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Thread: 2016 United States Presidential Election.

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    Voting for Hillary is a damn sight better than voting for that pig. The fact he even made it this far is an utter embarrassment to America and makes the country an absolute laughing stock around the globe. I can't even be bothered sugar coating it because it's just so repugnant to me. It's utterly shameful that someone who spreads so much hate and who is so openly and unapologetically racist and bigoted has that much support and has come so far. Hillary may not be perfect but she hasn't embarrassed your country in front of the rest of the world and last time I checked she didn't refer to Mexicans as "rapists" or want to ban all muslims or condone murdering innocent men, women and children.
    Last edited by vampmogs; 18-03-16 at 01:03 PM.
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    All caught up



    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/27/us...n-results.html

    Regarding my writing this: “With the relatively big loss in Ohio, US Senator Bernie Sanders essentially now has no path to the nomination. It's probably unlikely New York is going to support Sanders over Hilary Clinton. And California will probably also support Clinton over Sanders.”, I was perhaps incorrect.

    Regarding polls, United States Senator Bernie Sanders does better than Hilary Clinton does in current matchups against Donald Trump and against US Senator Ted Cruz.

    BTW, US Senator Ted Cruz’s numbers will likely go down when more voters get to know more about him. Governor John Kasich will also be destroyed in a general election when voters get to know more about him.

    Are African Americans going to vote for either Donald Trump or Ted Cruz instead of Bernie Sanders? No.

    Bernie Sanders does better with Independents than Hilary Clinton does. Bernie Sanders has the excitement of liberals. Hilary Clinton doesn’t. The Democratic Party in the 2016 C.E. elections needs Independent support, and liberals and Democrats showing up to vote.

    Currently, either Donald Trump manages to get enough delegates to clinch the Republican nomination or there’s going to be an open convention in which it’s likely Trump will be denied the nomination and someone like Mitt Romney may become the nominee. In any case, it’s almost certain the Republican Party is not going to gain the Presidency in 2016 C.E. Independent support and huge numbers of Democrats going to the polls is what is going to gain the most US House of Representatives seats, US Senate seats, State Governments seats and State Governorships for the Democrats.

    What Bernie Sanders needs to do is tell the American public whom his foreign policy advisers are and whom his military advisers are and/or might be.




    KingofCretins

    Can't have enough old white folk, right? Heh.
    What do you mean? The Republican Presidential candidate is almost certainly going to be an “old white man”.

    I voted for Cruz in my state's primary.
    Ted Cruz is the most disliked person in the US Senate. Ted Cruz shut down the US Government essentially for his personal ego and it cost the US tens of billions of dollars.

    ________________________________________________

    He has proven 100% immune to all conventional wisdom of political campaigning in the US. He doesn't have nine lives, he has nine cats' worth.
    Yes, but the Republicans started with 17 Presidential candidates and all were terrible. It’s managed to be whittled down to someone few know who could only win his home State. Someone relatively few know and who is the most disliked person in the US Senate. And finally someone whose supporters are essentially Bernie Sanders supporters plus being racist and/or not smart and/or not educated.

    Most importantly, Republicans make up around 20-25% of the voting population. Republicans have only done relatively well since 2010 C.E. because of voting restrictions and gerrymandering.

    ________________________________________________

    that really doesn't leave 'good, kind and intelligent people' anywhere to go in a Trump v. Clinton election, unless that refers to the Gary Johnson voters.
    In a Trump v. Clinton matchup, the “good, kind, and intelligent people” would almost all vote for Hilary Clinton.




    Stoney

    http://variety.com/2016/tv/news/loui...us-1201723679/

    That was a very stupid article.

    But [Trump] is Hitler. And by that I mean that we are being Germany in the 30s. Do you think they saw the shit coming? Hitler was just some hilarious and refreshing dude with a weird comb over who would say anything at all.
    It seems Louis CK needs some history lessons regarding why Adolf Hitler was able to rise to power and history lessons regarding the historical hatred of Jews.

    And I’m not advocating for Hillary or Bernie. I like them both but frankly I wish the next president was a conservative only because we had Obama for eight years and we need balance. And not because I particularly enjoy the conservative agenda. I just think the government should reflect the people. And we are about 40 percent conservative and 40 percent liberal.
    It seems Louis CK has forgotten the past 8 years and also knows very little of US politics. US President Obama put 2 center-left Justices on the US Supreme Court, the Affordable Care Act is essentially “Romneycare”, the Obama Administration has deported more illegal immigrants than any US President in history, almost no Wall Street executives have gone to jail, military spending has considerably increased, etc. Relatively, US President Obama has been more ‘conservative’ than US President Bill Clinton was. In addition, even though Bill Clinton was impeached, he faced nowhere near the Republican opposition that President Obama has faced. And President Clinton didn’t have Citizens United to deal with.

    The voting public is around 20-25% Republican, around 40% Independent and 35-40% Democrat.

    Please pick someone else. Like John Kasich. I mean that guy seems okay. I don’t like any of them myself but if you’re that kind of voter please go for a guy like that.
    It seems Louis CK doesn’t know what Governor John Kasich’s policies and positions are. He doesn’t even like Kasich but he wants him to be President because the country needs “balance”.

    Louis CK is so uninformed that he doesn’t seem to know the US Supreme Court is gravely at stake. Does he want the SCOUTS to be even more ‘conservative’ than it already is?

    That’s just my view. At least right now. I know I’m not qualified or particularly educated
    Then you should have not written and got this stupid article published. At least those like George Clooney, Ben Affleck, Matt Damon, and Leonardo DiCaprio know about history and know about US politics.



    vampmogs

    The fact [Donald Trump] even made it this far is an utter embarrassment to America and makes the country an absolute laughing stock around the globe.
    Even US President George W. Bush couldn’t make the United States “an absolute laughing stock around the globe”. The United States in the foreseeable future will remain the wealthiest and most powerful country in the world.

