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Thread: Buffy # 20 Issue Discussion Thread(Full Spoilers)

  1. #21
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    Just finished reading the issue. Most of it has already been spoiled so I'll just note those things that jumped out at me.

    1: Spike takes showers. That just seems kind of weird to me.

    2: Anya isn't actually Anya. Whatever it is that has her likeness is being used by some behind the scenes entity to manipulate Xander and put him in a vulnerable state, probably to get at Buffy. As of the issues end, Xander is still the only one who knows about not-Anya, although Giles and the detective did come close to realizing something was up.

    I'm intrigued to see where this will end up going. I just hope we won't get a repeat of season 9 with Xander betraying Buffy.
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  2. #22
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    Pointman:

    1: Spike takes showers. That just seems kind of weird to me.
    Hmm - can't remember seeing Spike actually take a shower in the series - but there are clues that he does. Doesn't Xander complain about Spike leaving wet towels in the bathroom and call dibs on the shower first in Season Seven? And doesn't Buffy complain that Spike-in-the-basement smells awful because he's NOT taking showers - which implies that Spike had taken showers in the past. Spike's got a shower in his room on the bugship in Season Eight. And we see him naked with Harmony in the shower in Angel and Faith Season Nine.

    Good question, though. I'd say that eye-penciled and peroxided Spike seems WAY too vain to just leave demon gunk on his hair and body after fighting. Vamps may not smell themselves - no bacteria - but they could still smell like other demons or people - if Spike and Angel use hair products, I imagine they shower as well to remove putrid smells from kills for the benefit of their human companions. I think we also see Harmony brushing her teeth and showering in Angel Season Five.

    I know Angel does several times in his own series.

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  4. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by American Aurora View Post
    Pointman:



    Hmm - can't remember seeing Spike actually take a shower in the series - but there are clues that he does. Doesn't Xander complain about Spike leaving wet towels in the bathroom and call dibs on the shower first in Season Seven? And doesn't Buffy complain that Spike-in-the-basement smells awful because he's NOT taking showers - which implies that Spike had taken showers in the past. Spike's got a shower in his room on the bugship in Season Eight. And we see him naked with Harmony in the shower in Angel and Faith Season Nine.

    Good question, though. I'd say that eye-penciled and peroxided Spike seems WAY too vain to just leave demon gunk on his hair and body after fighting. Vamps may not smell themselves - no bacteria - but they could still smell like other demons or people - if Spike and Angel use hair products, I imagine they shower as well to remove putrid smells from kills for the benefit of their human companions. I think we also see Harmony brushing her teeth and showering in Angel Season Five.

    I know Angel does several times in his own series.
    I guess its just that he wanted to take a hot shower that I find odd. I get wanting to stay clean, but his body temp is lukewarm at best. What benefit would he get from a hot shower? And Now I realize I have spent way too much time talking about Spike in the shower.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PointMan View Post
    I guess its just that he wanted to take a hot shower that I find odd. I get wanting to stay clean, but his body temp is lukewarm at best. What benefit would he get from a hot shower? And Now I realize I have spent way too much time talking about Spike in the shower.
    Heh! Yes, this seems odd to me too. Why wouldn't he take showers? What would he do to keep clean instead?

    But enough of this.

    I thought it was a good issue. The stuff with Ghost Anya who isn't was very interesting. I wonder who she was talking to in the cave? My money's on either D'Hoffryn, because he's being way too nice and reasonable about what's written in the Book, or the Sculptor, who might have promised to make Ghost Anya a new body.

    As for the Buffy/Spike parts, while they won't satisfy anyone who wants to see Spike consigned to the outer darkness forever because of the attempted rape, I thought it was interesting, as it gave us Buffy's POV on what happened for the first time (which is pretty shocking when you think about it - that it's the first time, I mean, and yet more evidence, IMO, that Joss/Marti and co were stupid ever to go there in the first place), while also putting it in its place as only one of a long string of awful things that have happened to Buffy (and far from the worst of those) and which she has to cope with daily. I only wish this issue had taken place before the crossover with Angel. There might (probably not, but there might) have been more depth to the way Buffy dealt with her first meeting with Angel post-Twilight than just 'it wasn't you' and 'oh it's okay that you killed Giles because you brought him back.'

    I also like that Spike took on board at once that Buffy was finding his guilt-tripping unhelpful, and that what he should be doing in the circumstances is asking her how he can help. I think that was a great step forward for him.

    I do think the set-up in the bathroom was contrived, though. Obviously, they wanted to hark back to SR, but given that Spike's face in the first scene at the women's shelter makes it pretty clear he 's all too aware what Buffy must be thinking about, I find it hard to believe he'd just walk in on her like that.

