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Thread: Angel & Faith # 14 Issue Discussion Thread(Full Spoilers)

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    Default Angel & Faith # 14 Issue Discussion Thread(Full Spoilers)

    I'm opening the thread.

    As Stoney mentioned on the news thread,Victor Gischler will be doing a Slayalive Q/A for tomorrows Angel & Faith # 14.

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    I’d say it was a mediocre issue. The main story I had some issues with but there were also some bits laid out for the ongoing story that I did find interesting.

    I didn’t really feel the Illyria defeat in her mind with Fred was earned. That could have been somewhat intentional going by Angel’s remark about Fred saying she has a feeling Illyria let her win in the end. But it still left me feeling like it wasn’t very satisfying in and of itself at this point. It really was just placed on a back burner as the immediate resolution which was a bit of a flupp for me. I also found Koh’s desire to get revenge and kill her swing around to praising Fred’s warrior spirit a bit jarring. Again with the later scene with Nadira I was left feeling like I was to see it as him letting go of his hate somewhat but in the fight scene itself it was just a jump made whilst laid on the floor being beaten to a pulp and it didn’t feel ‘there’, just sudden.

    I also wasn’t at all enamoured with Illyria’s conversation with Angel about their history. Angel didn’t really have much to do with her, it was about facing off before she lost her powers and then really she was with Spike or Wes so Spike not getting mentioned at all in the context of her past seemed odd. I presume it is just because he isn’t ‘in’ Angel’s title but the total absence of a reference, even in Angel's list of those fighting, seemed unnecessary as it was a glaring omission. Also, I’m sorry but I’d never describe NFA as saving mankind together, more like sending it to hell as an ignored consequence of a kamikaze mission for a personal moment of glory that showed a distinct lack of faith in the mission anymore, but hey ho.

    The most interesting things for me were Reese giving a clear flag up that her intentions in magic town aren’t all about the greater good and if she is wanting to exploit data gained on a god that is not likely to be good. That worked well against Nadira seeing magic town as being the sentient Magic’s in a proprietary way. It’s unsettled reaction to Illyria, the potential uncertain control/influence Fred has and the interest of Zane pharmaceuticals in the magic and Illyria’s power were all sparkly with potential. I hope we move forward some now because this felt like the end of Faith’s return and scene setting for coming conflict, I’m really ready for a bit more now.
    Last edited by Stoney; 06-05-15 at 01:52 PM.

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    The Slayalive Q/A with Victor Gischler has started.

    http://slayalive.com/showthread.php/...401#post121401

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    A&F 10.14 bullet points and analysis




    * Illyria to Eldre Koh: “I don’t have comrades in arms. I have worshippers.”

    - So, um, is the Spike-Illyria stuff from AtF not canon? Illyria was Spike’s bodyguard and enforcer. Illyria had her full powers in Hell-LA so her ‘humanity is a weakness’-thing doesn’t apply. And even after Hell-LA, she was friends with Spike and Spike helped her in Illyria: Haunted , which may at least somewhat be canon.


    * Angel to Illyria: “Illyria, we saved mankind together – me, you, Gunn, Lorne, all of us.”

    - Firstly, Angel should have said humankind instead of mankind .

    - Anyway, Angel likely left out Wesley because Angel didn’t want to more remind Illyria that Wesley is dead. And if the Spike-Illyria AtF stuff is actually canon, maybe Angel left out Spike because Angel didn’t want to remind Illyria that Spike abandoned her shortly after Hell-LA. Of course, another reason Angel left Spike out is because of Angel’s ‘competition’ with Spike.


    * Illyria: “You call strength bullying. You call success unfair.”

    - An obvious political statement.


    * Angel’s delusional enough to consider that he could punch Illyria unconscious.

    - So, um, is Illyria’s fight with dragon Cordelia not canon? Or does Angel somehow believe that the Faith, Koh, and he combined are far superior in a fight to dragon Cordelia?


    * It could make sense that Fred is the reason Illyria was simply beating Angel, Faith, and Koh instead of killing them (much like Ben is the reason Glory simply beat on the Scoobies instead of killing them).


    * If the IDW stuff were canon, why would Illyria consider that Angel cared about her? Even in AtS s5, Illyria would at-most consider that Wesley and Spike cared about her and maybe she would include Gunn. But Angel wanted to kill her, couldn’t, and then simply tried to use her as muscle.


    * Illyria says, “I. Am. God.” That’s significant given she doesn’t say she’s “a god”.


    * Um, does it make any sense that Mind-Fred is around as physically strong and around as durable as Mind-Illyria?

    - Maybe it works much like Glory-Ben worked.


    * So, Eldre Koh decided to join Team Angel? Will he be subservient to Angel?

    - Side note: For all those crying out that BtVS S10 is essentially ‘fan service’ for Buffy/Spike, it would make sense that Buffy and Spike have cohabited and are going to ‘marry’.

