View Poll Results: Do you consider Season 10 canon?

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Thread: Do you consider Season 10 canon?

  1. #1
    Slayer MikeB's Avatar
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    Default Do you consider Season 10 canon?

    THE 3 REASONS I CONSIDER SEASON 10 IS NOT ACTUALLY CANON:


    1.) Joss Whedon at the 2015 San Diego Comic Con Joss Whedon Panel ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9201iu1KC7I ) in my opinion essentially stated that Season 10 is Dark Horse's version/continuation of the Buffyverse and is not actually part of the Whedonverse. In my opinion, he doesn’t imply it is still part of the Whedonverse. He makes no mention of approving everything in it. If anything, that 5-year thing can easily dismiss all of Season 9 as well.

    2.) This SA Q&A http://slayalive.com/showthread.php/...y-Season-10-18 didn't include (in my opinion) a single mention of Joss as currently relates to Season 10.

    3.) Too much of Season 10 doesn’t makes sense and goes against previously established canon.



    JOSS WHEDON’S INVOLVEMENT AND APPROVAL IS IMPORTANT:


    BtVS canon supersedes AtS canon whenever something absolutely contradicts something. This isn’t a problem regarding TV AtS as the biggest glaring things are Angel’s past and Darla’s AtS s2 strength and power. Those easily can be explained. Angel’s a liar and wanted the Scoobies to believe he was good since being cursed. Darla was sired by Drusilla and Darla was a tool for Jasmine.

    Joss Whedon was involved throughout BtVS S8 and he co-wrote and gave notes on the Issues Scott Allie helped write.

    Joss Whedon chose Andrew Chambliss to write BtVS S9. Joss seems to have been involved throughout, though to a lesser extent than in BtVS S8. Joss was much less involved in A&F S9 than he was in BtVS S9. Again, BtVS canon supersedes A&F canon.

    It’s hard to say how involved Joss was with BtVS S9: Willow: Wonderland and how involved he was in BtVS S9: Spike: A Dark Place.

    -- The Spike one is especially a problem given how he acts in A&F S9 doesn’t fit with BtVS S9: Spike and I remember Christos Gage was writing Spike in A&F S9 before BtVS S9: Spike was even finished being written; nevertheless, again, BtVS canon supersedes A&F canon.

    The biggest problem with A&F S9 is clearly how Spike is in A&F S9. But that maybe even be explained as Whistler’s doing.


    * Joss Whedon wrote Angel: Long Night’s Journey and I don’t recall Joss ever merely suggesting it wasn’t canon.


    * There’s this post of mine: http://www.buffyforums.net/forums/sh...l=1#post704254 regarding [i] Spike & Dru: “Paint the Town Red”. Included in that is my remembering Joss Whedon giving canon status to Douglas Petrie’s Ring of Fire .


    * Joss Whedon did a VERY detailed outline for AtF and it seems a lot of the ‘extra’ Issues Brian Lynch wrote contains stuff in that outline. I remember Joss Whedon came up with Spider, he came up with Spike living in the Playboy mansion, etc. I remember we were told that IDW’s Spike was going to be canon. I remember we were told Joss Whedon looked over and approved all of the Willow stuff. Yet some like to dismiss all the clear Spike/Drusilla stuff, the Spike/Beck stuff, Beck herself, etc. I remember we were told Illyria: Haunted was going to be canon. Illyria in BtVS S9 is her full-powered self.

    Joss Whedon it seems worked on AtF many times more in total than he’s worked on Season 10. Joss apparently approved of things in the IDW Spike series. Joss Whedon chose Brian Lynch to write AtF and to write the IDW Spike series.

    Nonetheless, my point regards debate. Nothing in the IDW stuff that could be canon contradicts previously established canon, contradicts anything in the TV Buffyverse, contradicts anything in BtVS S8, and contradicts anything in Season 9. The worse offenders I point out such as apparently Maria Harley aka Spider was never solicited for money, connections, etc. and that Beck is never merely heard from again after IDW’s Spike miniseries.


    * I remember Scott Allie hired Christos Gage to do BtVS S10 and that Joss wasn’t involved in that process, that Allie assumed Joss wasn’t even going to show up to the Season 10 Writers’ Summit, that Joss Whedon arrived late, and that essentially Joss’s involvement in the Season 10 Writers Summit was Joss’s main contribution to Season 10 and Joss’s involvement in Season 10 is essentially limited to the Season 10 Writers Summit, which would mean he was much less involved in Season 10 than he was in AtF and IDW’s Spike miniseries.



    ONLY JOSS WHEDON IS THE ARBITER OF CANON IN THE BUFFYVERSE.