    I don't know if I'm the only person who is disappointed Ghost Anya isn't the real Anya, but I am. I love the character and would gladly have had her back.
    Last edited by Morphia; 21-10-15 at 09:38 AM.

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    Spike showering just seems logical, he is going to get grubby as has been said. As for the temperature, firstly I don't think you would always get as clean in cold water and I think he was looking to join Buffy and I'm sure she wouldn't have wanted to stay in there if the water ran cold.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morphia View Post
    I also like that Spike took on board at once that Buffy was finding his guilt-tripping unhelpful, and that what he should be doing in the circumstances is asking her how he can help. I think that was a great step forward for him.
    My only uncertainty with the way the conversation went between Spike and Buffy is that, whilst I agree that Buffy was the victim of the attack and Spike shouldn't let his guilt press her into reassuring him when she may need to not focus on it at that moment, it is also understandable that Spike might need support around this too. Buffy seeing it being about her, as the victim, is right. But souled!Spike wouldn't have attacked her, something that she knows of course and is part of why she is able to be with him now, but that means that it must also be a difficult memory for him too in a way that feels too narrow to just call guilt as it must also be very personally upsetting. I'm not saying Buffy should be putting her own feelings about what happened to one side to support Spike through dealing with having done that to her, not at all. I don't think she would be the right person necessarily and in the circumstances her not even considering it is totally understandable. But even if he can reason that he wouldn't have attacked her souled, him needing some support, beyond just reassurance over his sense of guilt, but as something he did that he wouldn't have ever chosen to do, isn't unfathomable. It must be difficult for both Angel and Spike to deal with the things they have done and feeling guilt over them but also as they wouldn't, as they are now, have done them, well it must be very distressing. It could just be that their ongoing relationships (not even romantically considered) are what supports this for them of course and that that is enough, I don't know. It could be where Dylan comes in too I suppose, but I'm not sure it will ever be covered as more than just guilt. But the way they covered Buffy's point of view on it, I did think made sense.

    I do think the set-up in the bathroom was contrived, though. Obviously, they wanted to hark back to SR, but given that Spike's face in the first scene at the women's shelter makes it pretty clear he 's all too aware what Buffy must be thinking about, I find it hard to believe he'd just walk in on her like that.
    I think the way that they played the scene with Spike just walking into the bathroom talking about the case made it seem like this was possibly a norm for them and that may be why that overrode wondering if it would trigger anything for Buffy.

    I don't know if I'm the only person who is disappointed Ghost Anya isn't the real Anya, but I am. I love the character and would gladly have had her back.
    I suspect this was what Levens was saying we would get some light on but that people might hate her for. I think the Anya/Xander stuff is pretty interesting and am also very suspicious of D'Hoffryn.

    EDIT: The art on Spike was still not great, I just don't like ML's version of him and his big nose and huge clown hands/feet. I also noted that his shirt changed colour after he burst through the window.
    Last edited by Stoney; 21-10-15 at 10:36 AM.

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    I agree that Spike needs someone to discuss his feelings of guilt with and that the person should not be Buffy.

    Maybe he should follow Xander's example and have a chat with Dr Mike?

    I really can't see him doing so with Dylan, who he hardly knows. But then I still can't see what purpose she can possibly serve in the story, except as a catalyst to break up Spike and Buffy, and it's getting pretty late in the day to even use her as that, given that she's had no character development whatsoever.

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    Well we know from the solicits that he is going to discuss his relationship pattern with someone that is likely to be Dylan (I've assumed). It depends how maudlin he is at the time as to how much he might say and arguably is more likely to do so with someone separate from his 'real' life and the people he lives with. I suppose that is how it works with seeing professionals. But yes, I wouldn't expect that necessarily to go into how he feels about his past anyway in terms of guilt and his souled upset over those actions, or at least not deeply.

    I think if Dylan really throws a spanner in the works with Buffy/Spike it will come from prompting Spike to think about some aspect of himself that he isn't satisfied with that he feels he needs to be out of the relationship to deal with. So far Buffy and Spike have been working through things that have come up but repeatedly how Spike feels about himself/the issues isn't the focus and that feels deliberate. As a counter love interest I can't see Spike leaving Buffy for Dylan but she could be an ongoing background pressure (with or without them taking a break for his own developmental crisis) if she sticks around. This lass managed to astoundingly stalk him all the way to a city she had no reason to connect him to, that is pretty determined so her seeing he is in a relationship and leaving also seems unlikely.
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    I won't have my copy until later in the week so I'm just going off what you guys are saying at this point.But I actually really like that it sounds like that Anya isn't the real Anya.As I've mentioned many times in the past,I don't really care for how many characters have died and been brought back so on the surface without having read the issue yet but I love the sound of this Anya twist.Very intrigued by the sounds of this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stoney View Post
    Well we know from the solicits that he is going to discuss his relationship pattern with someone that is likely to be Dylan (I've assumed). It depends how maudlin he is at the time as to how much he might say and arguably is more likely to do so with someone separate from his 'real' life and the people he lives with. I suppose that is how it works with seeing professionals. But yes, I wouldn't expect that necessarily to go into how he feels about his past anyway in terms of guilt and his souled upset over those actions, or at least not deeply.