  4. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeB View Post
    What do you mean? The Republican Presidential candidate is almost certainly going to be an “old white man”.
    Just keepin' it real; only one of the two major political parties ran anybody who wasn't old AF or wasn't white as snow. It wasn't the DNC.

    Ted Cruz is the most disliked person in the US Senate. Ted Cruz shut down the US Government essentially for his personal ego and it cost the US tens of billions of dollars.
    For his money, and mine, being disliked by a profligate debtor government is not a bug, it's a feature, for a candidate. I no more fault him for "obstructing" that than I would a sandbag for "obstructing" the Mississippi river if it climbed out of its bed.

    Most importantly, Republicans make up around 20-25% of the voting population. Republicans have only done relatively well since 2010 C.E. because of voting restrictions and
    gerrymandering.
    Factless nonsense. Party self-identification in US --

    As of October 2014, Gallup polling found that 43% of Americans identified as Democrats and 39% as Republicans, when party "leaners" were included; those figures changed to 41% Democratic and 42% Republican after the November 2014 elections.[3] However, an earlier 2013 Gallup survey found that 42% of Americans identified as political independents, a record high.[4]

    The latter result is more in line with Gallup polling in 2010 that found that 31% of Americans identified as Democrats (tying a 22-year low), 29% as Republicans, and 38% as independents.[5] Nevertheless, more American independents leaned to the Republican Party when compared to the Democratic Party. Combining leaners with each party's core identifiers, the parties ended up tied at 45 percent in 2011.[6]

    In 2014, Gallup found seventeen states safely or leaning Democratic, and fifteen states safely or leaning Republican, with eighteen states categorized as "competitive between the two parties",[7] a net shift of one state to the Republican side since 2013.[8] In February 2016, Gallup found fourteen states safely or leaning Democratic, and twenty states safely or leaning Republican, with sixteen categorized as "competitive", a net Democrat decline of eight states to give the Republicans a six state advantage. This is also the first time in the eight years that Gallup has tracked state partisanship that there have been more Republican than Democrat states, as well as a reversal from the Democrat highs of 2008 and 2009, or even the more recent 2012
    Wiki, citing Gallup

    Liberal-conservative self-identification --

    PRINCETON, N.J. -- Conservatives continued to outnumber moderates and liberals in the U.S. population in 2014, as they have since 2009. However, their 14-percentage-point edge over liberals last year, 38% vs. 24%, is the smallest in Gallup's trends since 1992. The percentage of U.S. adults identifying themselves as politically conservative in 2014 was unchanged from 2013, as was the percentage of moderates, at 34%, while the percentage considering themselves liberal rose a percentage point for the third straight year.
    Also Gallup, from Jan 2015

    In a Trump v. Clinton matchup, the “good, kind, and intelligent people” would almost all vote for Hilary Clinton.
    Must not be that many good or intelligent people -- she is the only person in race with negatives in the Trumposphere and quite frankly is probably the only one in the race who is genuinely a worse human being by public observation. I often and still refer to her as the most corrupt figure in American politics since Huey Long.

    Even US President George W. Bush couldn’t make the United States “an absolute laughing stock around the globe”. The United States in the foreseeable future will remain the wealthiest and most powerful country in the world.
    The guy who has arguably been trying fairly well has, though. If there were never an Obama administration, there would not now be Trump with such easy messaging.

    As a constitutionalist and a lawyer, I'm personally fascinated by any scenario that comes about which keeps anyone from winning 270 votes in the electoral college. For those that don't know, the next step would be a vote in the House of Representatives, by state delegation, and that would determine the President and Vice-President.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KingofCretins View Post
    For his money, and mine, being disliked by a profligate debtor government is not a bug, it's a feature, for a candidate. I no more fault him for "obstructing" that than I would a sandbag for "obstructing" the Mississippi river if it climbed out of its bed.
    You voted for a guy who associates with Kevin "all gays should be murdered" Swanson. Pretty sad.

    The guy who has arguably been trying fairly well has, though.
    Obama has done more to repair America's image since the Bush years than he ever has harmed it. I'm always somewhat amazed when Americans have a rather, well, skewed interpretation of how the rest of the world views their country. A republican president is at odds with the vast majority of the western world with Europe and Australia leaning far more left. Obama is actually a fairly well-liked and respected figure at least certainly here in Australia. We don't have weekly roundups laughing at all his gaffs like we did with Bush and his idiocy, for one thing. Anti-American sentiment is slowly starting to creep up again the more airtime Trump gets over here which is depressing and what was mild amusement with Bush is turning into fear and disgust towards Trump and the people that vote for him.
    Last edited by vampmogs; 27-03-16 at 02:51 PM.
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    To me, our standing in the world is not measured in, as for example, positive mention on twitter. It is measured in influence with and in cooperation by those in power in other nations. Ours is diminished these 7 years. Not only does nobody come asking for input or imprimatur on a wide array of international issues which avidly do bear on US interests, sometimes when this administration wants to insert itself anymore, they don't even get their call answered. That last had become the case in the lady couple years over the soaping with Ukraine, more recently in Syria, and starting to see it again in the south China Sea; Obama or Kerry wants to come in on Ukraine, Putiband Merkel be like "the grownups are talking". That is not a state of play that is in the best interest of my country.