    * The Buffyverse has perpetual canon, and that is TV BtVS, TV AtS, Fray , Tales of the Slayers , and Tales of the Vampires (regarding Tales , the 2011 hardcover has all the canonical stuff, and the BtVS S8 Tales of the Vampires stuff is nicely separated). Joss Whedon isn’t going to change those even if he can and wants to make a live action, cartoon, or anime something.

    Joss Whedon was fully involved in BtVS S8, so that’s unlikely to ever be non-canonical unless necessary for a live action, cartoon, or anime something.

    Joss was less involved in Season 9 (especially A&F S9), but I don’t recall his ever suggesting it may not be canon.


    Outside of what is actually in the above point, only Joss Whedon’s statements and regards on the Buffyverse is actually canon. All others are simply giving opinions at most.


    - During BtVS S2, I remember Joss Whedon said that Angel was sired when he was 27 years old and that Spike was sired when he was 25 years old. That is what is canon. Liam’s tombstone saying he died at 26 is simply incorrect.

    - Faith’s surname “Lehane” came because of the BtVS role playing game (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffyv...-playing_games) because Joss needed to come up with a surname for her. Kendra “Young” also happened. [url]

    There was this role playing game or something. They said she hadda have a last name for her so I chose Lehane 'cause I wanted something southie, just as you thought. So if you hate the name. oops.

    And it's Rogue Waladarsky. In full.
    joss | January 02, 03:23 CET (2005, 01-02) http://whedonesque.com/comments/5682
    - “Pratt” is possibly not canon. I remember Joss Whedon came up with the surname during BtVS S5, but by “Lies My Parents Told Me” (B 7.17) Cecily Addams became “the Underwoods eldest daughter”, which could relate to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cecili...s_of_Inverness and William has Dr. Gull https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_Wi...l,_1st_Baronet as his ‘house call’ doctor for Anne when William and Anne were in London. “Pratt” has not been used in any of the possibly canonical stuff since Spike: Asylum .

    -- Given Spike spent time in prison because of tax evasion, it seems Spike has a legal identity and he clearly doesn’t want the Scoobies and whoever else knowing about it.


    * It’s called the Whedonverse for a reason. It’s the foundation upon outside of confirmed canon, only Joss Whedon’s statements and opinions actually matter regarding the Buffyverse. It’s why it’s irksome that even in Season 10, some posters will quote something Christos Gage and/or Scott Allie and/or whoever said in some tweet, post, blog entry, Q&A, etc. as if such quote is actually canon.

    Regarding Season 10, the prime example is Joss Whedon in a 2013, 07-24 interview (http://www.nerdist.com/2013/07/joss-...nd-avengers-2/) says Angel is completely responsible for everything he did in BtVS S8 (perhaps other than when he was possessed by Twilight from 8.38-9). I remember Christos Gage saying that Angel was already redeemed before A&F S9 even began.

    Again, the recent Angel crossover in Season 10 has Buffy (and maybe the Scoobies as a whole) seemingly considering the only bad thing Angel is responsible for regarding BtVS S8 is killing Giles.


    http://slayalive.com/showthread.php/...y-Season-10-18

    Regarding Christos Gage’s answer to Question 2:

    Christos Gage: “And you could argue that Spike, having been so recently souled, is more like a teenager in terms of his development than Angel, who’s more like a middle-aged guy, having been souled over a century ago.”

    Compare that to Joss: "Well, he's a different guy than Angel. Angel was at full-tilt evil, that just got clothes lined by those Gypsies and spent 100 years going, 'Ah yah aha hah,' trying to figure it out -- what it was he had to do. Spike actually went in search for a soul while he had none, so I think he was much more evolved then Angel, personally." http://www.cityofangel.com/behindThe.../sdcc03_2.html


    * I also remember Nicholas Brendan seemingly essentially saying Season 10 isn’t canon; clearly, Nicholas Brendan doesn’t remember Joss saying anything indicating that Season 10 is canon.



    THINGS IN SEASON 10 CONTRADICT PREVIOUSLY ESTABLISHED CANON.


    The only thing I can think of is some thing(s) and/or being(s) is making the characters act they way they do and Giles was given a super increase in magical powers because some outside force gave him such powers. In addition, the Scoobies’s and Dracula’s memories were changed so that they’d remember the Vampr book contained the Rules of Magic.


    * Season 10 says the Vampr book after briefly discussing vampires has been a reference regarding the Rules of Magic. The Vampr book was never a book on the Rules of Magic. Not once during pre-Season 10 has anyone looked in that book for reference regarding magic, for a spell, etc.


    * The story doesn’t explain Xander’s apologizing to Angel any more than it explains Dawn’s hugging Angel and Dawn’s acting as if each of the Scoobies and Angel are equally evil.