    I think if Dylan really throws a spanner in the works with Buffy/Spike it will come from prompting Spike to think about some aspect of himself that he isn't satisfied with that he feels he needs to be out of the relationship to deal with. So far Buffy and Spike have been working through things that have come up but repeatedly how Spike feels about himself/the issues isn't the focus and that feels deliberate. As a counter love interest I can't see Spike leaving Buffy for Dylan but she could be an ongoing background pressure (with or without them taking a break for his own developmental crisis) if she sticks around. This lass managed to astoundingly stalk him all the way to a city she had no reason to connect him to, that is pretty determined so her seeing he is in a relationship and leaving also seems unlikely.
    Agreed. However, Gage is going to have to do a very good job with fleshing out this character very quickly to make her believeable as anything at all. She's just a Mrs Marsters lookalike cypher at this point.

    Must admit, I assumed the person Spike was going to have this relationship pattern discussion with was going to be Satsu.

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    Ah could be Satsu I suppose, interesting thought.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Morphia View Post
    Agreed. However, Gage is going to have to do a very good job with fleshing out this character very quickly to make her believeable as anything at all. She's just a Mrs Marsters lookalike cypher at this point.

    Must admit, I assumed the person Spike was going to have this relationship pattern discussion with was going to be Satsu.
    It's supposed to be an old friend, isn't it? The only person who would make sense is Clem. He's the only only character ever established as such for Spike that I can think of. Plus both he and Harmony come back in the next couple issues, I believe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HardlyThere View Post
    It's supposed to be an old friend, isn't it? The only person who would make sense is Clem. He's the only only character ever established as such for Spike that I can think of. Plus both he and Harmony come back in the next couple issues, I believe.
    It is supposed to be 'an old friend.' It doesn't necessarily have to be Spike's old friend, though.

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    I'd forgotten about the 'old friend' part. It would be a stretch to describe Dylan as that but as they have said ITL isn't canon and it doesn't matter if people get the link or not, they can present their history as they want to here and now. But I'd agree it wouldn't apply to Satsu and I do think it sounds as if it would be a friend of Spike's. That is #22 and Harmony is around for the demon fighting the previous issue, so I can see Clem is also a good guess. I doubt they would have been obtuse about it though if it was him. I'm still thinking Dylan as it says it is unknown to Buffy and I think that plays up the love interest aspect.

    If it was D'Hoffryn playing the Anya card it could make sense because he knew Anya really well so could easily 'create' her. But the cave setting seems to fit the trio of baddies better, as does the promise of a body as Morphia says.

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    I would read it but I just remembered they don't display for crap on iPhone. So Non!Anya confirmed explicitly, or supposition based on secret doing and ulterior motive?

    I don't suppose Spike should need to shower unless he actually gets something on him he wants off. He should have no BO, no shedding of skin cells, etc. The reasons human beings would shower on a regular basis don't really apply to him. Theoretically he would just need a spray with sanitizer and wiped down from time to time, like a kitchen counter, for disinfection. It is probably just a luxury or affectation. Actually as the only vampire who appears to be capable of drowning, Spike had less reason than most to risk water

    I would love for Satsu to show up, but mostly if it was to read Buffy all the riot acts there are or ever were. She was an unintentional audience stand-in when she reacted to spacefrak by just ejecting.

    It can't be bad news for Xander fans that D'Hoffryn or forces unknown are targeting him for some reason. "A" Plot relevance ahoy!

    I will have more insight when I get to read it instead of just reacting to your posts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stoney View Post
    I'd forgotten about the 'old friend' part. It would be a stretch to describe Dylan as that but as they have said ITL isn't canon and it doesn't matter if people get the link or not, they can present their history as they want to here and now. But I'd agree it wouldn't apply to Satsu and I do think it sounds as if it would be a friend of Spike's. That is #22 and Harmony is around for the demon fighting the previous issue, so I can see Clem is also a good guess. I doubt they would have been obtuse about it though if it was him. I'm still thinking Dylan as it says it is unknown to Buffy and I think that plays up the love interest aspect.