    Angel’s continuing to be alive makes almost no sense. Yet now Angel has Fred back. Eldre Koh seems to have joined Team Angel. Faith is back and is friends with and friendly with Angel. Nadira wants to be Angel BFF. A&F S9 was mostly simply ‘fan service’ for those who still like Angel and A&F S10 is even more egregious.

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    I feel that Spike's role in Fred/Illyria's life in AtF has ceased to exist, which is a shame, because I liked that story. Anyway, I enjoyed the issue mostly, and liked the idea of a new team for Angel being established. I didn't feel that there was much danger that Fred was going to be defeated by Illyria.. or much danger really, despite the fact that illyria had been unfortunately 'reset.' Its good to see Fred back, so that is a big postive, together with a new team for Angel.I'll be interested to see how the magic town story develops and the issue set in Ireland.

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    So, is Illyria gone forever?

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    Quote Originally Posted by illyriafan View Post
    So, is Illyria gone forever?
    I doubt this plot is over.

    I have my copy of Angel & Faith # 14.The conclusion of "United."

    Overall I liked the issue.I'm sort of torn of the Fred/Illyria thing.This arc has really undone such a powerful part of season 5 of Angel by the resolution here.One the one hand,I can't lie and say it's not great to have Fred back but on the other hand,another dead character is back and one of the most powerful deaths of the verse has been undone IMO.I liked how the Fred/Illyria thing was handled in After The Fall because it didn't really bring Fred back.This runs over that.

    So I'm really torn on this.As great as Fred is in this issue and as a character,I'm not sure it's worth it in the long run.We'll see how this plot continues.

    I do hope word reaches Gunn and Spike.They deserve to know.I'm hoping Angel tells Spike when he crosses over in the next buffy arc.

    I liked how the Koh plot was handled.Also love the Angel and Faith interaction.It truly feels liked they are 'United' again.

    Also some nice teasing intrigued left with Nadira and Zane.

    Looking forward to next issue trip to Irland.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BAF View Post
    The Slayalive Q/A with Victor Gischler has started.

    http://slayalive.com/showthread.php/...401#post121401
    I noticed more than one of the questions was about whether or not other dead characters will potentially be given the chance to be brought in some form, if not fully brought back to life.

    The Buffyverse is in danger of becoming like superhero comics in general, but Marvel in particular, in treating death like a revolving door. The cry of "but it's so unfair to cut off all possible storylines for this or that character by killing them off" is becoming an issue of fans' sense of entitlement. Death happens all the time in real life, whether it's at the end of a long and full life, the very beginning of life, or anywhere in-between. The attitude that writers are obliged to undo death just because it's "not fair" to not pursue any and all possible storylines for a character, whether the writer thinks them up or the audience does, is getting out of hand, IMO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skippcomet View Post
    I noticed more than one of the questions was about whether or not other dead characters will potentially be given the chance to be brought in some form, if not fully brought back to life.

    The Buffyverse is in danger of becoming like superhero comics in general, but Marvel in particular, in treating death like a revolving door. The cry of "but it's so unfair to cut off all possible storylines for this or that character by killing them off" is becoming an issue of fans' sense of entitlement. Death happens all the time in real life, whether it's at the end of a long and full life, the very beginning of life, or anywhere in-between. The attitude that writers are obliged to undo death just because it's "not fair" to not pursue any and all possible storylines for a character, whether the writer thinks them up or the audience does, is getting out of hand, IMO.
    You just pretty much nailed my feelings on this issue about death in the verse.

    Spoilers for Avengers:Age Of Ultron

    Spoiler:
    Qucksilver is killed in the film and I was very heartened to hear a report from a Keven Feige speaking event yesterday where he said,Quciksilver will not be brought back and why it's important for him to stay dead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BAF View Post
    You just pretty much nailed my feelings on this issue about death in the verse.

    Spoilers for Avengers:Age Of Ultron

    Spoiler:
    Qucksilver is killed in the film and I was very heartened to hear a report from a Keven Feige speaking event yesterday where he said,Quciksilver will not be brought back and why it's important for him to stay dead.
    Spoiler:
    Although I haven't seen it yet, I'd already spoiled myself about Quicksilver's death...and already I've seen at least two or three attempts by fans to organize a protest or petition demanding that he be either brought back from the dead or worse, retroactively revealed to have secretly survived or not really died. Hell, one of those fans casually tossed off a remark that "off course" he'll be brought back in time to participate in the Thanos/Infinity Gauntlet movie. As if, when that storyline was originally done in the comics, Quicksilver was so important to the resolution. No, wait, I'm pretty sure he was one of the massive wave of initial casualties when Thanos used the Gauntlet to wish half of all life in the universe out of existence. (All restored to live by the end of it, of course.

    I understand that Quicksilver's got a history in the comics going all the way back to the 60's when almost all these characters were created, and he's got his fans...but in the MCU, he's almost brand-new to over 90 percent of the audience. In terms of this iteration of the character, he's not all-important enough that he MUST be brought back.