    Nobody gets to just retire from being the global superpower in peace and quiet, everybody with an ax to grind will come for you. Only the UK got to walk away from that role in global geopolitics, and only they because they were patron to and later under the protection of their successor, the US. Who is in position to claim hyperpower status that this administration and his party are trying to rid us of, that shares or interests the way we shared Britain's after the war? Russia? China? Dar al Islam? Global power is pretty much "for life until death" through history, and for the sake of any kids I ever have, I would much rather be the bourgeois cowboy country nobody likes but everyone has to acknowledge and include than the much more trendy member of the clique that people step around and doesn't hold sway over events that affect it. Better to be Regina George than Karen or Gretchen, is the international relations TL;DR of it

    Which is all to say I will not be voting for Clinton under any circumstances, and much as I would like to, probably can't vote libertarian because of their foreign policy flaws. That said, a month ago, even on the day of my primary, I would have said "yes, if forced, I will vote for Trump", he has slid so low in the last few weeks to me that I would have to thibk hard about voting for some third party if there is some bizarre 3rd party move, but that is a tough call -- not sure I could do it unless I thought the numbers were there to throw EC vote to the House.

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    I'll respond to the above posts later -- maybe after next week's Democratic Primaries.


    http://time.com/4305927/charles-koch...n-republicans/

    WOW. "Conservative billionaire Charles Koch thinks there’s a chance Hillary Clinton could be a better choice for president than any of the Republicans in the running."

    The Koch brothers essentially founded and continue to support 'The Tea Party'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeB View Post
    The Koch brothers essentially founded and continue to support 'The Tea Party'.
    Popular myth, at least.

    Actual origin of the "tea party" movement was a pretty spontaneous groundswell that found a name for itself in the live on-air rant of CNBC's Mark Santelli in which he proposed having a "Chicago Tea Party" in which capitalists would throw derivative securities into Lake Michigan.

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    http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...ults.html?_r=0

    The Democratic Primary is essentially over if one includes the superdelegates in Hilary Clinton’s total. In addition, California again essentially has around no say in who gets to be the Democratic candidate for the President of the United States.

    United States Senator Bernie Sanders lost Nevada, Texas (which could be in play), Virginia, Florida, North Carolina, Ohio, Arizona (which could be in play), and now Pennsylvania. Has he won any potential swing States? It doesn’t seem Wisconsin is actually going to be a swing State.


    * The future of the Democratic Party is no longer ‘Republican-light’. Hilary Clinton and the party has moved ‘to the left’ of the relatively moderate US President Barack Obama (and Obama is clearly ‘to the left’ of Bill Clinton). Single payer should remain a goal but that’s unlikely to happen unless both the US Senate and US House of Representatives are Democrat-controlled.


    * The future of the Republican Party seems to be populism. There is now pushback against anti-LGBT policies. There is likely to be future pushback against anti-abortion policies. At least on social issues, the Republican-leaning voters seem to be more ‘to the left’ on social issues than those people were previously.


    * US Senator Sanders is becoming relatively annoying regarding his demands to Hilary Clinton that she essentially adopts his platform in order to get his support. And these ‘Bernie or bust’ people I hope with eventually get some sense and perspective and vote for Hilary and other Democratic candidates if simply to prevent a Republican Presidency and a continued Republican-controlled US Senate. If the US House of Representatives is flipped, the US can have Single Payer, less expensive colleges, lower cost student loans, etc.



    KingofCretins

    For [Ted Cruz’s] money, and mine, being disliked by a profligate debtor government is not a bug, it's a feature, for a candidate.
    US Senator Ted Cruz is a Harvard-educated lawyer who has argued cases before the United States Supreme Court. His wife worked for Goldman Sachs. Senator Cruz got a lot of fame and attention because of his various doings in the US Senate. His policies aren’t actually considerably different from the ‘Establishment’ Republican candidates. Former US House of Representatives Majority Leader Eric Cantor also shut down the US Government for nonsense reasons.

    Outside of Military spending, how is the US Government profligate? Anyway, Senator Ted Cruz’s US Government shutdown cost the US Government $10s of Bs. That’s certainly not being ‘fiscally responsible’.


    * Pew Research and other groups state that Republicans make up around 20-25% of the voting population. Gallup in recent years hasn’t been fully accurate regarding elections. ‘Leaners’ is largely a meaningless distinction nowadays because of ‘The Tea Party’ and what the Republicans in the House and Senate do versus what the Republican voters generally would want them to do. Eric Cantor was a member of ‘The Tea Party’. Donald Trump’s success is mostly because voters are rejecting ‘The Tea Party’, the Koch brothers, and other such ‘Establishment interests’.


    * This is fact: “Republicans have only done relatively well since 2010 C.E. because of voting restrictions and gerrymandering.”

    [Per Gallup] Conservatives continued to outnumber moderates and liberals in the U.S. population in 2014, as they have since 2009.
    You actually cannot understand how silly such a statement is? United States President Obama was re-elected. The only reason the House was flipped in 2010 C.E. is because President Obama adamantly was against Super-Pacs. In the 2012 C.E elections, the Democrats also used Super-Pacs and actually won a majority of the voters for House of Representatives seats (http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...ity-2012-popu/); gerrymandering is the only reason the Republicans only kept control of the US House of Representatives. In the 2014 elections, most simply assumes it was going to be impossible to flip the US House of Representatives and many donors and workers and volunteers didn’t even try.

    Currently, it’s almost certain the Democrats are going to keep the White House for at least another 8 years, the US Senate is likely going to be flipped, and it’s possible the House of Representatives will be flipped within the next 8 years. The 2020 C.E. US Census is coming.


    * If only the intelligent could vote, Hilary Clinton would have won the Primaries in a landslide and would win the US Presidential election in an even larger landslide.

    One of the main reasons Senator Sanders lost the New York Primaries is that he railed against banks and Wall Street when campaigning in New York. That’s like railing against Silicon Valley and Hollywood while campaigning in California.


    * I don’t much like Hilary Clinton simply because she largely refuses to admit to making mistakes. But she wouldn’t destroy the United States. The Republican policies regarding the environment, taxation, abortion, civil rights, etc. are simply beyond deplorable.

