Surprise" / "Innocence" in that it was the moment when this show became outstanding television, and Dru was definitely a huge part of it. Gotta to give her her due.

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    I agree with you on almost all of these. The only thing I would disagree with is that I don't think Drusilla was better on Angel, she was amazing in season 2 of BtVS. But she's great in S2 of AtS, too, so it's hard to pick one or the other.

    BTW, while I agree that Cordelia's best season on AtS was season 1, my unpopular opinion is that she was better in BtVS seasons 2 and 3 than on AtS.

    Harmony was better on AtS, though.

    Faith was great whenever she appeared on either show and it's hard to pick one or the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew S. View Post
    Wesley
    Season 4. Wesley was the best thing about Angel for me. I don't understand Hollywood or the acting game at all, because I'm genuinely stumped as to why Alexis Denisof didn't go on to have a better career after this show. At least with Sarah Michelle Gellar, it was due to bad choices and her being more interested in her personal life, but I haven't a clue with Denisof.
    Hollywood works in mysterious ways. I've asked myself the same question about many actors - and conversely, there are so many stars that make you wonder 'how the heck did this person become a big star?'

    You have no idea how pissed I was when Illyria showed up and I saw the depth of Amy Acker's acting talent. Made me realize how much the writers wasted Fred and Acker's acting talent by sticking her into lame love triangles for three years.
    So much this.

    But it also doesn't justify the crappy way they killed Fred off to give Amy Acker Illyria to play. They could have instead written Fred better.
    You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

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    Yes!! to preferring Illyria to Fred and for relationship fatigue with Fred. I loved Wes, Connor and Angel so much in this series and although I like all of them, seasons 3 and 4 are my favourite.

    Gunn's season 5 was one of my biggest disappointments with the show. I thought that the aspect of his character's insecurities/issues which led him to agreeing to the deal was fascinating and worked really well with the chip on his shoulder that was there from the start. But it felt under explored and I wonder how much more time would have been given to this shift if the network hadn't insisted on Spike being shoved into the cast and him taking so much of the script focus in the final season.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TimeTravellingBunny
    I agree with you on almost all of these. The only thing I would disagree with is that I don't think Drusilla was better on Angel, she was amazing in season 2 of BtVS. But she's great in S2 of AtS, too, so it's hard to pick one or the other.

    BTW, while I agree that Cordelia's best season on AtS was season 1, my unpopular opinion is that she was better in BtVS seasons 2 and 3 than on AtS.
    Yeah, Dru was probably better on Buffy simply because she had more screen time and more to do. But on the other hand, she made such an impression on Angel during those 2 episodes I mention that I can't help but feel she would have been even better on there if she had stuck around more during the season like Darla did. "Reunion" is easily my favorite episode for Drusilla, followed by "Surprise". Juliet Landau is another actor I feel was underrated. I was never not fascinated whenever she was on-screen.

    On Cordy, I agree with you on Buffy Season 2 being the best for her character, but I don't think did enough in Season 3 for me to rate it over her showing in Angel Season 1. Cordy's development was honestly my favorite thing about the first season. She was the heart of the series during Seasons 1 and 2, and I can't imagine the show working without her during those seasons. It's a shame she ends up becoming the worst thing about the series in Seasons 3 and 4.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stoney
    Yes!! to preferring Illyria to Fred and for relationship fatigue with Fred. I loved Wes, Connor and Angel so much in this series and although I like all of them, seasons 3 and 4 are my favourite.
    Oops, I forgot about Connor! I enjoyed his character a great deal when he first showed up in Season 3 (as a teenager, that is), but then in Season 4 he started to bug me. As Vincent Kartheiser said, he would show up, have a scene with Cordelia, fight with Angel and then do the same thing each episode. It got repetitive quite fast, I'm afraid. However, I did enjoy his character a great deal towards the end of Season 4 during the Jasmine arc. That's when he really blossomed. His monologue to comatose-Cordy in the church scene broke my heart, as well as pretty much all of "Home". Kartheiser is another actor in the shows that I felt was underrated. I had some problems with Connor's character, but his performance was always excellent.

    Love Wes, too. Angel, on the other hand, I don't love. I think he's extremely unlikeable (especially in Seasons 4-5), but I can't deny he's a compelling protagonist and he really blossomed on this series.