    * Giles didn’t repress his magical powers. He later on did the Eyghon stuff. He finished his Watcher training. He did magic during the TV Buffyverse.

    - Giles never had the level of magical ability he has in Season 10. Sophronia Fairweather and Lavinia Fairweather have nowhere near that level of magical ability. Season 10 Giles’s magical abilities are far above Willow’s BtVS S7 magical abilities and are near Season 10 Willow’s magical abilities. Willow by BtVS S7 had literally sucked all the magic from every magic book in the Magic Box, she literally sucked all the magic out of Rack, she had literally sucked the magics out of Giles that was given to him by the Coven, Willow trained with the Coven, etc. By BtVS S8, Willow had somehow become more powerful after doing the Empowerment Spell; she had trained and likely gotten power from Aluwyn the Saga Vasuki. In BtVS S9, she was literally given a Seedling’s worth of magic by the Embodiment of Magic. If anything, Willow is a lot less magically powerful in Season 10 than it’s implied she should be.

    Suddenly out of nowhere, Giles is almost at Willow’s level of magical power.

    -- In the TV Buffyverse, Giles didn’t even have near the level of magical ability Ethan Rayne had. Giles’s magical ability essentially was around the level that Angel and Spike had and probably less than what Drusilla had (especially true if one includes Ring of Fire and Spike & Dru: “Paint the Town Red” as canon).


    * Season 10 regarding Buffy/Spike is directly opposed to previously established canon. ‘Bad writing’ isn’t a valid excuse.

    - Buffy NEVER considered Unsouled Angel and Unsouled Spike as equivalent. That is canon. It’s also canon that after BtVS S8, Buffy certainly didn’t consider Souled Angel and Souled Spike as equivalent.

    - All the BtVS S6 ‘issues’ regarding Buffy/Spike outside of Buffy/Angel, Buffy/Spike, and the ‘literal eternal relationship’ question, were dealt with before and during “Never Leave Me” (B 7.09).

    - Again, Joss Whedon is the only arbiter in canon of the Buffyverse. I remember his saying Buffy and Spike had sex in BtVS S7. I remember his saying that the blackout scene was specifically put in there to indicate that Buffy and Spike had sex with each other (he said he simply didn’t want to show it). Buffy in BtVS S8 says she was having a ‘slow year’ and given there’s no indication she had sex with anyone after Spike before Satsu, she had sex with Spike in BtVS S7. Buffy said she was missing ‘that sex’ and she doesn’t then say, ‘Why didn’t Spike have sex with me after he got his soul back?’


    * Buffy and Co. bringing Angel into the fight: “Chosen” (B 7.22) made clear that Buffy’s wasn’t going to risk her relationship with Spike even if Angel could be helpful in a huge fight. Buffy didn’t even contact Angel for help during any of the Glory situation. Yet the entire Scooby Gang in Season 10 thinks it’s a good idea to bring Angel even though it’s clear he could be a liability.


    * Regarding BtVS 10.16, all of the Scoobies and Angel were ‘in the line of fire’. Buffy risking ‘taking a bullet’ for Angel as if she suddenly forgot non-wooden projectiles aren’t deadly to Angel unless they can decapitate him, that projectiles can be deadly to Buffy and can cause her severe injury, that Dawn and Xander are ‘mere’ humans who are at even greater risks of such projectiles, and neither Spike nor Angel think to protect Buffy from such projectiles before she decided to risk ‘taking a bullet’ for Angel.

    - “Blood Ties” (B 5.13), Buffy ‘took a bullet’ for Dawn because Dawn could have been killed by that crowbar, because Dawn could have been injured by that crowbar, and to prove her loyalty to Dawn.


    * Season 10 says the demon spirits inside The Master, Darla, Angel, Drusilla, Spike, and whomever else those vampires sired is the demon spirit from Archaeus. BtVS S8 clearly stating that all vampires’ demon spirits come from Maloker.



    SEASON 10 SHOULDN’T SUPERSEDE THE TV BUFFYVERSE, BTVS S8, AND BTVS S9.


    Other things in canon can be explained.


    * Regarding “Chosen” (B 7.22), Angel’s always been more in love with Buffy than he’s been in love with Cordelia and Angel/Cordelia is largely-to-entirely because of Jasmine. “Chosen” (B 7.22) makes perfect sense.


    * Regarding Spike in AtS s5: Spike in “Lineage” (A 5.07) was trying to cheer Wesley up and was trying to be useful (Spike’s still incorporeal). Spike had told Robin Wood about the Anne Pratt situation. Spike stayed with the Fang Gang because Spike was still concerned about the Shanshu Prophecy because Spike was still insecure regarding the Buffy/Spike relationship. It can all make sense.


