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Thread: Season 7 Finale discussion

  1. #21
    Bad Boy Lover Cori's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Francy View Post
    Obviously I don't really think he has a psychological issue... but maybe a creepy kink LOL Exploring incest as part of a medieval society is good and all, but I object to the way he has done it.

    Powerful dinasties used to marry in the family to keep the power in the family, I would be more than okay with the show showing more of that. Sometimes incest is just creepily incest, like in the case of the Lannister twins....no power strategies there, just two individuals who somehow developed that kind of relationship, which is frowned upon even in the reality of Westeros. I'm also okay with that.
    Yeah I agree when it comes to the Lannisters. Their incest does not serve any purpose, unless it is supposed to tell the reader/viewer from the outset that the Lannisters are evil and creepy.

    However, he said that A Song of Ice and Fire (and consequently GOT) is basically the story of Jon Snow and Daenerys (the Ice and the Fire of the title). They were always destined to meet, fall in love, get together, fight the Night King, unite the Seven Kingdoms, and whatever....but for that to be the case, they didn't have to be related, it didn't need to be incest. Jon could have been a true Stark/King of the North/The Promised Prince/Ice, Dany his opposite from the south/Fire, it would still have been an epic tale without Jon being Dany's nephew. Yet he decided to put the main characters of his saga in an incestuous relationship (without them even knowing it at first), and since it's the main one in the story and can't be ignored, people have to be okay with it in any case, even if they are not. That' not exploring the way incest was a reality in the Middle Ages, which could be done in so many more realistic ways...that's being unnecessarily creepy and controversial for the sake of it.

    Anyway, his books, his story!! I won't lose sleep over it, it's just fiction at the end of the day!
    Actually no, if Jon really is the Prince That Was Promised he has to have Targaryen blood, it says so in the prophecy. From GoT wiki: The prophecy about the Prince That Was Promised said he would be born from the line of House Targaryen - Stannis Baratheon does match this description because his grandmother was a Targaryen, but he was not born at a place of "smoke and salt" (which can be Dragonstone, a volcanic island, i.e. where Dany was born) - he was born in Storm's End.

    So Jon cannot both be a trueborn Stark and the Prince That Was Promised. Some fans are of the opinion that Dany is actually the Princess That Was Promised. As Missandei explained, the word "prince" is gender neutral in High Valeryian and could also mean a woman. And there are other fans who think that the title of the series (A Song of Ice and Fire) applies exclusively to Jon because he is the embodiment of both through his parents.

    If Jon and Dany end up getting married in season 8 (which I guess is a possibility), they could do so because they love each other yes, but also to solidify their power and rebuild the Targaryen dynasty, like the royal dynasties did in the Middle Ages. I don't know, I just find the aunt-nephew incest much less icky than the brother-sister incest. Jon and Dany did not grow up together, they met each other as adults and they had no idea they were related when they had sex. I'm sure when Jon learns of his Targaryen lineage, there will be drama between them and Jon will probably struggle with it more than Dany. However, I do hope that they overcome it. Not that I'm expecting them to have a happy ending, not in this universe, but it'd be nice if they were happy together for like 5 seconds.

  2. #22
    Thread Saviour Francy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cori View Post


    Actually no, if Jon really is the Prince That Was Promised he has to have Targaryen blood, it says so in the prophecy. From GoT wiki: The prophecy about the Prince That Was Promised said he would be born from the line of House Targaryen - Stannis Baratheon does match this description because his grandmother was a Targaryen, but he was not born at a place of "smoke and salt" (which can be Dragonstone, a volcanic island, i.e. where Dany was born) - he was born in Storm's End.

    So Jon cannot both be a trueborn Stark and the Prince That Was Promised. Some fans are of the opinion that Dany is actually the Princess That Was Promised. As Missandei explained, the word "prince" is gender neutral in High Valeryian and could also mean a woman. And there are other fans who think that the title of the series (A Song of Ice and Fire) applies exclusively to Jon because he is the embodiment of both through his parents.
    Because Martin made it so in his story/books. It didn't have to be that way, it's not like the prophecy really exists!! The prophecy could have been anything, the prince that was promised could have been from any House, Jon Stark and Dany Targaryen could have competed fo the role along with other candidates, and we could have not known until the very end who it was (instead of being telegraphed from the very beginning); hell, there could have been no prince that was promised.