    If there were never an Obama administration, there would not now be Trump with such easy messaging.
    Sure, there are many racists, many unintelligent, and many not-intellectual people in the United States. However, Trump is resonating because of populism. The Obama Administration has been excellent for the wealthy and for the rich. The stock market has skyrocketed. Almost no bankers went to jail. Banks and Corporations are more powerful than ever. Fracking was greatly supported. Monied people got to buy new windows, heating systems, solar panels etc. essentially near-free. Even the electric cars tax credits has largely only benefited monied people.

    I'm personally fascinated by any scenario that comes about which keeps anyone from winning 270 votes in the electoral college.
    Regarding the 2016 C.E. US Presidential elections, it is beyond laughable to consider such a thing. Unless Senator Bernie Sanders incredibly stupidly runs as a 3rd Party Candidate, there is near-zero chance that a Republican is going to win the Presidency. Trump needs to be the Republican candidate for any chance.

    _________________________________________________

    * The Obama Administration has managed to relatively contain China. The Dollar Standard is apparently so strong such things as this: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/21/us...hony.html?_r=0 can happen. The Saudis and OPEC in general are greatly diminished in power. China is finally less supportive of North Korea. China is generally actually scared of the United States. China is simply testing how much power and influence it can actually have. But South Korea and Japan continue to be very pro-United States. And the US can simply allow those two countries to have nuclear weapons and China suddenly becomes merely an economic powerhouse. China has been trying for years to have a hegemony over ‘the East’ yet Japan and South Korea remain of ‘the West’ and the United States has hegemony over ‘the West’ and now essentially over the entire world. Imagine if the US, Japan, and South Korea decide that they should control the South China Sea. China hasn’t really dared to challenge the United States militarily.

    Russia is also scared of the Untied States, which is the main reason for its Military buildup and provocations and its desperation to try to weaken NATO.

    Saudi Arabia, and its support of Wahhabism, is being greatly challenged. How Islam is taught and practiced in the world is being greatly challenged.

    In addition, the Obama Administration prevented Angela Merkel from having Germany have an actual hegemony over Europe. Moreover, the United States remains more powerful than the European Union.


    * The United States is relatively more powerful and influential than ever before.


    * You seem to not understand that there was very real concern that either China and/or Europe would ‘surpass’ the United States by now or in the near future.

    China has been building in the South China Sea yet American warships still actually control it. And, again, the US can simply support South Korea and Japan having nukes and allow Military buildups in both countries.

    The Middle East has been contained. Now there is serious consideration that the Middle East should handle its own Military problems.

    The Euro is weaker than before. Europe in general is weaker than before.

    The Unites States successfully got a Climate Change Accord passed.

    The Obama Administration defeated the coal industry, there are now serious challenges to the fossil fuel industry, and clean energy is an increasingly considerable factor in US energy production.

    _________________________________________________

    Read this: http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/20...ert-operations. There have been many articles, documentaries, etc. regarding the Koch brothers since this article was published.

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    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/04/us...atic.html?_r=0

    Barack Obama made Hilary Clinton United States Secretary of State. Hilary Clinton needs to give something to US Senator Bernie Sanders.

    Hilary Clinton needs to excite liberals, Democrats, and Independents and she currently doesn't. She won by having around 500 Superdelegates to start the race and having the overwhelming support of African-Americans and having the support of Latinos.

    But Senator Sanders is dominating with white men, those under 45 (and sometimes under 65), and Independents. Overall, Senator Sanders is actually a much stronger General Election candidate than Hilary Clinton ever was over Barack Obama.

    Maybe Senator Sanders as US Secretary of Labor, US Senator Cory Booker as Vice President of the United States, and US Senator Elizabeth Warren as United States Treasury Secretary. .

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    United States President-elect Donald Trump. Republicans keep control of the United States Senate and keep control of the United States House of Representatives.

    My only two sources of solace are (1) that I live in California; I'm currently focused on this: http://www.nytimes.com/elections/results/california and (2) the Republicans don't have a filibuster-proof US Senate.

    The US electorate, the US media, Juilan Assange, Russia, and James Comey are responsible for Donald Trump's victory.

    And this: "Hilary Clinton needs to excite liberals, Democrats, and Independents and she currently doesn't. She won by having around 500 Superdelegates to start the race and having the overwhelming support of African-Americans and having the support of Latinos.

    But Senator Sanders is dominating with white men, those under 45 (and sometimes under 65), and Independents. Overall, Senator Sanders is actually a much stronger General Election candidate than Hilary Clinton ever was over Barack Obama." http://www.buffyforums.net/forums/sh...l=1#post708074

    US domestic policy, US foreign policy, the world economy, and the United States Supreme Court are now at grave risk. Republicans gave the precedent of not advising on US President Barack Obama's pick. Will the Senate Democrats allow Donald Trump to put his picks on the Court?

    Is Donald Trump going to put Hilary Clinton in prison? Is he going to use nuclear weapons? The best hope is that Donald Trump was mostly simply campaigning and doesn't actually believe most of the stuff he said.

    Regarding polls: Nate Silver was correct again. The Senate was barely over a 50% of being Democratic and Hilary only had around a 68% chance of winning. And some polls only including Clinton and Trump as choices. Gary Johnson is the new Ralph Nader.

    The NYTimes some months ago or whenever did an article that detailed that if simply uneducated White voters turned out at a significantly higher percentage than in 2012 that Donald Trump would win the election. That is what happened. Sadly, a considerable portion of the US population is uneducated, uniformed, racist, etc. and such people--including white supremacists--have their chosen leader.

    Nuclear war, education funding such as Pell grants, Medicaid funding, global warming, environmental policy, a fascist regime, etc. are all very major concerns.

    EDIT

    http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...p-can-win.html This was posted on 2016, 11-07; therefore, maybe the NYTimes is also responsible for Trump's win.
    Last edited by MikeB; 09-11-16 at 02:06 PM. Reason: added link

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    May I ask what the filibuster is? I've read the term a lot the last few days. Is it the ability to block everything?