    * Regarding AtS s4, Jasmine wanted Uncursed Angel loose; therefore, Angel didn’t remember The Beast. It’s possible Angel had never actually met The Beast before and Jasmine in AtS s4 simply implanted such memories in Uncursed Angel.


    * Regarding Warren Meers in BtVS S8, Warren did die. Warren simply died before Willow ‘immolated’ him. Warren only needed to be ‘dead’ for a microsecond for the First Evil to use his image. It’s not as if we saw Warren breathing before Willow ‘immolated’ him.


    * Regarding IDW, the Brian Lynch stuff (outside of Last Angel in Hell given the non-supernatural beings forgot about Hell-LA; therefore, a movie on Hell-LA is unlikely to exist), Juliet Landau’s Drusilla Issues, and Illyria: Haunted don’t contradict pre-Season 10. That doesn’t mean all of it is canon; it mean it’s possible that all of it can be canon.


    Season 10 contradicts previously established canon to the point that pre-Season 10 would have been vastly different if major things in Season 10 are actually canon.

    * “Welcome to the Hellmouth” (B 1.01) and after would have been a lot different with Season 10 power level Giles.


    * If Buffy actually considers Spike and Angel equally evil, it’s unlikely she would have made that deal with Spike in “Becoming Part II” (B 2.22). Certainly, she would have done a disinvite years before “Crush” (B 5.14). During or after “Pangs” (B 4.08), Spike would have been dusted or he’d be cursed as Angel is. Regarding post-BtVS 8.39, Buffy wouldn’t have wanted Spike around because she would have considered ensouled Spike equally as evil as AngelTwilight.


    * Regarding BtVS S7, for Season 10 to make sense, perhaps Spike simply never came back after “Seeing Red” (B 6.19) and somehow showed up in Season 9.


    * Regarding Xander, he’d have to care more about Angel than Xander cares about Buffy, Willow, and Spike combined. So little to none of Xander’s hostility toward Angel happened, which means a large part of Xander’s character and storylines in BtVS S1-BtVS S3 didn’t happen.

  2. #2
    Well Spiked Stoney's Avatar
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    And this just proves my point that there is no talking to you about things when you have a personal preference about what you wish happened. As I said on the rewatch you are wrong about Joss, excerpts from his commentary on Chosen...

    [from them sharing a bed before The First talks to Buffy and Spike wakes drowning in footwear...]

    "The idea behind their sleeping together was very important. It was that their relationship had enough trust in it: that it was physical and romantic but not sexual. That was, of course, in response to the rape issue of last year, when he had attempted to rape her because he didn't understand the boundaries of their relationship – he was soulless. But having gotten his soul and having fought to become a person, we wanted to say this man can be redeemed from that.

    Not – and I've said this before, but I'll say it again – not in a Luke and Laura "he rapes her and they get married" way. Not in an "all is forgiven" way. Just in the way of he's still a human being who did a wrong thing and we still count him as a human being. I think that's a very important message, that their relationship should be complicated, and yet come to a place of trust. Without saying "Okay, now they're going to become lovers again", because I think that would be wrong. I think that's the wrong message. It's a very fine line. "

    [from when Buffy goes down to see Spike before the battle...]

    "And to me it's almost the most important shot in the show because it really shows the mystery of their relationship. And that's one where I wanted the audience to fill in the blanks. I wanted them – I wanted whatever you want to have happened, to have happened. If people believe that on their last night together they made love, great! If they believe that on their last night together they talked all night, great! If they believe that they had a fight, great!

    Whatever it is, it's up to the viewer and I think that the viewer has earned that, and I love that elliptical nature of their last night together. I think that there should be work for the viewer to do, in that sense, emotionally, because I think it makes it more textured. And that shot of the two of them looking at each other, I just find beautiful."

    And so I see no point in taking the time to respond to other things you have said when you won't accept you are wrong about something you would prefer.

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    Scooby Gang betta's Avatar
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    Christos Gage On crossing over characters from his "Angel & Faith" run with his "Buffy: Season 10" run:



    On crossing over characters from his "Angel & Faith" run with his "Buffy: Season 10" run:

    It's been a lot of fun. Obviously Rebekah [Isaacs] and I both worked on "Angel & Faith" [Season 9] so getting to see her draw Angel again was great. It's funny 'cause when we had the Season 10 summit Scott Allie and I -- Scott had raised the idea of maybe we should do a relationship, an actual, real relationship with Buffy and Spike this season. We pitched it to Joss [Whedon] and he said, "I think that would be really awkward for Buffy. Let's do it." So we structured it so that it comes at the most awkward time, Spike and Buffy are just starting up this relationship and all the sudden her comes Angel. And of course his relationship with Buffy has a lot of history and with Spike there's always competition. So that has been a lot of fun just bringing them all together and watching the sparks fly.