    My whole point is that it didn't have to be incest, Martin could have come up with anything. Yet, he based his whole saga on an incest (after having featured prominently other instances of incest in the story). Too much. And again, it's his story, so he can do it the way he likes.... but I think, while a lot of people are willing to accept it because it's fiction, it is also detrimental to a lot of other people's enjoyment of the story. I can't count the amount of comments saying that the incest part makes them squirm a bit (including me, incest is not something I'm very capable of ignoring and get past). It's a weird choice to make if you want to have your audience get behind the fated couple your epic saga is focused on.

    I don't think Jon and Dany will bith finish the show alive, since Martin described the ending as "bittersweet". I wonder if there will be any character alive at the end!! LOL

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    Slayer TimeTravellingBunny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cori View Post
    Yeah I agree when it comes to the Lannisters. Their incest does not serve any purpose, unless it is supposed to tell the reader/viewer from the outset that the Lannisters are evil and creepy.
    Let me barge in since the conversation seems to now include ASOAIF, rather than the show, which I've stopped watching in early season 5 (though I'm still aware of what is going on and have seen occasional clips). The twincest is, in the books, supposed to be an obviously unhealthy relationship that's reflective of Cersei's and Jaime's immaturity and narcissism (especially Cersei's narcissism). They both think at various points that they are the same person and that the other one is who they would be if they were born of the opposite sex. Ironically, we see more and more that this is not true and that they are actually quite different people, with different priorities in life, and they drift apart as the story goes on.

    Book Jaime's arc since he gets POV in the third book (starting with his journey with Brienne and his loss of hand) is all about starting to question his life and his choices, and by the end of book 4, he has pretty much lost his illusions about his relationship with Cersei and pretty much broken up with her. (I have no idea what the hell the show has been doing with him since the end of season 3.) It's the mark of the growth of his character. Jaime starts giving the priority again to his desire to be a true knight and have honor, something that was in him since his teenage years at least, but got stifled due to his experiences with Aerys and the cynicism he developed as a result. At the same time, no doubt that a part of his gradual falling out of love with Cersei is the fact he's obviously been falling for Brienne (even though he is not aware of it), but Brienne and Cersei stand for two different roads he could take in life, and his feelings for Brienne are linked to his desire to be a true knight (as she has the idealism he has lost, and is actually the true knight he wanted to be*, even though she has never officially been knighted) and are completely different than the unhealthy obsession with Cersei, which was largely based on romantic delusions.

    *I'm talking about book Brienne - not show Brienne, who's an a$$hole/killing machine.

    Cersei, on the other hand, was always less invested in their relationship (romance is second or third for her as priority, after power and her children), but she has been unable to grow positively, and has instead been having a negative character development - and she's still locked in the narcissitic view of Jaime as her male half rather than a separate person, which is why Jaime's new attitude will probably be a real shock to her (she has already gone somewhat cold to him when she saw that he had both stopped being the male ideal she imagined him as, after he lost his hand, and that he had started to oppose and contradict her and have different views, which she did not expect). Cersei is a total narcissist and has a huge problem with internalized misogyny. She despises women and hates that she is a woman, because if she were a man, she would be able to directly hold power and use a more direct approach to getting what she wants. She thinks that she has to seduce men and use sex to get what she wants, but at the same time she hates it - she'd love to be a man and be able to be her father's heir and a ruler in her own right, and to use a sword and direct violence to solve her problems, like Jaime can do. (Her first instinct is always to go for violence, but she has to order, bribe or manipulate men into doing it, instead of doing it herself.) So the reason she is 'in love' with Jaime, and why he was the only person she ever enjoyed having sex with (that's what we know in books from her own POV) is that she sees him as what she would like to be, and what she thinks she could have been if she had been born as a man. And when Jaime starts acting like his own person and not an extension of her, it's a huge shock to her.