    I fear for the minorities and their rights, Brexit already resulted in an increase of hate crimes. Clearly politicians who say a lot of negative things about immigrants and minorities and win, inspire certain groups to show their ugly side. I've little faith in Trump being much more capable and moderate now he is the future POTUS, and Pence is a creep as well. A lot of the 'plans' will probably never be executed because they are impossible or cost too much. But they probably can alter some laws and treaties. And as a woman it's just horribly disappointing to see a qualified and decent woman beaten by a racist who boosts about mistreating women and who has zero political experience. He doesn't even seem to fully understand how everything works. Clinton might not be very charismatic and has her share of scandals (which makes her a weak candidate, not helped by the fact that she is a woman.) but she has proven to be a capable politician in her time as a senator and secretary of state, the fact she didn't make it but Trump did, is just depressing.

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    Some interesting data on the elections:

    http://www.scarymommy.com/almost-hal...idnt-vote-fyi/

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...016-exit-poll/

    - 46.9% of registered voters did not vote, considerably lower turnout than in previous elections
    - Clinton actually got 0.1% more votes than Trump overall, but that of course won't mean a thing due to the US electoral system
    - both main parties lost a considerable number of votes compared to the previous elections - but the Democrats lost more
    - there are also breakdown of votes by gender, ethnicity and other traits, which are pretty telling, and - mostly - not that surprising (I'm most baffled by the 33% of Latino men and 25% of Latino women who voted for Trump)
    You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TimeTravellingBunny View Post
    - there are also breakdown of votes by gender, ethnicity and other traits, which are pretty telling, and - mostly - not that surprising (I'm most baffled by the 33% of Latino men and 25% of Latino women who voted for Trump)
    I heard two explanations for the high percentage of Latino-Americans who voted Trump: 1. religous reasons (they might have voted against Clinton's ideas about abortion and feminism.) and 2. fear for new groups of immigrants who would take their jobs. Especially the last thing is not unheard of, also in Europe. I've heard quite some stories about immigrants (or their children) voting for a Brexit because they hoped the new immgrants would leave/no longer enter the country. And from what I remember they found out that there is no real difference between white Germans and muslim Germans (who once immigrated to German themselves) in the way they percieved the current group of immigrant/refugees from Syria. The same percentages are against it. But it's rather sad that people decide to vote for a man (or woman, it wouldn't suprise me if there were also Jews, LGBT+, black people and Muslims voting for Le Pen in France) who obviously does not care for them, their dignity or their rights.

    I wonder if the low turnout is only the result of neither candidate being liked or also because there were issues with fewer polling places and other issues which stopped people from voting. Personally I cannot imagine not showing up when a figure like Trump might be president even if Hillary was not my favorite candidate. But then I will never understand people who risk the wellbeing of their country and fellow citizens by taking huge risks on election day just to make a point. The British tears and the Google searches on the day after Brexit still make me rage, how dare you to not inform yourself before you vote?

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    It's a really sad time.

    Up until now I always had this belief that good would prevail. Even when things were at their bleakest I always held onto that and I think this is the first time in my life that my faith in humanity has been utterly broken. There's a lot of hatred in the world but in spite of all the horrendous things that have happened I never actually believed someone like Trump could win and it has been utterly surreal and numbing to watch it all unfold.

    I have been reading so many comments all over the internet of people who are too scared to leave their homes because they feel unwelcome in their own country. Everyday I'm seeing people say that they are either being racially abused on the street or they know someone who has been. I read a comment earlier claiming that they went out to dinner with their Mexican boyfriend and a bunch of people drove past screaming that Trump is going to kick him out and chanting "build the wall, build the wall." I just watched a video of woman abusing an Iranian-born US citizen on a train calling her a "terrorist" and a "evil little pig" and that "Trump might deport [her]." I read an article earlier today of a young muslim teacher finding a note in her classroom telling her that she should take off her headscarf and "hang herself with it." Another young muslim college student was attacked by two people on a bus who tried to rip her head scarf off her head. At the University of Pennsylvania every single freshman student who was black was added to a "n***er lynching" chat group and were racially abused and threatened. The KKK are planning a pride march in North Carolina this weekend and are boasting about how they helped Trump win the presidency etc.

    These are just examples that I have read today. It's occurring on a daily basis and it's getting worse. And that's what happens when you elect an unapologetic racist to be the leader of your country. It means you condone this behaviour and encourage it. But it also, sadly, proves that there was always this underbelly of real racism and hatred in America and it just took someone like Trump to bring it all out again. He didn't make anybody become a racist he just made them feel like it was ok to not hide it anymore.

    I think that's what is probably the hardest thing to come to terms with. I said months ago that this election would determine if America still had it's soul and tragically it appears that this is not the case. It's some comfort that Hillary won the popular vote but my opinion of America has been permanently stained. I no longer think of it as a progressive, decent and moral country and I no longer view it as a nation of good decent people. I still believe there are good individuals within that country and I wouldn't tar all the people who voted against Trump with the same brush as those that did, but America as a whole is no longer a country I admire. Right now it looks like a cesspool of hatred and ignorance. It elected a racist, misogynistic, scare-mongering rapist to be it's leader and Champion of the free world. To see him sitting in the White House next to Obama is just sickening.

    And don't even get me started on Pence. This is a man who believes gay people should have electric shock therapy. A man who called same-sex couples a "societal collapse." A man who voted against repealing the military's "Don't ask, Don't tell" policy. A man who signed a bill that would give businesses legal grounds to refuse service and discriminate against gay people on religious grounds. A man who helped cause a HIV outbreak in his own town because he cut funding to Planned Parenthood and forced the closure of multiple clinics. A man who has threatened to put Roe vs Wade in "the ash heap of history where it belongs." A man who voted against Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act which called for equal pay for women three times. He's an evil scumbag.