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    Arbiter of Canon Vampire in Rug's Avatar
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    Yes, season 10 is canon. That's not up for debate, it's a fact. Joss Whedon has given the comics his stamp of approval, which is pretty much the minimum requirement, really. Notice how Joss's name was NOT on the IDW comics he had zero involvement with and it was NOT on Spike: Into the Light, clearly there is a distinction that is being drawn. Furthermore, Joss was at the writers summit. He gave and listened to ideas. Sure, he may be involved in season 10 to a lesser extent than he was in seasons 8 and 9, but that's really got no bearing at all on whether the season is canon. It is. The books will remain canon until Joss removes his name from them.

    That said, just because a book is canon, doesn't necessarily mean it's good. The Star Wars prequel trilogy always had a higher canon status (G-canon) than the EU material (C-canon), yet some of the EU material was of much higher quality. Some EU material was better than others while both had equal footing at the C-canon level. Now none of the EU material is canon. That doesn't have bearing on how good or bad the EU material is, it simply means that future writers are not bound by the old EU when writing new material under the 2014 onwards Disney canon.

    Also, just because you disagree with something -or even a majority of the audience disagrees with something, that doesn't mean it's non canon. I think it's disgusting that Gwen Stacy had sex with Norman Osborne, but that's canon. Bad writing can be canon and great writing can be non-canon.

    Canon can also be nebulous given that multiple writers work on projects like these and even TV shows. Some fans say that David Greenwalt had more to do with Angel's development than Joss did, so what if Greenwalt wanted to write a story and call it canon? Betta George seems to be Brian Lynch's charcter, what if Lynch wanted to write a Betta George story and say that the exploration of George's character was canon? Often the writers doesn't actually own the character. Joss Whedon doesn't own Buffy, FOX does. Does an executive from FOX have the right to step in and declare this story canon and that story non-canon? What if the property changes ownership like what happened with Disney and Star Wars? What happens if Joss decides to hand over the property to another storyteller, does the new storyteller become (as Mike puts it) "the arbiter of canon"?

    Back to the topic at hand...

    Mike, just because you "remember" something, that means SFA. You've "remembered" things in the past that have been proven false, not to mention your tendency to lie about things and invent your own canon. I'm not going to sit through a 40 minute Youtube of the 2015 Comic Con just to find some part you "remember" that may not have actually happened and if it did, is certainly not as clear-cut as you're making it out to be. If you want us to believe you on this, why don't you actually quote the exact words Joss said, and tell us the exact time in the video we can skip to?

    Same with the Nick Brendan quote. I don't believe Nick Brendan actually said season 10 is non-canon, if you want anyone to believe he said that, you're gonna have to provide a quote.

    I'm also wondering if you can provide a source for your idea that BtVS TV canon supersedes AtS TV canon, and that BtVS comic canon supersedes A&F comic canon. Is this something you just made up on your own, or did someone from FOX/Dark Horse actually come out and explain the canon hierarchy? Personally, I don't see why it can't ALL be canon.

    Dark Horse's Spike and Dru: Paint the Town Red and Ring of Fire were never canon. I doubt Joss has even read them. In another thread you said that they had information printed on the cover stating that they were canon. Another poster who owns the books when they were originally published called you out on this, so you backtracked and said that Joss claimed they were canon in an interview which mysteriously can't be found anywhere. The only thing you have to suggest their canonical status is your own memory, you've got no covers, no link to an interview, nothing. Why should anybody believe you about this when you can't provide a single shred of evidence, and you are literally the only person who "remembers" this?

    In season 7, Buffy did not have sex with Spike. The only, only time where they *might* have had sex was after the fade to black. Joss wanted to keep it ambiguous and leave it up to the viewer. They were certainly not having sex *throughout* season 7, that has never been suggested anywhere in the canon. Season 10 now suggests that they didn't have sex at all in season 7, not even after the fade to black. Joss wanted it ambiguous at the time because it was the last episode. Now that the relationship is being explored again in season 10, they are free to clarify what actually happened.

    Stoney has posted direct quotes from Joss from the Chosen commentary track. He talks about how he did not want to rush Buffy and Spike back into a sexual relationship, and how he wanted the audience to decide for themselves what happened after the fade to black.

    If you "remember" Joss saying that Buffy and Spike had sex in season 7... that doesn't mean jack shit unless you can actually provide a quote. The quote from the commentary track directly contradicts what you think you remember. Furthermore, if Joss had wanted the audience to definitively know that Spike and Buffy had sex, why the hell wouldn't he show it? You seem to remember all kinds of stuff that never happened.

    Same with the Illyria: Haunted miniseres. I enjoyed it too, but Joss never said this series was canon.