    I'm glad you both share my disappointment with Fred. It's funny that Buffy is known for being one of the most feminist TV shows ever, but its spinoff is definitely one of the most un-feminist TV shows ever. Season 5 has to be the worst television season I've ever seen for female characters. As much as I love Illyria (she saved Season 5, which sucked for the first two-thirds IMO; most overrated season ever), it pisses me off to no end when I see "A Hole in the World" on lists of the series' best episodes. Despite the great performances, it just feels like melodramatic, sexist, torture porn for me.

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    * The problem with AtS, is so much of AtS s1 through AtS s4 can/is because of Jasmine.


    * Spike, Andrew Wells, and Illyria are the ones who show much of any character growth in AtS S5. Cordelia Chase (if that was actually her) pretty much deludes herself if she considers she's the love of Angel's life.


    * Wesley Wyndam-Pryyce got better in AtS and Alexis Denisof proved a better actor than Anthony Stewart Head and possibly a better choice to play Giles than ASH. AtS S5 would have been better had Wesley been with Lilah Morgan. His relationship with Fred lessened him.


    * Angel became a different character in AtS. Suddenly, he's funny. Suddenly, he wasn't moping for 100 years. His flashbacks make Angelus seem much less formidable and scary than he's shown BtVS. His flashbacks make Cursed Angel seem much more evil than what BtVS S1-BtVS S3 suggested/implied/inferred.


    * Cordelia Chase was ruined. It's implied she was sleeping around trying to get acting jobs. She gets impregnated with demon spawn. The visions force her importance. Hers becoming half-demon and more powerful than Buffy is insulting to Buffy. Hers becoming a higher being is insulting to everyone in BtVS. And it's only made better in "Inside Out" (A 4.17).


    * Fred is probably all because of Jasmine and then she's simply a tool for Illyria in AtS S5 and then is no more than Illyria takes over (discounting post-Season 9).


    * Lorne is mostly just there also likely because of Jasmine. He's mostly just there in AtS S5.


    * Darla is simply a tool for Wolfram and Hart and Jasmine.


    * Drusilla was simply in AtS s2 to boost AtS's ratings. The only notable things are she sires Darla and Wolfram and Hart do nothing against her.


    * Faith instead of being a Slayer goes to prison.


    * Buffy never has a good Season and in fact is the only BtVS character made to look bad in AtS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeB View Post
    * The problem with AtS, is so much of AtS s1 through AtS s4 can/is because of Jasmine.
    I never believed that. The whole 'Jasmine planned everything' retcon reeks of desperation on the writers' part to cover their tracks for the sloppy plotting of Season 4. Jasmine's apocalypse plan honestly made very little sense throughout the season, and Lorne's comment -- "I think the Beastmaster is just making it up as he goes along" -- seemed to be a very meta-line about the writers making up Season 4 as they went long. It's very easy for me to believe that Skip, such an unreliable source of information, was either lying or that Jasmine was so full of herself that she simply told Skip told that. IMO, Jasmine was an opportunist. She saw the birth of Connor, and knew Cordelia was linked to the Powers That Be, so she decided to use both of those factors to plan her move to take over Earth. But she did not cause those factors to happen.

    And if everything that happened on Angel Seasons 1-4 was because of Jasmine, then who's to say the events of Buffy Seasons 1-3 (or even, Seasons 4-7) weren't due to Jasmine either? It's just a sloppy retcon that completely undermines the show. It basically feels like nothing that happens on the show matters if it was all due to Jasmine. "Doyle overcame his self-hatred and sacrificed himself for his demon race? Well, that was due to Jasmine, so it doesn't matter. Cordy became more heroic because of her visions? Well, that was due to Jasmine, so it doesn't matter. Darla learned to love and sacrificed herself to give Connor life? Well, that was due to Jasmine, so it doesn't matter." Cheap narrative trick, with no hints beforehand or substantial evidence at all to imply that it was true.

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeB
    * Cordelia Chase was ruined. It's implied she was sleeping around trying to get acting jobs. She gets impregnated with demon spawn. The visions force her importance. Hers becoming half-demon and more powerful than Buffy is insulting to Buffy. Hers becoming a higher being is insulting to everyone in BtVS. And it's only made better in "Inside Out" (A 4.17).
    It was never implied that Cordelia was sleeping around for acting jobs. In "City Of", Cordelia -- in a moment of desperation -- reluctantly asks Russell Winters what he wants her to do, implying that she's sunk so low in her self-esteem/funk that she's agreeing to become his prostitute, but she quickly bounces back from that and there's nothing to indicate that she ever slept around for acting jobs before or after that instance.
    Last edited by Andrew S.; 11-10-17 at 10:50 PM.