    I guess I have lived a sheltered life because there are a lot of people in this world who had their faith in humanity and in goodness shattered and a long time ago and with very good reason. But I'm one of them now. It's the first time in my life time when hate and evil has overcome good. I've seen a lot of tragedy in my life but this is the first time I have witnessed a nation that I believed was moral and good unambiguously choose evil. It proves to me that America is racist. It most certainly proves to me that America despises women because no nation that values women could ever chose that sexist, groping, misogynistic pig to be their leader. And it makes me doubt the intelligence of the American people as a whole. To have them elect a man that was utterly out of his depth, who was outclassed in every single debate like it was child's play, who throws temper tantrums like a baby, who rants and raves on Twitter, who refused to even release his tax returns, who publicly admitted that if he were to ever run for office he'd run as a Republican because "Republicans are the dumbest group of voters...", shows how astoundingly stupid a lot of American voters are. All it took is appealing to their hatred and fear and they valued that above all else. Above whether or not he's evil capable of the job. He calls them stupid to their face and they vote for him anyway. I'm not even going to sugar coat it. Why bother?

    We're in dark, dark times. It honestly feels like I'm reading some dystopian future novel and the bad guy actually won.
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    Call me crazy, but I don't think basic notions of human good and evil are at stake in the outcome of an election between two (at best) deeply flawed or (at worst) utterly loathesome people.

    Remember, of any two "I heard about this" accounts, one has probably already been admitted fake before anyone had time to post it (like the young lady who reported having her hijab ripped off her head and is now being prosecuted for it -- filing a false police report is bad under normal circumstances, but doing so during a time people are especially susceptible to provocation and intending to cause it is worse). Speaking from America, we're not actually getting much huddling in our homes to avoid the danger -- unless of course you are a resident or small business owner in for example Portland, that is.

    Saw this facebook post when it was retweeted by American journalist Brit Hume with the accompanying comment "there is wisdom in this"

    "When all the non-racist, non-misogynist, non-homophobic, non-bigoted, everyday ordinary people get so sick of you calling them racists, misogynists, homophobes, and bigots that they go out and vote against your candidate, do you:

    A. Reevalute your personal conduct and strategy of convincing people to share your politics?

    Or

    B. Call them racists, misogynists, homophobes, and bigots and yell at them even more?

    According to most of my timeline, you chose B. And that's exactly why your candidate lost."

    I don't think whoever said that did it to "spike the football"; I can't even tell from the context if the guy voted for Trump. But he's not wrong, the politics of blanket ad hominem are not doing the progressive movement any more favors in the United States.

    So far, the stock market is up, world leaders from Trudeau to Putin and Pena Nieto to Merkel have all expressed willingness to work with Trump; are they, too, collaterally all omni-ists, then?

    I think that, for at least, y'know, transition, and the vaunted first 100 days, Americans and anyone else fascinated by American politics could stand to take at their word the victory speech of Trump, concession speech of Clinton, and congratulation speech of Obama.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KingofCretins View Post
    Call me crazy, but I don't think basic notions of human good and evil are at stake in the outcome of an election between two (at best) deeply flawed or (at worst) utterly loathesome people.
    I'll start by saying that the flaws of Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton are in no way comparable. To quote something brilliant I read today;

    "All our media friends. Thank you for preserving reportorial balance. You balanced Donald Trump’s proposal that the military execute the innocent families of terrorists, against Hillary’s emails. You balanced pot-stirring racist lies about President Obama’s birth, against Hillary’s emails. You balanced a religious test at our borders, torture by our military, jokes about assassination, unfounded claims of a rigged election, boasts about groping and paradoxical threats to sue anyone who confirmed the boasts, against Hillary’s emails. You balanced endorsement of nuclear proliferation, against Hillary’s emails. You balanced tirelessly, indefatigably; you balanced, you balanced, and then you balanced some more. And for that — we thank you."

    It is and always has been utterly preposterous to compare the two or to pretend that they're alike or that they're equally flawed in any way. Hillary is far from perfect but she's no Trump.

    Remember, of any two "I heard about this" accounts, one has probably already been admitted fake before anyone had time to post it (like the young lady who reported having her hijab ripped off her head and is now being prosecuted for it -- filing a false police report is bad under normal circumstances, but doing so during a time people are especially susceptible to provocation and intending to cause it is worse).
    This article makes no mention of her ever filing a police report or being prosecuted in any way;

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...elections.html

    Regardless, I've seen the video of the woman being racially abused with my own eyes. I've seen David Duke congratulate Trump. There has been nothing to suggest that the Ku Klux Klan march is fabricated? The racism against Penn University students has already been proven and is being investigated by authorities as we speak. These are not lies. It's happening.

    I've also seen the hidden footage of Trump rallies and the things that were said there. I've seen people chanting "hang the n***er" about President Obama, the signs calling Hillary a "bitch", the signs implying that Trump needs to rape her into submission. None of that is made up. It is all easily found on the net.

    Speaking from America, we're not actually getting much huddling in our homes to avoid the danger -- unless of course you are a resident or small business owner in for example Portland, that is.
    Well, no, as a straight christian white male living in Florida I wouldn't expect you are having to huddle in your home. But I'm not going to so readily dismiss the hundreds of comments I've seen posted by POC all over the internet talking about how afraid they are to leave their homes and sharing their own personal experiences or the experiences of loved ones. I'm sorry but I am going to take their word over yours. The fact of the matter is that these people now feel unwelcome and unsafe in their own country. Your country elected a blatant, unapologetic racist to be the leader of your nation and what other message could they take away from that other than that they at the very least condone his bigotry?