    If it was D'Hoffryn playing the Anya card it could make sense because he knew Anya really well so could easily 'create' her. But the cave setting seems to fit the trio of baddies better, as does the promise of a body as Morphia says.
    If ITL isn't canon, it would make Dylan even less likely. They could have been playing it low about it being Clem because DH seems to have this idea Harmony and Clem are landmark dun-dun-dun characters.

    Sculptor makes the most sense since he can make a body and lives in a cave. That said, he's never been shown to have an ability to make whatever it is Anya is supposed to be. He makes mindless meat puppets. If Anya's soul is at rest, then it's not Anya in any shape or form, yet has all the memories of Anya. D'hoffryn on the other hand has been acting suspicious--like how he described Anya to Xander--and can do all sorts of things and he would have access to the information.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KingofCretins View Post
    So Non!Anya confirmed explicitly, or supposition based on secret doing and ulterior motive?
    A psychic they performed the exorcism on said Anya Jenkins was at peace and the presence that thought it was her wasn't. But they had established that the psychic was out of her depth and she didn't seem consciously speaking so it could have been a manipulation. When Anya asks the entity behind the scenes that we don't see in a 'I'm not her am I' way it asks if it matters, that she will be just as real as Anya was when this is over. So no, not explicit I don't think, there is wiggle room still.

    Actually as the only vampire who appears to be capable of drowning, Spike had less reason than most to risk water


    It can't be bad news for Xander fans that D'Hoffryn or forces unknown are targeting him for some reason. "A" Plot relevance ahoy!
    I agree and I wonder if it will pull back to the book, as they want him susceptible to suggestion??

    Quote Originally Posted by HardlyThere View Post
    If ITL isn't canon, it would make Dylan even less likely.
    It isn't canon. Joss kept his name off it and when asked they stated that it wasn't canon in the letters a few issues back. But Dylan is going to be used and has appeared, they just aren't bothered about whether people know where she came from, they aren't missing out if they don't get the connection, I think was how it was phrased.

    They could have been playing it low about it being Clem because DH seems to have this idea Harmony and Clem are landmark dun-dun-dun characters.
    I just don't 'get' Harmony and Clem, I've never thought they work together personally. But as we know they, or at least Harmony, is around in the previous issue it seems unlikely they would try to hide Clem. It could just be an attempt to be less detailed in the solicits though I suppose.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stoney View Post

    I just don't 'get' Harmony and Clem, I've never thought they work together personally. But as we know they, or at least Harmony, is around in the previous issue it seems unlikely they would try to hide Clem. It could just be an attempt to be less detailed in the solicits though I suppose.
    It's just I don't think the answer has ever not been the obvious one when it comes to DH, whether it's Rack or Mother Superior or Angel. Like how it's probably Sculptor in the cave. There are more interesting beings it could be, like D'Hoffryn or Lurky, but the answer has never not been the obvious one so far.

    That said, I did not think they'd do Spuffy or something at least dealing with the AR. Perhaps they will surprise.

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    Well, having read it, the mystery of why Spike wanted to take a shower has been settled for me; it's much the same reason I imagine most heterosexual men of the Buffyverse wouldn't have minded a shower; Buffy was naked and wet inside the shower.

    Thought her kicking him was over the top, and seemed if anything staged so she could "get hers back" with regard to "painful sink impact". It went about as least awfully as I could have contrived it to go if they had to get into it, but the fact remains that, as surmised, it was mostly brought up so that they could point to this issue and say "this is when that stopped hanging over the relationship as a valid point of discussion".

    Xander not confronting "Anya" is an interesting moment for me. It's very much Wesley in "Shells" to be honest. Because I look like her? / Yes. He's lonely enough that this companion, this simulacrum, suffices just because comfort and because familiarity, so long as she poses no obvious or immediate threat. Also interesting angle to play with "Anya", the existential crisis of her identity and authenticity.

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    http://www.geekedoutnation.com/comic...-season-10-20/

    Comic Book Review: Buffy The Vampire Slayer Season 10 #20

    by Jideobi Odunze



    Back to work for Buffy and the gang in this new story arc. They dealt with Archaeus, Buffy and Dawn dealt with personal issues that needed to be addressed one last time, and Giles as well considering being a child again is no easy task despite the second chance at life.

    Now this issue does come as a surprise when it is almost forgotten that Anya’s is still tied to Xander. Pretty much the only loose threat that had been on and off approached throughout season 10. Better now than never to address the problem that is her current situation as it would have been a bit more awkward later on realizing that this was a thing that continued to go unnoticed. In Buffy The Vampire Slayer Season 10 #20, Xander and Giles work on an exorcism that stirs up some questions about Ghost Anya.