    Your idea of Spike being sired when he was 25 years old is yet another thing that you seem to have invented unless you can provide a quote from Joss.

    None of the stuff you've listed in season 10 contradicting previous canon seems to actually contradict it. Poor writing or poor choices from the characters doesn't mean that something is non-canon. You might think it's stupid or out-of-character for Xander to apologize to Angel, but it doesn't actually contradict previous mythology in any major way. It's canon.

    Warren Mears being legally dead for like a second was a retcon that came up after the fact. Joss forgot that the First Evil had impersonated Warren. It was a writing mistake that Joss had to clear up (lazily) afterwards.

    And let's be real, if season 10 was portraying the characters in the way you'd like them to be portrayed, you'd have no trouble accepting the season as canon regardless of how involved Joss was. The reason you don't think season 10 is canon, and the reason this thread exists is because the characters are acting in ways that don't match up with how *you* envision the characters or think that they should act. Sorry Mike, but you're not the arbiter of canon.

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    All caught up.

    All said regarding writers, producers, actors, directors, viewers, readers, etc. are what I remember, my opinions, etc.





    Stoney

    * The “Chosen” (B 7.22) commentary isn’t the last time Joss Whedon has spoken about whether Buffy/Spike had sex in “Chosen”.

    You consider BtVS S8 canon. Buffy says she’s been having a slow year or whatever. Do you consider Buffy had sex with someone after “Chosen” (B 7.22) but before
    Spoiler:
    Satsu?
    Or that Buffy suddenly became horrible at English and grammar and when she said ‘a slow year’ she really meant ‘a few years’ or ‘several years’?

    The only reason I listed Buffy/Spike “Chosen” (B 7.22) sex as effectively canon instead of canon is because of the very slight possibility that Buffy had sex after “Chosen” and Joss could change his mind about Buffy/Spike “Chosen” sex.

    And so I see no point in taking the time to respond to other things you have said when you won't accept you are wrong about something you would prefer.
    It’s not canon that Buffy/Spike DIDN’T have sex in “Chosen” (B 7.22). Even in the commentary for “Chosen”, Joss says that they had sex if that’s what the viewer wants.



    Vampire in Rug

    Yes, season 10 is canon. That's not up for debate, it's a fact. Joss Whedon has given the comics his stamp of approval, which is pretty much the minimum requirement, really.
    No, the minimum requirement for canon is that it has to make sense that it could be canon. Too much of Season 10 is directly opposed to canon.

    I wonder how far some people would take something labelled as canon. A weaponless powerless Xander beating up a full-powered Illyria?

    Also, just because you disagree with something -or even a majority of the audience disagrees with something, that doesn't mean it's non canon.
    That’s not true of the Buffyverse given how much ‘input’ Joss Whedon takes from the audience. I mean,
    Spoiler:
    Buffy/Spike vs. Buffy/Angel is still somehow kept alive after the end of Season 12 even though that makes around zero sense.


    Joss Whedon doesn't own Buffy, FOX does.
    The Kuzuis and Gail Berman own Buffy. Now Disney owns the TV rights to Buffy the Vampire Slayer . But Fox doesn’t own Buffy as relates to a movie.

    Fox licensed the BtVS property because it owns the rights to the characters created for the TV series.

    Joss Whedon through Mutant Enemy owns some of BtVS TV series.

    Mike, just because you "remember" something, that means SFA. You've "remembered" things in the past that have been proven false,
    Such as? Other people not remembering things, not being aware of things, etc., doesn’t mean that I don’t remember and that I’m unaware. Posters on this Board don’t remember basic things about certain episodes, etc.

    not to mention your tendency to lie about things
    Examples? And the proper number of examples given your use of the word “tendency”. Otherwise, that’s l9be).

    and invent your own canon.
    Examples? And things I said are canon.

    I'm not going to sit through a 40 minute Youtube of the 2015 Comic Con just to find some part you "remember" that may not have actually happened and if it did, is certainly not as clear-cut as you're making it out to be. If you want us to believe you on this, why don't you actually quote the exact words Joss said, and tell us the exact time in the video we can skip to?
    So, you’re willing to spend possibly weeks or months total yearly posting on this Board and whatever other Board about the Buffyverse, yet you’re unwilling to watch Joss Whedon’s 2015 Comic Con thing.

    I wonder if you never bothered to watch the 2008 PaleyFest Buffy Panel.

    Same with the Nick Brendan quote. I don't believe Nick Brendan actually said season 10 is non-canon, if you want anyone to believe he said that, you're gonna have to provide a quote.
    I remember I did. I also remember that I repeatedly quoted Joss Whedon’s Nerdist interview in which he said that Angel is responsible for everything Angel did in BtVS S8 including in BtVS 8.38 and BtVS 8.39. Yet posters continued to try to absolve Angel of things he did in BtVS S8.