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    Hey! I never posted that Cordelia Chase was sleeping around trying to get acting jobs, that was MikeB.

    EDIT: who posted that statement I mean, not who was sleeping around trying to get acting jobs!
    Last edited by Stoney; 11-10-17 at 10:20 PM.

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    Whoops! Sorry, Stoney, it's fixed.

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    Andrew S.

    * Skip in “Inside Out” (A 4.17) never mentions anything about non-AtS characters including Oz, Spike, Buffy, Faith, and Drusilla.

    But stuff in AtS only really make much sense—or is made tolerable/better—because of Jasmine’s influence and machinations. Angel/Darla, Angel/Cordelia, Connor existing, Fred’s situation, Cordelia’s situation, Angel’s getting a huge hotel yet never bothering to provide any financial support to Buffy, etc.

    It basically feels like nothing that happens on the show matters if it was all due to Jasmine.
    That a major reason why AtS s1-s4 has not and is not discussed and debated relatively much.


    * Doyle’s being Angel’s guide instead of Whistler never made much sense until BtVS S8.


    * Cordy getting visions was always ridiculous. They hurt the half-demon Doyle yet Doyle assumed Cordy could handle them? Even Drusilla used to feel some pain from visions (and her visions are her own power, not something sent to her by the Powers That Be).

    It wasn’t heroic for Cordy to be delusional enough to consider that she could handle the visions greatly better than Angel could. In reality, it made very little sense that Cordy wouldn’t have gone to college. Going to Columbia University is far better than what her life was in Los Angeles.


    * Darla herself never became a ‘better person’. Even before “Inside Out” (A 4.17), it was clear that Connor’s soul was solely responsible for Darla’s ‘goodness’ and she staked herself because she reasoned she’d kill Connor after he was born.


    * Again, it’s always been ridiculous for anyone to try to argue that AtS s1 through AtS s4 makes more sense if Skip was lying in “Inside Out” (A 4.17). Angel’s suddenly in love with Darla? Angel suddenly willing to die so that Darla can live? Buffy who? Angel/Cordy assumes Angel forgot the reasons he broke up with Buffy and assumes Cordy suddenly no longer cares about having sex and that suddenly she’s attracted to Angel again after not being attracted to him in AtS s1 and AtS s2. Fred stays with Angel and Co. instead of going into academia or whatever? Gunn suddenly abandons his ‘gang’ to live in one of Angel’s hotel rooms? Even Wesley’s story only makes sense if it could be at all realistic that Wesley suddenly was broke and almost homeless (which is not realistic). Wesley only started working for Angel because Wes was almost starving. Sure, Wesley wasn’t the best ever Watcher to Faith and Buffy, but that doesn’t mean his family would completely ‘cut him off’. Wesley was still upper class.


    * Why would Cordy offer sexual favors to Russell Winters if she’d never offered sexual favors before? Cordy decides against that because she then quickly realizes that Russell is a vampire. It’s implied-to-almost certain canon that Cordy graduated high school a virgin. But she wasn’t a virgin when she slept with that photographer guy. So, it’s implied she was offering sexual favors to try to get acting gigs. Again, all this fits with Cordy’s time in AtS s1-AtS s4 being because of Jasmine. She was in love with Xander yet never had sex with him. She was accepted to excellent colleges that would have given her significant financial aid. There’s almost nothing in BtVS that suggested Cordy wanted to be an actress or even in the entertainment business in general. If anything, Jasmine is the only in-‘verse reason it makes much sense that Cordy wouldn’t have attended UC Sunnydale and continue being a Scooby.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeB View Post
    Andrew S.

    * Skip in “Inside Out” (A 4.17) never mentions anything about non-AtS characters including Oz, Spike, Buffy, Faith, and Drusilla.
    Probably because most of the people in the room had little-to-no idea who some of those people are, and it was unlikely they would care. Skip said things that he knew would mess with the group's head regarding *them*. I doubt anybody would be affected much if Skip told them that Jasmine caused a chip to be implanted in Spike's head, for instance.

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeB
    But stuff in AtS only really make much sense—or is made tolerable/better—because of Jasmine’s influence and machinations. Angel/Darla, Angel/Cordelia, Connor existing, Fred’s situation, Cordelia’s situation, Angel’s getting a huge hotel yet never bothering to provide any financial support to Buffy, etc.
    In other words, that's just YOUR interpretation, along with everything else you say in your post. It seems you use the Jasmine retcon to explain everything you don't like about the show because Skip never said anything about Jasmine influencing Angel to fall in love with Cordy or to buy the Hyperion. There are plenty of plot holes and things that don't make sense in BtVS. How do you explain those?