    Of course, the shock factor of the twincest is also important for the story - it makes the Lannister secret a lot more shocking than mere adultery/bastardy (even though the latter would be enough to get them both arrested and convicted for treason in a society like Westeros). GRRM likes to use taboos and breaking of taboos as a plot point and a way for the society he describes to be challenged. Incest is one of those, another one is kinslaying (killing your closest family members), and yet another one is breaking the guest right. The latter two are the two biggest taboos of the Westerosi society, which is why events like the Red Wedding or Tywin's murder at Tyrion's hands get so much more weight. (The show screwed this up - season 6 had people committing kinslaying left and right without anyone caring. This does not happen in the books. It's heavily implied that Euron had Balon murdered, but he did it by hiring a Faceless Man and made sure he was not present, so it cannot be directly traced to him. Euron is a person who intentionally breaks all the taboos in the books, but he's not an idiot to openly admit he murdered his brother, and if he did, the Ironborn would never follow him. It's also implied that Ramsay poisoned his legitimate brother Domeric (in the past, before he is even introduced), but again, Ramsay is a person who breaks taboos, but even he is not an idiot to admit that. The fear of being a kinslayer and cursed by 'gods and men' is also what kept Tywin and Cersei from killing Tyrion and what kept Balon and Victarion (another one of Balon's brothers who was cut from the show, with most of his plot being weirdly given to Yara, who is a strange amalgam of two completely different characters, Theon's sister Asha and his uncle Victarion) from killing or executing Euron.

    And the breaking of guest right is HUGE in the books - it may not seem like a big deal to us at first, but it's what their society is based on: you can't have negotiations or make alliances or trust people to make alliances with, if they do things like murder envoys and, especially, murder their guests at weddings etc. This is why the Red Wedding is so shocking, why the Freys are so despised in Westeros, why there is a big movement in the Riverlands to avenge the RW in the books, and it's a part of the reason why the entire North in the books despises the Boltons and is secretly trying to help the Starks (the other reason is that the North genuinely loved and respected Ned Stark and are still ready to fight for his memory - unlike Tywin Lannister: the moment he dies, his legacy crumbles, because his reputation was based on fear rather than love and respect) - something else the show totally botched.

    No, GRRM does not introduce such plot points to be 'historically accurate' - especially since they are not. There was no incest or incest babies in the story of Wars of the Roses; and incest closer than that of first cousins was a taboo in England (avuncular marriages were accepted among some of the continental nobility, but sibling incest was a big taboo in Europe, always). The Targaryens seem more inspired by the ancient Egyptian dynasties that practiced sibling incest to retain 'pure blood'. The closest European analogue would be the Habsburgs (not from England, and not medieval), who were incredibly inbred, but they were doing it for political reasons, not any 'blood purity'. Also, the Wars of the Roses were very different from the War of the Five Kings: it was more like a series of big battles that happened at times, and a lot of political tension and unrest in between (plus a big period of peace that lasted for years after Edward IV won and did away with the Lancasters in 1471 - which is ignored only because the Tudor propaganda later did its best to convince people that there were constant wars for 30 years and that it was only Henry Tudor's angelic intervention that resolved things, when in fact, he used the opportunity of York in-fighting and re-started a conflict that had been finished/dormant for years), which involved heavily all the English nobility and their retainers, but barely even touched on the civilian population. The War of the Five Kings, on the other hand, was incredibly devastating for the civilians and smallfolk - this is a huge theme in the books in particular - so it's more like the 30 Years War, or many of the modern wars of the 20th century. GRRM was interested in making a statement about war and how it affects people, rather than in recreating history.
    Last edited by TimeTravellingBunny; 02-09-17 at 01:10 PM.
    You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

  4. #24
    Bad Boy Lover Cori's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Francy View Post
    Because Martin made it so in his story/books. It didn't have to be that way, it's not like the prophecy really exists!! The prophecy could have been anything, the prince that was promised could have been from any House, Jon Stark and Dany Targaryen could have competed fo the role along with other candidates, and we could have not known until the very end who it was (instead of being telegraphed from the very beginning); hell, there could have been no prince that was promised.
    Okay fair enough.

    My whole point is that it didn't have to be incest, Martin could have come up with anything. Yet, he based his whole saga on an incest (after having featured prominently other instances of incest in the story). Too much. And again, it's his story, so he can do it the way he likes.... but I think, while a lot of people are willing to accept it because it's fiction, it is also detrimental to a lot of other people's enjoyment of the story. I can't count the amount of comments saying that the incest part makes them squirm a bit (including me, incest is not something I'm very capable of ignoring and get past). It's a weird choice to make if you want to have your audience get behind the fated couple your epic saga is focused on.
    See for me, it's D&D not even bothering to try to get Jaime's redemption arc right, putting stuff into the show that was not in the books (e.g. Ramsay raping Sansa or Jaime raping Cersei) or the endless hours of torture porn Theon suffered at the hands of Ramsay that diminish my enjoyment of the show and not incest, but that's just me. GRRM has always wanted to subvert conventional fantasy tropes, that's why I believe he is making his OTP (Jon and Dany) not be your typical hero and heroine who will live happily ever after but gives their love story an edge, a dark twist that you wouldn't get in a conventional fantasy story.