    Heck, I remember KingOfCretins continues to say that Sarah Michelle Gellar wanted Xander as Buffy’s boyfriend in BtVS S4 even after multiple posters had given the quotes by her saying that she wanted Spike as Buffy’s new boyfriend.

    So, no, if a person doesn’t remember something or doesn’t know something, that’s that person’s problem, not mine. I try anyway to limit my ‘outside evidence’ responses to things.

    I'm also wondering if you can provide a source for your idea that BtVS TV canon supersedes AtS TV canon, and that BtVS comic canon supersedes A&F comic canon.
    Basic common sense says BtVS TV canon supersedes AtS TV canon, and that BtVS comic canon supersedes A&F comic canon.

    Anyway, the only example I remember that posters try to go against this is for the TV stuff is to say that Darla is somehow actually more powerful than Drusilla, Spike, and Angel. And there’s no good evidence of that anyway given Darla’s best showings of power came when Connor was inside her and even then, her ‘biggest feat’ was less impressive than Drusilla’s feat in the train.

    Plus, obviously, Connor-infused Darla never killed a Slayer.

    The only example for the comics is posters trying to say that Angel isn’t responsible for much of what he did in BtVS S8 because they say that since Angel said he blacked out at times or whatever and that he told Willow he wanted all the good people in Twilight that Angel wasn’t as bad as we thought. And then they leave out or forget that Angel later in A&F S9 tells Whistler that Angel was a bad guy in BtVS S8 and takes responsibility for everything he did.


    * Given the Disney move, possible new BtVS series, and whatever else, I’m not sure what comics remain canon. At the time, Spike & Dru: “Paint the Town Red” and Ring of Fire were canon. The end of Season 12 questions whether Joss Whedon intends for even Fray to remain canon.

    Given the Disney streaming things, there’s still the possibility of something happening with the original cast. Netflix is considering a credible threat. And Amazon is close to $1T in market value and Apple is over $1T in market value. Disney is currently worth around $163B in market value. There are probably over 15-20MM BtVS fans worldwide and most dismiss even Season 8.

    Anyway, here’s what wikia lists: http://buffy.wikia.com/wiki/Canon


    * I don’t recall my saying that Joss Whedon said Illyria: Haunted was canon. I said that it was marketed as canon. And considering BtVS S9 with Illyria’s power level, it’s likely that Illyria: Haunted could be canon.

    Your idea of Spike being sired when he was 25 years old is yet another thing that you seem to have invented unless you can provide a quote from Joss.
    This was widely known during BtVS S2 because Joss Whedon said Spike was sired at 25 years old and Angel at 27 years old. Even the AtS presentation has David Boreanaz saying Angel was sired at 27 years old. Liam’s tombstone has him dying at 26 years old, but so what.

    The only reason I remember posters saying that William died when he was older than Liam was is because of how old James Marsters looks in “Lies My Parents Told Me” (B 7.17). That’s it. That’s even the reference David Fury makes. William looked around 30 years old.

    And let's be real, if season 10 was portraying the characters in the way you'd like them to be portrayed, you'd have no trouble accepting the season as canon regardless of how involved Joss was.
    I’m not sure exactly how to respond to this given my point is that Season 10 directly opposes previously established canon too much for it to be canon.

    I had no problem with Warren, The Master, TwilightAngel, the Seed, the bugship, Spider and Co., Beck, Morgan, Non, etc. because all are plausible within previously established canon.

    If Buffy and Angel in “The Yoko Factor” (B 4.20) or BtVS S5 or BtVS S7 acted as if they hadn’t seen each other since “Becoming Part II” (B 2.22), I’m sure all viewers would have major problems with that.

    We know Angel and Spike could do some magic. What if either in a later Season suddenly is shown to have Season 10 Giles powers without any buildup like with Willow? Angel was scared of the Master. Giles was scared for Buffy regarding hers facing the Master and hers facing Spike.

    Posters simply make excuses for post-Season 9.

    I’ve also never had a problem with anyone who dismissed BtVS S8 after the Angel-as-Twilight reveal. However, that doesn’t disqualify BtVS S8 as canon because we already know that Angel is Angelus with the effects the curse and the time and experiences since being cursed. We already know what Angel is like when he’s not feeling the effects of the course. Even Season 9 is plausible given Buffy didn’t dust Angel after BtVS S2, dust Spike after the demon eggs thing, and kill Willow after “Grave” (B 6.22).