    Not to say that this brought a conclusion to that, but just the fact that Anya’s presence is still a thing means that there will be more to look forward to as this mystery progresses. It’s the focus that Xander needs without the pity party he throws himself over losing Dawn.

    Buffy and Spike’s case is a memorable story that makes this issue a must read for season 10. Gage and Levens do an excellent job capturing this sensitive topic which is of course made unique to what Buffy and Spike are used to handling. There are many ways in which Buffy season 10 is respectable for the lessons they teach about things we relate to, though this right here stands above all of that. Especially when it comes to a woman being compelled into something sensual which she did not willingly consent to. When this topic has made so many butt heads over the rights and wrongs of approaching this, Gage does so with a breath of fresh air. A case Buffy needs to tackle because she still has to deal with those feelings she can share from back when Spike was evil. Another hurdle as well for their relationship with Buffy conflicted over those feelings.

    This incubus demon is a great villain not for his threat, but for what he represents. What he stands for that needed to be addressed and broken down. The things Jean says about guys like the incubus and what true strength means in the face of them is empowering. These are the things any person needs to hear when they are a victim, and need to be reminded that they can pick themselves up.

    This issue of Buffy brings us back to Megan Levens on art. Her art style worked perfectly for this issue because she is very good at bringing forth those emotions that match the tone of the story. To see those moments of vulnerability surface for Buffy when having to confront memories of Spike trying to force himself on her. The pain of Jean as she went through feeling like the victim and somehow still comes off a the strongest character. Xander as well put into the same situation where he doesn’t know how to deal with those things in his life he can’t fix between his relationship with Dawn and helping Anya’s ghost move on. That aside it was nice to see Anya again. A little weird to see her as perky as she was about fighting supernatural forces considering the current circumstances, though something you overlook if not only because the twist to her apparent presence.

    Buffy The Vampire Slayer Season 10 #20 aside from that one question about Anya is perfect for everything else. The twist about Anya’s ghost, the subject of rape, and the emotional weight of it all which makes season 10 so beautifully written.

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    I really liked this issue. I agree that it felt like an episode of the show. It was a breath of fresh air for me after being utterly bored by the last several issues.

    I agree the bathroom scene was contrived. They did the easy set up with that one. I find Spike's red pants weirder than that he takes a shower. If he's really in the habit of joining her in the shower, why the big kick? And if he's not, why would he think that's a good idea today of all days after meeting with a rape victim considering their history in bathrooms. I don't think he's that obtuse, especially considering the look he was giving Buffy earlier. I didn't like his guilt trip on Buffy (how dare she put on a robe before checking him for ouchies?) and I couldn't tell if he was being serious or sarcastic when he's talking about his soul being a "new ball game." That was my least favorite scene.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stoney
    The art on Spike was still not great, I just don't like ML's version of him and his big nose and huge clown hands/feet. I also noted that his shirt changed colour after he burst through the window.
    Agreed! I really liked Buffy's look in this issue, from the arm muscles (SMG did not have, but it feels right to me) to the hairstyle (not weird and "trendy" yay), it really felt like her. Her voice was good, too. Spike, on the other hand, looked hideous, especially in vamp face. Yeesh. And his clothes were weird.

    I really liked Buffy's conversation with the woman from the center, and I loved her conversation with Spike at the end. I loved her calling him out on making it all about him by constantly apologizing. And he took that advice seriously and agreed to just give her what she needs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morphia
    I agree that Spike needs someone to discuss his feelings of guilt with and that the person should not be Buffy.
    I'm with you on this one. You "Comfort IN, Dump OUT!" She is at the center of this issue and he needs to be supportive only. I would love to see him discuss his issues and guilt with Dr. Mike or Clem, though (get out of here, Dylan!).

    I really liked the scene where they take out the incubus. Exposing the bastards and taking their power away, right on. They're extending the metaphor between vampire/demon attack and sexual assault from all the way back in Season 1. For once I am happy about "new rules"!

    I actually LOVE the reveal with Anya. We get to enjoy Anya again without having another resurrection that takes away the meaning of her death, and without bringing her back permanently and preventing Xander from moving on. Whoever/whatever is posing as Anya seems to be innocent in all this and hopefully can be rescued. And I can't wait to see Xander dealing with his new knowledge that its not her. And I'm nervous for what she might do to hurt him in the meantime, and can't wait to see the reveal of the person who's using her. I'm just really pleased, and this issue has me eagerly awaiting the next installment!
    Last edited by kimothyschma; 21-10-15 at 06:19 PM. Reason: added link

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