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeB
    * Why would Cordy offer sexual favors to Russell Winters if she’d never offered sexual favors before?
    Because she was at the height of her desperation, and there's a first time for everything. Your question doesn't make much sense to me. If Cordy (according to you) goes around offering sexual favors to people, then logically there had to have been a FIRST time that she offered one. Her offering herself to Russell was the first. And only.

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeB
    Cordy decides against that because she then quickly realizes that Russell is a vampire. It’s implied-to-almost certain canon that Cordy graduated high school a virgin.
    I didn't feel like debating the rest of your bulletpoints, but I'll talk about these because I have a lot of thoughts on Cordy's sexuality. The shows are really vague when it comes to Cordy and sex, so I've developed a lot of thoughts and personal canons based on the little we DO see of her sex life.

    First of all, when was it implied that Cordy graduated high school a virgin? It's never really confirmed either way. Neither shows really give much information on Cordy's high school sex-life or views on sex at all.

    From "Bad Eggs":
    CORDELIA: "Are you talking about sex *in* the car or *out* of the car? Because I have this friend -- not me -- who was parked in a Miata at the top of a hill and then she kicked the gearshift..."

    Charisma Carpenter delivers the "not me" bit like Cordy is obviously lying when she says it wasn't her, and in an interview, Carpenter said she was directed during the closet kissing scenes between her and Xander to act as if Cordy was experienced.

    I have my own personal canon on this subject. I assume Cordelia lost her virginity sometime pre-Xander. In my opinion, one of the things that made Cordelia fall in love with Xander was that he was so different from the Jerk Jock guys she always dated before who always pressured her into having sex (Mitch, the douchey college frat boys). I assume that, due to her heavy feelings for Xander, she wanted to wait to have sex with him so it would be really special. And Xander wouldn't have minded because he's not the type of guy to pressure girls into having sex with him (like I said, a reason why Cordelia liked him so much), and also because I think Xander probably secretly hoped that his first time having sex would be with Buffy anyway.

    But she wasn't a virgin when she slept with that photographer guy. So, it’s implied she was offering sexual favors to try to get acting gigs. Again, all this fits with Cordy’s time in AtS s1-AtS s4 being because of Jasmine. She was in love with Xander yet never had sex with him.
    How do you know she wasn't a virgin when she slept with that photographer guy? Again, the show never confirms it either way. And how does Cordy's high school-early L.A. sex life have anything to do with Jasmine?

    I don't want to sound rude, but maybe you should go rewatch the scene between Cordy and Russell Winters in "City Of". The high point of Cordy's acting career, as of "City Of", was *almost* having her hands in a Liqui-Gel commercial. If she had been sleeping around for acting jobs as much as you imply, I'm sure she could have done way better than that.

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeB
    She was accepted to excellent colleges that would have given her significant financial aid. There’s almost nothing in BtVS that suggested Cordy wanted to be an actress or even in the entertainment business in general.
    Financial aid/scholarships don't always cover everything. There are plenty of college students with financial aid that still have to work their asses off for books and housing fees, extra expenses, etc. And Cordy doesn't have that kind of work ethic. She despises being a "name-tag person".

    Cordy wanting to be an actress does make sense if you consider her personality. She loves herself, she loves attention, she loves popularity. Throughout her entire time in the Buffyverse, Cordy always wanted to believe that she was a "special" person, whether it meant being Queen of Sunnydale High, Emmy Award Winning Actress Cordelia Chase, or Vision Girl. Her desire to be special is, like, her fatal flaw. Cordy wanting to join Hollywood and become a famous actress makes perfect sense because it feeds into her huge ego, love of wealth and rich men, and sense of entitlement.

    Anyway, it was never implied that Cordelia was offering sexual favors for acting jobs. It's just your personal canon that she was. And that's perfectly fine, we all have our personal canons (see above).

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeB
    If anything, Jasmine is the only in-‘verse reason it makes much sense that Cordy wouldn’t have attended UC Sunnydale and continue being a Scooby.
    Nah. Cordy always hated being in Sunnydale ("What kind of moron would ever want to come back here?") and there was no place for her in the Scoobies anymore since she and Xander weren't together.
    Last edited by Andrew S.; 13-12-17 at 10:45 PM.

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