    I don't think Jon and Dany will bith finish the show alive, since Martin described the ending as "bittersweet". I wonder if there will be any character alive at the end!! LOL
    True dat! Although he did say "bittersweet" so maybe some characters will still be alive, probably characters that I don't care about like Sam and Gilly. GRRM is evil like that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cori View Post
    Okay fair enough.



    See for me, it's D&D not even bothering to try to get Jaime's redemption arc right, putting stuff into the show that was not in the books (e.g. Ramsay raping Sansa or Jaime raping Cersei) or the endless hours of torture porn Theon suffered at the hands of Ramsay that diminish my enjoyment of the show and not incest, but that's just me. GRRM has always wanted to subvert conventional fantasy tropes, that's why I believe he is making his OTP (Jon and Dany) not be your typical hero and heroine who will live happily ever after but gives their love story an edge, a dark twist that you wouldn't get in a conventional fantasy story.



    True dat! Although he did say "bittersweet" so maybe some characters will still be alive, probably characters that I don't care about like Sam and Gilly. GRRM is evil like that.
    GRRM is a romantic at core, and he loves fantasy, but he doesn't like to have conventional heroes and conventional romances. I'm sure Jon/Dany will happen in the books as it's been foreshadowed since book 2, but I'm sure it will be much better done and more interesting (especially as the book versions of those two characters are way more interesting than their show counterparts). When you look at the other major potential romances that have been set up in the books - Jaime/Brienne,
    Spoiler:
    Sansa/Sandor
    and maybe Arya/Gendry - none of them are conventional or expected, especially not the former two (Martin's takes on the Beauty and the Beast trope, which he loves - of course, he was even a writer for the 1980s BatB TV show).

    And I'm sure that several of the main characters will survive the ending - though I don't think Jon or Dany will be among them (and most certainly not both Jon and Dany).
    You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

  7. #26
    Thread Saviour Francy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cori View Post



    See for me, it's D&D not even bothering to try to get Jaime's redemption arc right, putting stuff into the show that was not in the books (e.g. Ramsay raping Sansa or Jaime raping Cersei) or the endless hours of torture porn Theon suffered at the hands of Ramsay that diminish my enjoyment of the show and not incest, but that's just me. GRRM has always wanted to subvert conventional fantasy tropes, that's why I believe he is making his OTP (Jon and Dany) not be your typical hero and heroine who will live happily ever after but gives their love story an edge, a dark twist that you wouldn't get in a conventional fantasy story.
    I don't read the books (I tried, but I couldn't get into them... I don't like fantasy books, never been able to read them, while strangely enough I LOVE fantasy shows. I want to try again once the show is over, though) so for now the books/show differences don't bother me. I can only base myself on the show (and I do agree that the writing is often flawed, I'm not denying that).

    I'm all for subverting conventional fantasy tropes, I love subverting tropes, but there are other ways to do that and to give the unconventional heroes/pairing an edge... it doesn't have to be incest, I find it distasteful. What can I say, it might be my own limitations, but it is what it is. I'm not a fan. Also, apart from the incest, I don't find that Jon/Dany subverts any real trope... they are both young, attractive people who are of noble birth and the legitimate pretenders to the throne and who have been hinted from the start to be destined to get together at some point. It would be way more subversive if Dany unexpectedly fell for, say, Tyrion, or Jon for Shireen, just to make a couple of examples. Jon/Dany is as telegraphed and stereotypical in most aspects as it gets. I suppose if they don't live happily everafter then it will be a little less conventional.


    True dat! Although he did say "bittersweet" so maybe some characters will still be alive, probably characters that I don't care about like Sam and Gilly. GRRM is evil like that.
    I want Sam and Gilly to survive!! The characters I want to survive the show are Sansa, Tyrion, Sam, Gilly (now that I've said it, watch all of them getting killed off mercilessly LOL). I like also a lot of other characters, but I would be more ok with them dying
    Last edited by Francy; 03-09-17 at 10:21 AM.

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    IMO it sucked. Nothing good happened this season. It sucked.

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