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeB View Post
    * The “Chosen” (B 7.22) commentary isn’t the last time Joss Whedon has spoken about whether Buffy/Spike had sex in “Chosen”.
    But when has he ever said what you claimed which was... "Again, Joss Whedon is the only arbiter in canon of the Buffyverse. I remember his saying Buffy and Spike had sex in BtVS S7. I remember his saying that the blackout scene was specifically put in there to indicate that Buffy and Spike had sex with each other (he said he simply didn’t want to show it)." You have given no source for this and I have shown that it directly contradicts what he has said going from that transcript of the Chosen commentary I provided.

    Granted it isn't canon that they didn't have sex in Chosen but it is a fact that Joss, whilst leaving it open for the viewer to decide as he said, also made it clear he didn't think them getting physical at that point was the right message to give/confirm which presumably is why they didn't remove the ambiguity. That's going from the commentary comments and I've never seen him say anything that contradicts that like you are claiming. S10 also didn't definitively confirm that they didn't sleep together in Chosen either, but a lot of their interactions and conversations would be strange if they had and it was just being ignored/brushed over. But you could of course still choose to believe that they did regardless if you wanted. I would suggest though that it is possibly this kind of inflexibility to reconsider your original interpretation which may be why you don't think S10 onwards works against the earlier seasons when others can see the through line perfectly fine.

    You consider BtVS S8 canon. Buffy says she’s been having a slow year or whatever. Do you consider Buffy had sex with someone after “Chosen” (B 7.22) but before
    Spoiler:
    Satsu?
    Or that Buffy suddenly became horrible at English and grammar and when she said ‘a slow year’ she really meant ‘a few years’ or ‘several years’?

    The only reason I listed Buffy/Spike “Chosen” (B 7.22) sex as effectively canon instead of canon is because of the very slight possibility that Buffy had sex after “Chosen” and Joss could change his mind about Buffy/Spike “Chosen” sex.

    Buffy in BtVS S8 says she was having a ‘slow year’ and given there’s no indication she had sex with anyone after Spike before Satsu, she had sex with Spike in BtVS S7. Buffy said she was missing ‘that sex’ and she doesn’t then say, ‘Why didn’t Spike have sex with me after he got his soul back?’
    Well I think that is obvious why she wouldn't have said that, because their relationship wasn't at that stage again and she was probably also not ready for it to be physical again yet either. I'm completely with Joss on this, I don't think it would have been the right choice and I do think their S10 relationship backs up that they hadn't gotten physical back in S7 too. But you can continue to believe it if you choose to of course. But I still don't believe Joss has ever contradicted what he said in the commentary about his own feelings on it, which was the statement you made I originally was responding to I think.

    I would have to go back and look at the complete scene in which Buffy talks about it being a slow year and 'that sex' to see if the slow year may have been a general reference to romantic potential/possibilities rather than also being about sex specifically. I still haven't unpacked my Buffy comics yet and I failed to find images of the pages on google to look at. I'll try to remember to check when I dig them out.

    Can I assume by you saying now that... "Joss could change his mind about Buffy/Spike “Chosen” sex." ...that you are no longer stating that Joss has said that they did and the whole blackout was there to indicate that they had which was what you said originally??
    Last edited by Stoney; 20-09-18 at 01:35 PM.

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    I voted "YES" because I enjoyed this season a lot.
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    I voted "No", because it sucked and bored the hell out of me, and "Maybe" for the highly improbable case they do a season 13, against all the odds, which blows me away.

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    I see I may have misinterpreted the question. I thought it was about official canon, not "personal canon". The first, I think, is not up for debate. As Vampire in Rug said at the start of the thread, it is a fact. S10 *is* canon, so yes, I do consider it canon. But if we're talking about personal canon, my answer would have been no. For me, my personal canon ends after AtF, and it also includes some of the other IDW stories, most notably the Illyria ones. None of the DH comics are part of my personal canon, apart from maybe a few snippets from S8. (I do like the notion that the Slayer partying in Rome was not actually Buffy, for instance. Angel as Twilight though? No way.)

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    Is it official canon? Yes, because JW says so.

    Is it my personal canon? It is my personal comic canon.

    For me BtVS can end with Chosen. The Buffyverse can end with NFA. They are both fitting ends to the respective seasons and as for NFA to the Buffyverse on the whole. But I really enjoy the comics as a continuation that is not quite the tv-series but it`s almost there. Meaning, that there does exist a second Buffyverse for me, that continues after NFA in the comics and that includes all official canon comics.

    I have just finished the first volume of the Library Edition for season 10 and I simply love this season. It`s great. Didn`t we complain til we were blue in the face, that Tara is never mentioned again in the series? And here we have Willow telling Andrew that it is always her first thought if this or that new piece of magic could bring back Tara. It is so bittersweet. And Anya haunting Xander and supporting him at the same time. And Spike and Xander going to a bar together. And Buffy saying "Don`t feed the trolls" and...

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