    "When all the non-racist, non-misogynist, non-homophobic, non-bigoted, everyday ordinary people get so sick of you calling them racists, misogynists, homophobes, and bigots that they go out and vote against your candidate, do you:
    Yeah, no. What the f**k is this logic? "Oh, I'm sick of being called a racist and a bigot so I am going to go vote for a racist and a bigot! That'll show them!" Seriously? What is that even supposed to mean? That people would vote for Trump simply out of spite? That they'd destroy their own country and elect a man they know is a misogynist, and a bigot, and a racist, and unfit to even do the job, just to teach other people a lesson? Yeah, ok. If that really was some people's motivation then they're even stupider than I thought.

    People voted for a bigot because they are bigots. Lets not bother sugar-coating it anymore. Whether they claim to agree with him or not, if the repulsive things he has said and done are something they're able to overlook then sorry but I've got news for them... they're bigots too. Good people can't overlook that shit because it is morally repugnant to them. And only people with so much privilege and who have no idea what it's like to be a minority and be discriminated against would think that what Donald Trump has said and done isn't an absolute deal-breaker.

    So far, the stock market is up, world leaders from Trudeau to Putin and Pena Nieto to Merkel have all expressed willingness to work with Trump; are they, too, collaterally all omni-ists, then?
    They're politicians. And for the record, my Prime Minister just said he'd be willing to try and work with Trump too after blasting him throughout the election process and he has become the laughing stock and joke of the entire nation. He is being torn to shreds from all directions and rightfully so. How pitiful it is to see people compromise their morality.

    I think that, for at least, y'know, transition, and the vaunted first 100 days, Americans and anyone else fascinated by American politics could stand to take at their word the victory speech of Trump, concession speech of Clinton, and congratulation speech of Obama.
    No. Absolutely not. This isn't the time for complacency or for people to just accept it and give in. They elected a repulsive human being who is not only woefully incompetent but who is also a blatant misogynist, racist and sexual predator. I hope the protests continue and I hope they continue to make their voices heard. All the power to them and I hope they burn the place to the ground. This man is unfit for public office and he has brought shame upon your country. Good people should never accept that, "give him a chance", or consider him they're president.
    Last edited by vampmogs; 13-11-16 at 05:55 AM.
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    So for the record, Obama and Hillary Clinton are both utter and total lying sacks of crap for explicitly putting themselves on the "give him a chance" train? Or are there times observers are just supposed to understand that their words mean absolutely nothing but still do not reflect poorly on their character for being lies?

    For myself I've compromised nothing of my political values or my personal ones, even though I find the man distasteful in many respects. I can hardly vote in a way that guarantees policy directions for the country that I consider destructive to our economy and national security because I think the person most likely to prevent that is, personally, a schmuck. But I also remember very clearly that Mitt Romney -- the most boring and innocuous man in the history of politics honestly -- was also the most racist bigoted monster to ever run for the Presidency, for the essential reason that he was the Republican nominee. Joe Biden told a crowd that Romney would put black people "back in chains". I'm not going to engage the slew of passive-aggressive ad hominem there, and I don't really hold it against you, I know a lost election is like an exposed nerve (been there). But defederalizing non-federal functions is not racist; lower tax rates on business to encourage the return of jobs that get chased overseas is not misogynist, and a strong national defense is not homophobic; and I"m not going to vote against my belief in those political aims just so I don't get called names of things I'm not. So while I had viable options, the primary, I used them. Reduced to none, I went with what I had. But seriously, do you look at the ~60 million that voted for him and really conclude that... 50%? 90%? 75% 25%? have just been low key bigots this whole time waiting to bust loose? Neither the raw number or the high vulnerability to the base-rate fallacy that would carry with it give you pause?

    I hope that people who are using the election as an occasion to break the law and deprive people of safety and property... stop... doing that? Sort of just because? That includes the various bits of thuggery or idiotic pranks being reported that are actually occurring.

    One caveat about this whole thing from a political philosophy standpoint -- it's a lot easier, a lot easier, to reconcile voting for a questionable person as President when you think the most important part of government is to limit the amount of power that person can have on you. What excuse has anyone who thinks that the government should have more and broader power to elect deeply flawed people to wield that power?

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    Quote Originally Posted by KingofCretins View Post
    So for the record, Obama and Hillary Clinton are both utter and total lying sacks of crap for explicitly putting themselves on the "give him a chance" train? Or are there times observers are just supposed to understand that their words mean absolutely nothing but still do not reflect poorly on their character for being lies?
    They're cowards. They've spent months telling us that Trump is unfit for office, that he doesn't have the experience or the temperament, that he's built his campaign based on hate and fear and that he's a misogynist and a bigot and they were completely correct. And now we're supposed to "give him a chance?" Why? I know they don't really believe that. You know they don't really believe that. Anybody with a morsel of intelligence knows that they didn't suddenly just flick a switch and believe he might do ok. They despise the man and with good reason. They're cowards for towing the political line and saying what they think they're meant to stay even though Trump is probably the most repulsive person to ever stand for office. I sympathise to a degree that they feel they're doing what they must but, yes, they're lying and, yes, they're cowards.

    For myself I've compromised nothing of my political values or my personal ones, even though I find the man distasteful in many respects. I can hardly vote in a way that guarantees policy directions for the country that I consider destructive to our economy and national security because I think the person most likely to prevent that is, personally, a schmuck.
    He's more than a "schmuck" and you know it. He's a racist. He's a misogynist. He's a fu#king sexual predator.

    How can you say that you've compromised nothing of your personal values if you have voted for a man who boasts of groping women without their consent? A man who has spoken so repulsively of young girls (some as young as 12) in a sexual manner? A man who was, to nobodies surprise, being sued for raping a 13 year old girl? A man who calls women "ugly" and "fat" and "dogs?" A man who said he could never have raped the women who made allegations against him because they weren't pretty enough. A man who called Mexican's "rapists?" A man who said we should murder the innocent families of terrorists? A man who wouldn't lease out his apartments to black people? A man who mocked prisoners of war? A man who made fun of a disabled reporter? A man who has gone on record stating that people like you are "the dumbest voters in the country" and that he "could lie and [you'd] eat it up?" Well, did you prove him right?