    I've seen a lot of characters die or be killed off in superhero comics. Some characters, like Jesse in Season One, are made to be killed off; others are killed because the writer wants cannon fodder for his story. Some are killed because the creators think there's nowhere else to go or anything left to do with the character; some are killed because of behind the scenes editorial reasons that have little to nothing to do with storytelling; some are killed as part of a larger picture or message the writer is telling; some die because they're symbolic deaths or because they're considered "lame" or "redundant" characters or because of how their deaths will affect others. There's nearly as many reasons for character deaths as there are character deaths, and they're not always what we might consider "good" reasons. But the difference between comics-first characters dying and Buffyverse characters dying, IMO, is that many if not all the people involved in creating Buffyverse characters, be they the writers or directors or even the actors, are usually the ones involved in the decision to kill them off. If they did their jobs right, they made the audience (or at least some of the audience) care about those characters before they died. Their deaths should affect the audience. But then the audience, or part of it, thinks that because they care about the characters, the writers owe them. "Kill this character? No, you bring them back and do more with them because I'm not ready to let them go. It's all about what I want, not what's best for the story or the character or anything else" Hell, I've lost count of how many upset Anya fans I've come across who are genuinely shocked to find out, years after the fact, that one reason Anya was killed off was because Emma Caulfield was ready to leave and not come back; they usually assume she was just as upset as they were that Anya died.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skippcomet View Post
    Spoiler:
    Although I haven't seen it yet, I'd already spoiled myself about Quicksilver's death...and already I've seen at least two or three attempts by fans to organize a protest or petition demanding that he be either brought back from the dead or worse, retroactively revealed to have secretly survived or not really died. Hell, one of those fans casually tossed off a remark that "off course" he'll be brought back in time to participate in the Thanos/Infinity Gauntlet movie. As if, when that storyline was originally done in the comics, Quicksilver was so important to the resolution. No, wait, I'm pretty sure he was one of the massive wave of initial casualties when Thanos used the Gauntlet to wish half of all life in the universe out of existence. (All restored to live by the end of it, of course.

    I understand that Quicksilver's got a history in the comics going all the way back to the 60's when almost all these characters were created, and he's got his fans...but in the MCU, he's almost brand-new to over 90 percent of the audience. In terms of this iteration of the character, he's not all-important enough that he MUST be brought back.
    Spoiler:
    The unusual thing with Quciksilver is that the rights are shared with FOX and a different version of the character is alive and well in the X-Men film series and will be back in X-Men:Apocalypse next summer.So hardcore fans get to reap the benefits of the rights issue there.This is a very unusual situation but the fact is that even though one version of the character is dead in the MCU,you still got another version of the character alive and well at FOX in the X-Men.


    I've seen a lot of characters die or be killed off in superhero comics. Some characters, like Jesse in Season One, are made to be killed off; others are killed because the writer wants cannon fodder for his story. Some are killed because the creators think there's nowhere else to go or anything left to do with the character; some are killed because of behind the scenes editorial reasons that have little to nothing to do with storytelling; some are killed as part of a larger picture or message the writer is telling; some die because they're symbolic deaths or because they're considered "lame" or "redundant" characters or because of how their deaths will affect others. There's nearly as many reasons for character deaths as there are character deaths, and they're not always what we might consider "good" reasons. But the difference between comics-first characters dying and Buffyverse characters dying, IMO, is that many if not all the people involved in creating Buffyverse characters, be they the writers or directors or even the actors, are usually the ones involved in the decision to kill them off. If they did their jobs right, they made the audience (or at least some of the audience) care about those characters before they died. Their deaths should affect the audience. But then the audience, or part of it, thinks that because they care about the characters, the writers owe them. "Kill this character? No, you bring them back and do more with them because I'm not ready to let them go. It's all about what I want, not what's best for the story or the character or anything else" Hell, I've lost count of how many upset Anya fans I've come across who are genuinely shocked to find out, years after the fact, that one reason Anya was killed off was because Emma Caulfield was ready to leave and not come back; they usually assume she was just as upset as they were that Anya died.
    I'm always fearful about characters like Doyle,Tara or Cordy being brought back.I thought Cordy's brief return in After The Fall was a big mistake and pointless really.I was really happy how the actually handled this question in the Willow one-shot during season 8 in regards to Tara.

    Right now in Buffy we got Giles back and I'm still split on if this was a good move.On the one hand,I loved Angel & Faith last season and thought the return was earned in a way by being difficult to achive and having him back but as a child.But I'm still not sure if it should of been done at all since in the end it still makes death just another thing that can be beat.Maybe if so many other characters haven't been brought back,this wouldn't be a issue for me.As painful as it was,I'm very glad Jenny Calender was never brought back.

    With Anya,still waiting to see how that plays out but at this point,I don't think she's really being brought back and is a part of Xander's mind.That could play out differently and once again,I'm not going to be thrilled if Anya really returns and another death is undone.

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