    If you've compromised none of your personal values then what the hell were your values in the first place? I'm sorry but what does that say about you? How does it reflect on you that you're willing to vote in a man who has been so disgusting about your fellow Americans? A man who treats your women so repulsively or a man who racially discriminates against your POC? Do you care about them at all? Do they not deserve to be treat with dignity and respect above all else? Think about your wives, sisters, mothers and daughters and how this man treats and talks about them and if you can still honestly say that you've sacrificed none of your personal values to elect him in spite of that then, yeah, I've got news for you, you're sexist.

    What does it say to your nation's young daughters that a man can speak about them in this way and treat them so deplorably and not only will their nation not protect them from that but they'll condone it. That they'll reward it. What does it say to your young POC that his racism doesn't matter? That this man can lead a racially charged vendetta against their president for years, or deny them housing, or accuse them of crimes they have been proven to be innocent of and you'll reward him with the highest honour in your land? Think about that.

    But I also remember very clearly that Mitt Romney -- the most boring and innocuous man in the history of politics honestly -- was also the most racist bigoted monster to ever run for the Presidency, for the essential reason that he was the Republican nominee. Joe Biden told a crowd that Romney would put black people "back in chains". I'm not going to engage the slew of passive-aggressive ad hominem there, and I don't really hold it against you, I know a lost election is like an exposed nerve (been there). But defederalizing non-federal functions is not racist; lower tax rates on business to encourage the return of jobs that get chased overseas is not misogynist, and a strong national defense is not homophobic; and I"m not going to vote against my belief in those political aims just so I don't get called names of things I'm not.
    Are you seriously trying to deny now that Trump isn't a racist or a sexist? Has it really come to that? Is this the hill you really want to die on whilst you try and defend a man from the indefensible just so you can feel better about voting for him? Almost your entire party disowned him and called for him to step down during this election because he was so horrible.

    You talk about a "strong national defense" and yet you've elected a man to be your president who preys on women and sexually assaults them. He's also the same man who incited violence at his own rallies and built his entire platform on hate and prejudice and division. You spend so much time worrying about what other countries and other people will do to you and yet your president elect is a danger to your own people.

    So while I had viable options, the primary, I used them. Reduced to none, I went with what I had. But seriously, do you look at the ~60 million that voted for him and really conclude that... 50%? 90%? 75% 25%? have just been low key bigots this whole time waiting to bust loose?
    Yes. And a lot of them wouldn't even be low key about it. As a nation you have unanimously declared that your women don't matter and that your POC don't matter. It's bigotry plain and simple and it has brought deep shame to your country. I mean, for crying out loud, your political election literally turned into a fight about who was the biggest sexual predator? Like, seriously? This is what it came to?

    hope that people who are using the election as an occasion to break the law and deprive people of safety and property... stop... doing that? Sort of just because? That includes the various bits of thuggery or idiotic pranks being reported that are actually occurring.
    I honestly find it deplorable that you are completely dismissive of all the people protesting who are doing so because they are genuinely horrified by the man you have elected as your president. And I find it equally deplorable that you have gotten to the point where not only are you now calling into question whether he even is a bigot, as if it is something even up for debate, but you have been utterly dismissive and unwilling to admit any case of prejudice against your POC and claim that it's all most likely "made up", and yet you are willing to claim these protestors are just "thugs" inciting violence for the hell of it. I can only hope you're in such deep denial because the reality of what has happened is hard to face but this doesn't sound great. At all.
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    Hmm I agree that voting for a bigot doesn't make you one (unless you voted for him because he is a bigot), but it does say that you don't care about him being a bigot. You helped getting a man in office who hates fellow-citizens for no other reason than the color of their skin, their sexuality, their sex or their gender. You risk their wellbeing and dignity by voting for such a man, not only because of his policies but also because it normalizes this kind of hate once more. And it might be worth it for you, but you should also take responsibility for your choice. If the Trump cabinet is going to **** up the climate even further, take away rights of minorities and women or turns a blind eye to the violence against ethnic minorities, women and the LGBT+ community, you are partly to blame for that. After all, you knew he was like this before you voted for him, you only decided that Clinton was worse.


    About your (KoC) last point, the idea that a president has only political power over people is unlikely to be true. A bigot in the oval office influences the society, just like a feminist and first female president in the white house would influence people. We contruct our reality on what we know and see. A misogynistic bigot being elected to be president makes that kind of behavior bon ton. That is power and it will influence many people all over the globe. So no, voting for a questionable (nice understatement) person should not ever be easier to reconcile with, no matter if you believe in a big or a small government.


    edit:
    Or you know... what Mogs said.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nina View Post
    Hmm I agree that voting for a bigot doesn't make you one (unless you voted for him because he is a bigot), but it does say that you don't care about him being a bigot.
    I guess I just can't really see the distinction. Because, to me, if a person doesn't care about bigotry or doesn't consider it a deal-breaker than it says something about who they are as a person. If racism and misogyny is not a deal-breaker for them then they can't see it as all that bad and if that's the case then they need to seriously reflect on why that is. Being a racist is about ****ing as vile as a person can be and there's a pretty clear line in the sand between those who fight against that prejudice and those that don't. And the latter are very rarely, if ever, not bigots themselves.

    I guess I'm just fed up with pleasantries just for the sake of it. In my eyes this is a pretty black and white issue and I'm tried of pretending it isn't just for the sake of people's feelings. My priority is on the people who are marginalized and who now are living in fear or who are deeply upset because they believe they live in a country that despises them. I'm not at all concerned about all the 'poor' people who have been accused of being bigots... because they endorsed a man who is a bigot. Cry me a river.

    You risk their wellbeing and dignity by voting for such a man, not only because of his policies but also because it normalizes this kind of hate once more.
    Exactly. Forget ISIS, the biggest threat to American people is American people.
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